Secret To Suing Dell: Focus On A Kiosk, Not Headquarters
from the legal-strategies dept
It's no secret that Dell has had some... problems with their customer service operations over the years, some of which have been well publicized. I recently heard from someone that Dell now constantly scours blogs for any complaints to try to respond to them quickly. However, they still run into some problems at times. When one man had the company lose his laptop, and he wasn't satisfied with their replacement offer (and long drawn out conversations), he sued the company in small claims court (sent in by reader Chester Kee). However, rather than send the lawsuit to Dell headquarters, or even a Dell office, he sent it to the local Dell sales kiosk at the mall near his home. Not surprisingly, no one from Dell showed up in court (they probably had no idea the case even existed), and the man won $3,000 -- and even got an order saying court workers could seize merchandise from the kiosk. Once Dell found out about this, they quickly settled the case (as they should have), but it still seems a bit odd that it was okay for the case to be served to a random sales kiosk -- and that the court allowed the reimbursement to come from that kiosk as well.
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technically...
It's the franchisee's responsibilty to make sure that the customer gets the product that was ordered through that franchise.
(Assuming that the following example would fly at all, it's just the first thing I could think of)
It would be like filing a suite against a franchised DQ if they didn't give me part of my order. (I know, usually you just go up to the window and say, "Hey! Idiot! You F***ed up my order!" but, we'll pretend you can't do that.)
In any event, what happened was perfectly legal, and legit.
First, btw.
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Re: technically...
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no longer first..
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And the consumer always has the right to sue in his own jurisdiction. But that does no good unless the defendant has something within that jurisdiction the court can enforce the judgment on.
I wish I would have thought of it.
I like this guy. Maybe Dell will wake up and smell the smoke that is left of their customer service reputation.
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If only it were always possible to sue in your own
BTW,
The man didn't serve a "kiosk" he served a very small Dell store that operated out of a kisok. The store is a real store staffed by real people, albeit a small one. The story made it seem like the man served a self service video kiosk.
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Re: If only it were always possible to sue in your
However, Dell failed to enter any kind of appearance at the appointed date and time handing our hero a default judgment and (from what the article says) and order for execution of that judgment.
That is what we call a "slam dunk!"
In reality, once an action is filed placing such a relatively tiny amount of money in play, for Dell it's cheaper to settle up then it is to release the legal hounds to defend the company.
My guess is Dell would have settled anyway. Someone at the Kiosk dropped the ball and Dell got their nose swatted with a rolled up summons and complaint.
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kiosk f'd up
Truthfully, had they gone to court they probably would have had a pretty good chance, they do have lots of expensive lawyers after all and he was likely representing himself. But they ARE expensive laywers and they would have had to fly at least one and probably a few out there.
I've dealt with this situation in the past (lost notebook escalations, not lawsuit). Sometimes they have been lost by the service depot (which is run by a company called Solectron, BTW) and more typically by DHL in shipping. Dell would have replaced the notebook anyways, after a short period (a couple of business days) with trying to have the depot/DHL locate it and any re
From my experience I'm going to guess that the whole problem was one of the following
A) loss of data, the customer sent the hard drive in with it even though they are supposed to be told to remove it except in very rare circumstances; doesn't mean the tech told them to do so though, course
B) wants to be compensated with an upgraded computer for their trouble, possibly due to reason A. I once had a customer INSIST we should give them our top of the line notebook as compensation, they had bought one of the cheapest one
C) wants a brand new system. Normal procedure is to replace a system with a new one if it is still being manufacturered or a refurb if it isn't. Replacement of parts with refurbished is pretty standard industry wide anyways, but most customers don't understand that (I'm talking the entire electronics industry, not just computer industry).
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Re: kiosk f'd up
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Is it just me, or does that read funny?
Sounds like the guy called up Dell one day and said "hey, would you lose my laptop?"
