You Really Don't Need Solitaire In 3-D
from the inflated-expectations dept
An exec from Epic Games, makers of the Unreal series of PC games, says that Intel is killing the PC games business by pushing the use of integrated graphics processors rather than more powerful standalone video cards. He adds that gamers are flocking to consoles instead, and that developers are thinking of abandoning PCs completely. This is a pretty bizarre comment on several levels, not the least of which that general consumers don't really seem to care about getting machines with more graphical power, while those that do aren't short of options. The bigger issue, though, is his apparent belief that the only way to make better games is with more powerful machines, that more detailed graphics will always win out over better gameplay or new gaming concepts. There's a huge market of consumers that aren't necessarily interested in more realistic first-person shooters or more detailed sports games, and that don't need better graphics cards -- but who like to play games. Perhaps that explains some of the appeal of Frogger on an Xbox.
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but i need solitaire !!
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Re: but i need solitaire !!
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Re: but i need solitaire !!
That said, there are games that are better suited for both types of setups. Game makes are going to match demand with supply...if people aren't buying PC games, then they are going to stop making them (or at least giving this big dev $$$) and concentrate where people are buying games...consoles.
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Re: Console sk1llz
Of course, when it gets old and there are a billion emulators for it, I'll just run it on my PC. But untill then, Wii all the way!!
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A possible exception would be Gears of War which is heavily hyped, but it isn't released yet so who knows?
When most of the popular games end with a number as in 'we made this 10 years ago 3' and the rest are rehashes from 20 years ago ported to new hardware it is pretty plain that innovation is dead, for now.
All this simply paves the way for the next blockbuster which which will be copied for decades.
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cuz it does it so well.
-- Why not put all that $$$ into your PC and get a decent video card --
Because the video card costs as much as a console and will need replacing in 6-12 months. The PC is also much more prone to conflicts between all that newly replaced hardware.
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Re:
For state of the art, PC's are already there, consoles were made on last years technology. 3 Years from now, consoles will still be using last years technology.
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So for all who says console do not need to be upgraded (as often) to play the latest games, while PC needs to upgrade vid card quite often to play the latest games isn't all that valid IMO.
and I agree, integrated video is for non-gamers who dont require a powerful video card. You can do so much without a good vid card. I know a lot of people who dont know much bout computers, and only use em for IM, homework, email, surfing the net etc.
before you buy your computer, especially buying a cheap (outdated) one you should learn of it's upgrade capability. I know this analogy is a bit of a stretch, but consider buying a Super Nintendo nowadays for mayb only $10, do you think it can play the gamecube games? or there'll still b new games coming out? I kno $10 is nothing and sum ppl would just throw it away, but my point is to do your research before buying something u may regret getting.
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Re:
When did microsoft release the xbox? early 2002 I believe? Then the X-Box 360 Late last year making the lifespan 4 years?
So let me get this straight because ITS SO HARD TO NOTICE, I paid _LESS_ for a video card to play games for the last 3 years than an X-Box owner paid for his console for the last 4 years? And I got most the games I wanted BEFORE the console users? oh shit you got owned.
Your arguement holds NO water.
The only reason to reason to pick a console (when you put aside learning curves and other human factors like omg does it come in pink?) is the GAMES PERIOD
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Switched from PC to Consoles
Then I bought one. Guess what PC Games, my xbox takes 10 seconds to Boot up, I NEVER have to do a windows update, and it plays the lastest games for 3-5 years WITHOUT having to buy a new graphics card or eventually by a new pc because 1 Ghz isnt enought anymore. PCs are a waste of time and money for gaming.
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Real Men Don't play Video Games
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Re: Real Men Don't play Video Games
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Re: Real Men Don't play Video Games (#8)
It seems to me that "Real Man" needs to change his handle to "Flame-Baiting Douchebag".
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a possible solution ?????
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Re: a possible solution ?????
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Real Men Aren't Completely Narrow Minded Assholes
There are teams of adults that do nothing but make and play games, and make as much or more money than a high percentage of our population. And there are ENTIRE SOCIAL GROUPS that only are social because of the GAMES THEY ALL ENJOY.
