Would Jesus Get Music From P2P Networks?

from the respect-my-moral-authoritah dept

Thu, Oct 12th 2006 9:31am — Carlo Longino

Movie studios and record labels have tried a number of different approaches to fighting piracy: lawsuits, law changes, hacking, even setting up their own private police force -- just about everything except, you know, actually trying to compete against it. Movie studios have also tried to guilt people to stop downloading movies, by having ridiculously well-paid actors tell moviegoers that downloading hurts the movie industry's "little people", and now the Christian music industry is getting in on the act by trying to cast downloading and file-sharing as a moral issue. While apparently the RIAA and MPAA feel that the mere existence of piracy morally justifies their extreme actions, the president of a gospel music trade group says his organization "certainly" can address piracy as a moral issue and expects it to better resonate with his audience than the general public. Of course, just because they make religious music doesn't mean they're too different from the secular groups, as the guy says of downloading, "It's like stealing. You wouldn't walk into a Christian bookstore and steal a Bible off the shelf," when, of course, copyright infringment isn't theft at all. Apparently a lot of young Christian music fans see downloading as "helping spread the word" -- which, either in a promotional or religious sense, they're doing, since Christian music sales are growing strongly. So chalk up one more similarity to those Hollywood heathens: these religious music groups badly misunderstand the value of free music as a promotional tool, whether it's promoting other products or their religious message.

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nd, 12 Oct 2006 @ 9:51am

Irony is that the recent surge in Christian music sales was driven by increased p2p downloading. From the same LAT article:

It's hard to imagine fans with music tastes eclectic enough to embrace all the artists on that list. But as a collective, the sector just got some great news. Christian music sales, both on CD and via paid download, over the first six months of 2006 were 11% higher than during the same period in 2005. That double-digit surge stands in stark contrast to the rest of the music industry, which experienced a 4% decline during the same time period. And no other genre has a 2006 sales jump anywhere near the level of the Christian sector.

When the six-month numbers were released, industry leaders said the figures showed that efforts such as the "Millions of Wrongs" campaign were making in-roads. But that view may be a leap of faith, says Joe Fleischer, chief of marketing for Big Champagne, a top barometer of online media activity.

Fleischer said the uptick in Christian music sales was more than matched by a jump in Christian music that was traded on peer-to-peer networks, e-mailed as file attachments and (the new popular mode of youth distribution) via digital files tucked into instant messages.
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Cleverboy, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:08am

Free Music as Promotional Tool?
"So chalk up one more similarity to those Hollywood heathens: these religious music groups badly misunderstand the value of free music as a promotional tool, whether it's promoting other products or their religious message."

Wow... I can truly respect the argument up until that last sentence. Music companies for YEARS have respected the value of FREE MUSIC as a promotional tool. Is that your argument?

Viewing piracy as "competition" is simply smart, but a line is stil drawn in the sand as to whether it should somehow coerce publishers into not trying to enforce their rights under a capitalist society.

"Free music as promotion" does not equate to piracy. Don't get it twisted.
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Propstm, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:14am

Jesus could work miracles
The man could turn water into wine.

He would take a stack of blank CDs and turn them into the Beatles discography.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:20am

JESUS SAVES!!

Cleric takes half damage....
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NSMike, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:33am

Bible thieves?
Is this the best example he could come up with of theft?

First of all...

1. Not a lot of people are after bibles. They're often given away, and there are many free bibles online.

2. Most Christians, if someone walked into their bookstore, and stole a bible, would let the theif go and let him keep the bible, with the advice, "Give it a read."

Okay, maybe not most Christians, but those with a good understanding of their faith would.
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Wizard Prang, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:34am

Lest we forget...
...Downloaded music is simply a mechanism; a tool. It is neither good nor evil, moral nor immoral.

The question is not one of right or wrong but one of "am I costing someone a sale?". This is where current copyright laws falls down; this is not a question of copying but of commercial exploitation.