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EULA may not apply
Second, the EULA on the original purchase likely does not apply to a service arrangement, especially if he dropped it off at the kiosk. The original article isn't clear where the laptop was lost from.
Tha main point here, though, is that a company can and should be held responsible for loss of property if they are at fault. In most states anything under $5000 is a small claims court matter, not a major court case with lawyers filing motions and briefs and so on. It's a quickie in and out sort of thing, usually. If the defendant doesn't show up then the plaintiff gets a nice summary judgement. That's life!
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laptop shipped by DHL
Now, I DO agree that 5 months is far too long but I'm not sure it really took that long.
I will confess this got my curiosity up and I looked up to see what I could find out about it in the system, but I'm not sure how much I can safely reveal. Don't want to jeopardize my job and all that.
I will say that the guy most definitely did NOT buy it from the kiosk (they didn't exist at the time it was purchased). They were only involved apparently because that's where he chose to serve the lawsuit. I could see several ways that I would have handled things differently but, of course, I wasn't involved.
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I build my own systems
on another note i know how this guy must feel. I had a horrible experience with Best Buy refusing to replace my laptop, i succeeded in the end but it was much more difficult than it should have been.
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Re: I build my own systems
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Re: Anonymous Coward - Lucky comment
Every state law that I know of requires courts take failure to appear on the defendant's part to result in a default judgment for the plaintiff. Once entered, it is very difficult persuade a judge set a default judgment aside.
There has to be a great deal more to Anonymous Coward's story. My guess is something along the lines of defective (the papers were not properly delivered by an uninvolved third party to a person allowed under the rules of service) or fraudulent service. Anything else would be highly unusual.
Courts rarely award court costs and legal fees for setting aside a judgment resulting from a defective service as long as there was a good faith effort to make legal service. There are very view 'loser pays' scenarios in United States laws. If defective service were a loser pays scenario, collection agencies all over the United States would be bankrupt.
The amount of distaste Judges show for defective service is nothing compared to the wrath the plaintiff will feel if the affidavit of service* is fraudulent. If the judge finds this to be the case the judgment will be set aside, the defendant receiving a judgment for legal fees and costs is almost certain and the plaintiff and the person affirming the affidavit stand an excellent chance of finding themselves in the county lock up.
If what Anonymous Coward said is true, it leads me to believe there were some shenanigans on the plaintiff's part. It would have been interesting to research the case, but Anonymous Coward didn't even hint at where to look.
*Affidavit of Service: A sworn statement by the process server stating he completed the service that is filed with the court clerk and filed with the rest of the court's documents in this case
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I'm not surprised that the system got lost and they basically jerked him around. My company leased 85 pc's from Dell (and a bunch of other hardware) and even with"gold" service they basically don't give a rat's ass about us. We have exceeded a 100% failure rate - having replaced some motherboards two or even three times because of capacitor failures (all of our pc's were in the bad batch, google it) - and we have crappy, don't give a damn, send you the wrong motherboard turnaround from Dell.
Now the leases are up and we get a non-negotiable, ridiculously high buyout offer from some Dell rep in India who barely speaks intelligible english and I can't even get our Dell sales rep to return my email. They've lost our business, probably forever, and they don't even know it or appear to care. I can only imagine how many thousands of other small businesses and individuals are in the process of being run off.
Good for this guy.
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Dell
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Re: Dell
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Dell blows
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Re: Dell blows
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Re: Dell blows
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Sending my Bills
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Primary point: The gentleman filed suit in small claims court.
We have two kinds of courts in most USA jurisdictions: Courts of law and courts of equity. Courts of law are, hopefully, self-explanatory: Lawyers representing clients present evidence and argue the points of law before a judge (who is usually a former lawyer or has some form of legal education and background) and a decision is made that will more or less adhere to the letter of the law (or joy of joys, attempt to set a precedent based on interpretation of that law). Something that does not describe a court of law are the words "small claims."
