North Korea Lectures South Korea On... Internet Freedoms And Human Rights?
from the say-what?!? dept
North Korean leaders are nothing if not delusional at times. The country that has banned mobile phones in the past is now claiming that South Korea's decision to block access to certain pro-North Korean websites violated "the public's basic right to information." Yes, this is a North Korean official saying this. North Korea is not exactly known for its human rights record, or providing any "basic right to information." The story then gets better: "This is a fascist action against democracy and human rights as it infringes upon the South Koreans' freedom of speech and deprives them of even their right to enjoy the civilization offered by the IT age." While we actually agree that it's a bad idea for South Korea to ban access to these websites (if South Koreans are confident in their view, then they should be able to debate the pro-North Korean views so that people understand why they're wrong), it's pretty ridiculous for North Korea to complain about a limitation on "basic human rights."
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wrestling with pigs
Jonah Goldberg, National Review Online
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You make NK out to "not that good" and it is truly an insult to the lives that are lost there every day under conditions that no one can begin to imagine.
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Re: wrestling with pigs
The argument being made by NK is neither ludicrous nor reprehensible. Their argument makes sense. Whats totally ironic, and what Mike was pointing out, was that OF ALL PEOPLE its North Korea that is making the argument.
Mike didnt treat the argument with respect, he mocked it for the history of the speaker.
You just opened your mouth and shit fell out.
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Re:
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Should the US ban Asian news?
In the West, we would call such actions child abuse. What if something is perfectly legal and proud parents upload video clips to the web, while it is highly illegal in the US?
http://www.kochinews.co.jp/0701/070126evening02.htm
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I'll give you one guess as to who his chief supplier is...
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Why do they tolerate it?
Why dont they revolt? Potential for death being an obvious answer but still why do they suffer it? I'd kill and risk death for my liberty so i can only assume fear is not the fundamental reason.
Imagine being stuck in a cage so well made that you actually believe that it's everyone else whose trying to get in. Imagine a state of mind where your jailers appear to you as your saviours.
If you struggle to comprehend such a mindset then maybe start with concepts like the Patriot Act and a constant threat of terrorism and then draw them to their logical conclusions.
I wonder if they scoff at our cages as much as we scoff at theirs?
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People do escape from NK or attempt to do so
************
Those who do escape over the border into China are at risk of being sent back, placed directly into the hands of the NK government, facing certain torture, imprisonment and death. S. Korea will take them, but culturally and socially, North Koreans are viewed as inferior. Slots in colleges and good government jobs are reserved for South Koreans who can prove their family lineage. The Korean culture is one entirely different from ours, with a unique set of customs and values.
Every day, hundreds do attempt to escape. You have to remember that right now, our access to information on NK is limited to those first-hand accounts of the people who manage to escape. Read 'The Aquariums of Pyongyang: Ten Years in a North Korean Gulag' for an understanding of what the NK people are facing.
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Re: Why do they tolerate it?
Imagine being stuck in a cage so well made that you actually believe that it's everyone else whose trying to get in.
I've never heard a better description of the USA.
Imagine a state of mind where your jailers appear to you as your saviours.
This is the trick. To create an image of the other, a big bad world full of terrorists and dictators. A world so bad that you better count your blessings and see how lucky you really are, even while the boot is on your face.
The Soviets did it. The Chinese did it. The Americans did it.
That's not patriotism and security, it is xenophobia and fear.
Slowly but surely we are all getting wise to the shallow deceptions of our own leaders. That is where the opportunity for peace and prosperity is. But in order to see the countries we each really live in we must let go of the deception. I see so many articles on American sites like Slashdot, Digg and Techdirt that demonise North Korea, Iraq, Iran and China. They're always full of such uninformed and racist views.
Like you suggest, go and talk to real people from these countries and they tell you how actually their country is great, that it is us who have the problem. Hmm, strange that isn't it?
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Re:Why do they tolerate it?
