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• 

  dorpus, 15 Nov 2003 @ 1:04am

  
  

  Human Resource Allocation

  This is going by stereotypes, but traditionally, students who are smart but antisocial go into computer science -- the types who enjoy telling you about some vicious prank they commited on someone, who like to treat everyone else like idiots. Biological sciences have accepted less smart people who make a bigger deal out of ethics, whose mission in life is to save the starving baby whales of the Amazon rainforest.
  
  However, there is convergence going on at various levels -- as computers assume more important roles throughout society, ethical requirements are going up. People who enjoy vicious pranks should not be allowed to administer systems. The frontier of biological science increasingly involves finding advanced mathematical patterns, requiring people good at math. The economic realities of health care increasingly require health professionals who are good at pretending to be ethical but will otherwise mistreat patients as required.
  
  Over the past decade, medical/nursing schools have put a renewed emphasis on ethics, but I suspect the pendulum is ready to swing the other day. Save-the-starving-babies types are miserable under the current system. In coming years, we may see more squishy computer science majors wearing red ribbon lapels, and more doctors/nurses who laugh at AIDS patients.
  

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• 

  Kevin, 15 Nov 2003 @ 1:38pm

  
  

  No Subject Given

  I would never hire a comp sci graduate. I've found them to be terrible programmers. They learn some theory which they will eventually forget but comp sci doesnt teach somebody how to program. Programming is a craft that you are either good at or not. If I was looking for a coder and a MIT graduate and a bus driver came to me looking for a job. I'd look closely at the bus drivers code, see if he taught himself how to program, make sure he had a passion for programming. Then I'd hire him over the MIT guy because I know the busdriver has already proven himself as somebody who can pick up the latest skills. If I had posted this on slashdot I'd be flamed till I was crispy because all those nerds dont want to hear the truth.

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  • 

    dorpus, 15 Nov 2003 @ 2:21pm

    
    

    Re: No Subject Given

    That does get into another issue of the value of degrees from prestigious schools. A lot of people are hostile against such graduates, and co-workers from lesser schools can gang up against a graduate of better school to "prove" he's stupid.
    
    The training at good schools emphasizes becoming a good intellectual over becoming a good professional, so that should also be considereed when choosing schools. Do you want to spend most of your time solving weird abstract problems, or do you want learn how to solve straightforward real-world problems?
    
    
    

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    • 

      Anonymous Coward, 15 Nov 2003 @ 10:16pm

      
      

      Re: No Subject Given

      Funny you should mention this...
      
      I went to a "good school" (read top 15 comp-sci school at the time) and dropped out ~10 credits shy of graduating.
      
      I then went to an absolute bottom of the barel school (one step above a degree mill), transfered my credit over and graduated practicaly on that alone (hey, it was the *only* school with a comp-sci program in my geographic area at the time).
      
      My impression was that the instructors were far more involved and dedicated at the bottom rung school.... because it was their job... their livelyhood and because they weren't distracted to university politics, publishing or parishing and babysitting board upper middle class children who's only post secondary education life option was college.
      
      Some of the shittiest instructors I had in the top-of-the-line school had undergraduate and PhD degrees from places like Harvard and Yale and MIT. Beyond fail, every last one of these folks lacked the ability to actually teach and some could not even run a class (thank god for all the Indian TAs).
      
      So, keep in mind that it might not be the ungratefulls ganging up againt you... it might be that you completely lack any real work ethic and that your prestigious educations does not automatically entitle you to the respect and admiration of your peers... of course, if you haven't learned how to make friends and influence people, you've probably missed out on one of the bigger lessons in life the isn't necessarily taught in school.

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      • 

        dorpus, 16 Nov 2003 @ 12:17am

        
        

        Re: No Subject Given

        I then went to an absolute bottom of the barel school
        
        barrel?
        
        transfered my credit over and graduated
        
        transferred?
        
        practicaly on that alone
        
        practically?
        
        their livelyhood
        
        livelihood?
        
        distracted to university politics
        
        distracted by?
        
        publishing or parishing
        
        publishing or perishing?
        
        board upper middle class children who's only post secondary education life option was college.
        
        bored upper middle class children whose only option in life after high school was college?
        
        like Harvard and Yale and MIT
        
        like Harvard, Yale, and MIT?
        
        Beyond fail,
        
        Without fail? Or maybe invariably?
        
        ungratefulls
        
        ingrates?
        
        it might be that you completely lack any real work ethic and that your prestigious educations does not automatically entitle you
        
        It might be that you lack a work ethic; your prestigious educations do not automatically entitle you?
        
        if you haven't learned how to make friends and influence people, you've probably missed out on one of the bigger lessons in life the isn't necessarily taught in school.
        