Courts of equity are informal courts that can be presided over by someone with no formal legal education, or no legal background whatsoever, and provide the people with access to redress without the need for a lawyer. Another word for equitable is fair. The court isn't concerned with applying the law, but with reaching a fair resolution. Small claims is a court of equity.
Dell's representative would certainly be free to argue all sorts of things about jurisdictions and EULAs and whatever the hell else he might think is in the best interest of his client. It won't mean squat but it'll sure sound nice and official and maybe even intimidate the plaintiff a little. The judge is perfectly free to then ignore all of that and issue the same orders that resulted from the default judgement with the sole written decision of "because I said so, that's why."
Dell could appeal that to the lowest court of law, but except in cases of evident bias on behalf of the equity judge, this step is pretty useless.
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Re: Anonymous Coward - Arm chair lawyering
Must be the gray hair.
Here's the rules for serving a corporation in a New Jersey civil action:
New Jersey 4:4-4
6. Upon a corporation, by serving a copy of the summons and complaint in the manner prescribed by paragraph (a)(1) of this rule on any officer, director, trustee or managing or general agent, or any person authorized by appointment or by law to receive service of process on behalf of the corporation, or on a person at the registered office of the corporation in charge thereof, or, if service cannot be made on any of those persons, then on a person at the principal place of business of the corporation in this State in charge thereof, or if there is no place of business in this State, then on any employee of the corporation within this State acting in the discharge of his or her duties, provided, however, that a foreign corporation may be served only as herein prescribed subject to due process of law;
This is a gray area because a search for Dell of the New Jersey State Business Gateway web site shows only one possible listing: Dell Computer Marketing. It is doubtful this is 'The Dell Computers' because it is registered limited foreign partnership.
If the Dell corporation that our hero dealt with does not have a registered agent in New Jersey, then the employees in the kiosk are fair game. But the trick is to find out if Dell has a registered agent in New Jersey.
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Courts of Equity
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Re: Courts of Equity
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Good as Dell
With regards to Dell quality, the corp. I work for switched to Dell's 2 years ago. Since that time we have switched back to IBM, now Lenovo. Also, our tech support for all hardware comes from H.P. go figure.
To Avatar28, keep up the good work. It's your attitude, "you were too cheap to upgrade to the onsite warranty for not much more" that reminds everyone why we should stay away from Dell.
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Re: Good as Dell
I will bend over backwards to help someone who needs it. If someone is respectful to me and will work with me, I will do everything in my power to help them and will push things as far as they can go to do so, even going well beyond what I typically am supposed to or really even should. But you also have to see it from the other perspective.
The cost to upgrade from a mail-in service to onsite service is about $70. Now, in this instance, that didn't apply anyways. But believe me when I say you wouldn't believe the number of people I do and have dealt with who bitch and moan because they chose to get the mail-in or shorter length warranty and then have to mail the system in or pay to get support or to get the thing fixed. I know good and well the sales rep offered it to them, but they chose NOT to purchase it.
Just like with insurance, it's a form of gambling. On the one hand you can save money up front by not paying for the onsite or extended warranty, but in doing so you are taking the risk that if something DOES happen it may cost you more on the back end. That comment was directed at the people who knowingly choose to take this gamble, then throw a fit and DEMAND that we should either A) give them onsite service when they chose to get mail-in service or B) that we support/repair their computer at no charge when it is well out of warranty. They inevitably argue that it was only x length of time old and shouldn't have failed. This is the type of behavior the comment I made was directed at. I truly would feel the same way no matter who I worked for. I would feel the same way if someone were to purchase, say, a set of tires and declined the road hazard warranty on them and then run over a nail and ruins the tire and then they have to buy a new one. That has always been a pet peeve of mine. Probably ties into my distate for frivilous lawsuits in general (not that I'm saying that this necessarily was one).