Just because your life sucks, does not mean that everyone elses does!
Thanks for your time.
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Games
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One point is true
The Epic guys point is for people that are not geeky enough to know about all this stuff before they buy this is putting off the general consumer from buying a pc and its a hell of a lot easier to go out and buy an Xbox and have no trouble playing the games and worry about upgrading.
Also its far far easier for a company to write a game for one piece of hardware alone and not all the infinite number of PC configurations out there on the market despite what DirectX is supposed to do. and then have to release patch after patch for their software after new hardware appears.
If youre talking on a games level then an Xbox360 is far cheaper than buying the latest gaming Pc, and im sorry but i think both platforms are better at some games than others. PC obviously is a better machine for FPS and RTS games in my exprerience, and a console in all the years ive owned both is far far better at racing games and sports titles if not for the control but for the social aspect too.
I have to agree and say that Intel should stick to what they do best and thats making Cpu's, they really are killing the PC games market. Leave Gpu's to the big boys of ATI and Nvidia.
As for the second point about bigger and better graphics, well thats just ridiculous, working at Epic mustve gone to his head..
So its a sloow day at work and im bored
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Re: One point is true
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Re: Re: One point is true
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#8 is a lamo
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Solitare in 3D
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Yes and no....
But there's a lot of truth to this. From a development standpoint, it's difficult to make money without a strategy that takes into account the already shrinking marketplace, and consumer expectations.
Companies try to work on existing game engines, whether in-house or external, because the fewer engines you need to support, the less expensive it is.
Ray is correct:
"Success of games does not rely on super graphics. Some of the most enjoyable, addictive and playable games were some on my father's Apple II with a green screen."
But a company isn't going to make a ton of money doing just those kinds of games. Stores don't see them as "must stock" unless you've already got a huge hit with it, and too many people expect flashier things.
Now, to have to support ATI and its "we know about that, but we're not planning to fix it" mentality on its older cards, and also slower integrated solutions...QA hell. Not just the configuration testing, but the fixes that have to be done to get around deficiencies, and the changes in the game that have to be made to accommodate those lower systems.
Can't go with just higher systems...you cut out too much of your audience.
People say they buy computers for games, but they're not buying enough of them to keep the same amount of people in business. The smaller companies can always take advantage of this situation, but there will be fewer and fewer of them, and they'll be at risk also. With the console market the way it is, a developer would have to be foolish to not be leaning that way...right now the cost to enter the market is huge, but Xbox live and similar services are increasingly cheaper to develop for and easier to use. And the appeal of using a comfortable joystick in the living room with a game you KNOW won't have a conflict with your setup is increasing to the people who are NOT us...and to a lot of us also.
I'm not saying the solution is to have huge multi-monitor 2000 fps cards in every computer. But there *IS* a lot of truth to what that Epic guy is saying. Too much. One of the reason why people go to consoles is because they buy a "new computer," which is affordable, has crappy graphic capabilities, doesn't work with the new games and disappoints them or their children. That's where we're going to see a lot of that huge market for the non half-life crowd....
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Re: Yes and no....
Then he should have complained 13 years ago, it's the buyers fault for not buying the right equipment. There are varying levels of computers out there. For example, if I wanted to run the 1/4 mile fast I wouldn't buy a Yugo, I'd buy something fast. If I bought the Yugo and then 6 months later can't figure out why it can't handle my higher expectations of performance who is at fault, the maker of the Yugo or me, for not buying a vehicle capable of the performance I expect. A computer can't be all things to all people when you bought it for next to nothing. People are ignorant and or just plain stupid if they expect a computer that cost 500 or 700 bucks to handle higher level games. The apologists need to knock it off, if people can't buy a computer that can handle the game then blame the person, not Epic or Intel or even the PC maker. The right tool for the job, don't expect the job to evolve around the tool.
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Re: Re: Yes and no....
OK...that's great. And while we're at it, let's get rid of expensive ambulances and hospitals, and focus on accident prevention. Or, we can both be real.
YES, the right tool for the right job. That's how you and I buy your computer. Now, when the market to the average consumer is understood as "bells and whistles" are the differences in price from one machine to the next, people don't understand or have the foresight to know what they will and won't run.
