Allofmp3 Doesn't Really Care If Russia Joins The WTO Or Not
from the try,-try-again dept
The US (thanks mostly to RIAA lobbyists influencing politicians) has been putting pressure on Russia to shut down the infamous Allofmp3.com as a condition of being admitted to the WTO. However, there's still the same old problem that Russian authorities don't really see Allofmp3 as violating local laws. The company itself has finally put out a statement on the matter basically saying that Russia's position in the WTO is of no concern to them, and they're just going to keep selling music as they've always done. In fact, they've picked up on the idea that all this anger over their existence is helping them on the marketing side (just as every other attempt to shut down online services has done). An Allofmp3 spokesperson is quoted as saying: "[US Trade Representative] Susan Schwab markets us so effectively -- she could already be our press secretary." They then reiterated that they're in complete compliance with Russian law, and that the complaint is really anger over them being a better, cheaper competitor.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Dogs and tails
If the US wants to shut down foreign music services they can just make it illegal for the credit card companies to process the payments the way they did with the gambling sites.
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The controversy Converted me
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Sad
As it stands however, if musicians (the vast number that don't subscribe to the myth that they should all make money from performances only) had the bulk of their online fans purchase through AllOfMp3.com, they'd be fucking broke.
I could care less about the cock-fight between the recording industry and pirate sites like AllOfMp3.com (of which the clones still march). Programmers and software publishers have been fighting this war far longer, and their methods have recently begun getting even more draconian with major vendors like Microsoft and Adobe signing on to "activation" schemes to stem the flow of pirated versions of their software. So, no... I don't think piracy or warez sales somehow force digital content publishers to "get it". When are they supposed to take the ball and go home?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the openness of "trying" something, before deciding to buy it... but to think that creators have a right not to have their representatives ridiculed and defied for doing their jobs. If I'm a musician, and I choose to get promoted by giving my song away to certain people... that's my choice. If people start setting up "pirate" houses, like the outfits in Russia and China... only "virtual", and start re-distributing my work without compensation... I've a right to be upset... as much as those that represent and manage my music.
Music is one of the most powerful and moving expressions of humanity on the face of the Earth. It'd be nice to think we existed in some wonderful wilderness of oral tradition where we share songs freely and no one cares about compensation and everyone had a "real" job... but it ain't so. As an illustrator, I'm happy about all the family and friends who have original artwork of mine. If they went around running off copies for hundreds of thousands of people... it kind of changes things.
If a company like AllOfMp3.com started offering downloads for books and videos and saying they were paying 2 cents a piece to some Russian organization that could give two shits... I'm sure it'd be as popular as sin, but it still... still... still... doesn't make them right.
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Foolishness
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This ,I like
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about pricing merchandise
1) What is the perceived value of this item to potential customers? In other words, "How high a price can we charge for the item before sales are hurt?"
2) If we can sell it for x and sell y quantity, is it worth doing? Repeat this until a viable answer is found. If not, don't sell the product - costs must be covered, and profits made.
Thinking about their costs of production will just make you bitter. How much is it worth to you?
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This is about the biggest fallacy in the anti-piracy argument. EVER.
The only hard part is the production of the content, which results in data. This includes the protection mechanism. Once this data becomes prepped for your media - IT CAN BE INFINTELY COPIED by the cheapest means ever, and no extra effort is required from the makers of the content itself.
The above is the reason why the middlemen like the RIAA give the REAL author pennies in exchange - after all, they are the ones duplicating the content in lieu.
Hardware?
A CD-Burner, standard, costs only $25 ea.
DVD Burners, $85 ea. Dual layer model, with Lightscribe.
(most people just buy a 5X duplicator or similar - $200)
You only really need 1 computer to do it all, and you don't need a good one - $500.
CDs are pennies apiece ($36 for a stack of 100).
DVDs are slightly more expensive ($36 for a stack of 50).
DO YOUR MATH.
Each CD sells for $15, cheapest price.
Each DVD sells for $30, cheapest price.
You'd be able to BREAK EVEN by the 2nd or 3rd media spindle or so, INCLUDING ARTIST ROYALTIES, and possible maintenance costs. That's about less than 300 discs total... now what are the sales of the media companies? They're in their tens of thousands.
Stores don't factor into the cost - THE STORES BUY THIS STUFF TO STOCK SHELVES, and THEY PAY YOU, NOT YOU PAY THEM.
I can have a full manufacturing suite in a month's salary, and I'm just someone on a starting pay.