Well thanks.... Red Bull...it gives you wings! ;)
I agree with the authors conclusions but despite our rhetoric and our self appointed position as the 'Defenders of Freedom" we're actually not that crash hot ourselves when it comes to democracy of the truest form.
Of course i'd rather live here than there...for now.... but still Chomskys' term "manufacturing consent" is a little more apt in my book than DoF. In many respects due to the crass nature of their cage their imprisonment is at least a little easier to spot... i have to wonder which is ultimately worse... although due to my lazy Westernized nature I'll probably just leave it up to Hollywood and science fiction to tell me what to think about that in the end....
and with respect to our "jailers", as dispicable as they are, on some level I have to respect what a well oiled "cage factory" they've managed to create....their smart enough even to provide a stage for us to passively feign our outrage at the "system".... as if any of us truely understands "just how deep the rabbit hole goes".
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You guys almost have it right...
Kim Song Il and Kim Jung Il both managed to confer their own delusions to the populace and though the inhabitants of NK have death and torture for their entire families at stake for even the simplest slip of the tongue, they do not know what is available outside their cage. They do believe that the rest of the world is worse off.
That being said, the information in NK is so well controlled that they do not have a clue that what is being done is wrong.
Remarkably, freedom of information in Japan does not necessarily provoke its citizens to stop what we as Americans would call atrocities. Comic books depicting violent rape are available to children on the street. Children nude in public is absolutely as acceptible as adults nude in public. They have game shows with a STRONG sexually perverted theme.
I saw one clip once in which three young women in bikinis were sitting on stools with a board in front covering their lower abdomens. The women were moaning and began to perform felatio on the microphones. The camera swtched to underneath one of the stools to reveal a wheel with feathers ticking one woman's genital region. After some audible excitement from the audience, I can only guess that the purpose was for the panel to guess which of the women was faking an orgasm and which was actually being stimulated, the boards dropped and revealed that only the one in the center was actually being 'tickled'.
I've spent time in many countries and I have heard from patriots of those countries, as well as those who desire nothing more than the chance to be an American. Every nation has its pluses and minuses, but most are unbalanced for the better.
This argument actually reminds me of my own youth, in the USA. My mother was an abusive drug addict and I endured it because I was convinced that everyone else had it just as bad. After I joined the Army and talked with people who actually missed thier parents because they had love in their lives, I realized that I grew up in a household as fundamentally wrong as NK, though no where near as bad in practice.
I don't speak with my mother now. I loathe her. She represents everything wrong in my life and I keep that far from my wife and kids, but I let them know that problems like this exist and that they don't ever have to put up with it.
I think that NK should revolt and take back their nation, but until enough of them realize what is actually being done to them, they won't.I've spent time in many countries and I have heard from patriots of those countries, as well as those who desire nothing more than the chance to be an American. Every nation has its pluses and minuses, but most are unbalanced for the better.
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interesting debate
while the united states has its down points, to equate the current governmental control to that of north korea is an utter absurdity. while you can draw hypothetical lines of conclusion towards this as an eventual outcome, this can only be done without an understanding of history or government. yes, there are laws presently enacted that are destroying some basic rights and freedoms of select groups of individuals. this cannot be expected to last. the "fast food" society that we presently live in expects things to be fixed on the scale of µseconds; while historically, this has never been the case. north korea is a communist country that has a one man dictatorship regime, this differs greatly from the system of government that exists in the states. anyone who says otherwise is naught but a sensationalist douche bag or a 3rd grader who doesn't know better.