These integrated solutions are extremely hobbled, and they get dated very quickly. Add to that a couple of installs that don't go well, and when it comes game time, why NOT go to the console.
If you wanted to run the 1/4 mile fast, you wouldn't buy a Yugo. But if the market were such that so many of the cars out there were Yugos or similar performance, and that's good enough for what you THINK you're going to do with it, you're going to do what you can with it and find other solutions for your other needs...right tool for the right job. But parts and roadmakers might find themselves looking at what is wrong with the market, and how they could end up out of business with others, and how that MIGHT not be good for the whole market in the long run, especially if that car manufacturer were manufacturing other parts of the process, like the lights, or the roads.
Regardless....it's a crappy analogy.
To be literal, you can bitch about people who don't know better, and you can bitch about people who could have complained 13 years ago in a different market, as if that would do any good.
But that doesn't mean that it's not affecting the market and helping drive people to consoles, which is the point. It's not about people who want their computers to do everything...they'll find another solution...the consoles and other devices. Nothing to do with apologizing, nothing to do with faults. Those people will be OK with things that don't run higher level apps on their computer.
But as the capable computers diminish, so do the apps and the companies that take advantage of them.
That's the reality and the point of it all, Dr. McCoy, so get off your high horse and discuss the topic at hand.
People are ignorant and or just plain stupid if they expect that complaining about people who buy lower-end computers are the real issue here.....
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Re: Re: Re: Yes and no....
I am being real, what the heck are you even talking about? Expecting the consumer to educate him/herself about what they are buying isn't asking for much. People who walk into a store blind and buy the first thing some numbnut points out to them get what they deserve.
My point about Epic is that Intel has been using integrated graphic solutions since the advent of the PC. It's 2006 and now he complains about it? Ridiculous.
"YES, the right tool for the right job. That's how you and I buy your computer. Now, when the market to the average consumer is understood as "bells and whistles" are the differences in price from one machine to the next, people don't understand or have the foresight to know what they will and won't run. "
Wow, people really are stupid, aren't they. 10 years ago when people bought games/software there was a label on the minimum and recommended requirements for the software they buy, I guess back then they read it, today they don't have the ability or the foresight. Just because it's a computer doesn't mean the person buying it isn't responsible for buying the right one.
"These integrated solutions are extremely hobbled, and they get dated very quickly. Add to that a couple of installs that don't go well, and when it comes game time, why NOT go to the console. "
Ya think? Great pickup captain obvious! They don't get dated quickly, they have always been dated from the get go, they start out as hobbled and stay that way forever and ever. Also, I never said not to buy a console. They have their place but replacing or buying instead of a PC because of games doesn't make sense to me, both have a place in the market.
"If you wanted to run the 1/4 mile fast, you wouldn't buy a Yugo. But if the market were such that so many of the cars out there were Yugos or similar performance, and that's good enough for what you THINK you're going to do with it, you're going to do what you can with it and find other solutions for your other needs...right tool for the right job. But parts and roadmakers might find themselves looking at what is wrong with the market, and how they could end up out of business with others, and how that MIGHT not be good for the whole market in the long run, especially if that car manufacturer were manufacturing other parts of the process, like the lights, or the roads.
Regardless....it's a crappy analogy. "
Agreed, it was pretty crappy in hindsight but makes a point, if your expectations change, don't complain that you didn't plan on them changing by buying the cheapest computer you found. Everybody's expectations change over time, some people seem unable to realize this and buy for now with no thought towards later.
"To be literal, you can bitch about people who don't know better, and you can bitch about people who could have complained 13 years ago in a different market, as if that would do any good."
About as good as the topic that started this, which was a guy complaining about something as if it would do any good, great pickup captain obvious, you get a button.
"But that doesn't mean that it's not affecting the market and helping drive people to consoles, which is the point. It's not about people who want their computers to do everything...they'll find another solution...the consoles and other devices. Nothing to do with apologizing, nothing to do with faults. Those people will be OK with things that don't run higher level apps on their computer."