Once again, the only hard part is the content - DO NOT FALL FOR RIAA PARTY LINES. They are the same lines that justify them paying pennies to the content producers!
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Re: A chicken passeth
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Can buy some legally on CD cheaper than allofmp3
Isn't it about time the artists represented by the RIAA got their act together and told them to drag themselves out of the 19th centrury into the 21st.
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Re: Sad
Actually.... most bands do make their money from performances... you think they get money from CD sales? Most bands get more pennies every time a cd is sold.
Bands basically become indentured servants for the record companies and spend years paying back their studio advance and recording/production costs (no the studio doesnt foot the bill). If they are lucky, they are hugely successful and can negotiate better deals.. The vast majority arent, and end up far worse off finacially than they were before they started.
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Just to further clarify, they get pennies for each album, that must then BE SPLIT BETWEEN THE BAND MEMBERS!
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If the recording industry and the copyright lobbyist have managed to pass such laws as the DMCA and extension of copyright (what is it now? 100 years?) They are not going to let themselves had by an obscure Russian company.
If the russians want to enter the WTO, and if the US buttheads about allofmp3, who do you think is gonna win?
Not a chance that you can get cheap music. Ever. Download as much as you can now, because you're soon going to be stuck with $22 per CD (no kidding, $22 bucks? what is it? 1952) or evil low bitrate crappy DRM'd 99 cents a song, that you don't own, that you can't resell or share.
Greed will win.
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Re:
Not to mention that part of the price you are paying IS for the production of the content. Studio time costs a lot of money, and home studios don't cut it for many applications. Then there's the cost of the gear, engineers, etc. You address only the raw media costs and the manufacturing of the physical product. That's not what you're paying for at all.
I just got Invisalign braces. They're just a bunch of clear pieces of plastic -- pennies to make. Yet I paid over $5000 for them. Why is that? Well, it takes a hell of a lot of work and expertise to invent those braces and to produce those precision pieces of plastic to specifications that will gently coax my teeth over time in the right direction. I'm not just paying for the plastic.
I agree, CDs are too expensive at $15 apiece, especially since a lot of today's bands do not put out enough quality to make a full album purchase a wise decision. About half that price, at $7 or $8, would be more like it.
Of course, that is about what I was paying for vinyl back in the '70s and '80s. And unlike CDs or digital media, vinyl deteriorates over time and can't be as quickly copied. Not to mention inflation. So, I'm not at all surprised that CDs cost what they do these days. Not happy with it, but not surprised either.
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While I agree with you otherwise - on cost of producing the content in the first place...
I think the above is another fallacy - both home users and pros use the exact same materials AND software you can get from the store. They don't get no "special batch" - because there ain't no "special batch". All it takes is a good graphic designer behind said computer to produce the extras, and it doesn't take much effort and know-how to loading and pressing the "copy" button on your duplicator.
Corporatism is all about cutting costs - what makes you think they'd use the cutting edge if they can get better quality for lower cost of production?
Oh, and making braces is FAR HARDER than burning a CD, because you aren't hammering a CD into the proper shape now, are you. All you are is running the likes of Nero over and over and over again.
There's nothing hard about that... it's just tedious, repetetive work, that's all.
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From Russia with IP
Why do they call music 'content' anyway? It's too much more than that to be called that. And, obligatory contracts are evil. If you start to think of writing of music as content to be manufactured for a deadline or quota, then that's what it eventually becomes.
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Soulfly
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Retarded
Same here . But they are legal in Russia , and with all due respect , US is doing a great job of giving them free publicity.
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Music Distribution
Question and debate, then action. Repeat...
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Re:
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Well, I'm missing as much math as the RIAA is overloading all its statistics with, so it'll all balance out one way or another.
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allofmp3 rocks on
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Re:
That shows me right there that you have no idea what you are talking about. Professionally pressed CDs have no relationship to home CD-Rs, other than that they superficially "look" about the same. And I don't even know what you're talking about regarding a "special batch," because I never mentioned anything like that. It's not a "special batch" -- it's a completely different production process.
Finally, you COMPLETELY missed the point I was making with the braces comparison. Of COURSE the actual manufacturing of braces is harder than burning a CD. That was intrinsic in the point I was making in the first place. The point being that the actual manufacturing of the plastic, or the burning of the CD, or whatever it may be, does not constitute the main cost of the product. You can't base your arguments solely on the costs of the raw materials and the production of the physical product, as you are doing, because that does not comprise the bulk of the cost of production of the ENTIRE PRODUCT, including the content (remember that word "content"?) that is on it.
Your arguments are horribly flawed, and your math is extremely fuzzy.
