200 Million Americans Can't Be Felons: Why The Law Will Change Before People Stop Sharing Content

from the information-revolution dept

Fri, Mar 16th 2007 7:26pm — Mike Masnick

David Levine points us to an interesting blog post by Larry Downes at The Center for Internet and Society comparing "the information revolution" to revolutions in the past -- and notes that the legal infrastructure needs to change to match the economic realities of the information age, just as the legal infrastructure needed to changed to meet economic realities during past revolutions. As he says, "200 million Americans can't be felons."

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98 Comments

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Ryan, 16 Mar 2007 @ 7:43pm

200 million can't be felons?
Sure they can... We can cut the whole education budget by locking up all of our children until they're old enough to be shipped to Iraq.

It's win win for everybody!
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Erv, 16 Mar 2007 @ 7:45pm

The whole Bush administration are crooks so Americans are just following their leaders.
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God's Honest Truth, 16 Mar 2007 @ 8:33pm

You are a sad strange little man, but you don't have my pity.

On a side note the article makes perfect sense. As past criminals (i.e. the founding fathers) sometimes turn out to be tomorrow's heros.

Kinda scary isn't it =)
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Derrick Hinkle, 16 Mar 2007 @ 9:15pm

Hackers Manifesto makes a couple interesting points to this sort. (Google it)
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dontgetstuckonstupid, 16 Mar 2007 @ 11:37pm

The comments here are getting as bad as slashdot. Thanks moonbats.
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CH, 17 Mar 2007 @ 12:28am

What fools these mortals be!!!!! (Especially Ryan & Erv)
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Michael Long, 17 Mar 2007 @ 2:02am

199,999,999?
It was with no small amount of interest that I jumped to the article, eager to see just what felon 200 million Americans were committing... only to be disappointed. He doesn't say.

He likens the information "revolution" to others in the past, mostly, it would seem, because it too contains the word "revolution" in the title. It says that the "legal infrastructure needs to change", but fails to mention what needs to change, and in what way.

He mentions YouTube, and since this is TechDirt, so one can only assume it has something to do with copyright violation, but it seems to me that he, too, is making a major set of assumptions as well. You see, as an author and publisher in several fields, I tend to respect the rights of creators. I haven't uploaded copywritten material to YouTube. Haven't torrented my music and movies, in fact, I've actually bought from iTMS. All of my software is paid for, with the exception of several F/OSS programs, and even there I've donated to a couple of projects.

So while the line, "200 Million Americans Can't Be Felons" sounds eminently quotable, upon examination it too is as full as fluff as the rest of the article itself.

Then again, it could be that the quote should be "199,999,999 Americans Can't Be Felons." But since I hardly think I'm unique in this regard, I doubt that one is accurate either...
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Jess, 17 Mar 2007 @ 2:14am

Education in America Sucks!!!
The question shouldn't be why are we taking money away from our schools when my kid can't even multiply 6 and 6. It should be: How come my kid can't multiply 6 and 6 he could do it before I sent him to you guys!!!! Our schools are notoriously bad when it comes to education. And it mostly lays on the shoulders of the parents. Your child's education is just as, if not more important, than that meeting or secretary you're seeing on the side. Maybe the faculty should be more concerned about what the kids are learning rather than what they could learn about in school. i.e. sex, drugs, etc. Let the parents worry about the rest. Goddamn hippies.
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Frank, 17 Mar 2007 @ 2:34am

Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
And it mostly lays on the shoulders of the parents
Actually, parents are only one piece of the puzzle.
- parents -- only in so far as they make education a priority and ensure that Johnny is doing his homework.
- television -- studies show that the amount of television that a child watches is the most important factor in determining success in school; more than social, economic, or racial factors.
- teacher's unions -- There are way too many teachers that have no business in the classroom -- teacher's unions clamoring for more pay have no intention of getting rid of bad teachers. From experience with four kids, I would say 25% of the teachers should be fired.
Okay, so it's politically incorrect to mention the elephant in the room. Get over it. Too many teachers are grossly incompetent. My daughter’s high school English teacher comes to school stoned on marijuana. One of the high school math teachers refuses to explain math concepts if he’s declared it “party day”. And at least one of the P.E. teacher’s thinks locking the boys and girls together in a room unsupervised is a cool thing to do.

But it’s much more politically correct to blame the parents.
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Cixelsid, 17 Mar 2007 @ 2:57am

Re: 199,999,999? by Micheal Long
Dear Micheal,

You are like those people who say "I never lie". We all know its bullshit. Time you stop lying to yourself.