Case in point, shortly before I posted that, my coworker who sits behind me got a call from someone who had purchased I believe it was a 1 yr warranty on their system. The system was nearly 2 years old and had a bad motherboard. The person was having a fit and arguing that we should fix it anyways because it shouldn't have broken. I guess that was still fresh in my mind at the time I posted that plus I was grumpy and was working on about 12 hours sleep total over a period of 3 days. The comment was inappropriate in this instance (though I still stand by my assertion that in some cases it is warranted) and reflects poorly on both the company and on myself. I do, however, apologize to anyone who may have been offended by it.
Now, I don't have a problem that the guy took the Dell to court over the issue, although I do feel from having read the notes that he was being somewhat unreasonable as well. Ultimately the blame lies on both parties as it is almost never one sided in a case like this. One party typically wants something the other considers excessive and refuses to budge or compromise from their demands which naturally encourages the other side to do likewise (this from my experience taking escalations here as well as all the various court shows).
I wish I knew what the final settlement was, but of course there is no way to really find out. If I had to guess, they probably gave him a check for the original price he paid for the computer and sent him on his way.
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DELL
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Dell Warranty - Mediate not sue?
I called Dell's sales/service folks to ask more about their warranty/service level agreement - they get very "testy" and of course claim they are wonderful and so you don't need to worry that their warranty is written in a way that benefits Dell not the consumer.
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The untold story...
What gets me is when the end user will purchase just the standard warranty and then complain about the support. The standard warranty is parts only and reloads of OS. That is all you get with the standard warranty. If you don't purchase anything more, you don't get anything more.
Dell has it stated in the contracts that any system can be replaced with like or better. People get hung up on the Next Business Day support as well, but if the contract was read one would see that the NBD applies to when the servicing tech gets the parts. If a part is on Back order, you won't get service until the part is available...if DHL loses a shipment, you won't get service until the part can get to the tech. All of which is outlined in the contract. The sad truth is that the sales team doesn't go into these details unless ask. They want off the phone and to the next call. Sales work off of commission and not pay by the hour... perhaps another error of Dell's.
Here's the problem, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. It is quite possible for a sales person to sell you the wrong part. For example RAID. Careful you don't get sold the DataSafe. DataSafe is not RAID. If you lose the master hard drive, you have lost all data. That is not RAID, but it is sold as such over and over again. Dell is lacking in idiot-proof department. Think of it like this...if the Sales person knew that much about computers, why wouldn't they be a tech? Techs have better stability and pay than what Sales gets. If Dell would build a system that would be more idiot proof, less errors would occur, but that is not the case... If the sales person was asked for a RAID system, then the DataSafe systems should not be a part of that list. Dell has just recently facilitated a backup audit system... Real people listen into the call, but still not every call. It use to be that Dell did random call recordings which would only catch a bone-head agent 2% of the time... that leaves a lot of room for errors. So being as sharp as possible, Dell instituted a record all of your calls policy, and then you are responsible to upload them for audits. Happily everyone does this... only knowing that the tool is unreliable, which gives the agent the room to pre-audit his own calls and upload the ones that won't hurt his performance. This means that the agent could still be free to act without reprisal most of the time. Give it up for Dell, it is now 2007 and they have been going at it since the early 90's so it took them nearly 15 years to understand you can't just put people on the phone with no accountability or with accountability that they can control. Overall, they might just get it right, but at what cost? Look what it has done to their customers who can be told a truth or a lie and no one at Dell is any wiser.
Did I mention your support phone number has changed? This happens too frequently across the electronic industry. Why do they need to change the number? Well because it cost Dell more to keep the same phone number. They get the number leased to them, then once the lease runs out, it is cheaper to change the number than to buy the inflated lease renewal. Most companies do this.