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Why focus on Allofmp3.com?
Bitching and moaning about AllofMP3.com is like harrassing a person for going 60 in a 60 MPH zone. If you think it's too fast for the area, phone your city rep - don't bitch at the driver.
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Re: Re: Sad
As long as we're dealing with opinions, in my opinion, we're in a place now where many musicians who create music aren't always playing venues as bands, or moreover, aren't playing as bands under their own names, and often release a CD album under independant labels in hopes of generating revenue from their music. From great books like "The Music of Business" and great software like Garageband, Digital Performer, and Logic, and awesome services like Cd Baby and iTunes, people are getting more opportunities to release their music and make money from it. This notion that you can paint all musicians/bands with the same brush, smile politely and take money out of their mouths by saying it wasn't much of their income to begin with... continues to be a bogus argument.
If I were to show you even one artist who feels like the buzz on their music seems to be growing but the music sales aren't allowing them to really make it anywhere... that's one artist too many.
It's really a bogus argument no matter how little you feel "big artists" make from Cds vs performances.
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Re: Why focus on Allofmp3.com?
STFU
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Meh.
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A note for the RIAA
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Re: Re: Re: Sad
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Just buy used CDs
And if you want to get really creative, buy used CDs, rip 'em, then sell them back. That way, you're paying as much as you would off this Russian site but it's (technically) legal.
Now, I don't sell the CDs back because I like keeping the physical disk, but that's just the way I justify being a cheapass when it comes to buying music without inviting a lawsuit from the RIAA.
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Re: Why focus on Allofmp3.com?
By all accounts, the law has been written, and its taking a while to be implemented (remember that story)... because this is clearly (to everyone) a "loophole", not a "perfectly valid application under the law", --a pretty bad "loophole"... which means everyone agrees this was NOT intended, and they're trying to close it. The U.S. and U.K. is already having trouble with legitimate advances in industrial production in countries like China... what, they should bend over for digital content through illegitimate sources too? Come on.
--So... not quite like saying 60 in a 60 MPH zone, more like 120 mph in a 60 MPH with an exemption due to a loophole that says technically you're not driving a car (government hasn't classified your vehicle yet), so you can't be otherwise fined, sued, or charged. Meanwhile, everyone is putting their fingers in their ears waiting for you to crash and hoping you don't take anyone with you on your off-ramp to the pearly gates (or is that highway to hell?)
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Allofmp3 works perfect, sounds great, good price (even though that price has tripled since all this publicity- songs used to be 1cent/MB, now its 3cents/MB.)
No one reads the booklets in cd covers- what could they possibly say that would be of any interest to anyone. No one even keeps the CD case for that matter.
Artists DO NOT HAVE TO SIGN UP WITH RECORDING COMPANIES. If your music is any good it doesnt take much to get it heard. Radio stations LOVE finding good music, makes them look good and gives you a reason to listen to them.
Sell the song on your website which costs a couple dollars a day to run if you bring any traffic at all.
Dont complain to the RIAA about them being an old business model, complain to the artists for using that old business model.
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Re:
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Re: allofmp3 rocks on
Several models of cars sold by many auto makers are indeed sold at a substantial loss. Ford Focus and virtually all VW cars sold in the US come to mind. Considering Ford burned through 8 billion dollars this year, the losses appear substantial.
Could CD prices be made lower? Probably. Is there a point at which losses start to be created? Yes. Are we communists that do things for zero profit? Maybe you are, but generally, No.
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So many misguided people...
Allofmp3 is perfectly legal in Russie. they are not operating through a loophole, they are operating under the principles that the copyright laws in russie require them to operate under.
THEY ACTUALLY PAY THE ARTISTS, JUST LIKE THEY ARE REQUIRED TO UNDER THEIR LAWS.
The reason the **AA doesn't like it is becasue the law does not require obtaining a license to resell copyrighted works. It specifically ALLOWS you to resell without being authroized. HOWEVER, for every copy resold, you are required to payback X% of the original purchase price to the copyright holders.
Noone is stealing anything, and if the artists aren't getting paid, its because the copyright holder (**AA) is keeping all the money and not sending any of it to the artists.
Once again, the true "thief" here is the RIAA and not the store doing the reselling.
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Re: So many misguided people...
Get a dictionary and come back when you know what "theif" means. Its NOT legal outside of Russia, and AllofMp3 says that on their website, and makes NO effort to obey the laws of other countries. How hard would it be to block U.S. customers? VERY EASY. Are they unaware of the legality of their operation with U.S. customers? Nope. Get a new argument, your current one is very very broken. Like a record.
