Faster! Stronger! Less Human!

from the says-who? dept

Salon is running a review of a book by Bill McKibben called Enough: Staying Human in an Engineered Age. The books sounds like a typical neo-luddite tract complaining about what will happen if scientists do what they're trying to do. There have been a lot more books like this one lately, and they're beginning to get tiresome. The arguments don't even seem that interesting any more. His biggest complaint seems to be that genetically engineered children will start acting like "clones" and won't be individual enough to really be human. I'm not sure where he's getting his info from, but there's a very large part of environmental factors that go into what makes a person who they are - and that doesn't change if their genes are any different. He also points out that if a child is genetically bred to be a good musician, they'll never feel like they made it on their own when they get into Julliard. Say what? Does this mean that the child of two virtuoso musicians won't feel the same satisfaction for getting into Julliard? After all, they were also "genetically bred" by having two parents who were accomplished musicians. Genetic breeding occurs any time two people combine their genes to create a child anyway.
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  • identicon
    dorpus, 30 Apr 2003 @ 2:19am

    What about obsolescence of talent?

    Job opportunities for Julliard graduates or MFA holders are, oh, zero? Recorded music already devastated the careers of classical musicians, and in an era of file sharing, they are worthless.

    In an era of cars thumping rap music, cell phones going off everywhere, trucks roaring their engine brakes at 3am, having a delicate sense of hearing is a liability, not an asset.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    patrick, 30 Apr 2003 @ 12:21pm

    nature vs nurture

    I believe genetics actually has far more impact than any of us would like to admit. No one would argue that genetics plays a dominant role in what we might term "physical" or athletic ability. The controversy seems to arise when dealing with mental faculties--primarily because of the social ramifications. If we can blame a person's lack of intelligence on their environment, we aren't forced to admit that people are not actually created equal (I don't believe the 'founding fathers' meant this the way we interpret it today anyway--only that all are equal under the law and with equal rights). I'm not saying environment doesn't play a role, but I would argue the principle effect is in causing genetic potential not to be realized. It seems inherently obvious to me that not all people have the ability to be theoretical physicists, regardless of the environment in which they were raised. Is this such a stretch? I would even argue that the athletic abilities we accept as genetically determined are due in large part to mental faculties as well--motor skills and coordination. Being tall doesn't make one NBA material, and there are many young people who grow up playing basketball every free minute; not all of them develop the skills and ability necessary to play professionally--the coordination involved is not only the result of practice/repetition. The more we know about ourselves, the more difficult it becomes to make a clear delineation between the psychological and the physiological.

    link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Saygin?, 30 Apr 2003 @ 12:56pm

      Re: nature vs nurture

      I want to thank Patrick for providing me insight into the genetics/ingelligence/public policy debate. I had no idea that some people took the phrase "created equal" to mean of equal intelligence. But now that he has pointed it out, it does explain why this is such a touchy subject for some.

      Given the context in which I learned of the Declaration of Independence, it seemed obvious that this was a philisophical statement on a form of government.

      Thanks for opening my eyes to the wide diversity of understanding in the world. Who'd of thunk it? "Created equal" means we all have the same smarts? Astounding what you can miss because you actually GOT the point of the history lesson.

      link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      dorpus, 30 Apr 2003 @ 1:07pm

      Re: nature vs nurture

      Depends on the benefit. The world has a chronic oversupply of "brilliant" theoretical physicists who cannot get jobs and serve no productive purpose. In fact, quite a few of them resort to making a living by writing metaphysical hokum to please the masses (intelligent design, etc.), so their overall effect on the world is harmful. The founder of neo-nazi group National Alliance (William Pierce) was a professor of physics.

      When Jews dominated basketball in the 1920s, sports commentators of the time used to say that Jews have a genetic advantage in the sport because of their shrewdness, hustle, and teamwork. How many Jews are in the NBA today? So it is with black athletes; the NBA is increasingly recuiting European athletes over African-Americans who are growing more middle class and tame. There are plenty of sports (bicycling, juggling, skiing, gymnastics, power lifting) where there should be more African champions if their genes are really better. But there are almost no African athletes in those sports. The economic argument holds no water for juggling or gymnastics; basketball is far more expensive.

      It could be that much of "intelligence" is a cultural phenomenon based on competition, motivation, and nurture.




      link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Patrick, 30 Apr 2003 @ 1:49pm

        Re: nature vs nurture

        I seem to have gotten us off on a tangent... I was responding to the original poster's assertion that genetic engineering would not have a significant impact.

        It's not that I believe environment has no influence; however, I think the environment can only bring forth or repress attributes present within a genetically established framework.

        link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Mike (profile), 30 Apr 2003 @ 2:11pm

          Re: nature vs nurture

          I seem to have gotten us off on a tangent... I was responding to the original poster's assertion that genetic engineering would not have a significant impact.

          It's not that I believe environment has no influence; however, I think the environment can only bring forth or repress attributes present within a genetically established framework.


          I think you misread my statements as well. I agree that environment helps bring forth or repress attributes within a genetically established framework - though, in general, I believe that framework is pretty wide.

          My point is just that the idea that "genetically engineered" kids wouldn't feel comfortable with their achievements is ridiculous. They're still achieving them.

          link to this | view in chronology ]


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