Canadians Say Please Tax Our Blank CDs Even More

from the does-that-make-sense? dept

Fri, Sep 1st 2006 4:16am — Mike Masnick

It's quite common to see surveys released by various groups to support whatever position they have on things, but in almost every case, if you dig deeper into the actual survey questions, you find that they're heavily biased in the way they're worded. Often this means leading questions, or using "loaded" words to make people answer the way they want to. When it becomes really dangerous is when these types of misleading surveys as a basis for making or changing laws. Everyone should realize they have little to no validity -- but they're often taken as representative. Take, for example, the news coming out of Canada that Canadians have no problem with being charged extra for blank CDs as a way of compensating the music industry for the potential. Actually, it's not just that they have no problem with it. The study found that many people believe they pay too little, and they'd happily pay more. It should immediately make you wonder what's going on with a study when the results suggest people aren't just happy about being taxed, but that they think it would be grand if they were taxed even more.

Michael Geist points out just a few of the problems in the actual survey -- such as noting the price of the levy, but not putting that into context of how much of the sale price it represents. He notes it also doesn't ask important questions about how much private copying of music people actually do. If the levy is supposed to pay for such uses, you would think that would be at the top of the list of any such survey -- unless those conducting it are afraid of what they might find out. If you look at the wording of the actual survey questions, they are certainly loaded... bringing up such things as whether or not people feel artists should be compensated for their music. Of course people feel the artists should be compensated -- but that doesn't mean that a blank CD levy is the best way to do so. What becomes clear as you read through the survey is that they ask these questions in a vacuum -- as if there were no other way to compensate artists, and then ask people about whether they think the various dollar amounts are fair. It should be clear to anyone reading the actual survey that there are still plenty of questions about how Canadians really feel about a blank CD levy -- but it's unclear if the decision-makers will bother to notice that.

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70 Comments

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Ron Ridgeway, 1 Sep 2006 @ 4:41am

Surveys
I learned a long time ago not to pay attention to any form of survey or study. They will always come out the way the people paying for them desire it to. If you listened to half the government surveys you wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.
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Louis, 1 Sep 2006 @ 5:55am

Yeah
Like the bible.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 6:14am

flamebait
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cobra, 1 Sep 2006 @ 6:18am

Levy vs Downloading
Missed in the article is that as some media are charged a levy, the music industry lost a landmark legal case in Canada with regard to downloading music. The standard argument that by downloading music the artists were not compensated therefore a breach of copyright was not accepted by the court as they pointed out that infact the artist was compensated by the levy.
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SMB, 1 Sep 2006 @ 6:46am

You can never trust a society that is fueled solely by bacon.
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Starving Musician, 1 Sep 2006 @ 6:52am

crooks I say
I would like to see a list of artists who have received compenstaion from this levy and how much. Last I heard millions were collected and not a single artist received so much as a penny. Begs the question whose wallets are being padded by this.
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ehrichweiss, 1 Sep 2006 @ 6:54am

loaded words..
I bring this up every time I read something like this...

A few years ago a study was done to see how easy it was to skew a jury's view of evidence and testimony. They used 2 groups, both were shown the exact same car accident on video. The first group was asked "how fast was the first car going when it hit the second car" and the second group was asked "how fast was the first car going when it smashed into the second car". The second group always rated the speed 10-20 mph faster than the first group.
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John Q Public, 1 Sep 2006 @ 7:06am

Canadians are taxed something like 51% of their income; if they are willing to put up with that, I don't care about anything they say about taxes (that's probably the same percentage that speak French -- need I say more?).