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Re: Re: So many misguided people...
Neither is any buyer.
You really are buying everything the RIAA is saying, hook line and sinker.
what a great sucker you make.
(and.. uh,, WTF woudl they want to block USA customers for? where do you get your brilliant business ligic from?)
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Re:
Oh, is it the publicity that's raising prices? Do you read the news? AllofMp3 knows its not in the right in terms of its pricing, and they're making moves to bring their prices up to reflect what they need to if they're to be charging for proper licensing. They're making most of their money on the float anyway.
This is what they've said ("slowly raising prices"). Of course we all know that they're just making more money for themselves as they wait for the Russian law to pass closing the loophole. Once that happens, they'll need a lot more than a price hike to figure out how to stay "legal" even among Russian customers.
Slowly grinds the wheels of justice.
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Re: Sad
In russian law internet download service has the same consideration than radio.
They only need to pay a flat fee per song and has no need to ask permision, so legally they are just a radio on demand and from that emision you can do a copy as always you have been able to do with radio.
So they are steling in the same way that FM radio do.
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Re: Re: Re: So many misguided people...
Wow. Someone better tell the U.S. trade representative that AllOfMp3 is "totally legal" in the U.S., 'cause apparently our government doesn't think so! And as for what AllofMp3.com says:
[[ As for foreign buyers, "we announce on our website to every user that he or she should check the laws of the country in which he lives," Levitov said. ]]
This is the equivalent of covering ones ears and saying "we know no-theeng...!" Please. I don't mind you having a different opinion, but at least get your facts straight and make an HONEST argument... not one you know full well is full of holes.
I'm all for the future of music distribution and I'll cheer change on... but AllOfMp3 isn't putting money in the hands of any artists. They know this. They're just paying ROMS. Western musicians aren't seeing diddly squat. Don't argue its cheaper... it IS. Don't argue that makes it right simply because its cheaper. It AIN'T.
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Re: Re: Sad
Um, they are making the copies FOR you... in several formats... its all interactivy... and... its not even "free" to "tune in"... --they're not "streaming" or "broadcasting" anything, the legal language of the Russian law is just out of date (hey, I don't blame them, they're pretty busy holding the country together), so that its the closest definition even though its not what they're doing.
I get it though... your fingers are in your ears and your hands over your eyes. Not sure how you got 4 arms but... ok. I understand... you're the person who gets the "fringe benefit" to pretend that a crime isn't being committed. Suddenly things get all "blurry" and hard to see through.
The human mind has an unparalleled capacity to rationalize anything if its in their interests. --Personally? My only vested interest is that I know musicians personally, and while its feasible to put their songs online from their own stores or through iTunes, I'm pretty clear that sites like AoMp3 are just bandits... worse than the RIAA, but they're bribing music fans from the back of their truck with a country specific loophole, so its worse.
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Re: Re:
They "look" the same because they "are" the same - why do you think they are different?
Oh, because of that extra track which keeps the DRM in? No, that's done by the burning software. CDs and DVDs are the same all around. The only time where there can BE a material difference is when DVDs start coming with fancy RFID chips embedded inside.
And different process? The only thing that's different is them using a duplicator of higher capacity, printers that can print on more CDs at once, AND more people to do the same thing, AND the manufacturers getting a higher discount because they purchase all their raw materials in bulk, straight from the factory.
What, you think this one requires specialized machinery and machining processes? At the most they'd buy the machines for stuffing and closing the CD case, but what DO you think CD manufacturing is like? A motherboard factory?
"That was intrinsic in the point I was making in the first place. The point being that the actual manufacturing of the plastic, or the burning of the CD, or whatever it may be, does not constitute the main cost of the product. You can't base your arguments solely on the costs of the raw materials and the production of the physical product, as you are doing, because that does not comprise the bulk of the cost of production of the ENTIRE PRODUCT, including the content (remember that word "content"?) that is on it."
Yes, I did include the content, but my point was that the content is only PRODUCED ONCE - after that it can be copied as many times as possible, with no extra effort whatsoever required by the manufacturer.
Unless you are telling me that people literally bundle the artists into the studio AGAIN just to make "This CD Copy # 2".
While without content a CD can't exist - Aren't we placing too much emphasis on something that occurs only once in the product's entire lifespan?
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Let's discount the manufacturing process, which we seem to agree on.
1. Do braces come with "content"? Nope.
2. Does the making of a CD require the expertise of making braces? Nope. And if you're going to argue about the expertise of making "content" - see point (1).