As for New or Used? Well, I know that I would be better off with a used part in some cases, and a new part in others. Anyone ever dealt with a bad CPU? I am using one right now. It’s an AMD 2800 Anthlon, and I can take the chip out right now and you can see not a brown mark, but a black mark across the bottom of the processor. The computer still works. I get blue screens if I try and run a video game, but in normal applications I have no problems…but, I wouldn’t sell this processor to anyone, nor would I put it into a system that I wanted reliability from. I can run test after test on this unit and the processor will pass every time…but I know it is bad. CPU’s have redundancies that keep them alive, but if a test can’t identify the failed redundancies then what good is it? You can blame this on the CPU manufacture, but it’s the OEM that pays for that flaw. There just isn’t a test that can find that type of error. So what happens is you get a replacement part from a unit that was scrapped and then you start getting BSOD. You are not happy and you blame the OEM, but they all will send out a used part if the system is anywhere close to 30 days old, and once again… this is stated in the support contract.
I commend this guy on the Kiosk, but knowing the general public, I bet it happened by mistake. He probably had been to that Kiosk several times to complain and someone there set him off, so he retaliated by putting their name down as point of contact for the summons. Who knows, but it is a rather funny story just the same.
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Dell nightmare
I sent the computer DHL on Aug. 9. A couple days ago I got a phone message telling me the "motherboard and LCD" needed to be replaced, this wouldn't be covered under warranty, and I had until Aug. 20th to call them or it would be sent back un-repaired. When I called I was told the problem was a result of spill damage (coffee or coke). They then said the motherboard, keyboard, and palm rest would have to be replaced at my expense. I spilled nothing on this computer and don't even drink coffee or coke. They are lying or incompetent. The keyboard wasn't even broken when I sent it in to them, I had been using it the day I shipped it out! The only problem was with motherboard (the laptop didn't recognize the ac adapter). After an argument I was told they would re-check the system, send me photos of the damage, and get back to me the next day.
The next day I get an identical voice message and no photos sent to me. I call them back and am told they reviewed the system and still claim the problem is from spill damage so it won't be covered. I ask them to send me photos again and the tech support person does this time. I tell him that although I spilled nothing on the computer, I will review the photos and call back the next day. He then tells me that is not a possibility, I either have to authorize payment for repairs or they will immediately return the computer un-repaired. He then claims that they have had my computer since July 31st and they will hold it no longer. I explain to him that no, they haven't had it that long, I mailed it on Aug. 9th, have a phone message confirming they received it on Aug. 10th, and 2 phones messages (on 8/14 and 8/15) saying they will hold it until Aug. 20th. The Dell rep. then starts yelling at me telling me he has the DHL info right in front of him confirming I sent it on the 30th and they received it on the 31st, and he will have it shipped back to me if I don't authorize payment for repairs. He was so rude! Finally he just gets his supervisor.
I then go through the whole ordeal with his supervisor. Who is initially nice, but then becomes rude and condescending as well! We argue over the shipping date until he finally says something like, "ok, I'll pretend to believe you about the shipping date, that doesn't change the fact that there is spill damage." We get in an argument about this and he agrees to hold my computer for a few days until I have the chance to review the photos.
The photos I received show me absolutely nothing. They are very low quality images of the motherboard, and it is impossible for me to tell what they are trying to show me. I'm calling them back today when I get out of work to plead my case again!
This is by far the worst experience I have ever had with a company. I honestly don't believe a word they are saying to me anymore. I don't even think they have the right computer! The whole shipping date thing just proves they have no idea what is going on! There is no way I am giving Dell more money unless they own up to this problem. If they ship the computer back un-repaired I'm taking it to small claims, for sure. To spend over $1000 on a laptop, have it stop working a month and a half later, and then refuse to repair it is completely unacceptable. And to top it off, their reps accuse me of causing the problem AND lying about the shipping date. The spill damage issue is just my word against theirs I guess, but I can easily prove they are wrong about the shipping date. We'll see what happens.
