Can Someone Explain The Irreparable Injury Of Playing Classic Jazz Tunes In A Restaurant?
from the it's-called-promotion dept
Steve Bryant passes on the news that Guiseppe's Italian Restaurant in Washington is facing a lawsuit over playing some popular jazz tunes in the restaurant without paying the ASCAP fees. This sort of thing happens all the time, and the language used by the lawyers is probably pretty standard. However, it is amusing: "The said wrongful acts of the Defendants have caused and are causing great injury to the Plaintiffs, which damage cannot be accurately computed, and unless the Court restrains the Defendants from the further commission of said acts, said Plaintiffs will suffer irreperable (sic) injury." I'd like to see the lawyers explain how playing a song in a restaurant is likely to cause "irreparable injury" (whether or not it's spelled correctly). It's also hard to believe that the "damages" cannot be accurately computed. They're likely to be close to zero. I'd think that, especially with these kinds of songs, the much more likely story is that playing an old classic is actually more likely to act as a promotion, encouraging people to go out and purchase the music in question. However, we have to remember that in the view of the entertainment industry these days, there's no such thing as promotional value to content. Still, perhaps the restaurant should ask the record labels suing them to pay them for promoting their back catalog.
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What if Georgians Sound Too Georgian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuuhFg-MXAQ&NR
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Promotion... yeah right
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Re: Promotion... yeah right
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Re: Promotion... yeah right
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for what its worth i was in a high street music store (which shall remain un-named in case promoting it finds me with a court case on my hands) the other day. While there I heard a certain artist (who, again, i shall not name for legal reasons) who i had heard a lot about but had never got round to exploring properly as, despite reading a lot of positive review about, I didn't expect that I'd like artist as it just didn't sound like my sort of thing, being played over their in-store sound system. I actually liked the track a LOT more then i was expecting to and was tempted to buy the CD.
Ok, I admit that I didn't actually leave the store with the CD in hand but this was more due to a lack of money then lack of interest in the music and I have full intention of going back to make the purchase after pay day.
If thats not promotion then what is ?! and its exactly what the restaurant is being punished for.
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Do this: hire musicians, who are in need of a break (and make sure they do not imbibe in the above mentioned genres - only originals), or use your noodle and hire a music/atmosphere consultant to provide interesting and unusual music. Oh, and dump the TV's that show sports 24/7.
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Music I've never heard of?
Does anyone think my "restaurant experience" claim is valid? Would people leave a posh restaurant if they played punk rock? The type of music adds to the experience.
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I HAD NO IDEA
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I HAD NO IDEA
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This is standard language for a temporary injunction.
You have to show there is wrong being committed that cannot later on be properly mitigated by damages. If Mike cared to put in what their argument was, or, wait to see what it was, we may have a pieces of journalism rather than grandstanding to further his viewpoint
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Owned?
It's a scam by the labels. And they are stepping up enforcement. To the unknowledgeable bloke above..yes, if you play music in your business that you purchased, you can be sued, unless you pay the RICO-esque fees to the labels.
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Not to nitpick..
In any event-- how is this any different than inviting people to a party and playing music? Do we all need to obtain permission before playing music around people who didn't actually pay for the music? (like anyone pays for music anymore!) I mean, sometimes I charge $5 a cup if I've purchased a keg... and usually I end up with more than enough to cover the cost, so I made a profit.
I'm interetsed in finding out exactly what rights I have when dealing with the music I purchased. How many people who don't own the CD can I play it for before it becomes copyright infringement? I can see this getting ridiculous quick.
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Let's not be stupid...
Now come on. No one is saying you can't listen to music at your house with friends around. The post was about a restaurant owner playing music for the enjoyment of his patrons. Patrons that are paying him for a good meal and good ambiance. The fact is the owner is making money indirectly off of playing the music.
And don't bitch and moan about "promoting the artist". I got no problem with user generated content and using music in it and all that crap. But if ABC or NBC is using a Beatles song you can be damn sure they are paying to use that music. It's all about indirectly profiting from using someone's music.
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Re: Grandstanding to get this message across
I think you missed the whole point. The wording is ridicolous and although it may be the standard way of doing things we can all still stand back and gawk at how stupid the whole proccess is.
BTW who doesn't grandstand to further their own opinion? This is a BLOG and it is about OPINIONS, so why don't you grandstand yourself over to the newspapers so you can have your coveted "truth".