My logic ain't perfect - is yours?
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Re: Re: Re: Sad
Kind of like satellite radio.
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Re: Re:
Not quite. You seem to believe that the braces are mass produced. They are not. They are custom made and fitted for your personal case. The cost of production is far more than mere "pennies".
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Re: Retarded
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Re: Just buy used CDs
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Re: Re: Re: Re: So many misguided people...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So many misguided people...
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What's the difference between
So there yo have it. There are considerably higher costs in setup, and the media IS NOT the same. That's why you can tell the difference between a CD-R and a Pressed Disc when you look at them... you can see the dye.
Cleverboy?
Your arguments regarding Copyright law -which is broken, and pharmaceuticals from Canada are the same... An example of price of a given item being artificially inflated by, what amounts to, a cartel. Calling people "Commies" because they disagree with you speaks more to flaws in your character than theirs. Here's a quarter -- now go get your brain dried too. =)
The recording industry, as well as a handful of others, are trying desperately -and in vain- to cement their positions as "middle-men" in the sale of something in a market/distribution system that no longer needs them. They are going the way of the Dodo.
Of course, this is just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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Re: What's the difference between
You're off target... my arguments were NOT about justifying cartels etc, they were examples of how its not simply the U.S. or its citizenry thinking that its laws should be enacted in other countries, so much as letting other countries know that our laws apply to our citizens and that those laws should be respected when dealing WITH our citizens, especially while such citizens are operating out of this country. Make sense?
If a U.S. citizen chooses to repatriate and move into another country so that they can live outside of the laws of the land, they're free to do so. No country should except that their citizens are free to defy the law, as long as its on the Internet, and the server is not on American soil. Were that true, I'm sure the pedophiles would be ab-SOLUTE-ly euphoric. Not to mention those recently bummed out gambling website owners.
Well, back to this argument... yeah, I'm all for pushing a marketing and distribution system that "no longer needs" the recording industry middlemen. I am... but AllofMp3 doesn't represent that.
They're not a "distribution" system... or you'd be hearing how they're making deals with independant labels... On their website, you'd see a page that says "Want to see your music on AllofMp3.com? Contact our business relationship department, etc, etc." You see independant artists giving each other high fives and saying "FUCK THE INDUSTRY, we have ALL of MP3! Awesome!!! Fuck yeah!"
Reality: [INSERT SOUND OF CRICKETS]
They're the back of a truck, selling stolen goods. They're the virtualized version of the crooks that the recording industry combats by "dumping" product onto the streets at fire-sale prices in smaller markets they can't bother with. I mean... but, that all said... let's support legitimate on-DRM places like eMusic. Why celebrate a theif, just because they pay your patriarchal part lip-service for pennies? I mean... sure, it feels good, but don't you just feel a little dirty?
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The bottom line...
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Re: The bottom line...
If you want to sit there all day lifting digital music off the air waves or the Internet radio streams, there's nothing to stop you... for personal use. It's about not letting everyone become aggregate distributors en masse (as what happened with Napster). It always has been. "Where did you get the latest X album? Why... I got it off the Internet for FREE!" Why pro-ponents and opponents insist on all the FUD is truly beyond me.
So... yes, if you want your iTunes library in a different format, you're going to have to do some work. Just like if you wanted all your LPs in a different format... or that smooth cassette remix your pal gave you back in the day... or that 8-track soundtrack for Star Wars you used for your 7th grade humanities project... or that Limited Edition Coca-cola "I'd like to Teach the World to Sing" record your dad gave you when you were 10.
Hm. I think that line said "TMI" back there... we've PASSED and are passing the line where "quality" will make a difference. The format wars are about to come to an abrupt end, and so... in fact... will the long tradition of reselling people content on different physical formats. The industry is moving to technologically enforced "standards" using DRM. Big deal.
Its all the piracy that's driving them to make copying harder and harder to do. People are creating the problem while thinking they're "resisting" it. Back in the day, they couldn't tell people were doing it. Now that they have that technology, its making them crap their pants like an adulterer's spouse running "FamilySpy 3.5". Enough to drive ya to do some down right unsavory things. Just stop sleeping around on them for christsakes... they'll snap out of it. I promise.
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Re: Sad
If AllofMp3 is doing things legally (with their licenses in place and what not) shouldn't the money that they are paying to whomever in order to be able to sell music online be distributed to the artists accordingly?
Might it be a problem between the people AllofMp3 gives money to and the artists?
Again, I don't know how the whole thing works, but it would seem logical for AllofMp3 to give a percentage of the money they make to the recording industry and the recording industry distributes the money to the artists.