For some people, downloading music is like listening to the radio - a way to sample the music before making a purchasing decision (albeit without the shackles of radio station playlists). For others it is like taping off the radio - a poor-quality substitute for those who cannot afford to buy. For still others, it is a way to freeload without buying anything, even though you can afford to.

The RIAA wants to believe that all of us fall into the last group. However, the spike in Christian music sales, along with the success of groups like the Arctic Monkeys, have proved them spectacularly wrong.

Nothing in this article comes as a surprise - my conclusion is that those who listen to Christian Music would have the ethical restraint to go out and buy it if they liked it to a greater extent than the general population.

Or, as the Master would put it, "Render unto Caesar..."
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Nick, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:36am

I think Jesus would support it. Think about all those fishermen he cheated by copying those fish! Thats 5000 lost sales.. or does it not count because they weren't going to buy them anyway?
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Wizard Prang, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:36am

Funny you should say that...
"let the theif go and let him keep the bible, with the advice, "Give it a read.""

A friend had a bible stolen recently. His only comment was "Perhaps they needed it more than I".
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Wizard Prang, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:38am

Good point!
Nice example... and the closest analogy to file copying that I have seen.
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MD, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:38am

Would Jesus Get Music From P2P Networks?
I doubt someone with such supposed powers would need a computer let alone a P2P network...
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jsnbase, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:41am

Re: Jesus could work miracles
He would take a stack of blank CDs and turn them into the Beatles discography.

Big deal, I can do that.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:45am

It is better to GIVE that to receive.
Sharing is caring.

Both are Christian phrases.

Besides, how can you sell music you gave to God?
He owns it and I am sure he would want you to share his praise with the world.
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Crosbie Fitch (profile), 12 Oct 2006 @ 11:02am

Bibble babble
Why copyright the bible? The church is in it for the money.

Would a Christian restrict the liberty of their brother simply in order to line their own pockets?

Copyright is not Christian.

(¢)
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The Truth Beacon, 12 Oct 2006 @ 11:07am

Entitlement should be a crime
The whole copyright issue is such a double-edge sword.

While downloading form P2P or anywhere shouldn't be considered immoral nor illegal, it should require actual ownership of those items. Downloading music and keeping it indefinately without purchasing it would be literal theft. If you don't like it enough to buy it, then don't listen to / read / watch it - simple as that. If you own it, then by all means you should be allowed to download it, copy it, do whatever you want with it since you OWN it. Too many people who argue in favor of P2P don't distinct ownership from stealing because they think there is some magical difference between something someone created on paper and something someone created electronically. They still created it - usually from nothing. It should be cheaper to purchase something online because it costs them less to distribute it, but it should be free ONLY once you have already purchased it. You shouldn't automatically get it for free, nor should you have to pay repeatedly for the same thing.

Those of you who think I am wrong may feel free to spend your time creating something and then giving it away for free to everyone. I know that Open-Source works for the most part, but it is NOT representative of real open-market economics. Try creating something from scratch and profit SOLELY off donation from EVERYONE including companies and see how well you do - you're asking the music artists to do the same thing.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 11:09am

Re:
It is better to GIVE that to receive.
Sharing is caring.

Both are Christian phrases.

One of them is a Man Law...
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 11:10am

Idol
Why should music not be free online. I propose chargeing more to record it. If you have a very poupular star then they would be paid to record and not pay to record. Then you release it online for promotion for free. The real money could be made by apperance in person preforming it split with the promotor and artist. The idea of making money off of something it took no work to make is not very free market is it. This would apply to movies as well. Everyone gets most of there money upfront. While the consumer gets break.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 11:10am

Idol
Why should music not be free online. I propose chargeing more to record it. If you have a very poupular star then they would be paid to record and not pay to record. Then you release it online for promotion for free. The real money could be made by apperance in person preforming it split with the promotor and artist. The idea of making money off of something it took no work to make is not very free market is it. This would apply to movies as well. Everyone gets most of there money upfront. While the consumer gets break.
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XaioXaio, 12 Oct 2006 @ 11:14am

WWJD
What would Jesus Download?
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sean, 12 Oct 2006 @ 11:21am

Re: WWJD
You beat me to it I hit F5 before I went to post and there it was.