Since the market has always sold computers this way, not sure what your point is or ever will be. How is it driving people to consoles today but not 5 years ago? People who buy a low end computer expecting it to handle higher end graphics are smart people aren't they.
"But as the capable computers diminish, so do the apps and the companies that take advantage of them. "
How are capable computers diminishing? Heck the slowest ones today smoke most of what was sold a few years ago, so point out how they are diminishing?
"That's the reality and the point of it all, Dr. McCoy, so get off your high horse and discuss the topic at hand."
So, by expecting people to take responsibility for buying crap I'm on a high horse and now suddenly off topic. As for Dr. McCoy, thank you, I'll take that as a compliment, you're the guy who transports down to the planet and never returns...
"People are ignorant and or just plain stupid if they expect that complaining about people who buy lower-end computers are the real issue here....."
Oh how original and off topic MR. Moderator, since the very topic is about integrated graphics which are used on what, hmmm could it be lower-end computers? The REAL issue, besides your inane ability to hold people to having some kind of IQ is that people are lazy, they want it cheap and to do everything and when it doesn't rather than say, darn it, I should have bought a better PC, they instead blame it on someone else.. yeah, ok.
Get a brain, then the clue will follow, maybe.
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Uh, the problem is that many of these mobos don't even have an AGP or PCI-e expansion slot. That's the problem here and I agree with Intel in this case.
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Re:
Uh, that's because the person bought the cheapest pile of junk they could. Then expected it to do the impossible. I have yet to see a quality computer or motherboard that lacked either AGP or with newer quality boards/PC's PCI-E.
Buy something not sold in China-Mart or Best Buy and maybe you'll have something worthy. Buying a pile of junk from QVC because they "gave away $2000,00 worth of hardware and software for $700.00" gets you junk with no path for an upgrade down the road.
But hey, let's blame it on Intel... good grief, never thought I'd be backing them up but in this case it's the consumer who is at fault.
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AC us right..it is not intel
anyone here remember a Timex TS/1000 or a Radio Shack TRS80 ??? I have been building my own [and others] since 1985, which is when i quit using intel chips. was in the 386sx era...lol
an integrated video does have it's up side. if someone isnt in to gaming and only checks email and light internet stuff, that is fine [iv]
yesterday, i just started using this system [which is overkill for me]
mobo: Asrock 939Dual-SATA2
CPU: AMD Opteron 165 Dual Core [2 - 1 meg L2 Caches]
Vid: Asus EN6200TC512 PCIe w/ 256 [512] meg
HD: Western Digital 80 gig SATA2 drive DVD-R [lightscribe capable]
as far as games, i built this to play the following:
Trainz 2006
has anyone tried playing Americas Army ?
last i heard it was free and done by the US Army
other than in a store, i've never been around an Ipod
i do not own a cell phone [or use voice mail]
i do not own a VCR, tho i guess i have to claim a DVD
i do not have any dedicated software to play movies
and i have lost my train of thought !
darned spider solitare..it beckons me from the dark side
kantankerus
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PLEASE!
People usually only understand what things cost: cheap computers have embedded technology with no expansion capability, kinda like the old proprietary HPs that were once sold.
These consumers are told that they can do their pictures, play games, do emails, chat, etc...whatever. They are clueless as to what is really important as far as memory, CPU, bus speeds etc.
They pay, come home, setup the computer, months pass. Finally, they want to try this new game and it may or may not meet their satisfaction all because they never considered the guts in the box during the purchase. Now, it's too late to return, they purchase an Xbox and articles such as the above are written. All because of buyers not being aware of what they are truly purchasing.
Computers are more complicated than cars, TVs, or refrigerators and must be purchased in consideration of this.
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Re: PLEASE!
The consumer is as much at fault as anybody for not making sure of what they are buying. Ignorance is not an excuse, when I shell out my hard earned money I make sure of what I'm buying, it's not that hard to do a little research before handing over your money.
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Re: PLEASE!
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as the artical said
"while those that do aren't short of options."
BTW, where can i get this 3D solitaire??
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Vista Ready
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Re: Vista Ready
I'm running Vista Beta 2 on an old Athlon 1.4ghz machine with an 9050 to see how it runs on a low end machine. It's pretty slow and sluggish so I'm going to install 2 gigis of memory and use my old 9800 Pro on it, the hard drive is fast so we'll see how well it performs with those improvements.