what many people seem to be addressing, from the analogy of the cage, is that americans (united statesians?) tend to follow the belief that america is "holier than thou" and everyone wishes they could live here. while i won't disagree that this is the attitude many take up, this differs greatly from the analogy of the cage. a cage is something in which you cannot leave, in north korea this is partly the case. as has been mentioned, people fleeing often face imprisonment or torture if caught or returned by the chinese government, or they face social-psychological imprisonment imposed upon them by the south koreans. while the view of americans worldwide is often less than pleasurable, this often doesn't hold up in face to face relations. people of the western world often revert to judgment based on the individual, which is what our western cultures places an emphasis on, rather than retaining the view of being an "ignorant, self-centered, name any other negative adjective you call americans here" american. nationalized stereotypes are often dropped when an individual is met who does not display said stereotypes. of course, these stereotypes can still amplify personality traits, however, this is for a different discussion and i've gotten a tad bit sidetracked. frankly, equating the united states to north korea in such a manner shows a complete lack of basic understanding of the situation in both countries.
two cats are standing on a roof, which one falls off first?
...
...
...
the one with the weakest µ ... :D
some physics humor, sorry about that ;)
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Get this through your misinformed heads.
America is STILL one of the best places to live.
America will STILL come to the aid of people who need help just to survive.
America will STILL not stand by while the powerful kill and torture the weak.
Americans seem to forget that our country has a long, proud history of pulling folks butts out of the fire. The same french that curse us now wouldn't be sucking down air if we hadn't sacrificed tens of thousands of American lives on the beaches of Normandy sixty years ago.
How many of you smug little anti-americans wouldn't even exist if our soldiers hadn't pulled your great-grandparents out of Auchwitz?
How many more Iraqi people would have been tortured and killed under Saddam's rule if we hadn't acted when we did?
And the list goes on and on. Turn off CNN and turn on the History Channel. Listen to HISTORY, not what the sensationalistic media types want you to listen to right now to boost their ratings and curry favor in the political arena.
If I'm in a cage now, and should be longing to be "free" instead of wallowing in the comfort and security that our constitution provides, then so be it. And if you're not comfortable in this cage we call America, then by all means, move on out and give another nation's hospitality a try. If you don't like it, we'll let you back in... because we're ALWAYS trying to recruit people to join us in our cage.
Just look for the big copper Lady who has welcomed MILLIONS to our shore. Those folks wanted to hop into the cage too.
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North Korea Lectures South Korea On... Internet Fr
Oh no... are we the "silent majority?" or are the BabyBoomer just starting to finally grow up.
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And if you don't like it you can geeeet owt!!
I hate this logic, when things suck here. People vote, they don't just pack up and leave. Yet I always hear this as a suggestion from other Americans and I wish they would just take their own advice... But, they like the comfort of their rights under heavy scrutiny. Patriotic to a fault.
"Americans seem to forget that our country has a long, proud history of pulling folks butts out of the fire."
Yes, a long history of exploits like that gone wrong as well. History is written by the winners. Edits are made.
How many more Iraqi people would have been tortured and killed under Saddam's rule if we hadn't acted when we did?
I can't answer that one exactly, but is it any more than the 5000 of our own and more than 10000 of theirs in the course of less than 4 years?
This whole "Super Power America" attitude everyone has on nowadays is going to drive us right off a cliff.
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And you want to paint all of this reality like some glorious American effort for all humanity? GTFO!
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Re:
while i don't agree with the context in which this is often used (i must admit, sometimes people become so whiny that it is necessary, like the person on some previous post complaining that we should censor out all adult oriented themes from movies needs to gtfo), this very statement demonstrates the very basis that americans are not caged in. granted, the above poster wasn't using it as such and that very idea seems to have passed over his head, judging from the rest of his post.
you also err in the concept of things "sucking" here. i'm not going to say that everything is all peaches and cream, it never is. however, there are far worse times and far worse places to live and have lived than the united states in its current condition. sure, i see a lot of problems with this country, however, people have the absurd habit to only focus on the negative and the seeming need to constantly proclaim that everything is on a downhill slope, when, from a general view, that just isn't true. foreign commentators also bug me in their often hypocritical views. give me a condescending view of america and americans and your country of origin and i can show you an inversely condescending view.