Is their such a thing as an unbiased survey?
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JFR, 1 Sep 2006 @ 7:16am

@ John Q Public

va chier
need I say more?
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Libertarian Tom, 1 Sep 2006 @ 7:29am

Tax me more!
In California, every election we vote to increase the amount by which we are taxed. Every election we vote in some new bond issue, which becomes a new tax. Our politicians never have to worry about the unpopular act of raising taxes. We, the people, now do it for them.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 7:30am

The sheeple in Canada rely on the government to take care of their needs instead of themselves. This survey is no surprise although it's fundamentally flawed in its methodology. The other problem is that problems are often artificially created in order to create a government agency that creates jobs for more bureaucrats. THAT is a big reason why taxes are so high in Canada.
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Tim Bit, 1 Sep 2006 @ 7:54am

There are other uses for blank CDs
I don't use CDs for copying or storing any kind of music, be it MP3 or something else; however, I do use blank CDs and DVDs for backing up my pictures and computer data. Why should I pay a levy to compensate music artists? Assuming that blank CDs can only be used for music is ignorance at its best. Either the people doing the survey and those who payed for it have never backed up anything in their lives, or they were especifically looking for people who, by their answers, would justify another money grab. Plus, come to think of it, this just gives me the strong desire to start downloading and copying music as I'm already paying to the artists, aren't I? Whatever the purpose, other than paying more taxes, I don't see how a levy helps the artists or prevents piracy in any way; if anything, it makes piracy more tempting than before.
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w1nX, 1 Sep 2006 @ 7:58am

Bacon and taxes
First off - the country is fuelled on beer and hockey, not bacon ~ Oh, and it's pronounced "zed" not "zee" =P

As far as taxes go... well there's our lovely Goods and Services Tax (the hated GST) and then there is provincial taxes (generally between 7%-9%). That amount gets removed on our "taxable" income. Of course, we get taxed again when we spend the money, so I guess it equals to over 30% give or take.

As far as the levy goes - I can't do anything about it. A 50pc spool of DVD's generally goes for about $24.00 CAD, plus tax, and last time I worked it out there was 7 cents on every DVD for the levy. Do I want a higher levy? No. Will I continue to buy DVD's/CD's for "archival" purposes? Sure I will. Just about every game, application, movie, and ALL my mp3's are backed up to DVD.

Does it surprise me the government, the PIAA, and everyone else wants a piece of the pie? No. Some things you just have to except.

w1nX
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Sean, 1 Sep 2006 @ 7:58am

Re:
No, you needn't say more. In fact you SHOULDN'T say more. The labels that you find acceptable might earn you a label of your own; like bigot or racist.
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are any of you Canadian?, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:01am

being a canadian who downloads music, only a select few stores actually USE this levy, maybe a 50 bundle somehting like $40-$50 after tax

where you can easily go to other places and get them for $10-$20

so, its only the people who feel guilty by downloading (legally in canada), that will actually pay for this levy
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are any of you Canadian?, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:03am

Bacon and taxes
you need to learn to buy from better places, your getting ripped off on your blank cds, lol
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Daniel, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:09am

Total BS
I think the makers of this survey should be flogged. As a proud Canadian this is the first I heard of "said survey", and they obviously made up the results... My honest opinion is if an "artist" is good and puts out a good CD where there are more than 2 good songs on it, then yes people will buy their CD. Blank CDs are way overprised as they are but most people probably didn't even realize they paid a huge amount extra already just on these stupid levies.
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w1nX, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:11am

Re: Ripped off
Well - that's the average price from Future Shop. Of course when I'm down in Vancouver I hit the flea markets and grab a 100pc spool for 20 bucks!!
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:26am

That, and we can go to the hospital with a health card instead of a credit card.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:27am

(( Health card comment #19 was in response to post #11 ))
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Robbino, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:28am

morons
these idiots put way too much value on the blank CD. It's like a toll booth charging a scooter when they let the tractor trailer ride the freeway for free. /me shakes his head
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w1nX, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:29am

Post 19
Way too true!

