You Don't Design An iPod Killer By Committee
from the but-Microsoft-will-certainly-try dept
Earlier today, we were joking about the complexity of Microsoft's new "philosophy" when compared to Google's simple "Don't be evil." We joked about how Microsoft is well known for design-by-committee effort that result in products that have been over-thought, over-designed and over-marketed. As we noted, this made it easy for Microsoft to parody itself when thinking about how it might design the iPod. Of course, it looks like it might not be so much of a parody after all. A not very well kept secret has been that Microsoft was working on an "iPod killer" product -- which they finally admitted to today. However, in typical Microsoft fashion, the description of the offering sounds like it, too, was done by committee: "a family of hardware and software products" that will "bring together technology and community to allow consumers to explore and discover music together." No one is looking for "a family of products." They want to know what about this product will make their lives better.
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Personally...
Why do you have a need for everything you come in contact with or touch work to make your life better? If you like a product and think it will then buy it. If it doesnt try if you want to get a refund. If you dont think it will make your life better then pass it up and move to the next isle to evaluate you haircut some more and why you werent handed a P.H.D. for your "extreme booger eating" trick you invented when you were 8 years old.
Leave MS alone the fucking product isnt even out yet.
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Re: Personally...
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Re: Personally...
This product is, in fact, not out yet.
Thank you, you lunatic.
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Re: Personally...
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HEY ANONYMOUS!!!!
!!!!!
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oh and "NEW"
All this is, is an admitance cause nobody can wait for a surprise anymore they got to get the info before it is.
http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/04/cringingly-blurry-pics-reveal-microsofts-ipod-killer/
f irst post i tracked back to within 10seconds of clicking the first link in each copy cats post.
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I welcome new products
Agree with Wire Cramped - Let's see what they have!
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Zune
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Re: Zune
That "Steve Jobs" you're talking about must be from some alternate universe. Here's the Steve Jobs that lives in this universe:
SJ, Businessweek, 1998
SJ, Stanford Commencement Address, 2005
SJ, in Triumph of the Nerds, 1996
Somehow, I don't think this particular Steve gives a boiled rat's ass salad what Microsoft is planning to do.
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MSFT competes
Browsers, you reply? Browsers had a massive slow down in development for a few years, after MSFT pushed Netscape into an extremely accelerated arms race for a few years. Browser market seems competitive to me, on the PC (as I write from Firefox browser). Even more so on non-PC devices. But the whole environment rapidly accelerated after MSFT entered.
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Re: MSFT competes
MS & the remaining employees were hired to surround a market from all angles.
That worked fine 7+ years ago when you could control manuafcturers, suppliers and retailers (eventually illegally).
In the internet era, NO ONE can do that.
Ms took out Netscape by not allowing anyone to place Netscape on the machine at an OEM level. In the pre-internet & dialup days, that was death.
MS tried to do that with the ipod by helping launch a couple dozen online stores and working with a myriad manufacturers to create plays4sure. That works when you are talking about CPU manufacturers - bundle IE or you can't sell Windows.
But unlike before, consumers are free to ignore MS. Consumers could downloaded itunes in 20 seconds off the internet to try it out. Apple could choose from hundreds of OEM manufacturers to product ipods - no one fearing MS very much because MS cannot leverage their OS anymore.
They spent $400 per unit to make the XBox a sucess and how much of a straetch is it? It's essentially a flat PC without the hassles of PC ownership for playing games (no viruses, no drivers and no patches ... well, not that many ...)
They have failed in EVERY consumer endeavor since 1995 from talking barneys to watch OS to MSN ... this will be exactly the same - it will be like their Q phone - after all this - really? That's it?
It will be expensive and it will have a battery of 2 hours and if the pohotos released so far are true, it looks like a thing designed by bureacrats ... and they want to brand it Xbox something but with no game capability so the gamers will sneer at it and for non-gamers, they'll dismiss anything XBox as some game machine ... so who's left?
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Stop it!
Sure, devices compete. Sure, the iPod holds mp3 player market share. But for the love of god, lets try to be a TAD more original and stop using this freaking term to describe something we all know wont happen. MS will not kill the iPod.
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YAWN, I'm as excited as getting a root canal
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Name
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Re: Name
I'm sure the real product name will be as bland and generic as everything else MS does.
Microsoft Music Player (MMP)
Now with Super DRM
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as in all areas
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You Don't Design An iPod Killer By Committee??