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I'll not sit here and say America is perfect. Never has been, never will be. And I'll not sit here and apologize for having (probably) the best and most powerful military force in the world. If we were as militantly minded as some of you allude to, we wouldn't have X number of soldiers in Iraq... we'd have XXXXXXXX number of soldiers in Iran, N.Korea, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc, etc.
We have big guns. Maybe the biggest in the world. If we were the modern day Roman empire as some of you would have us to believe, then why aren't we bringing the full force of our big guns to ALL the hotspots in the world? It's because we're Americans. We don't fight unless we have to.
Don't believe that? Ask some of the surviving Japanese navy and nazi army about America's stance before & then AFTER Pearl Harbor. We didn't want to fight, but when you kick us in the balls, you'd better EXPECT to have a hell of a fight on your hands.
Take out the towers? Better be ready for the long haul, 'cause we're gonna put our foot on your neck.
We live in a dangerous world. We make mistakes like everyone else, but OVERALL I think America has always been the good guys. We certainly haven't invaded our neighboring states lately (anyone for surrendering Cannuks? LOL.. J/K)
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one more for the math people
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Your neighbours disagree
If by lately you mean in the 20th century, you're right (except for Cuba, Grenada, Panama and El Salvador). You haven't attacked your closest neighbours (Canada and Mexico) since the 19th century, so I guess you are getting soft. As for surrendering, well in the war of 1812 Canada kicked Yanky ass. Learn your history ignorant American.
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Re:
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Where was russia
They were on the retreat. So, Russia reached Auswitz first. Not that big a deal in the long run. (Not bashing the fact that they were first just that in the long haul it's only one event.)
Why did we go to war in Vietnam? Because the FRENCH needed help.
I can name one country right now that STILL owes us money, money that we don't expect back.
The UK.
I look around and see so many people flaming the US, and as mentioned above, you have 2 choices, either A) Vote for a change, or B) assuming your are to lazy to do that, get the hell out. Once you've lived elsewhere, should you decide that you want back in, well, our arms are always open.
Yes, we have our problems, I won't go into those here as it will lead me down an OT Rant, but overall I would say we have the best s**t right here in front of us.
I am AMERICAN, HEAR ME ROAR!
-Rstr5105
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Nork Internet Access
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Re: Where was russia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6215847.stm
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Re: Re: Where was russia
it's not a question of where he grips it, it's a simple question of weight ratios. a 5oz bird could not carry a 1 pound coconut.
listen in order to maintain airspeed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings 43 times every second... am i right?
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well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
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for those of us who actually took latin
it says, "romans go home. "
no it doesn't... what's the latin for roman? come on, come on!
er, romanus
vocative plural of romanus is?
er... er... romani
eunt? what is eunt? conjugate the verb "to go"
er... ire... er... eo, is, it, imus, itis, eunt
so eunt is...?
third person plural present indicative, "they go"
but, "romans go home" is an order. so you must use...?
the imperative
which is...?
i
how many Romans?
aaahh plural, plural, er, ite
domus? nominative? "go home" is motion towards, isn't it?
dative, er, not the dative, not the dative, er... er... accusative, "domus"
but "domus" takes the locative, which is...?
er... "domum"
(romani ite domum)
understand? now write it out a hundred times
yes sir, thank you, sir... hail caesar, sir
hail caesar... and if it's not done by sunrise, i'll cut your balls off
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re:interesting debate
Actually i was referring more to an intangible (and well manufactured) state of mind as the cage you cannot leave rather than any physical/geographical reality of someone particular nationality or citizenship. Hence my original rhetorical question about why these people dont revolt.....
anyone who says otherwise is naught but a sensationalist douche bag or a 3rd grader who doesn't know better.
You've missed my point by such a wide margin as to provide a perfect working example of it.
frankly, equating the united states to north korea in such a manner shows a complete lack of basic understanding of the situation in both countries.