Time to silk screen 5,000 What Would Jesus Download t's with a portion of the profit going the the church

*Do not read this it is not important a 1% profit share will be donated
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chris (profile), 12 Oct 2006 @ 11:42am

Re: Entitlement should be a crime
If you don't like it enough to buy it, then don't listen to / read / watch it - simple as that.

it's not that plain nor is anything resembling simple. you can totally like something and not like it enough to pay for it. that's why people wait for movies to come out on video, or on cable, or even network TV instead of going to see them in theaters. that's why radio works, why libraries work, and that's why downloading works... people can try whatever they like, risk free, and then decide what to put their money into.

so based on that logic, borrowing a book from a friend is stealing? (if i want read it, i should buy it) how about having my friend drive me to the airport? (if i want to fly i should take a cab or pay to park my car) what about splitting a pizza with my wife? (if she wants pizza she can buy her own) what about inviting my friends over to watch a rented movie or a pay per view event?

how am i supposed to find out if i like something enough to buy it if i can't experience it without buying it? in the real world you can test drive a car or sit in a chair before you buy it. how do you test drive intellectual property before you pay for it?
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Comboman, 12 Oct 2006 @ 12:07pm

Jesus comments on filesharing
"You received free, give free" - Mathew 10:8
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chucklebutte, 12 Oct 2006 @ 12:26pm

piss on god and his music religion is one of the main reasons this country is in shambles, we have enough propaganda already do we really need more? Get with the times there is no god :/ people who believe in god are wasting thier time so why does techdirt gotta waste mine? most "techy" people ( people who read techdirt) are very smart individuals that can see through a mockery of humanity (what religion is after all) and scoff at the notion of an all powerful being that farted us out his ass come on people get with the times, there is no god! god is not news. now i know people gonna say hey! its about piracy and i will say and? piss on god! stupid religous nuts jesus LIVED with the poor the thieves the criminals, if jesus was here now he would be hanging out with me downloading mp3's of POD while we light up a doobie! last i checked christians dont open up thier homes to crooks and rapists but shit jesus would. its sad that people that waste so much time in church and waste so much of thier life for god have never read the fucking bible lol piss on god and religion! make the world a safer place empty the prisons and fill them with all the christian for thier crimes against humanity!
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ULuckyImNotGod, 12 Oct 2006 @ 12:35pm

Re: chucklebutte
Someday, when you stand before the very God you say "piss on", if you haven't woken up to the reality of Hiim, He will be sad, broken and hurt deeper than any pain you can even begin to imagine, for having to do it...then He will tell you to depart from His presence, and banish you to hell for eternity...thats a shame, when obviously at least YOU think you're so smart...
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nunya_bidness, 12 Oct 2006 @ 12:44pm

Re: Re: chucklebutte
My god is so forgiving and caring, that no matter what you say or think of her/him, when you cease to exist, you will lie in the ground like everyone else. There is no such thing as Hell.
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meOIP, 12 Oct 2006 @ 12:51pm

As a little guy I'm going to stick with artists who embrace my like for easily found cheap music. I bet I find more artists I like trying out stuff then buying the same old 'safe music' I'll expand my taste and may buy a few CD's. Music (particularly Christian) hasn’t changed much in the past few years so I don’t need new CDs. My old DMB sounds like the new one I see no need to upgrade.
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friday, 12 Oct 2006 @ 12:53pm

Re:
maybe christian cd sales went up b/c christians actually pay for a good deal of their music.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 1:21pm

Re:
Think about all those fishermen he cheated by copying those fish!
And the loaves of bread and the bakers!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 1:24pm

i don't believe there is a copyright on the bible. therae are differnet versions, and whatnot. so stealing it from the bibleshop isn't doing any good. the bible shot paid (or maybe has consignment storage like walmart i.e. you don't "own" the book/item you sell until it's scanned into the register) so, you are theiving something. if it were ci, you'd be printing your own bible.