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Don't confuse press release for product
That is how PR trains them (and, formerly, me) to talk to the press. Many folks there can't be real and talk in clear terms, except folks like, alas, Scoble.
But I believe they have been watching this for a while now, and would be surprised if it did not work very well. Recapturing a large percentage of the market - now, that's the hard part.
--Howard Greenstein, former MSFTie
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Innovation
Their core product - Windows - is a buggy mess. Their attempt to branch out into consumer products with the XBox has been a money losing failure.
If they really want to innovate in the entertainment space they should try to invent a new product entirely - if they can - otherwise they are doomed to a life of sloppy seconds.
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Re: Innovation
Sorry but, this is just blatenly wrong.
http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=11760&page=8
This should quickly dispell that notion. If you don't have the time to look at this information then observe.
Profits in game sales to date: 13.78 Billion (That's with a B)
As for the notion that microsoft should try to "innovate" the entertainmen space with a new product, well the perhaps you too should peruse engadget or any other media you perfer, as the Zune seeks to do just that, innovate.
For all those out there that wish to make grandiose claims without any substancial evidence, please, for the love of god, you live in an era with the largest appendix of information at your very fingertips....
www.justfuckinggoogleit.com
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Re: Re: Innovation
The Entertainment Division (Xbox) has lost nearly $5 billion since the Xbox came to market. You can't sell enough games to counter that dismal performance. I can hardly believe we have not seen a shareholder revolt at Microsoft. Their willingness to flush money down the toilet time and time again astonishes me. Billions have been lost at MSN and Xbox but the losses are covered up by the monumental profits racked up by Windows and Office. And now they will drop another few billion on Zune with almost no chance to make any money. Let's face it: without their two main franchises, Microsoft is an empty vessel - a complete lack of original ideas and execution. And I won't even go into how poorly the Vista project has been managed because that has been absolutely pathetic. That is why their stock has laid their like a dead dog for the last five years.
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Re: Re: Re: Innovation
I hate Microsoft's products as much as the rest of you, and I get pissed at their business practices, but please, "I-Pod killer" and "Make your Life Better" are just marketing hyperbole. That's nothing new. It doesn't mean that a site like Slashdot, oh wait, I'm at Techdirt, needs to pay attention and spread the virus.
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Re: Re: Innovation
"MS Home and Entertainment (Year Ended June 30, 2006)
Sales: $4,256
Operating Loss: $1,262"
So, *per YOUR source URL*, M$ *LOST* 1.2B USD on sales of 4.2B USD in FY '06. It appears the 13B USD number you quoted was for M$ AS A WHOLE, not for N$ profits on video games.
Now, you arrogant fuck who apearently can't be bothered to review your own fucking source, would you like to apologize to the OP get down off that high horse?
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Re: Re: Re: Innovation
The financial world has a really funky system for years, but for simplicity lets just call it a "fiscal year." What you showed me was the fiscal year of 2006. So we see microsoft raked in slightly less then 3 Billion in that year. My friend, the Xbox was realeased in 2001, that means that we must count from when it was released! Oh my! This means some searching and adding, but rest assured, the numbers will again amount to close to 13 Billion in profit.
Delta OP: I take the revenue and I subtract the operational cost, this is how I am getting profit. If you know of a different way, microsoft and I would be more then happy to hear it. Please don't tell the people of this forum otherwise; unless I am wrong, in which case be my guest.
Coward:
There is too much of this today, trigger happy youth that would like nothing better then to rock the boat. Not to mention that in the dissection of the above arguement, you will find the end riddled with ad hominem attacks, which are inappropriate and lose sight of the point of the claim.
I understand your position, you hate microsoft, and you see this guy trying to defend that which is incontrovertible, so you want to deface the name of the defense.
Don't abuse the lack of moderation on these forums by transforming it into an insult board.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Innovation
http://www.microsoft.com/msft/earnings/FY05/earn_rel_q4_05.mspx
13b is home entertainment total profit since 2001
13b is ALSO last years entire MS profit the 2 numbers are conincidental
Jason is right Xbox (division) is profitable 2.8b last year alone
Yes 13b is the profit for MS as a whole
But by no way has this proven that MS is going to loose the battle nor win. I agree its all in the marketing and MS has always won here as they can afford to loose more in marketing then MAC earns yearly.