        Well as a matter of fact, learning to write well does lead to earning respect and influence among influential people. People in the higher echelons of society have to endure a lot of illiterate drivel written by self-righteous uneducated people who think they are "better" than college graduates.
        
        It's also true that outside of school, most people go berserk when you correct their writing, so you can earn their hatred by doing so. In this case, the power of ignorance may prevail.
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        

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        • 

          Anonymous Coward, 16 Nov 2003 @ 3:09am

          
          

          Re: No Subject Given

          When techdirt get a spell checker, I'll worry about it. Thanks for checking though...

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        • 

          Anonymous Coward, 16 Nov 2003 @ 1:49pm

          
          

          Re: No Subject Given

          I love when the moron squad assumes everyones first language is english.

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  • 

    Tony Lawrence, 15 Nov 2003 @ 3:16pm

    
    

    Re: No Subject Given

    There was a company in Florida years ago that wouldn't hire you as a programmer if you had attended college. If I remember correctly, their preference was for high school dropouts - of course, the kind who drop out because of boredom and frustration, not the ones who are just too dumb.
    
    But in spite of being a drop-out myself, and being against the near universal conception that "self educated" is an oxymoron, I don't necessarily agree that you can't teach programming. People learn in different ways: one of my big problems with school was that I can't stand the slow pace of oral teaching. I can read unusually quickly, and want to learn that way. For me, oral lectures are torture, but for others (apparently for most people), this helps them learn. Apparently, most people just can't learn from books alone, and perhaps also lack the discipline to teach themselves.
    
    I do agree that a degree in itself is meaningless in terms of real ability, and that good coders are few and far between.
    
    I've only ever seen one help wanted ad that acknowledged the possibility that a person might not need formal education. This is from 1990:
    
    SOFTWARE DEVELOPER
    
    Engineering software company has an equity-track opening for a mature individual capable of phasing in as the principle [sic] software developer of a successful product.
    
    Candidates must have demonstrated success in software development, and be familiar with both Windows and the Macintosh system.
    
    A Ph.D and at least 2 years of experience as an R&D engineer or scientist is preferred: alternatively, candidate may be a genius.
    
    Please send resume and salary history to:
    ECHIP, Inc.
    Hockessin DE 19707
    
    
    
    
    I wonder if they filled the position?
    
    
    

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    • 

      aNonMooseCowherd, 15 Nov 2003 @ 8:23pm

      
      

      college

      There was a company in Florida years ago that wouldn't hire you as a programmer if you had attended college.

      Sounds like the hiring manager was not too bright and couldn't stand the idea of hiring someone smarter who might make him/her look bad.

      If I remember correctly, their preference was for high school dropouts - of course, the kind who drop out because of boredom and frustration

      They probably got lots of people who wrote code that more or less worked but was unmaintainable by anyone else.

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    • 

      dorpus, 15 Nov 2003 @ 9:15pm

      
      

      Re: No Subject Given

      People learn in different ways: one of my big problems with school was that I can't stand the slow pace of oral teaching. I can read unusually quickly, and want to learn that way. For me, oral lectures are torture, but for others (apparently for most people), this helps them learn. Apparently, most people just can't learn from books alone, and perhaps also lack the discipline to teach themselves.
      
      
      Actually, the better schools have oral lectures that proceed very quickly. They will take it for granted that you will have learned tangential material from reading on your own. If you didn't do well in school, you might have gotten stuck in slow courses.
      
      
      

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      • 

        Tony Lawrence, 17 Nov 2003 @ 11:17am

        
        

        Re: No Subject Given

        "the better schools have oral lectures that proceed very quickly"
        
        You cannot possibly talk fast enough to hold my attention.
        
        I can "study" at 1,000 wpm. No one can even come close to talking that fast.
        
        I wasn't stuck in slow courses; in fact I was in G&T from fifth grade right up until the day I quit.
        
        I have a great love of learning, but school (for me) was horrible, horrible torture. Too slow, boring, plodding through material I'd already read, and, worse, often the instructors had imperfect knowledge of what they were teaching.
        
        
        
        

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        • 

          dorpus, 17 Nov 2003 @ 4:01pm

          
          

          Re: No Subject Given

          I have a great love of learning, but school (for me) was horrible, horrible torture. Too slow, boring, plodding through material I'd already read, and, worse, often the instructors had imperfect knowledge of what they were teaching.
          
          I'd be interested in seeing how you fare at some good schools where they take it for granted that you already understand the textbook, so the lecture zips through materials not covered in the text. Oh, but that's right, you dropped out, so you can't get into a good school now.
          