but like i said, i don't believe anyone OWNS the copyrights to the bible.

so, what's the big deal? i can have a copy of just about every book ever made. i go to my library, borrows so many books, scan each one, then return. repeat process as neccessary. problem? inet is so much faster. i guess the AAs are fine with ci, so long as it takes more than a click here and there.

and i will go back to a point, how long should artists get paid? i mean, if i make something and sell it, i.e. a custom system or whatever, can i recharge the customer later down the road? i think people would get upset about it. so why is it ok for the aa's to do?
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Devious, 12 Oct 2006 @ 1:24pm

I feel that as Christian Artists, they should pressure the Music companies to Give away their music. Not just promotions, but give the whole album away in a download format. It is part of the ministry that they have been Called to.

Doing so could only help to promote the Word of God and the artisit themselve. They can still sell Albums, make them worthwhile to buy people will still buy it, and if they tend to hear more then one good song on it they chances are much greater. Plus they have concerts. As long as the artist is good, the music trendy, and for christian values the Word is upheld, people will come and everyone will make money!

God Bless...
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Wizard Prang, 12 Oct 2006 @ 1:38pm

Long reply removed
I had written a point-by-point rebuttal, but then I read Proverbs 26:4 re-read your badly-written and rude post... and decided it was not worth it.
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Wizard Prang, 12 Oct 2006 @ 1:41pm

Most bibles ARE public domain...
...but there are some that are not. While we may not like it, "The worker is worth his pay".

If you worked as a bible translatior, would you do it for nothing?
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Fripadeedills, 12 Oct 2006 @ 1:45pm

hmm
In reality, it cost the artists money to record the music, so like it or not, if I download music w/o paying I'm undercutting their investment. Now, sometimes I'll download a song to see if I like it, if I do, then I buy it. If I don't like it enough to buy, I delete it.
Christian music still costs money to produce... and christian artists still need to eat. You don't like their industry? Vote with your ears...find something else to listen too.
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Wizard Prang, 12 Oct 2006 @ 1:57pm

So why don't you do it...
...and let us know how you get on?

I am as discontented with the copyright laws as anyone else here, but holding your hand out and expecting everyone else to just give you stuff is somewhat immature, to put it mildly.

Instead, why not push for change in copyright laws and recording contracts in which the artists actually get paid?
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 1:58pm

New Generation
We also have a new generation of young Christians and Christian Artists and with advancements in tech, giving them more control, and young kids have a lot of influence, although most people dont realize that. Younger people are more zealous and want everyone to know what they know, even if you already know it. (thats why college kids are so arrogent as well), These kids know the main point to the music, which record companies lose, in fact Churches start losing sight, as well when money becomes an issue.

"It is easier for a cammel to enter the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
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JesusFreak, 12 Oct 2006 @ 2:00pm

Re: Re: Re: chucklebutte
"There is no such thing as Hell"
If you are talking about the God of the bible you should spend some time in HIS word. HE is our heavenly FATHER and created hell for Satan and his demons. If you do not believe in hell then you do not believe in the bible in turn you have created you own God which doesn't exist.

". . . the fiery hell" Matt: 5:22; "soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28); "the unquenchable fire" (Matt. 9:43); ". . . outer darkness . . . weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 22:13)
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Josh, 12 Oct 2006 @ 2:23pm

Re: Free Music as Promotional Tool?
Umm I never got free music before the internet?? If they understood how come I never got a Free CD??
And yes If I was a successful Artist I would release my Cd on a torrent site weeks before the label actually released it. Those records will sell regardless of wheter or not it's on the internet for free. The majority of i my money would come from appearences, shows and other merchandise. I've paid 10 bucks for a couple of key chains of bands and now way was that worth it but I still liked it and bought it. It pays to realease the material on torrent sites for free because of the idiots like me that'll pay for way overpriced tickets and then pay for the insanely overpriced t shirts and parpahnelia. I'm sorry to say that "piracy" can't be use effectively just doesn't make sense to me....
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Cleverboy, 12 Oct 2006 @ 2:32pm

Re: Parables and Analogies
Nick:"I think Jesus would support it. Think about all those fishermen he cheated by copying those fish! Thats 5000 lost sales.. or does it not count because they weren't going to buy them anyway?"