*shouted*
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Chris, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:30am

Money for artists?
How much of and how does the money get to the"starving artists?" Does it go to the record industry? How much of the tax gets diverted to PSA's informing the citizens of the evils of music and movie piracy? How many people actually burn cds nowadays instead of copying music to their mps player? If it was really was a good idea to begin with, it's a day late and a canadian dollar short.
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doubledoh, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:31am

taxes = criminal extortion
I've said it here before and I'll say it again. You either believe in freedom or you don't. If you believe that it is ok for a government to force others to pay a tax on something for the benifit of another industry, that is coercion, it is theft, it is extortion, it is racketeering, it is the work of criminals. If you allow this to happen with your vote (or indeed your lack thereof to stop it), you do NOT believe in freedom. There are no exceptions, no asterisks, no footnotes...to freedom. You believe in it, or you don't.

http://www.jonathangullible.com/mmedia/PhilosophyOfLiberty-english_music.swf
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Topher3105, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:33am

Canadians are dumb
I know, cause I am one.

I am often dissappointed when I here stuff like this, because it just steels my believe that Canadians are nothing but passive agressive wimps that will complain and bitch bout pollitics, but do little to change the status quo.

We just don't get politically motivated the way other countries do. Our Liberal government for 13 years basically stole from taxpayers and are corrupt con artists, yet year after year we voted them back in because, well, we don't like changes and didn't feel like wasting our time wondering how the other guys will do. In the last 2 electincs, we voted in minority governments.

So when Canadians say things like, we are paying too little tax on something, I just shake my head and want to cry out "Grow a freaking backbone people!". The government rips of off, and Canadians say sorry, want some more?
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Duane Nickull, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:36am

SOCAN and the levy
There actually is a process for receiving distributions of the collected levy however I highly suspect not many collect it. YOu have to apply to SOCAN and they will assess your claim and forward you a "portion" of the collected revenue. One of my fellow musicians spent $30,000 CAD to record and distribute music has a cheque framed on his wall for $11.36. This is based on radio play and his portion of the levy.

The short answer is you'll probably spend more on the postage stamp to mail in the form.
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Stan, 1 Sep 2006 @ 8:51am

LOL at socialized medicine
"That, and we can go to the hospital with a health card instead of a credit card."

Personally, I'll gladly pay for the superior US medical treatment.

As do most Canadians who can afford it.
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Wifezilla, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:01am

CD's?
With access to 3 iPods and 3 separate FM transmitters, I haven't used a CD in 3 years. DVD's...yeah, but DC's are right up their with cassette tapes in my book.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:03am

Re: 51% of income?
It's actually a lot less.

In many cases, the amount of one's income which goes to pay taxes and medical coverage is a LOT less when compared to our nearest lowest-bidder-wins neighbour.

But please, keep toeing that line; it keeps you crazies out.
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Thankgod, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:06am

This is why.....
This is why Canada sucks. Enough said.

There's a lot more reasons, but this is a good enough one to just leave out in the open for people to think about. Glad I'll never go back to that toilet of a country, if you actually call that place a country.
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megatard, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:08am

There are lies, filthy lies, and then there is statistics.
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bored now, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:14am

bear in mind...
...that the music industry is not homogeneous. The people pushing for the levy aren't the recordng companies - they hate levies. It's a collecting society which, like many of its type, has become parasitic upon the industry it was established to serve.
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w1nX, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:15am

post 29
flamebait again
*sigh*

and just where do YOU live in the US?
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John Q Public, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:18am

Re: JFR
What Canadians think of taxes is completly worthless to Americans, regardless of whether this survey was skewed or not. Socialism is a cancer.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:21am

Re:
>> "You can never trust a society that is fueled solely by bacon"

Nor one that is fueled solely by fear.
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Rikko, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:24am

Techdirt once again brings out the lowest common d
Good to see the ignorant, blowhard Americans are well represented on Techdirt spewing wisdom about things they think their brother once told them about Canada and the world.
Please, children, other people read your drivel and may actually start believing it as well.

51% income tax? What idiocy. Socialism? Canada is as socialist as the US is fascist.
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w1nX, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:34am

LCD...
Thanks for the post Rikko.