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Re: Sad
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An industry which bent over backwards to introduce enforced obsolescence and licensing instead of ownership, long before the DMCA was even formulated?
...if they couldn't snap out of it at a time piracy was purely underground, they probably won't snap out of it now.
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Re: Re: Just buy used CDs
But the difference is that it's technically not illegal. And why is it not illegal???
Because the major resellers would lose a lot of business... and I'm guessing they won't allow that crap to be passed into law.
Good or bad, that's the way the system is, so as pawns, we might as well make the most out of it :-)
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Thank God!
Thanks --
Roger
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Re: Re: Re: Just buy used CDs
That's pretty loopy logic, don't you think? If you do your homework... you can understand a few things about how the recording industry sees it. According to them, your "license" is the physical CD itself. This longheld truth is what prompted the original Mp3.com's my.mp3.com service to assume that confirmation of the CD's possession (whether by software process or record of online purchase), should entitle users to virtual access to their music library anywhere in perpetuity. Unfortunately, it was a slight leap too far for a number of sketchy reasons. In the minds of the record companies, if you destroy the CD, your license is history. While they also tend to say that the license is non-transferable, that's bullshit as people have been reselling used media for a good long while, and that's never made any sense (meaning good luck in the courts, guys).
So, is it anything like AllofMp3? No. If you still think it is, splash cold water in your face and stare in the mirror repeating "no" at least 10 times. Repeat as necessary. Equating the two things is basically an attempt to ascribe more legitimacy to that Russian warez site that it deserves. Just call it what it is and argue from there. Moving the pieces when no one is supposed to be looking still doesn't change the game.
Ah... I see how it works. Musicians should ask you how much they should charge you, and after pulling together a general consensus, they should charge only that, or you'll "happily" steal from them... How sporting of you. (YIKES.) Sounds keen. Maybe that's the model of the future, PricelineEXTREME!. Dunno... sounds like the mafia though.
Why do people insist on acting like over-priced music (in their view) is crack and they need their fix? Nancy had it right, kids. If price ain't right, just say "no"...! Are they already halcyon days, when consumer objection was voiced by a dirth of commercial interest in the product?
Boy... when consumer replicators start selling and people start sharing pattern buffer data for physical matter reintegration online, the world will be screwed all over again.
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Well, they are, considering that most of the necessities today are derived from monopoly. Even unqualified desk clerks these days need to know Office, the M$ one, before someone decides to hire 'em, you know - and of course, we have the oil issue. It's changing 'round, sure, but you won't see the change in another 5 years or so.
But yes, at least you can say no to music for now.
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Hehe
I was in the store a few days before listening to it, I woulda bought it but I felt 15 euros was way to much.
How much goes to the artits from CD sales? 3% of their earnings?
I've always hated paying so much for music CDs, I love this whole download / piracy thing you can get stuff for cheap or free.
Mind you I have no problem dishing out 50 euros for a good video game (world of warcraft?) and then dishing out further 15 euros a month if its worth it.
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They encode it and send it to you as packages you are the one that take them and make the physical copy. Do you know what is the difference between a streamed mp3 song and a no streamed one? The program you use to access it. If you capture an streamed file and you open it with a normal reproductor it work without flaw.
The law is not outdated just different, basically any form of no physical transmission has the same consideration that "radio".
There are several flat fee policies in USA copyright law if I am not mistaken. So I suppose you must cancel that too, So no more fotocopiers or music radio anymore?
Who are you to decide what should get a flat fee and what should be negociate case by case?
If that flat fee is an option and you are talking about something new what is wrong with that option.
You has to understand is only a loophole from the point of view of the RIAA, not from the point of view of russian law. The russian law say that any method of no physical transmission of copyrighted material must/could operate by a flat fee licence. You can discuss what was intended when it was writen but it looks to me that they intended to be quite inclusive. You say is outdated law others could considered a very advanced law with a great future proyection.
The truth is russian law is that way and the internatinal WTO treaties don´t say anything in one way or another so no loophole, well maybe in the WTO treaties but usually thats the way all the international treaties are the loophole of ones are the correct interpretation of anothers.
They don´t steal anything they pay to the collection agency (ROMS) that would agreagete the incomes and the music company must collect their money from the agency that would give it share to the artist, thats the way all the flat fees work. The artist isn´t geting anything because the RIAA (IFPI) dosen't like it and wish to change it so it left the money at ROMS and do not collect the money for the artist as it should because do not like to accept this situation.