AGAIN the product is not out and you all need to wait for it my original post was stop expecting MAMA MSFT to be everything you think it should and leave it alone if enough people leave it alone it will die and wither. MSFT is not in you brain telling you that you must consume its products, yet the world does right? RIGHT!? Ok then an MP3 player is only that if we consume it then it wins if we dont it wont. BUT IT WILL NOT MAKE YOUR LIFE BETTER OR WORSE F N A people.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Innovation
It is quite possible for a company to have billions of dollars in revenues yet they still can be losing money. In Microsoft's case they are only losing money in that market segment - their Windows and Office franchises remain licences to print money so the company remains well in the black in terms of profit.
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Re: Innovation
Good marketing trumps innovation every time. While MS may have been only good (or mediocre) at innovation, they were tops at marketing. MS even out-marketed IBM to become the dominant player that they are.
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Re: Re: Innovation
Thanks for saying that. Innovation is nothing without the business savvy/marketing to bring the product to market. A good case in point is the Mac. I have always been impressed at how well thought out the Mac is a computer, but I've always purchased PCs because they are ubiquitous. When I was in college, no problem finding a PC to work on and accept the floppy with my papers on it, while at work, surrounded by PCs. This is anecdotal but I woul dare say good business practice/marketing beats innovation anyday.
As per the IPod, I own an MP3 made by Iomega. It does exactly what I thought it would do, store and playback music with a reasonable interface to deal with large amounts of songs. One day I was playing with my friends IPod nano and I just didn't get it. I was expecting to see some wiz bang thing that made it superior to my gneric MP3 player, but nothing. I asked my friend why the big fanatic love of the product and all he could muster was a "cause it's cool". OK, so I guess perhaps Apple is learning the lessons from the Mac and spending more money and time in the marketing department. Good for them.
As per MSFT Zune (or whatever the name). I think it's going to synch or swim based off of functions for the price. If MSFT can figure out a way to pack equal or more functionality than an equivalent IPod, into a cheaper unit, I think they have a good chance of penetrating and maybe dominating the market. That assumes that MSFT does its usual job of throwing monsterous amounts of ad dollars at the product and bundles so much support into the OS as to make it a natual extension of your PC. I wonder if they could figure a way of leveraging Zune for use somehow in the Xbox. The more cross-fnctionality the more potential converts from IPods.
Either way, I'm sticking to my gneric MP3 player for now until someone comes out with something amazing (at an amazing price).
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Re: Innovation
Actually they didn't buy it--they reversed engineered [aka: pirated] it.
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Re: Re: Innovation
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Re: Wire Cramped
You sound like a crazy person.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Killer
I think that Microsoft should produce something that would really be accepted by consumers like a "Windows Killer" or maybe an "Office Killer". Much better marketing Op. me thinks.
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General Responses
If I've said this once, I've already said this a thousand times.
The "Zune" is not in competition with the iPod. It is a multimedia player with capabilities reaching far beyond that which the iPod could currently fathom. (Not apple-bashing here, I own 2 iPods, on my third as we speak)
Mark above hit the nail on the head, media will lead you astray with its whatever-will-sell nomenclature. Allow me to straighten things out a bit here.
Zune = Gaming/Mulitimedia (think INTEGRATION: Live.com, xbox marketplace, and their iTunes music store, the soon to be disclosed "Alexandria")
iPod = MEDIAplayer, with strong emphasis on both words there, you can store media, and you can..play it!
The Zune, based upon what very little information and speculation is available, is an entirely different product category, even though it takes on the functional attributes of a DAP. For more information on the terminology and information here see the engadget articles (a plain search for Zune will bring up a whole slew of them).
To put this in perspective it would be the eqivelant of comparing a bicycle (iPod) to an automobile (Zune). The only fair comparisson would be to compare the iTunes store to microsofts up and coming Alexandria (project name) music service, as the two at this moment in time, aim to DIRECTlY compete.
I hope this unclouds some of the thoughts surrounding this issue as forums like these can be pools of misinformation.
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iPod Killer Again? No way, and here's why...
• dozens of cases and protectors to choose from in assorted styles and colors
• at least a half-dozen different devices for playing my iPod on my car stereo, either via fm, cassette interface, or even some hard-wired options, including built-in chargers
• devices for interfacing with tvs and projectors, turning my iPod into a much cooler slide show presentation device than lugging a computer with a klunky power-point presentation with the same old bullet points and blue backgrounds
• assorted loudspeaker combinations
• photo input devices
• microphones (the TuneTalk Stereo, now available, records at full 44 khz)
Nike shoe interface device
• probably a dozen more devices
Microsoft's player, at best, will have a few generic add-on devices available for it. It would take them a long time, and a proven sales record of these players of theirs before businesses making add-ons will want to drink their kool-aid.