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"lets not be stupid"
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Ohh please... the owner *paid* for those paintings. He's not paying ASCAP to play the music.
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Re: Let's not be stupid...
Also, just because I make money off of it (or don't make money) doesn't mean they wouldn't come after me.
For example: How long would it take for them to slap a cease and desist on me if I played my CD to the wole block? (at no cost to anyone). How about if I streamed it to my (ad free) website? I'm not making money, mind you.. just streaming my paid for music collection to my website, for whatever crazy reason. What if the owner simply played XM radio to his patrons? or FM radio?
I don't think it's as simple as "making money" anymore. I think they make and change the rules to suit their wants. Do't get me wrong, I admire a man who plays the devil's advocate, but in this case, they need to get over themselves.
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"Fair Use"
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Restaurant Jazz Music
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"...What if the owner simply played XM radio to his patrons? or FM radio?..."
Look up the Fairness in Music Licensing Act of 1998. You can play the radio at the restaurant and not pay a dime.
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Re: Not to nitpick..
At any rate, there is a big difference between playing music in a commercial or public environment and playing music at your home.
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That soundtrack you hear in that movie you are watching? The movie makers are paying for it
That music in that ad you see in the breaks? Paid for
That music being played on the radio? Paid for
Music in the junkbox at the bar? Percentage goes to rights holder
Music in the clubs? Paid for
So yes the resturant pays as well
Sure it might also be promotion for the song/artist, but you have to draw the line somewhere otherwise the only time the the rights holder would make a penny is when they play it live
The following seems completly fair to me
"someone else making a profit, either directly or indirectly from the song? Then rights holder of the song makes something too"
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fair use
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Re: Re: Promotion... yeah right
The music industry needs to get a clue. People aren't going to stop playing music in restaurants, bars, etc. It's become a national pastime and that is something the largest corporate powers (or even governments) will never be able to successfully take away without turning us into a police state.
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Re: Music I've never heard of?
I've done this quite a few times and it is a direct result of the fact someone was playing a cover live or from a recording over a sound system.
It is promotion of content any way you slice it. These companies are only interested in milking every fucking penny out of every pocket they can. It's a sad, sad thing that the great United States has become a cesspool of slimy lawyers, politicians and corporate bitches. We're in a sinking ship of immorality and our government needs a serious wake-up call from the people that this shit is no-longer what we consider freedom.
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As an owner
The alternative is trying to skate by without getting caught. There are scumbag lawyers who look up records of establishments that are paying fees. Then they cold call or visit retail establishments to see if they are playing music. If you are playing music and have no record of paying fees.....your screwed.
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Sounds about right to me...
Sounds fine to me. That's the way it worked in the old days before there was recording equipment. Let's go back to that.
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Those are the rules
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It's an old scam...
They have people with nothing better to do than call all the businesses in the phone book, and attempt to be put on hold. If they hear "music on hold," the name of the business is passed on to ASCAP. They contact the business, and the if the business doesn't cash out money to pay off the extortion, they sue.
They don't care if the "music on hold" is a rebroadcast of a radio station that already paid royalties to ASCAP, BMI, and the record labels. They still want to double-collect.
They probably do the same thing to restaurants or other facilities where playing music in public can happen.
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Re: I HAD NO IDEA
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Re:
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Re: fair use
If the restaurant purchased a CD then the Restuarant Corp/LLC (whatever entity it is) actually own the license to use it. So how can the restaurant owner be sued? Shouldn't they be suing the restaurant. Symantics, I know, but an important distiction in ownership nonetheless.
Secondly,
I think it's fair to assume that the owner of the restaurant hired a band to play music. Shouldn't the band be sued? The band is the one making a profit off the music, I assume the owner would not have hired teh band had they not been able to play specific music. So if the band says it can and will play a specific type, for a fee, isn't it then the responsibility of the band to secure rights to play the music? I'm pretty sure that's how it works when one musical artist wants to cover another's song.
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The pain, the pain
Can Someone Explain The Irreparable Injury Of Playing Classic Jazz Tunes In A Restaurant?
Well, I could, but I'm not typically one to criticize the musical tastes of others.
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Re: Re: fair use
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First, owning a CD does not give you the right to play it in your restaurant, bar, store, etc. That is commercial use and is not covered in any standard CD license just like that announcement during football and baseball games.
Second, the restaurant benefits from playing the music. Why shouldn't the artist benefit too? If I decide to linger for dessert partly because of the wonderful music, is the owner going to send the artist a portion of the check?