Agreed but of course its you who is talking in terms of absolute equivalency so you're really just bouncing off your own walls there... With respect to the actual article, my response was meant as something of a circular parody in keeping with the underlying theme of the article, which could just as easily be paraphrased as "Pot Calls Kettle Black".... my point being we're all potty in our own way so lets get not too high on our "democratic" horse..... North Korea is not by any stretch of the imagination the only nation capable of vulgar displays of hypocrisy.
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An apt self description for sure.
Get this through your misinformed heads. America is STILL one of the best places to live. America will STILL come to the aid of people who need help just to survive. America will STILL not stand by while the powerful kill and torture the weak.
Feel free to point out where anyone has said otherwise..... America CAN also be one of the worst places to live, America HAS also created conditions where people need aid in order to survive and with respect to Abu Gurab, Guantanamo and whatever other black spots we have operating via the practise of rendition, America the powerful DOES provide the means and measures by which (undoubtedly) innocents are tortured. You need to direct your call for a reasoned and balanced analysis of the US inward.
Prior to your rant we were generally discussing the hypocrisy of one state calling out another given what can only be described as the obvious natural order of things. No one said America is ALL bad. What was said is that America and the West in general is hardly perfect itself..... and that recently it has undertaken a march on civil liberties move it closer to the position of an NK like regime than it was 10 years ago. The basis of this article is the absurdity of the NK position which is a fair point....but that hardly makes us immune from a similar charge of being equally absurd...equally hypocritical.... pretty much all the time.... along with a very unhealthy dollop of typical western arrogance to boot.
Frankly it surprises me that anyone could suggest a caged mindset is poor analogy given the way those like you perfunctorily set about sheathing yourselves in the protective membrane of the red, white and blue the moment anyone dares to suggest that America is anything less than absolutely perfect. As i said "I wonder if they scoff at our cages as much as we scoff at theirs?".
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sorry, the latter part of my post was more along a
tangent rant. i was sidetracked from my initial point (which is often what happens when i talk about politics, which is one reason i dislike talking about them) and looking at the second half it doesn't even have any real coherency, so please disregard that.
You've missed my point by such a wide margin as to provide a perfect working example of it.
sure, i'm always happy to provide proof towards something, but i still disagree with this assessment of yours about extending towards the logical conclusion of the result of the patriot act and a constant threat of terrorism. the psychological mindset between the two nations are completely different. would it be a hypothetical possibility in the states were you to exclude all other variables? sure. and yes, i'm dealing with absolutes but my areas of study are physics and mathematics, so please bear with me. in fact, don't bear with me, because it's late and i don't feel like continuing an argument i shouldn't really be arguing, as the analogy of cage is good enough for me at this time of night, and i have the tendency to nitpick over trivial issues.
did i do the one about the cats? and the calculus plus mom joke? hmm
ok... [google]
a biologist, physicist and a mathematican are sitting in a cafe opposite a bank drinking coffee.
They see 2 people walk into the bank, after a while 3 walk out.
The physicist says there must have been an error in the initial observation.
The biologist says they must have reproduced.
The mathematican says if exactly one more person walks into the bank it will be empty.
[that has to be one of my newest favorite jokes]
Mrs. Schroedinger to Mr. Schroedinger: What the hell did you do to the cat?
It looks half dead!
[that was good too]
I have a quantum car. Every time I look at the speedometer I get lost...
-
What did heisenberg say about sex?
if you've got the position you haven't got the momentum & if you've got the
energy you haven't got the time!
[and one for the students]
If a professor ever asks you where that assignment is that you didn't do,
just say that you know its momentum so precisely that it could be almost anywhere in the universe.
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You've all missed the point.
He's right. NK's assertions are correct.
...He's also a hypocrite, comparable to the likes of Ted Kennedy.
Bottom line: South Korean needs to change their policies.