Hey don't forget... Canada invaded and went to war with the US once (and won) -- but then again they don't teach that in the US.
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John, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:38am

Canadian's Tax On CD
This sounds great Canada is willing to pay taxes so all the rest of us can now download and copy for free.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:40am

Re: LOL at socialized medicine
Third leading cause of death in the US is doctors error - so much for 'superior'.

http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/Leading_Cause_of_Death_in_the_US.html
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:41am

Re: LOL at socialized medicine
Third leading cause of death in the US is doctors error - so much for 'superior'.

http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/Leading_Cause_of_Death_in_the_US.html
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chaz, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:44am

Re: Techdirt once again brings out the lowest comm
"Socialism? Canada is as socialist as the US is fascist."
Canada pretty socialist, eh!
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Brett, 1 Sep 2006 @ 9:58am

Conservative
If Canada is socialist, why is our government Conservative?
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Nyle, 1 Sep 2006 @ 10:06am

Re:
We're taxed 51% of our income in New York State too. Does that mean I can pirate music now legally?

*CHUCKLE*
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Ed, 1 Sep 2006 @ 10:07am

Bla Bla Bla...
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

This is a BIG bulshit! Waste of time!!

Talk seriously, people: a smart(and non-serious) group that had a luminous idea of share the bill with all who buy a CD or DVD, despite will be used to music or not...

They definetively thinks we are all stupid.

Open your EYES - thay are putting the velvet, long and silent fingers in your wallets!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 10:11am

Re: Bla Bla Bla...
"They definetively thinks we are all stupid."

I'm not sure, but I think you've just hindered your own cause.
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Bud Boomer el al, 1 Sep 2006 @ 10:22am

Manifest Destiny
"Surrender pronto, or we'll level Toronto."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Bacon_(film)
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Ed, 1 Sep 2006 @ 10:26am

Ops !! No!!
In fact, no.

I don't think anyone must seriously accept to pay a tax in advance for something that could, or not, will be used for the purpose of the tax was created for.

Nothing against the artists or someone else.

Cheers~
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w1nX, 1 Sep 2006 @ 10:47am

Re: Re: Bla Bla Bla...
That's because 3 out of 10 kids never get past the eight grade

US education sucks... unless Daddy has a deep wallet
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Andy, 1 Sep 2006 @ 10:55am

Why would anyone want this?
Anybody who would willingly pay a levy such as this must be thinking that they are taking more value in music than they are paying in levy. Why else would any one accept paying for something for a purpose to which they may or may not ultimately put the product?

Many people put backups, photographs and home videos or other material onto these CDs and such material should NOT draw a levy.

What will they come up with next: a levy to pay when you buy a car for any speeding violations you may or may not incur when you drive? How about alcohol tax on water, which you may or may not brew into beer or wine? It all makes about as much logical sense as the CD levy.

I write as a person living in Finland which also has such a levy. It IS anti-freedom. All taxation is extortion and governments of ALL forms have repeatedly been shown to make extremely poor financial managers.
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w1nX, 1 Sep 2006 @ 10:56am

Re: Conservative
'Cause Harper is an Idiot... the Liberals are crooks, the NDP are just screwups, and nobody voted in the green Party!!
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w1nX, 1 Sep 2006 @ 11:20am

Re: Why would anyone want this?
The "levy" is applied to the sale of CD/DVDs at the time of purchase.

the only choices we have is not to buy therm, or pay the included levy fees
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chaz, 1 Sep 2006 @ 11:26am

Re: Re: Why would anyone want this?
I'm in the US and buy them online-no tax-can't you do the same and then the levy woun't be accesed?
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tgolstch, 1 Sep 2006 @ 11:29am

Re: LOL at socialized medicine
Yes, whip out that credit card and pay roughly around
$10,000.00 for a hip replacement or maybe $50,000.00 for a triple bypass.
Or maybe electroshock to get you back into the real world.
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Brent Nowell, 1 Sep 2006 @ 11:30am

I work at a store that does not include it in the
EVERY SINGLE TIME THAT I SELL CD'S TO A CUSTOMER THAT DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT THE LEVY, THEY COMPLAIN.

