Gov't Can't Hide EFF's Lawsuit Against AT&T Just Yet

from the but-there's-still-time dept

Thu, Jul 20th 2006 7:01pm — Mike Masnick

Both AT&T and the U.S. government have been working hard to get the EFF's lawsuit concerning passing info on to the NSA to disappear. However, their latest effort has failed, as a judge has refused a request to dismiss the case -- though AT&T can (and almost definitely will) still appeal. The judge's reasoning is interesting, claiming first that so much of the info concerning the case is already public, there's hardly an issue of secrecy. Of course, that may raise some questions about how that info became public. However, his second point is more interesting. AT&T's defense that they were "just following government orders" is not a valid one. That's something you would have thought was obvious these days, but it's nice to see it reinforced.

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Jeff, 20 Jul 2006 @ 7:13pm

Just following orders?
YOU'RE DAMNED RIGHT I ORDERED THE CODE RED!!!!

Uhhh..... did I say that out loud?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jul 2006 @ 7:14pm

Re: Just following orders?
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

No, but we can package it up and sent it around the 'net until you government high horses roll over and do another dog and pony trick.
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Jeff, 20 Jul 2006 @ 7:15pm

Re: Re: Just following orders?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104257/quotes
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Jeff, 20 Jul 2006 @ 7:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Just following orders?
Col. Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jul 2006 @ 7:30pm