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Re: one more for the math people
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So the biologist looks at the chickens, examines them a bit, and says he has no clue what could be wrong with them.
Then the chemist takes some tests and makes some measurements, but he can't come to any conclusions either.
So the physicist tries. He stands there and looks at the chickens for a long time without touching them or anything. Then all of the sudden he starts scribbling away in a notebook. Finally, after several gruesome calculations, he exclaims, 'I've got it! But it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum.'
-
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Issac Newton: Chickens at rest tend to stay at rest, chickens in motion tend to cross roads.
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Albert Einstein: Whether the chicken crossed the road or the road crossed the chicken depends upon your frame of reference.
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Ummm...
This is the only good, or even revelant thought on this whole article. nice job KelpBoots.
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Re:
The past happened and it makes things the way they are today. NK is safer from the rest of the world now than it's ever been.
People have to be pretty desperate to build a cage like that.
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stinkywizzleteats
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America the Great
Wonder who enjoyed our president's state of the union speech where we are now going to focus on alternative energy.........Hmmm, related to the fact that Iraq will not be requesting statehood? America will stand by while the weak are tortured. Happens all the time. Perhaps a visit to our base in Cuba would help. Rwanda anyone? When we went to war with other countries to expand our interests it was all about "manifest destiny". When others do it then it is wrong. Fortunately I live in a country that is willing to do whatever it takes to protect our interests, while giving the people the belief it is all about making the world a better place. You gotaa love it. This may sound sarcastic, but it really is great. And as 90% of the country does not read much, and surely could not locate more than 2 countries outside the US on a map (thanks to the weather charts showing Mexico and Canada). I also do not operate under the false belief that what I post here will change anything at all. Pretty cool. Also do not pull out your "WWI/WWII" retoric on how the US saved Europe. We would have been fine had Germany taken a break instead of continuing to expand. They really made a mess of things for us all. Would have been fine if that had just held on to Europe and left England and Africa alone. Russia was fine too I suspect. Of course parts of Europe are thankful that we interceded. However we did that for us, not for their sake.
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Re: Dorpus
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PhysicsGuy
:D that just an excuse so that I can post this joke which I think you'll appreciate (my commutative algebra lecturer keeps a page of these at http://www.maths.nott.ac.uk/personal/ibf/jokes.html):
Several scientists were all posed the following question: "What is 2 * 2 ?"
The engineer whips out his slide rule (so it's old) and shuffles it back and forth, and finally announces "3.99".
The physicist consults his technical references, sets up the problem on his computer, and announces "it lies between 3.98 and 4.02".
The mathematician cogitates for a while, then announces: "I don't know what the answer is, but I can tell you, an answer exists!".
Philosopher smiles: "But what do you mean by 2 * 2 ?"
Logician replies: "Please define 2 * 2 more precisely."
The sociologist: "I don't know, but is was nice talking about it".
Behavioral Ecologist: "A polygamous mating system".
Medical Student : "4" All others looking astonished : "How did you know ??" Medical Student : :I memorized it."
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ps
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Re: Where was russia
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WWII
in world war one Germany made a mistake, and that was not being on beter terms with britain. IF that had been the case, then germany might well have been allied with Britan, and that would have meant that the war in the North Atlantic would not have lead to the destruction of so much US shipping, so the US would not have entered the war. (although in 1812, Britan and the Prussians were alllied against France, and the uSA trried to steal Canada while the Redcoats were busy elsewhere, and the Marines had to burn the White House before hte USA minded its own business again. Maybe that would have happened in WWI too. food for thought for the Alternalte history people)
Maybe we should get back on topic. Yeas this comment from Kim is hypocritical, but this seems to be normal behaviour for the NK govt, and is only to be expected. Man bitten by dog, really, but worth it for the laughs.
maybe I shall have to come up with a fourth law of internet comminication expalining the way in which any topic on freedoms tend toend up talking about the War.
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Re: WWII
Either way, gotta love NK.
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