Yes thats right folks, since 2k1 when it started and our store decided to charge it seperatley from the price to show consumers what they are paying for, I have heard most likely thousands upon thousands of complaints.

I think the most common complaint is this

Customer "Uh, I see that the price is 20 so dollars, I thought the cd's were 9.49 for a ten pack?"
me "Yea the canadian government charges a levy.. "
I then point to the screen where it shows a 10.50$ charge
"on every cd so that canadian music artists can get some money back from the 'apparent' songs that we steal"

Customer "But I'm using these strictly for the office, that means photos and documents.."
me "Unfortunatley everyone pays the levy, regardless what they use the cd's for"

So yes, people pay the levy whether they are stealing music or not.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 11:32am

Buying Online
What you mean like eBay? Sure I could - no tax no levy, but the shipping and possible duty charges crossing the border would be the same if not more to buy locally
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Ed, 1 Sep 2006 @ 11:37am

Bla Bla Bla...
That's it! Andy got the point! I'm outside Canada too. Despite the rivality of canadians and Americans. I must to say that I know good and wisdom people from both. But I'm not outside of the same problem here. I think the Govt. "minds" thinks strait off the "ease-way-of-get-some-extra-money-from-our-wallet" And... the history showm us that "ease money" = "worst usage" Cheers~
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 1:19pm

Ignorant fucking Americans. Arrogant pukes, no wonder their country is such a clusterfuck. It's populated by flat-headed trailer dwelling redneck trash. Have a good look at that cesspoll you call a nation. Fact is you need us more than we need you so have a seat morons.
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Michael Long, 1 Sep 2006 @ 1:30pm

Wrong war...
Leave it to some people to continually fight the wrong war. It's increasingly less likely that someone will burn a disc these days, as most pirated music goes directly from the internet to the computer to the mp3 player. Backups are to other hard drives.

All taxing CDs will do is limit their use even more.
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Canadian, 1 Sep 2006 @ 4:02pm

What's the problem
As a Canadian I have no problem with paying a levi to the artists so I can download music. This levi has been around since the old casette days and as such there has been no lawsuits in Canada over downloading music as frankly I pay for the right to do that.

If the recording industry doesn't pay the artists thier fair share of said levi then they should get thier act together and sue for it.

Music shouldn't be free - The artists have to make a living just as much as I do. I pay then for the music everytime I buy a blank cd though.

Also there is talk about expanding the tax to all blank media to cover mp3 players
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Thomas, 1 Sep 2006 @ 4:02pm

Re: taxes = criminal extortion
In response to number #24, we don't really get to vote in Canada (heh, where do we?). The only thing we are able to vote on is the people who are in charge. After that, it is our hope that they don't manage to screw things up (which they tend to do a lot). No matter how many times we send in petitions, the only things that actually get heard are the ones that make them or their buddies money.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 4:03pm

Re: Re: 51% of income?
"But please, keep toeing that line; it keeps you crazies out."

Try understanding some economics, and you'd understand that the inputs to the finished products got taxes, the inputs to those inputs got taxed, and everything down the line gets taxed. "embedded" taxes, so to speak.

Instead of being condescending, you could try to alleviate your ignorance, unless that's asking too much. Yes, Canadians probably do in the end give at least half of every earned dollar to the government, directly or indirectly.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 4:14pm

Re:
"Ignorant fucking Americans. Arrogant pukes, no wonder their country is such a clusterfuck. It's populated by flat-headed trailer dwelling redneck trash. Have a good look at that cesspoll you call a nation. Fact is you need us more than we need you so have a seat morons."

Brilliant! Most well articulated, educated comment I've seen all day!