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If allofmp3 is breaking the law...
So I am forced to the conclusion that AoMP3 is not illegal. What impresses me about AoMP3 is not the price so much as the convenience. You can purchase your music in a high-quality DRM-free format. I might pay the RIAA for such music... but they are not interested.
If AoMP3 are "bandits", what does that make the RIAA? Mafiosi.
The RIAA have done a wonderful job of alienating an entire generation of would-be customers. The sooner they stop treating their customers like criminals, fire their lawyers, give themselves a pay cut and start paying the musicians, the sooner they will start winning back the hearts and minds of the people who will keep them in business.
Like that's going to happen.
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You want quotes from Russian legislators and AllofMp3.com also calling it a loophole? I'm too lazy, but you should be able to find them yourself. Don't say things in hopes of them being true. Know that they are. Just make an honest argument. That's all I ask.
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Rubbish
When you buy a retail CD, the retailer, wholesaler and manufacturer have to get their money. There are transportation costs. Looking at the figures at...
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/6558540/walmart_wants_10_cds
these costs account for $9 of a $16 CD. Add a dollar back for hosting and payment processing and you have $8 for an "online" CD purchase.
And everybody still gets paid.
Did I miss anything?
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Be Content!
Because to these people, that's all it is - a product to be marketed, hyped, sold... and dumped on the scrapheap when it is no longer profitable.
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The King's Shilling
Last time I looked, there was no trade embargo with Russia.
It is perfectly legal for me to fly to Moscow, buy music in a store and bring it home with me.
I find it ironic that the record companies can outsource production without the slightest hesitation - a process that may cost jobs in the US... but when consumers outsource their purchasing, they start yelling. Globalization cuts both ways.
"Its NOT legal outside of Russia"
Show me the law that applies, and explain how it applies to items purchased overseas.
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How about this...?
http://www.museekster.com/files/press-release%20ROMS.doc
Ok... B-But, they were paying the artists anyway, right? ROMs has in the past, claimed to be a member of CISAC (the International Confederation of Societies of Authors and Composers). Anyone bother to report on their expulsion at the end of 2004 (pretty much two years ago exactly)? Anyone care to read WHY they expelled ROMS?
http://www.cisac.org/web/Content.nsf/Popup?ReadForm&Page=Article&Lang=EN&Alias= Web-2005-03-ROMS
Sounds like a man without legal options to me.
As of September 1st, its never been more true. Has anything changed in the last 39 days? I'm guessing... "no". Yet, people continue to act as if the old argument is still in effect... "Me know noootheeenk!" Just because AllofMp3.com or comments regarding legitimacy through ROMs doesn't have a legal leg to stand on anymore... and as such, will remain quiet while scratching their collective chins... doesn't mean they win arguments by virtue of silence. I'm sure ROMs makes loads of money through AllofMp3 over the years.
Will there be foot shooting and face spiting? Will Russian law be enforced? Stay tuned true believers as the world watches.
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Show me!
Show me the law that applies.
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Okay, Cleverboy...
The IFPI has tried to shut down AoMP3. And failed. More than once. The obvious conclusion is that AoMP3 is legal in Russia. Saying otherwise don't make it so.
It is also perfectly legal to purchase music anywhere, and last time I looked, music was not on any embargo list.
So educate us. Tell us which law specifically makes AoMP3 illegal. It's easy to say "it's illegal in this country", but until you point to a specific law, nobody is going to take you seriously. And rightly so.
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Re: Show me!
Seems simple. Does that work for you or are you looking toward twisting or reformulating the question some? AllofMp3 is illegal here, its illegal in Russia. All I'm saying.
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Re:
Repeat after me: "Professional CD inserts do not come from inkjet printers or copiers, they come from offset presses." For a single copy, the inkjet is faster & cheaper. For a thousand copies, the press wins. And again...
Repeat after me: "Professionally produced CDs and DVDs are not burned, they are pressed."
These processes aren't producing five or ten at a time, they are producing THOUSANDS per hour, and at a cost far, FAR less than you cite for some knock-off home pirate setup.
Professionally pressed CDs, with insert, shrink-wrapped & delivered in quantity, are around 50 to 70 cents a piece, and the contracted manufacturer is still making a profit at that price.
Do you really believe that Sony has some warehouse full of monkeys pressing record 10,000 times every time a band puts out a new album?
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The problem is that it's completely free to copy things. You do the work once, and you can make however many copies of it for a negligible incremental cost. So people see very little value in it. And even then, artists as a whole have been selling MORE cd's lately (check the books... it's just that the market hasn't been growing like they're wanting it to, not that they're actually losing marketshare).