Memorable Quotes from A Few Good Men (1992) Kaffee: Is the colonel's underwear a matter of national security? Kaffee: And don't wear that perfume in court, it wrecks my concentration. Galloway: Really. Kaffee: I was talking to Sam. Kaffee: Maybe if we work at it we can get Dawson charged with Kennedy assassination. Galloway: Why do you hate them so much? Lt. Weinberg: They beat up on a weakling, and that's all they did. The rest is just smokefilled coffee-house crap. They tortured and tormented a weaker kid. They didn't like him. So, they killed him. And why? Because he couldn't run very fast. Kaffee: You don't need a patch on your arm to have honor. Col. Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to. Lt. Col. Matthew Andrew Markinson: I want you to know that I am proud neither of what I have done, nor of what I am doing. Col. Jessep: [yelling] I'm gonna rip out your eyes, and piss into your dead skull! You fucked with the wrong Marine! Lt. Col. Matthew Andrew Markinson: [voice over, as we see Markinson putting on his full class A dress uniform. It is his suicide note] Dear Mr. and Mrs. Santiago, I was William's company commander. I knew your son vaguely, which is to say I knew his name. In a matter of time, the trial of the two men charged with your son's death will be concluded, and seven men and two women whom you've never met will try to offer you an explanation as to why William is dead. For my part, I've done as much as I can to bring the truth to light. And the truth is this: Your son is dead for only one reason. I wasn't strong enough to stop it. Always, Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Andrew Markinson, United States Marine Corps. [puts pistol in his mouth, we hear a gunshot as the scene changes back to the courtroom] Col. Jessep: What do you wanna discuss now? My favorite color? Kaffee: Colonel, a moment ago you said that you ordered Lieutenant Kendrick to tell his men that Santiago wasn't to be touched. Col. Jessep: That's right. Kaffee: And Lieutenant Kendrick was clear on what you wanted? Col. Jessep: Crystal. Kaffee: Any chance Lieutenant Kendrick ignored the order? Col. Jessep: Ignored the order? Kaffee: Any chance he forgot about it? Col. Jessep: No. Kaffee: Any chance Lieutenant left your office and said, 'The old man is wrong'? Col. Jessep: No. Kaffee: When Lieutenant Kendrick spoke to the Platoon, and ordered them not to touch Santiago, any chance they ignored him? Col. Jessep: You ever served in an infantry unit, son? Kaffee: No, sir. Col. Jessep: Ever served in a forward area? Kaffee: No, sir. Col. Jessep: Ever put your life in another man's hands: asked him to put his life in yours? Kaffee: No, sir. Col. Jessep: We follow orders, son. We follow orders, or people die; it's that simple. Are we clear? Kaffee: Yes, sir. Col. Jessep: [nearly shouting] Are we clear? Kaffee: Crystal. Colonel, I've just one more question before I call Airman O'Malley and Airman Rodriguez; if you gave an order that Santiago wasn't to be touched, and your orders are always followed, then why would Santiago be in danger? Why would it be necessary to transfer him off the base? Kaffee: Did you order the Code Red? Col. Jessep: I did the job I... Kaffee: [shouting] Did you order the Code Red? Col. Jessep: [shouts] You're goddamn right I did! Judge Randolph: [reading the verdict] Lance Corporal Dawson, Private First Class Downey: On the charge of murder, the members find the accused not guilty. On the charge of conspiracy to commit murder, the members find the accused not guilty. On the charge of conduct unbecoming a United States Marine, the members find the accused guilty as charged. The accused are hereby sentenced to time already served, and you are ordered to be dishonorably discharged from the Marine Corps. This court martial is adjourned. Bailiff: All rise. [the courtroom clears; Downey is baffled and afraid, and speaks to Dawson] Downey: What does that mean? Lt. Weinberg: You've heard her. My daughter said a word. She said, "Pa." Kaffee: She was pointing to a mailbox, Sam. Lt. Weinberg: That's right. She pointed to the mailbox as if to say, "Pa, look, a mailbox." Kaffee: You ever talk to a client of mine without permission, I'll have you disbarred. Friends? Galloway: I had authorization. Kaffee: From who? Galloway: Ginny Miller. Louden's aunt on his mother's side. Kaffee: You got authorization from Aunt Ginny? Galloway: It's perfectly within my boundaries. Kaffee: Does Aunt Ginny have a barn? Maybe we could hold the trial there. I'll sew the costumes and maybe Uncle Goober can be the judge. Lt. Weinberg: Cmdr. Galloway, Lt. Kaffee is considered to be the best litigator in our office. He successfully plea bargained 44 cases in 9 months. Kaffee: One more and I get a set of steak knives. Kaffee: You think I can't subpoena Markinson? Capt. Ross: You won't find him. Do you know what Markinson did for his first 17 of his 22 years in the Marines? Counterintelligence. Markinson is gone. There is no Markinson. Lt. Weinberg: "I strenuously object?" Is that how it's done? Hm? "Objection, your Honor." "Overruled" "No, no. I STRENUOUSLY object." "Oh. You strenuously object. Then I'll take some time and reconsider." Kaffee: You and Dawson, you both live in the same dreamworld. It doesn't matter what I believe. It only matters what I can prove! So please, don't tell me what I know, or don't know; I know the LAW. Galloway: You know nothing about the law. You're a used-car salesman, Daniel. You're an ambulance chaser with a rank. You're nothing. Live with that. Kaffee: Oh, spare me the psychobabble father bullshit. Galloway: I'm sorry, I should have called first. Kaffee: No, I was just watching a ball game. Come on in. Galloway: I was just wondering if you'd mind me taking you to dinner tonight. Kaffee: Are you asking me out on a date? Galloway: No... Kaffee: It sounded like you were asking me out on a date. Galloway: No, I was just... Kaffee: I've been asked out on dates before, and that's what it sounded like. Galloway: Do you like seafood? I know a good seafood place. Col. Jessep: You see Danny, I can deal with the bullets, and the bombs, and the blood. I don't want money, and I don't want medals. What I do want is for you to stand there in that faggoty white uniform and with your Harvard mouth extend me some fucking courtesy. You gotta ask me nicely. Galloway: But my feeling is that if this case is handled in the same fast-food, slick-ass ' Persian Bazaar manner with which you seem to handle everything else, something's gonna get missed. And I wouldn't be doing my job if I allowed Dawson and Downey to spend any more time in prison than absolutely necessary, because their attorney had pre-determined the path of least resistance. Kaffee: Wow... I'm sexually aroused, Commander. Col. Jessep: So how is your dad, Danny? Kaffee: He passed away seven years ago, sir. Col. Jessep: Don't I feel like the fucking asshole? Kaffee: Not at all sir. Kaffee: Whoa. Hold it. We gotta take a boat? Barnes: Yes, sir. To get to the other side of the bay. Kaffee: Nobody said anything about a boat. Barnes: Is there a problem, sir? Kaffee: No, no problem. I'm just not that crazy about boats, that's all. Galloway: Jesus Christ, Kaffee, you're in the Navy for crying out loud. Col. Jessep: What do you wanna discuss now? My favorite color? Kaffee: I get sick when I fly because I'm afraid of crashing into a large mountain, I don't think Dramamine'll help. Lt. Weinberg: I've got some oregano, I hear that works pretty good. Kaffee: Anyway, since we seem to be out of witnesses, I thought I'd drink a little. Galloway: I still think we can win. Kaffee: Then maybe you should drink a little. Galloway: You put him on the stand and you get it from him! Kaffee: Oh! We get it from him! Yes! [turns to Sam as if he were Jessup on the stand] Kaffee: Colonel Jessup, isn't it true that you ordered the Code Red? Lt. Weinberg: Look, we all... Kaffee: [interrupts with game-show buzzer sound] eeehhhhh! Sorry, your time's run out! What do we have for the losers, judge? Well, for our defendants, it's a life sentence at exotic Fort Leavenworth! And, for defense counsel Kaffee, that's right, it's a court martial! Yes, Johnny! After falsely accusing a highly decorated officer of conspiracy and perjury, Lieutenant Kaffee will have a long and prosperous career teaching... typewriter maintenance at the Rocco Globbo School for Women! Thank you for playing "Should we or should we not follow the advice of the galactically stupid!" Kaffee: Oh, I forgot. You were sick the day they taught law at law school. Kaffee: Lt. Kendrick, may I call you John? Lt. Kendrick: No, you may not. Kaffee: Have I done something to offend you? Lt. Kendrick: No, I like all you Navy boys. Every time we gotta go some place to fight, you fellas always give us a ride. Kaffee: Lt. Kendrick... can I call you Jon? Lt. Kendrick: No, you may not. Kaffee: Have I done something to offend you? Lt. Kendrick: No, I like all you Navy boys. Every time we've gotta go someplace and fight, you fellas always give us a ride. Capt. West: Joanne, why don't you get yourself a cup of coffee. Galloway: Thank you, sir, I'm fine Capt. West: Joanne, I'd like you to leave the room so we can talk about you behind your back Galloway: Certainly, sir. Kaffee: Excuse me, sorry I'm late. Capt. Whitaker: I'm sure you don't have a good excuse, so I won't force you to come up with a bad one. Kaffee: Thank you, Isaac, that's nice of you. Capt. Whitaker: Sit-down, this first one's for you. You're moving up in the world, Danny, you've been requested by Division. Kaffee: Requested to do what? Col. Jessep: Matthew, sit, please. [Lt. Markinson sits] Col. Jessep: What do you think of Kendrick? Lt. Col. Matthew Andrew Markinson: Nathan, I don't know that... Col. Jessep: I think he's kind of a weasel, myself. But he's an awfully good officer, and in the end we see eye to eye on the best way to run a marine corps unit. We're in the business of saving lives, Matthew. That's a responsibility we have to take pretty seriously. And I believe that taking a marine who's not yet up to the job and packing him off to another assignment, puts lives in danger. [Lt. Markinson begins to stand] Col. Jessep: Matthew, siddown. [He sits] Col. Jessep: We go back a while. We went to the Academy together, we were commissioned together, we did our tours in Vietnam together. But I've been promoted up through the chain of command with greater speed and success than you have. Now if that's a source of tension or embarrassment for you, well, I don't give a shit. We're in the business of saving lives, Captain Markinson. Don't ever question my orders in front of another officer. Col. Jessep: There is nothing on this earth sexier, believe me, gentlemen, than a woman you have to salute in the morning. Promote 'em all, I say, 'cause this is true: if you haven't gotten a blowjob from a superior officer, well, you're just letting the best in life pass you by. Col. Jessep: Take caution in your tone, Commander. I'm a fair guy, but this fucking heat is making me absolutely crazy. Col. Jessep: I run my unit how I run my unit. You want to investigate me, roll the dice and take your chances. I eat breakfast 300 yards from 4000 Cubans who are trained to kill me, so don't think for one second that you can come down here, flash a badge, and make me nervous. Col. Jessep: I want you to stand there in your faggoty white uniform, and with your Harvard mouth extend me some fucking courtesy. Col. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I think I'm entitled. Col. Jessep: You want answers? Kaffee: I want the truth. Col. Jessep: You can't handle the truth. Lt. Weinberg: Why do you like them so much? Galloway: Because they stand upon a wall and say, "Nothing's going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch." Galloway: Tell your friend not to get cute down there, the Marines at Gitmo are fanatical. Lt. Weinberg: Fanatical about what? Galloway: About being Marines. [Col. Jessep is lecturing Lt. Col. Markinson] Col. Jessep: We go back a while. We were at the Academy together, we were commissioned together, and did our tours of duty in 'Nam together. But, I've been promoted up the chain with greater speed and success than you have. Now, if that's a source of tension or embarassment for you, I don't give a shit. We're in the business of saving lives, Lieutenant Colonel Markinson. Don't ever question my orders in the presence of another officer. You're dismissed. Barnes: I've got some camouflage jackets in the Jeep, sirs, I suggest you both put them on. Kaffee: Camouflage jackets? Barnes: Yes sir, we'll be riding pretty close to the fence line. The Cubans see an officer wearing white, they think it might be someone they'd wanna take a shot at. Kaffee: Good call, Sam. Galloway: Are you planning on doing any investigating, or are you just gonna take the guided tour? Kaffee: I'm pacing myself. Dawson: We joined the Marines because we wanted to live our lives by a certain code, and we found it in the Corps. Now you're asking us to sign a piece of paper that says we have no honor. You're asking us to say we're not Marines. If a court decides that what we did was wrong, then I'll accept whatever punishment they give. But I believe I was right sir, I believe I did my job, and I will not dishonor myself, my unit, or the Corps so I can go home in six months... Sir. Galloway: I don't think you're fit to handle the defense. Kaffee: You don't even *know* me. Ordinarily it takes someone *hours* to discover I'm not fit to handle a defense. Kaffee: Why does a Lieutenant Junior Grade with nine months' experience and a track record for plea bargaining get assigned to a murder case? Would it be so it never sees the inside