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@#$@#%# Dell
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@#$@#%# Dell
My question is who do you name in the law suit? If anybody has any input on this I would greatly apprectiate your help
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lawsuit
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Lease cancelation
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Tired of the nightmare with my laptop
I am sick and tired of talking to some of the unprofessional Dell customer service representatives in India for my laptop issues. I have gone through the worst nightmare with my new Dell laptop. My sincere advice to all u folks is NEVER buy a Dell laptop. I never in my life ever thought that I will go through this nightmare. Every time I called Dell Customer Service I was forced to deal with an Indian customer technician who tells you to run the diagnostics test over and over again. I had requested them several times to transfer me to a customer service representative here in the U.S. but it never happened. I would like to sue Dell for the nightmare I went through. The last Indian supervisor I spoke to today was so arrogant and rude in her behavior that I had to tell her to give me the Legal department # of Dell. It has been the most frustrating experience in my life. I am fed up and would like to talk to a human being from Dell Computers Legal Department. Please guide me in this matter. My computer has crashed several times. Thanks
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Dell XPS M1330
I want to take Dell to small claim court. I can fill the paper, but do not know what DELL office shall I send the copy of the court order to. Can someone help me?
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They lie, mislead, con, trick, thief, and act like a bunch of shameless spineless jellyfish and when you ask for a detail on the refund they hide it until you send the computer back unless you force it out of them. It's a long two months wait with a check going out each month and a restocking fee.
With all the hell I mean Dell crap, I still got some use out of the Laptoop and still plan on suing them for a loooooong list of crap they put me thru.
Don't even think of using BBB because Dell pay them to stay in good standing. You see that's the way the two evils come together. The guy at BBB ignored my emails when I filed a list of complaints because he did not want to tell me when the case will be solved but since my warranty was running out I went straight to Dell for my money. Obviously BBB wasn't doing anything trying to take advantage of me.
Again I still plan on suing after I get my money back minus restocking fee for a crappy laptop that I paid $955 for.
Folks don't be concerned, they will all pay the ultimate price. In this world, it is easy to get over on some folks but with God, the ultimate price will be paid.
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laptop caught on fire
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Worst Peoples i have ever seen, Liers, Cheaters
I have bought a Dell Laptop (Express Service tag 33023384893) 18/03/2014, and this product's warranty is expiring on 17/04/2014, i have bought it in 67,000/-, after expiring 1 year warranty company is providing additional warranty for 2 years at 11,999/- (after this price there is 15-20% discount)
1. i have called the company on 18/04/2014, regarding extending the warranty, they said they will send email to me with quotation, then i have to pay for it, then warranty will be extended
2. they never called, then i call them again on 22/04/2014, same things happen again, no return call or email
3. then on 28/04/2014 i called again, then they said same thing and send me email with quotation, but without discount price, i replied them to send me discounted price, nothing came in return no phone call or email,
4. then on 05/05/2014 i call them again, and asked them about same thing they said that NOW PRICES ARE DIFFERENT THEN MY LAST 2 CALLS, they give no reason, they denying everything with last 2 person said to my, they have removed other 2 options from warranty, before there were 4 options for my laptop, now when i confronted them they saying there are only 2 options left if you want to buy then buy or leave, you can go ahead and launch complaint, we also have legal persons who will take care of things
1st email
· Two year Complete Cover (Accidental Protection Plan) + Premium Phone Support : Rs 12,999/- only (Inclusive of Taxes)
these prices are without discount, all 3 peoples from the same company have accepted that there is a discount, but they can not send it in written, but they are denying it now
i have chosen 1st option from that list
now they are saying you can not buy this, because we will not give you this
(i confirm again, when i called first time, they check my system it was out of warranty, then they given me options, and price)
when i confirming them or confronting them, they denying, they changed options, they changes price, they changed rules
RESOLUTION
i want to buy this
Two year Complete Cover (Accidental Protection Plan) + Premium Phone Support : Rs 12,999/- only (Inclusive of Taxes)
on discount price, which will be 10-15%
so please take any action, if you find it true,
i am attaching my email, and phone conversation recordings,
if you think i am right then support me
link for attached documents
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21542505/Dell%20complaint%20documents.zip
Costumer care number : 18004250088
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DELL SCAMMER
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