I pay for concerts. I have no problem, and rather enjoy, supporting bands I like. But their recordings aren't anything they work for. It should be like an advertisement. Most smaller bands are finding that free mp3's really expand the number of CD's they sell, and the number of people that listen to them. It's only the big names that it hurts, and most of those people haven't done work in years, so I find it hard to feel sympathy.
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Should painters/illustrators get paid for every print of their masterpiece? Should inventors of such wonders as velcro or duct tape amass fortunes on their past labors? Should writers continue to live off of sales from the books they've written? When Prince liberated his music and changed his name, was it all a moot point considering? The answer to this and many other questions can be yours if... you only have a clue.
Come on... is that really an argument?
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Because I know better. Because I've done this before. Because pressed CDs have been around longer than CD-R. Because of any hundred reasons that you seem to insist on not hearing other folks tell you. I'll be generous and assume it's because you're young and naive.
And different process? The only thing that's different is them using a duplicator of higher capacity, printers that can print on more CDs at once, AND more people to do the same thing, [...]
Oh... wow. it looks like you really do believe Sony has a warehouse with 10,000 CD burning monkeys. Sorry to burst that bubble for you.
OK, here's the scoop on the real world. The 10,000 monkeys thing doesn't fly because labor is expensive. Automated machinery is expensive. BUT, and this is crucial, you only have to buy the machines once. Labor you have to pay. And pay. And pay. For a one-time fee of the salary for 10,000 monkeys for a year, they can buy a machine that will do the same hourly work, 24 hours a day, year after year after year, and only have to pay one guy to watch it just to be sure everything is running smoothly. Which do you think is the better investment?
What, you think this one requires specialized machinery and machining processes? At the most they'd buy the machines for stuffing and closing the CD case, but what DO you think CD manufacturing is like? A motherboard factory?
I shudder to think what your vision of a motherboard factory might be. Probably something along the line of 10,000 monkeys with hobby-kit breadboards building them out one by one. But, assuming you do know what a circuit board factory looks like, then yes, pretty much closer to that than some guy with a PC and a CD burner.
Large scale manufacturing of just about anything - from clothing to automobiles to the humble twinkie - bears such little semblance to what it would look like at home as to be nearly unrecognizable. That includes CDs.
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So you are telling me that you can find a politician that when presured for a powerfull foreing country and the lobby behind it would say
I´m sorry is not what we intended with that law!
And a company that is getting a huge publicity out of it going along with it.
for me if you can´t close it in an ademdum or with a decree is not a loophole.
you don't need to rewrite a hole article of a law to close a loophole.
Although we can just be discussing the definition of loophole.
For me a loophole is if the law did not say a thing about it so you can move in an alegal area.
If the law say you can or must do something and it have unexpected consecuences could be a bad law (or a very good depend of the consecuence) but not a loophole.
If the problem is a loophole is easy to close in the second case you need to rewrite a law and could be a lot more difficult. Rewriting laws always is.
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Checkout point #5 on their site (with translations from Bull-ese): http://allofmp3.com/statement.shtml
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driving over Babushka's in your mercedes
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If the Russkies shut them down they will probably pop up again like a whack-a-mole in some other country. They only need to worry about setting up their distribution servers in a "digital friendly" country, The task of collecting, ripping and preparing the content could be done anywhere or everywhere. They'll also need to find some ways for people to make payments, but considering how well money talks in this world that won't be a problem either.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that they have hot standbys ready to go in some far flung corner(s) of the world. Perhaps that's why the Russians are so hesitant to shut them down; they know that it won't be permanent but instead will just lose some jobs for the locals.
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You mean Dimitry Sklyarov?
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Yes and no
So that, too, was perhaps a bad example.
The music industry, OTOH, offshored and outsourced production, and are getting upset because some of us are outsourcing our purchases.
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Last time I looked...
Unless you are Adobe.
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Re: Last time I looked...
>> Russian companies."
Koff... this is a remarkeably stupid comment. Do you know what the word "extradition" means? I'm curious. Hint: "Not everyone in the world is subject to diplomatic immunity". Go to Google news... and in quotes, type this: "extradition to the U.S."
They don't pull these words out of asses. They actually are used out there in the big blue world. Also... I won't get mad, but Russian laws apply to Russian companies too. I clearly outlined those laws above, as quote by ROMs and AllofMp3. Don't be a dullard. Maybe you're intentionally being all "troll-like" and ignoring rationale discourse, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.
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about making cd
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