of a courtroom? Dawson: Do you think we were right? Kaffee: It doesn't matter... Dawson: DO YOU THINK WE WERE RIGHT? Kaffee: I think you'd lose. Dawson: You're such a coward, I can't believe they let you wear a uniform. Kaffee: So this is what a courtroom looks like. Lt. Kendrick: I have two books at my bedside, Lieutenant: the Marine Corps Code of Conduct and the King James Bible. The only proper authorities I am aware of are my commanding officer, Colonel Nathan R. Jessep, and the Lord our God. Kaffee: It was oregano, Dave, it was a dime bag of oregano. Lieutenant Dave Spradling: Yeah, well, your client thought it was marijuana. Kaffee: My client's a moron, that's not against the law. Lieutenant Dave Spradling: I got people to answer to just like you do. I'm gonna charge him. Kaffee: With what, possession of a condiment? Capt. Ross: Who is this? Kaffee: Lieutenant Commander Galloway. She's very pleased to meet you. Lt. Kendrick: PFC William Santiago is dead, and that is a tragedy. But he is dead because he had no code. He is dead because he had no honor, and God was watching. Kaffee: This is a sales pitch. It's not going to be won by the law, it's going to be won by the lawyers. Kaffee: Whatever happened to saluting an officer when he leaves the room? [Dawson stands up and shoves his hands in his pockets] Col. Jessep: You fuckin' people. You have no idea how to defend a nation. All you did was weaken a country today, Kaffee. That's all you did. You put people's lives in danger. Sweet dreams, son. Kaffee: Don't call me son. I'm a lawyer and an officer in the United States Navy. And you're under arrest, you son of a bitch. Col. Jessep: I'd appreciate it if he would address me as "Colonel" or "Sir"... I believe I've earned it. Judge Randolph: Counsel will refer to the witness as "Colonel" or "Sir." Col. Jessep: I don't know what the hell kind of unit you're running here. Judge Randolph: And you will refer to this court as "Your Honor" or "Judge"... and I'm quite certain I've earned it. Take your seat, Colonel. Kaffee: All right, what's the code? Dawson: Unit, Corps, God, country. Kaffee: Come again? Dawson: Unit, Corps, God, country. Kaffee: The United States of America wants to charge the two of you with murder & you want me to go before the judge with "Unit, Corps, God, country"? Kaffee: Sherby, does the Navy still hang people from yardarms? Lt. Sherby: I don't think so. Kaffee: Dave, Sherby doesn't think the Navy hangs people from yardarms anymore. Kaffee: Did you talk to your friend at the NIS? Lt. Weinberg: Yeah, he said if Markinson doesn't want to be found, we're not gonna find him. He said I could be Markinson and you wouldn't even know. Kaffee: Are you Markinson? Lt. Weinberg: No. Kaffee: I'm not Markinson... that's two. Kaffee: Is this funny, sir? Col. Jessep: No, it's tragic. Kaffee: Do you have an answer? Col. Jessep: Absolutely. My answer is I don't have the first damn clue. Maybe he was an early riser and liked to pack in the morning. And maybe he didn't have any friends. I'm an educated man, but I'm afraid I can't speak intelligently about the travel habits of William Santiago. What I do know is that he was set to leave the base at 0600. Now, are these the questions I was called here to answer? Phone calls and foot lockers? Please tell me you have something more, Lieutenant. These two men are on trial for their lives. Please tell me that their lawyer hasn't pinned their hopes to a phone bill. [Kaffee hesitates, dumbfounded] Col. Jessep: Do you have any more questions for me, Counselor? Judge Randolph: Lt. Kaffee, do you have any more questions for this witness? [Jessep defiantly gets up to leave the courtroom] Col. Jessep: Thanks, Danny. I love Washington. Kaffee: I haven't excused you. Col. Jessep: I beg your pardon? Kaffee: I haven't finished my examination yet. Sit down. Capt. Ross: I have here the Marine Corps Outline for Recruit Training. I'd like you to turn to the chapter on "code reds". Cpl. Barnes: Well, you see, sir, "code red" is a term we use, just down in Gitmo... Capt. Ross: Oh, then, we're in luck. Marching Orders/Standard Operating Procedure, Rifle Security Company, Guatanamo Bay, Cuba. I'm sure we'll find it in there. Cpl. Barnes: You won't find it in there, either, sir. Capt. Ross: Cpl. Barnes, I'm a Marine. You mean to tell me there's no manual, no set of instructions that tells me, as a Marine, one of my duties is to perform "code reds?" Cpl. Barnes: No, sir. No book, sir. Capt. Ross: No further questions.
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Tom, 20 Jul 2006 @ 9:15pm