Wizard Prang:"Nice example... and the closest analogy to file copying that I have seen."

Ok... so filesharing is like feeding the poor. God, do you people hear yourselves? I'll simply say this. Feed someone for today, and they're hungry tomorrow. Download a song today, and you'll have it forever. Real close analogy ya got there. It's interesting how the reverb is in here... :: echo chamber ::

I'll grant you this though, I'm sure the music industry felt back in the day, that Napster was the Anti-Christ. Given the subscription model today, I'm sure Napster could still do a sacreligious t-shirt or two... I can imagine that cat-face with a robe on the mount...
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xxl3w, 12 Oct 2006 @ 2:50pm

Re: Re:
Sharing is Caring is a Care Bear quote. wtf are you talking about it's a bible phrase?
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xxl3w, 12 Oct 2006 @ 2:55pm

Jail
I think the music industry should jail every pirate. Then, kill us all. They'd more than likely kill their family, their recording artists, and pretty much everyone in the world. Like the great Avatar says "Action speaks louder than words" Why don't they stop whining and bring the pain? Or better yet, they could deal with it! and compete with it! i liked the fish idea. it makes perfect sense. he was taking those fisherman's money, just like we take the "little" man's money, considering most of the "little" men are millionaires.
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xxl3w, 12 Oct 2006 @ 2:57pm

I heard Jesus shares his gatorade
can you guys please keep religion out of this? everyone has an opinion. Christians: just because EVERYONE isn't so easy to convince, doesn't mean you guys are right. Non-Christians: just because christians are extremely redundant and are like muslims minus the killings, just ignore them.
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gold_leader, 12 Oct 2006 @ 3:04pm

music sharing before napster
It was called the AM-FM cassette recorder and you could use it to record hi-fi quality FM broadcasts of your favorite songs. Just like downloaded music, if you liked the song you bought the album - when you had saved up the money for it. This became even easier with dual-cassette recorders since you could just dupe a friend's CD (in real-time but it was still free).

If you were unhappy with the quality or wanted to original case/album art or just liked the music, you would buy your own copy. But just like today, if you found there was only one song on the whole album you wanted, you either bought the 45 (like a CD single today) or made your own mix-tape with the songs you liked the most.
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satan, 12 Oct 2006 @ 3:26pm

More Shit
If you're gonna steal, steal something worth while
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satan, 12 Oct 2006 @ 3:29pm

Re: Lest we forget...
The question is not one of right or wrong but one of "am I costing someone a sale?".

No you are not, I wouldn't buy some of the shit out there. But I might dl it because I get it free and that's what it's worth to me
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doubledoh, 12 Oct 2006 @ 3:51pm

Re: I heard Jesus shares his gatorade
can you guys please keep religion out of this? everyone has an opinion. Christians: just because EVERYONE isn't so easy to convince, doesn't mean you guys are right. Non-Christians: just because christians are extremely redundant and are like muslims minus the killings, just ignore them.

I resent your inaccuracy. Christians kill just as much as Muslims, if not more. George Bush, a Christian, with his unjust war on Iraq, has killed a hundred thousand innocent Iraqi's...so far. Bin Laden killed 3,000 American people on 9/11. I'd say the Muslims are way behind on the kill count.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 8:26pm

Re: Re: I heard Jesus shares his gatorade
What an asshat. Religion has caused more wars in history than you can imagine. Christians PREACH peace, the koran preaches VIOLENCE. Awesome.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Oct 2006 @ 10:55pm

Yes, Jesus love P2P, the Bible tells me so...
If Jesus believed in copywright laws, he would have copywritted the Bible, and charged the priests performance fees for derivative works.