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Computers vs Consoles
Until consoles advance to the stage where they are literally computers. I will not buy them. Because they're online capabilities suck, the games I want are distributed over several consoles which are NOT compatible. Where as the pc games play on... ALL (good enough) PC's (which gamers know how to get).
The reason people flock to consoles is cause they are the easy way out... Tell me who can own an FPS game with a controller? An mmorpgs are not gonna be on consoles soon... RTS forget it... I need my shortcut keys that allow uber micro.
Real men? The new generation is all about the internet and the computer...
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--OK. Never disputed that, and it's fine. And that has nothing to do with why so many consumers and developers now prefer to game on consoles
"My point about Epic is that Intel has been using integrated graphic solutions since the advent of the PC. It's 2006 and now he complains about it? Ridiculous."
-- So someone's point is only valid if they complain every year, even if market forces only make it a critical issue in recent history? And you know if he's been quiet until now? Wow. You're good.
"Wow, people really are stupid, aren't they. 10 years ago when people bought games/software there was a label on the minimum and recommended requirements for the software they buy, I guess back then they read it, today they don't have the ability or the foresight. Just because it's a computer doesn't mean the person buying it isn't responsible for buying the right one."
-- There still is a label. Ask anyone you know in tech support. The calls still coming in...actually, less so, though. And the fact that someone might not buy the right stuff is relevant to what on this topic, other than the fact that integrated graphics sometimes work and sometimes don't?
"They have their place but replacing or buying instead of a PC because of games doesn't make sense to me, both have a place in the market.
-- Right now. And his point is that the integrated graphics makes it tough on consumers and developers and are adding to the shift in the market, which left uncheck could become a bigger imbalance.
"Agreed, it was pretty crappy in hindsight but makes a point, if your expectations change, don't complain that you didn't plan on them changing by buying the cheapest computer you found. Everybody's expectations change over time, some people seem unable to realize this and buy for now with no thought towards later."
-- Again...OK for you and me, but you still have to look at the reality of who is buying it and how it affects everyone.
"About as good as the topic that started this, which was a guy complaining about something as if it would do any good, great pickup captain obvious, you get a button."
-- Not so obvious...some people still don't get the affect that integrated graphics have on developers and the games they produce. From real experience, it's an issue. Bigger or smaller issue depending on the game, but it can be an issue for everything from sell-in, marketing and budget. More integrated graphics means smaller piece of pie for bigger games. Actually...Intel could make BETTER solutions....that's what we should be discussing.
"Since the market has always sold computers this way, not sure what your point is or ever will be. How is it driving people to consoles today but not 5 years ago? People who buy a low end computer expecting it to handle higher end graphics are smart people aren't they."
-- People don't KNOW they're getting lower end graphics. They don't KNOW to know. I've had to deal with these for a lot of years in config testing, and the capabilities are inconsistent. Regardless, it's not that it's happening today and NOT 5 years ago. It was happening 5 years ago, and it's increasing.
"How are capable computers diminishing? Heck the slowest ones today smoke most of what was sold a few years ago, so point out how they are diminishing?"
-- Oh, you've got to be kidding. The slowest ones smoke what was sold a few years ago, but so do the requirements of the games (which was the point). So as the percentage of machines with integrated graphics increases, so decreases non-integrated machines (captain obvious statement, but apparently not clear). It's like inflation and cost of living allowances. Those integrated solutions have gone from 16 to 64 megs, but so many things really require 128-256.
"So, by expecting people to take responsibility for buying crap I'm on a high horse and now suddenly off topic."
-- No, by complaining about those people instead of looking at market reality and how inexpensive "solutions" are making things difficult for a big sector of developers, you're off topic. But at this point, we could actually be offering solutions ourselves, such as integrated graphics that aren't weak....
"As for Dr. McCoy, thank you, I'll take that as a compliment, you're the guy who transports down to the planet and never returns..."