Speaking of kool-aid, Microsoft will never get "cool." It's not ingrained in their system.
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Re: iPod Killer Again? No way, and here's why...
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contrasts
The companies that sell these players also find that they are best when they are sold for a profit.
What was the last Microsoft designed hardware that was lightweight, low power, cool running, and profitable? I have one of their mice, that probably fiuts the bill. I'm having trouble thinking of any other hardware products they have shipped or influenced that fit into this envelope. XBox, XBox 360 and Origami are the big negative examples of The Microsoft Way IMHO..
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who cares who designs it?
- stores at least 2 gigs
- has a good sound quality
- comes with an actual ac charger
- is seen by my computer as an usb storage device
- is sold for less than a 100 euros.
it could be designed by George Bush for all I care!
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Xbox 360 a failure?
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Xbox 360 a failure?
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What Apple has one Guy working on Music?
Any company over 5 employess has committees, often called teams. That work on designing products.
The iPod is clearly a successful comittee design bridging three major products, teh iPod, iTunes player, and iTunes Music Store.
So.. stop posting this "Microsoft Designs by Committee" drivel and wait to see if they get it right or wrong. The creative Zen Vision:M is darn close to being an iPod match in design and function...
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Re: What Apple has one Guy working on Music?
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Some seem confused about terminology
"Design by committee" is a term/phrase/meme with certain connotations. It does NOT mean that a group of people were involved. Of course almost any product has a group of people that work on it.
In this case, it sounds like some manager said "Apple's making a killing, so we should be in this market, I'll organize a meeting!" So a bunch of managers throw ideas about every available mobile technology on the table. Wifi's big now, let's make it have Wifi! Web 2.0 is all about communities, let's do that (vauge handwaving)! Media, games (I think they might actually be skipping that one, thank god), Live anywhere... So they write up a spec, and hand it to an engineer with a huge grin on their faces, knowing that they contributed and looked good to their boss in the meeting. Then the engineers follow the spec exactly in an uninspired fashion. You end up with a product that meets a sheet of bullet points but no one wants.
Now, back in reality, MS has actually learned a few lessons on this. Rumor has it the Zune was designed by the xbox team, who actually have some design experience. I still don't have much hope for it, but until it comes out and people use it, we won't know if they fucked it up or not.
I just think this community crap is worthless. It's unusable unless you live in a very high population density area, or you're just sharing with your existing online friends. I suppose its a way of getting communities to talk about the music they like, and thus every group memeber has to get the Zune to be able to participate. I'm sure they hope this will make it spread virally, but I'm guessing a few people will buy it and use it for music, and pester their iPod owning friends to switch, unsuccessfully.
The sad thing is that MS is capable of selling it fairly well no matter how crappy it is.
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Response to Delta OP
Bottom Line: the Xbox IS EXTREMELY profitable
Now look:
If you go to microsoft's website and you look at the annual reports starting in 4th quarter of 2001 (since that's when the xbox was released) and we look at the subsection of Home and Entertainment, which as it explains is essentially a dressed up name for its Xbox division, and we take the revenue - operational loss to get profit!
Now we add up the quarters to make up the TO DATE profit, and what do we have? 13.78 Billion from November 11, 2001, when the Xbox came to market.
The "Loss" you are quoting is the accumulated operation loss, which is to be expected as being so high, but when contrasted with revenue...
If you don't believe me, do the math yourself.
On a completely unrelated note, Moogle has the only post that is relevant to this thread, so hats off to him for that. Someone has to keep their eye on the prize.
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Re: Response to Delta OP
As for the Zune, I don't see how it will compete well with the iPod. First of all, I suspect Apple is not standing still - they will be coming out with a revised iPod lineup to be sure so they will continue to be a moving target for anybody who hopes to compete with them. Plus, the iPod is a lineup of players which include the iPod Nano which probably sells the best among all the iPods and appparently Microsoft at least initially is not going to have anything to compete in the flash player market which is a big hole that won't be filled by the Zune.
The lack of thought that goes into some of these posts leaves me with one burning question:
Does your Mommy know you are on the internet?
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Pfffft!!!