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          • 

            dorpus, 17 Nov 2003 @ 4:25pm

            
            

            Re: No Subject Given

            Here's another idea for you: try taking an anatomy class. Unless you are one of those Rain Man types who memorizes phone books for fun, there is no way you can be expected to memorize everything in the textbook. The teacher will likely mention other facts not covered in the text, e.g. "the clavicle is last bone in the body that stops growing."
            

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            • 

              Tony Lawrence, 18 Nov 2003 @ 4:22am

              
              

              Re: No Subject Given

              "The teacher will likely mention other facts not covered in the text"
              
              There's an assumption there that only one text will be read.
              
              Those of us who are autodidactic don't learn from one source. We read multiple treatments. Sure, one anatomy text may not mention a particular fact, but another will. And why is it any easier to remember what was said vs. what is read?
              
              I prefer reading. When someone is speaking, my mind will race off in some direction because of something they said. With a book, I can put it down, go research the thing that piqued my interest, and come back to the book which, unlike a speaker, is waiting patiently.
              
              
              The Internet makes this a lot easier than it used to be. When I need to learn something new, I can find hundreds of different viewpoints from all kinds of people. I can explore all sorts of related subjects quickly and easily.
              
              I am always amazed by the snobbery that assumes that only a "traditional" education is of value. It may very well be true that for most people that does produce the best results, but we are all different, and that is, I think, one of the greatest failures of traditional education.
              
              

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          • 

            Tony Lawrence, 18 Nov 2003 @ 4:30am

            
            

            Re: No Subject Given

            " Oh, but that's right, you dropped out, so you can't get into a good school now."
            
            Well, you are probably wrong about that. Schools do take life experience into account, and I have 40 years of that since high school.
            
            But I wouldn't want to. Everything I want to learn, I can learn without a school to teach it to me. The internet makes it much more easy than it used to be, and the library is just down the street. Why do I need to listen to someone who may not even have read as much as I will? To get their agreement that I understand the subject? I know better than they ever will how well I understand. To get a job? I work for myself.
            To get the respect of people who don't think anyone without a degree is worth anything? Don't need it :-)
            
            
            
            

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  • 

    Anonymous Coward, 15 Nov 2003 @ 9:49pm

    
    

    Re: No Subject Given

    > [...] I'd look closely at the bus drivers code, [...]< br>
    ...to see if I am able to judge it "good". After all, I'm a manager in charge of hiring the programmers theirfore, erg sum, I should be able to write good code and identify it when I see it.
    
    Jesus... no wonder you have time to post to techdirt.

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  • 

    Carlos, 17 Nov 2003 @ 9:59am

    
    

    Re: No Subject Given

    HI.I read your post with some interest.I'm transfering to a university and im going to major in computer science and minor in electronics.I know what you mean, a computer science degree doesnt mean your a good programmer. It takes experience and dedication.I understand that and that why im teaching myself how to program really well. Though I find it shortsighted that you just wont hire CS majors,I mean sophisticated programming entails good math skills.And you learn that at a university.There are competent CS majors and incompetent onces,just like not every engineering major is good at what he does.I think your in the miniority though,because most job posting require a CS or engineering degree.In the end it depends on what the hiring manager wants and his knowledge of the situation or his ignorance.

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• 

  Anonymous Coward, 15 Nov 2003 @ 10:02pm

  
  

  I think we can all pretty much acknwledge the fact

  ...highschool and to an even larger degree college were both a complete waste of time (with college being especially egregious in that money was wasted in addition to time). ...but hey every society has to have their post educational period where people can be slack in the prime of their life. Still, some of the best programmers who I have ever come across never graduated College; then again, some of them did go on to graduate and are now finding their jobs being replaced by Indian wage slaves (who probably went to the same schools, took the same classes and gradutated with the same degree).
  
  In the long run I now realized who was the smarter (at understanding the meta-game) of the bunch and it ain't the ones with the degrees.
  
  Which brings me to an intersting question: is it smarter to try to compete with Indian wage slaves, or develope Open Source and become an independant implementer of Open Source systems? As far as I'm concerned GNU had it right from the start and will be the salviation of the North American IT worker.

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• 

  David, 16 Nov 2003 @ 7:54am

  
  

  CIS not CS

  If you read the article carefully, it's not talking about CS, it's talking about CIS, which is usually in the business school, rather than engineering. There's a big difference in the type of people who apply to CS vs CIS/MIS. I would expect CIS/MIS to follow the dot-com bubble much more closely than CS.

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• 

  Bill, 23 Jul 2006 @ 3:07pm

  
  

  I find that technology progresses so rapidly that I have to attend classes to stay current. After working all day (I am a software engineer) there is NO WAY I would keep up without taking classes. So while I'm at it I earn degrees.
  
  Without the accountability of getting grades I would not curl up every night with an operating systems book or learn a computer language other than the one I was working in. It's just a shortcoming of mine I suppose.

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