-- Neither were Kirk, Spock, Scotty, Uhuru, Sulu or any of those other people who made the ship run on a consistent basis, instead of hanging out in a lab and complaining about the fringe issues instead of the real ones (except for when he went nutso and tried to bang Joan Collins...also nutso...you can catch something that way...and THAT is how to go off topic properly)
"The REAL issue, besides your inane ability to hold people to having some kind of IQ is that people are lazy, they want it cheap and to do everything and when it doesn't rather than say, darn it, I should have bought a better PC, they instead blame it on someone else.. yeah, ok."
-- Based upon what you're saying, is it really that inane to doubt that the guy from the game company who is making the complaint against Intel has a crappy computer and is saying, "I wish I had a better computer"? I'll bet he's talking about the market and how Intel could avoid contributing to the problem. The people you're talking about aren't the ones complaining in the article. You're putting the blame on someone else...yeah, ok.
"Get a brain, then the clue will follow, maybe."
-- Doubt that too...you're clearly a smart guy...your clue hasn't followed regarding what YOU should be complaining about HERE. When the specific topic comes up about how some idiot bought a computer at walmart for $300 and doesn't understand why he can't play the latest and greatest FPS (and that will happen), jump in and call him an idiot....and you WILL be right.
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From a developers point of view
There are three things no one has mentioned:
1) Consoles can be a pain to develop for, but you only have to solve all your problems for one standard set of hardware. If your game runs flawlessly on one Xbox360, it will run flawlessly on ALL Xbox360's. Not true of ANY PC game making serious use of 3D graphics. This is a HUGE deal. Some of the smartest programers I know (and these guys were acknowledged to be up with Carmack for those who know who he his) would spent weeks to months resolving minor problems between different COMMON PC configurations.
In other words, for a developer, even though there are tradeoffs, there are also considerable technical advantages in developing for a console.
2) Because of the difference in market size between PC and console titles, royalties for developers on consoles tend to be a LOT better than royalties on PC titles. Money pays the bills, so money dictates the direction to move in.
3) Most cutting edge game development is driven by technology not by art. This has lead to many game developers being obsessed with realism. Realistic graphics, realistic physics, realistic explosions, fluids, you name it. This is a path 3D animation went down for quite some time (Final Fantasy the movie etc) that was an artistic dead end AND a waste of a great deal of money. I think it is a case of nothing better has come along yet.
Just my $0.02 based on first hand experience.
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Re: From a developers point of view
I met Mark Rein way back when I was involved in the Unreal scene, and he's an alright guy. I can see where this dissolutionment with the current trends in PC gaming comes from and what Fewquid says is really the nub of it, that consoles have such an advantage because of common hardware and the profit margins for developers that PC games are being squeezed out.
I slightly disagree with your third point however. Cutting edge dev has always focussed on technology over art, yes, so far. But we are at a turning point now. Most of the main structure and algorithms for realism, physics engines, rendering code has matured and reached a state of steady growth. It's not a plateau, but there are no more major paradigm shifts of big surprises in that line of development now. This was a necessary first step towards hyper-realism. You can't just go from zero to hyper-real, you have to establish a basis of realism modelling first to then subvert it. What I'm saying is that historically you are correct, but that phase is over and a new era of artistic development is ripe to commence now.
Where does this leave PC games? I don't know. But I never buy console games, I consider them for kids. I like a few old FPS like counterstrike and unreal which I play on the PC now and then. I think there will always be a market for them, just a smaller niche.
In fact I wouldn't mind paying more for PC games if they were of substantially better quality, released less often - it's a mature persons market. Console games on the hand will become largely disposable kidz stuff.
What sets the PC aside from the console is player community. I got into Unreal and that scene as a modder. Epic were always very generous and encouraging to the community, in mods like TacOps, Strikeforce, Unreal4ever and SAS we had direct communications with senior people inside Epic who gave their time to help us develop. I think they hoped we would become fledgeling games companies and buy an Unreal engine license, but of course that never happened.
If Mark was reading this now what I would say is open source the Unreal code - right up to UT2004 and continue to build on the reputation of community you established in the early days. If PC gaming is to become a niche then better to accept that right now and have a strategy to cope with it.
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Re: Computers vs Consoles
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