Re: Are you QUITE done?
Now I don't have to see the movie.
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DeadlyOats, 20 Jul 2006 @ 9:33pm

Just Following Orders
I don't remember that officer's name, the one that was tried at the Nurenberg Tribulals after WWII.

He was an SS officer in charge of one of the death camps. His defense for the war crimes he was charged with?

"I was just following orders."

He was found guilty of his war crimes and hung from the neck until dead.

No, I'm not comparing AT&T to Nazis, and no I'm not comparing what AT&T did to what that Nazi officer did, so don't even go there.

The moral of the story? Following orders does not take away culpability in criminal acts.

Following orders does not remove one from culpability of criminal activity, even if they are orders from the government. What it does is make the follower of illegal orders issued by government, a party with the order giver, government, of criminal activity.

In other words, both AT&T and the government have committed crimes against the American People. We have every right to observe this case. Government must not be allowed to escape scrutiny by the People, and AT&T does not deserve special privilages or protections in court just because they were "only following orders."
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DittoBox, 20 Jul 2006 @ 9:36pm

Re:
Ouch...where's the character limit...
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Sohrab, 21 Jul 2006 @ 12:24am

how I cannot wait for this to come bite AT&T and the Government in the ass. Thanks for spying on us but I guess AT&T had to do it, I mean it was the government that let them have their Monopoly back right? They had to return the favor somehow.

Also, whatever happened to this site? With all the BS 1st Post and 2nd Post crap and useless posting, it used to be nice to be able to talk about the topics.
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patriots for peace and privacy, 21 Jul 2006 @ 12:30am

we call that long post; filibustering
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+filibuster&meta=
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PopeRatzo, 21 Jul 2006 @ 3:28am

Re:
The only ass that's going to be bitten is the collective ass of US citizens.

If you don't believe there is a concerted effort underway by corporate and other powerful interests to deprive us of any bit of secrecy, you need put down the PSP and read some news.

Yesterday, there was a discussion in the media of a new program for "fairer" use of congested roads using a small transmitting device in every car that will tell the "transportation authority" if you're using busy streets and will send you a bill accordingly. Sort of the Big Brother version of the quite sensible fee Londoners pay to drive downtown. The downside of course, as expressed by the tech-drunk host, was that someone "might" be able to know where you are all the time.

Oh, and I just got my new RFID passport.

You're goddamn right I'm paranoid.
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Gary Sargent, 21 Jul 2006 @ 6:19am

Re: we call that long post; filibustering
Actually it's called self indulgence.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jul 2006 @ 6:32am

I seem to remember a case of a carjacking where there was a baby in the backseat of the SUV. The vehicle of course had a built in cell phone or something, and the parents called the mobile company and pleaded with a customer service rep and begged them for the location of the vehicle.

The mobile company said they could not divuldge that information without a court order.

The media had a field day with that story, headlines read "Sprint (I think it was Sprint, maybe not) refuses to help find kidnapped infant"

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jul 2006 @ 8:21am

GAME OVER JUSTICE!
kiss justice goodbye kids
president bush has personally blocked the investigation

none of the prosecutions attorneys have any security clearance to investigate ANYTHING in this case.

that effectively cuts them off from making any progress and effectively protects bush and co to continue pissing on our constitutional rights
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Yakov, 21 Jul 2006 @ 9:38am

Different Case
That's regarding the wiretapping case -- this something different.
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*Government must not be allowed to escape scrutiny, 23 Jul 2006 @ 9:39pm

Government must not be allowed to escape scrutiny by the People!

Repeat that to everyone you know! Tell it to your Congressmen, Senators, Governors and Mayors!
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Franssu, 24 Jul 2006 @ 8:46am

Makes me glad to know that some people in the USA came to realize they're living in a gorram fascist police state.

Makes me sad to know they are in such small numbers...
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DeadlyOats Rocks!, 24 Jul 2006 @ 12:24pm

Re: Just Following Orders
Dude:

Thank you sooo much for your support!

Sometimes I feel like I'm all alone fighting this battle to keep people from being suckered by governement, media, and corporations.

Yeah, we want to believe them but the sad truth is guilty until proven innocent.
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