Jesus wants to upload the software right out of your brain when you die.... let's hope he leaves the RIAA and MPAA types to rot in hell with reruns of Gilligan's Island.
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Anonymous Coward, 13 Oct 2006 @ 4:39am

Tax Collecters
I maybe mixing stories here, but didn't Jesus get pissed at some tax collecters in a temple, or something like that.

RIAA & MPAA are tax collecters for the music industry
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Noah Vail, 13 Oct 2006 @ 6:14am

It's the whole paid clergy thing.....
Scriptures clearly advocate men being paid for their work. But I know of no example of a man on the Lord's mission being paid for his ministry. The apostles received food and shelter from the brethren, but not wealth.

Once a man profits financially from the Lord's work, is he fully on the Lord's errand? We are so acclimated to the idea of wealth through gospel that it doesn't register with us any more.

And no, not all churches have paid clergy.

NV
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JesusFreak, 13 Oct 2006 @ 6:24am

Re: Tax Collecters
He turned over their tables and chased them out with a whip because they were selling goods (animals to sacrifice and such, not tax collectors) and defiling the house of God (the temple).

I don't think the music ind. compares to the house of God. Actually, any comparison to Jesus' actions and downloading music is pretty poor. Jesus had every right to multiply the fish and loaves, He made them both. Taking anything of value without paying is wrong.

I agree keep religion out of this, but the title is "Would JESUS Get Music From P2P Networks?"

They started it!

Jesus loves you!! (I can't resist)
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Wizard Prang, 13 Oct 2006 @ 10:14am

He's baaaaaack...
"Ok... so filesharing is like feeding the poor. God, do you people hear yourselves?"

No, no, no. That is not what I said, and it is not what I meant. Please do not draw conclusions from words that I did not say. In return I will not draw conclusions about the exact location of the reverb.

My point - which you apparently missed - was that duplicates were apparently created that did not compromise the original. This biblical example is therefore a good analogy to the technology of file copying, particularly when compared with the Content industry's habit of comparing file copying with theft from a store shelf.
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Wizard Prang, 13 Oct 2006 @ 10:26am

How dare you.
"christians are extremely redundant and are like muslims minus the killings"

There goes your credibility.

Every day I see things said about God and Jesus (see elsewhere in this thread) that I find distasteful and/or offensive. However, I respect the rights of others to speak freely, even if it makes them obnoxious. Interestingly, I have seen few such comments about Islam. I wonder why?

So far, the Muslims have not shown the same level of tolerance - scrawl some anti-muslim cartoons and there is an international outcry. Write a book that is less than 100% supportive of Islam and wait for the fatwa.

Christians are supposed to be willing to die for their faith, and many still do. The corrent crop of Muslims seem to think it is okay to kill for theirs, and their leadership refuses to condemn this violence.

And you dare to compare the two.
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Computra, 13 Oct 2006 @ 10:55pm

Poor Rich Musicians
We all have had to take a hit in this new time we live in. We have to work for less pay or more hours, more responsibilities, or all of the above. We all have to give more from grocery stores and credit card companies offering money back and loyalty points. Every company is rethinking the way they do business......Every company except for record companies. For the artists I love I will still buy the cd.....Why? Because of the artwork, pictures, or the bundled concert DVD or whatever the truly business smart record company will package with it. Come on guys it isn't that hard.....If you have an unheard of artist opening for a major player package a mini list of their songs with the major player. Package a tshirt in with the cd. A mini photo album. Get creative....afterall shouldn't record companies be "creative" already? Other ways they could vamp up is start selling tickets to pre and post parties with the artists rather then giving away backstage passes to the local radio stations as give aways.
The recording companies will need to learn how to restructure and take less. Also artists would need to take a little less also. Maybe they would need to forfit one of their fancy import cars or weekend getaways to 5 star resorts. And maybe we will need to refine our tastes to good honest music rather then supporting bands that need the extra dough to send their voices through fancy mixers, have loads of plastic surgery (because it's not their voice we are interrested in) and whatever else that trips our triggers about todays artists.
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July, 23 Feb 2009 @ 12:59am

Thank you
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