Third, I am an artist and a restaurant GM. We use a commercial streaming service because it was more cost effective (and less headache) than licensing, but we have always paid and always will.
Fourth, I have no problem with consumers fucking over artists, the RIAA, and the MPAA. I think those organizations are worse than the mafia, but that support does not apply to businesses.
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Re:
The artist DOES benefit, by getting his or her music heard.
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I just checked
What I found most interesting however, is that most of what we are arguing in favor of, was included in the original bill that was never passed, because it was too "restricted" (according to the ASCAP).
To Anonymous Coward, i resent having my opinion rules as a "poorly thought out opinion", in fact it may have been poorly researched, but I assure you it wasn't poorly thought out.
Silly me, I mixed up what should actually be considered fair, to what the RIAA, MPAA, ASCAP, and every other "artists organization" think is fair. I wonder if they would think it's so fair if they didn't make millions already and having to wait for payday to buy a $20 CD was a thought that never even crossed thier minds.
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Music and artists
We have an entire industry built around production of the album, making it sound the way someone decides to make it sound, then recording that. Then that recording is mass-produced and distributed. I have no problem with the industry making a small profit over and above recovering the costs of this process. How interesting that this has become the PRODUCT, however, and not the artist or artists. Therefore the industry attempts to milk every penny out of the album/song in every imaginable way.
What if, instead, the artist literally had to "sing for his supper" - getting paid to play gigs, and only did the recording as a promotional tool?
I know, I can hear the argument already, the recordinng is of such quality that there is no incentive to use live music.
Just throwing this out there for discussion...
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Lawyers
-Attributed to many but the feeling is the same
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OK so "dine and dash" is OK because the chef gets his food eaten?
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Stuff the RIAA, MPAA and ASCAP
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Re:
In my opinion, the restaurant benefited, but so did the artist. For independent/no label musicians especially, word-of-mouth is their best chance at actually making money.
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Re:
In my opinion, the restaurant benefited, but so did the artist. For independent/no label musicians especially, word-of-mouth is their best chance at actually making money.
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Re: Restaurant Jazz Music
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Re: Not to nitpick..
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Re: Boo-ya
OK so "dine and dash" is OK because the chef gets his food eaten?
If you could copy a meal as easy as you could copy some music maybe you would have a point. Plus last time I checked when I am eating no-one else can taste what I taste. When I come to think of it, trying to compare these two is rather ridiculous! :)
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Shouldn't that be up to the artist (or chef) rather than the consumer?
Look, if the artist agrees to give the music away great, but by signing a record contract they have decided not to give their music away. If you take it without paying after they decide not to give it away, you are plain and simple stealing it.
No better than a shoplifter.
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Re:
If you can't figure out the difference between stealing food and listening to a song and getting the promotional value of that, I can't help you.
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The future of music
What's interesting, though, is where we go from here. ASCAP won't be very successful in getting businesses to license the music--that's not cost effective for most. But if ASCAP is effective in stopping restaurants from playing their music, then restaurants will have to turn to alternatives--specifically, local indie groups that don't have record label deals, and want promotional coverage.
So ASCAP is pushing the industry where we expect it to go anyway, where music is given away for promotional use. The "unintended consequence" is that ASCAP is cutting itself out of the picture in the process. 20 years from now, people will be asking, "ASCAP? What was that?"
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Dag nabbit.
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3-2-1
Dag Nabbit EXPLODES!!!! Cool.
You use something for it for which there is an established price established, without paying for it ... It is stealing.
As for the "promotional value"... It's up to the copyright owner if he/she want to give something away for promotion, not the consumer.
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Stealing water
This fight over copyright infringement is all a rehersal for when we can instantly duplicate anything we want via temporal engineering. You copied that food without paying for it? It's the death penalty for you! Nevermind that we could feed everybody in the world and er, what would money be useful for anyway?
Seriously though, money talks, so just wait and you will probably be able to watch the USA quickly devolve into a third-world dictatorship over petty copyright issues. The people who have money will go to war over their money; what else has war been made for? Maybe were better off before sound recording was invented.
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What about record stores?
I know I bought the Lifehouse CD less then 5 minutes after walking into a Sam Goody's and hearing "Hanging By A Moment" (back in 2000). I had never heard the band before that.
If record stores can do it, why can't anyone else? Unlike restaurants, record stores play the music publicly for the express purpose of making money.
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Re: What about record stores?
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