Compare PPP GDP per capita between the US and Canada first to correct your own arrogance, then compare the astounding history of growth in capitalist nations such as Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea and the like along with a liberalizing (in a capitalist sense, not the american sense where liberal=socialist), then compare other historic and projected growth rates between super-socialist France and Germany, then YOU, sir, sit your arrogant, but now more educated, ass down.

People say Americans are arrogant, but I swear to god, the most truly arrogant, condescending and rude people I've ever met are all foreigners. We're content with pointing to simple macro-econ concepts that factually, mathematically prove socialism to be inefficient and leave it at that, the rest of the world tries to brow-beat and whine about imperialism. (Speaking of which, Europe appeased its way in to failure in WW2, doing it again with terrorism, and the failure of the French to grow a sack and send real troops to Lebanon, along with the UN's demands on Israel to essentially bend over and drop its pants, proves this beyond all doubt)
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Sep 2006 @ 4:17pm

Re: Re:
meant to say along with a liberalizing China. any economist can tell you China's explosive growth is IN SPITE OF a centralized command economy.
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Viking, 1 Sep 2006 @ 4:18pm

Canadians Say Please Tax Our Blank CDs Even More
This is bull crap, everyone I've talked to about this was NOT happy with a proposed increase in the levy on blanks.
I've been a computer tech for almost 10 years and have had the chance to pose this question to many of my customers, and they were most certainly NOT for a hike in this levy. The company that did this survey was most likely compensated for the results they came up with, becasue Canadians already get the shaft from being taxed six ways from sunday, and we really don't need or want another tax of ANY kind.
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Viking, 1 Sep 2006 @ 4:19pm

Canadians Say Please Tax Our Blank CDs Even More
This is bull crap, everyone I've talked to about this was NOT happy with a proposed increase in the levy on blanks.
I've been a computer tech for almost 10 years and have had the chance to pose this question to many of my customers, and they were most certainly NOT for a hike in this levy. The company that did this survey was most likely compensated for the results they came up with, becasue Canadians already get the shaft from being taxed six ways from sunday, and we really don't need or want another tax of ANY kind.
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Bacon Eater, 2 Sep 2006 @ 7:30am

?? - Bacon is good
I keep a stock pile of bacon just outside my igloo, so I'm good to go hunting seals in the morning. Tastes great, less filling.
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Andy, 2 Sep 2006 @ 5:29pm

Topher3105 (25) - You know Canadian cause you are one? That's amazing, so does that mean you know americans cause you arnt one? How is it you know that its not just people that are dumb? Are you really saying that candians are more likely to be scamed than Americans? Cause I was telemarketer for a little under 2 years and I can tell you this is not true.
The simple fact is that the avg. public can get tricked into almost anything. This is what Mike was talking about, these surveys are tricky and "everyone should realize they have little to no validity".
And Stan (27) good for you, you can pay for medical treatment, give yourself a pat on the back and stfu it clearly has nothing to do with you then.
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Danny, 3 Sep 2006 @ 2:49pm

Amused
As a foreigner who is neither Canadian nor American, but have visited both countries, I am amused from reading these posts how a simple item about a dubious survey can end up being a rallying post for either anti-Canadian or anti-American vitriol.There is no moderation here, just plain preening nationalistic righteousness.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2006 @ 2:36am

This just in: nobody gives a fuck about the price of blank cd's.

Harddisk prices are plummeting, and it's just a tad bit more expensive (over here) to just buy a harddisk and an enclosure, than buying a huge amount of cd's. And then I didn't even talk about the portability of the harddisk in comparison with the cd's, and the durability of a cd.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2006 @ 4:25pm

"People say Americans are arrogant, but I swear to god, the most truly arrogant, condescending and rude people I've ever met are all foreigners."

Well, lets do the math...
Every other country on earth thinks Americans are arrogant, ignorant cowboys that are full of their own flag waving shit. The only one that don't are well, Americans. 5 and half billion people can't be wrong. Pull your head out of your ass and have a seat jerk off.
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