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Re: Pfffft!!!
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Re: Pfffft!!!
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-MS gets a lawsuit for doing something stupid.
-MS gets a lawsuit for copyright infringement from some random group.
-MS outdo Apple and gains a foothold in the MP3 player industry.
-MS creates an OK MP3 player and continue to make profits off of it without surpassing Apple and its iPod.
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ha.
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I-Pod Killer Mentality
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I'd like to have your problems...
I for my part give a rat's ass who builds a device - as long it's good. That's the first thing I look for. Then comes the price.
Apple isn't really a guarantee for success either - a whopping less than 4% marketshare for their computers isn't very impressive - as are some of MS's products.
I guess people vote with their purse - and in that spirit - let's wait until the player is out, before you all get excited - or the opposite (for the MS-Haters).
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more socialist gobblygook
on another note, microsoft is notorious for bloatware. i wonder if i will have to reboot my microsoft XPod a few times per day and I also wonder if it will hve some windows-derivative running under the hood.
count me out. I have no interest in buying a copy of something which already works great.
TS
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uhm... deosent everyone know this?
if it is not a good product, then people will not by it.
end of story.
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Re: uhm... deosent everyone know this?
here's mine:
this coming from MS, i'll be surprised if it isn't something they purchased from another company and rebranded. THAT'S the MS way. has been for a long time.
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No Fret
The same will be true of their ill fated dogshit they have on the drawing board..... I'll just be blowin' you off
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It will rock.
ipod is so simple and boring just like PS2 was. Crticize and laught, 2 years from now you will be zuning.
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Competition is what makes this country go round
Truthfully they need to change their marketing strategy. My guess is that they will try to market to the older more conservative audience that doesn't understand technology all that well, when they should be marketing to the trendsetters. That whole family of software nonsense? My parents do not and will never own an MP3 player.
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inTell inside
1. Microsoft lost about $50US on every x-box it sold prior to 360 and hoped to make up for it with gaming profits from their gaming division and market share when they owned the market. I imagine they will do the same with "Zune".
2. There's a reason the x-box dev. unit is way off campus and few people even realize that microsoft even makes the x-box who buy it. Nobody even likes saying they are "microsoft" there. they got smart. Association with MS is a strong acrid taste in the mouths of consumers.
2.a (personal aside) Biggest mistake MS makes is calling anything the "Microsoft ______" (ie. MSN Search"--are you fuckinng kidding me?).
3. "Creativity by committee" is true to a degree in all cases, yes, but microsoft has what marketing calls "inside out marketing". Because it only hires "smart" people who find flaws in everything, when there is any risk involved they all shoot it down internally to continue looking "smart" and that's why innovation (aka "risk") doesn't occur there. Innovation and risk are synonymous. Buying into the bell curve after early adopters only worked when they had the time to get in in that moment--but the moments happen too fast now for them to get in, and now the conversation on the internet also impedes their "buy and die" conquest plans for competing products.
4. Personal feelings as a former MS marketer: I hope the company really makes apple increase their lead with x-box, make the songs cheaper, or whatever, causing MS to spin its wheels there. Because all of this will be old news when apple releases a true cross-platform (legacy intel) version of Tiger (Leopard or whatever) and you can install the strongest operating system on the planet while MS continues to not ship "longhorn".
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Ipod is dying
A system close to the turning on the raido and having a personaized bot DJ do all the work is the next step in music. Something like a portable Launchcast service.
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U GUYS ARE GAY !!
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ME AGAIN...
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Overreacting to
Isn't the iPod mini, nano, and full sized iPod a family of products? Doesn't this just mean that Microsoft will be introducing more than more model?
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blah blah microsoft sucks blah blah blah
how about some respect, they've done an infinite amount of good things for alot of different industries and are under way more scrutiny then any other company out there.
you can't make everyone happy, but they try pretty hard.
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X-Box Failure??
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Re: X-Box Failure??
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Well, it's refreshing to see that so many are coming to the aid of that little mom-n-pop operation we like to call Microsoft. I mean seriously, let them dominate everything. That's what the company is supposed to do. Please don't get in the way, or you'll be crushed by that inexorable steamroller of a company who will one day purchase the air we breathe and license it back to us for a nominal fee.
Especially you gen-XYZers! You make me sick! Get off my digital lawn!
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DONT UNDERSTAND YOU PEOPLE
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Just a thought though.
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Valentine
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fuck you son
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