Best Regards
Reality
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IronChef, 17 Mar 2007 @ 3:46am

Just challenging the status quo here...
I've long agreed with David Levine's perspective, Mike. What's interesting is that he managed to convey many of the things I've had trouble bringing to the table myself.

But Perrsonally, I find it interesting that you published this, especially after your Scarce Goods post earlier in the week. Are you playing devil's advocate on this one? I'm beside myself in the berevity of your commentary as well.
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IronChef, 17 Mar 2007 @ 3:50am

Person at #11
Oops, Meant Larry Downs.
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haywood, 17 Mar 2007 @ 3:52am

I thought the laws were set up........
I thought the laws were set up so that anyone at any time had to be breaking some law no matter how obscure. I just thought that was how we have a police state masquerading as a free state, and no one is the wiser.

"The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced."
- Frank Zappa
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Brian Wigglemeyer, 17 Mar 2007 @ 4:25am

Laughing at the 2 party system
Not to bring politics into it, but man, right now would be a great time to be a 3rd party independent...

There's a crazy force right under the surface that could steal from both sides... The Dems seem too Left, dislike business. Repubs seem too much in a quandry, trying to figure out their head from their tail.

Perfect time for a good 3rd party to come into the picture, eh?
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Dave Reinsel, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:27am

If everyone does it, then it's right?
So, bring the drinking age down to 16 because millions of teens drink at that age anyway, rid the highways of speed limits because millions of people exeed them anyway, loosen the rules on plagiarsm since millions of students/adults do it regularly. That's right, change the law to match behavior, good insight.
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Jill-the-pill, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:41am

limited scope?
Dave, hon, that isn't it at all. Too limited a scope (black-n-white) It's not about making wrong into right, it's about adapting to what is.
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Jess, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:51am

Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
You know. You're right. But the reason they can get away with that is because parents do nothing about it. If every parent in your school threatened to pull their child out of school due to those things then they would do something about it. But most parents are blissfully ignorant of what their children are facing at school.
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Carlos Lee, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:59am

200 Million Americans Can't Be Felons
200 Million Americans Can't Be Felons, and a Billion Flies can't be wrong either: Eat Shit.
-
No, but he's somehow right. People will not be coerced or forced into paying for content they are exposed to, and then have to go, run and pay for it. Anything of interest to poeple should be free to them in some form or another, and only the premium content, the high quality copy of a CD, with Manual, Glossy, Story, Lyrics and Packaging should be offered for sale. The crappy and scratchy 128k MP3's online should be free and available for people of all financial means.
-
If the Recording Industry Cartell would have let things alone, then we all would have a chance to find our Favorite Music, and the ones of us that like to pay for Premium Content, like to support our Artists, Like only ONE SONG of a otherwise Crappy CD, would have paid for that content. BUt now it's all blow out of proportions. We are in a war again.
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Erv Corrected, 17 Mar 2007 @ 6:17am

Re:
I'm afraid you are confusing the Clinton Administration for the Bush Administration. Clearly you are uneducated based on your original comment, so I thought I should help clear up the facts. Start researching Whitewater in 1978, and then follow the other criminal investigations - not just stealing, but murder and treason!

Here's some more info for you about the Clinton Administration:
- The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal malfeasance
- Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and associates
- Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal investigation
- Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to testify
- Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
- First president sued for sexual harassment.
- First president accused of rape.
- First first lady to come under criminal investigation
- Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign contribution case
- First president to establish a legal defense fund.
- First president to be held in contempt of court
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
- Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad
- First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a state court
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2007 @ 6:33am

Re:
fuck u erv
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Nobody Special, 17 Mar 2007 @ 6:39am

2/3 of America shares files?
I just don't buy it. Once again, Techdirt has gone for sensationalism.
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Meta Erv Corrected, 17 Mar 2007 @ 7:20am

Re: Re:
I'm afraid your little time machine took you back to the Reagan-Bush I era.

"I was not in the loop" - G.H.W. Bush.
"None of this [attorney firings] can be laid at the President's feet." - Tony Snow about W.
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George E. Black, 17 Mar 2007 @ 7:31am

Re: If everyone does it, then it's right?
So, bring the drinking age down to 16 because millions of teens drink at that age anyway, rid the highways of speed limits because millions of people exeed them anyway, loosen the rules on plagiarsm since millions of students/adults do it regularly.
Let's see, the topic of discussion is making felons out of the majority of citizens. So it would seem that you are, by sarcasm, advocating that the activities you listed should be felonies. I guess a police state can be a good thing, for the police that is.
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John C. Capps, 17 Mar 2007 @ 7:36am

Re: If everyone does it, then it's right?
If everyone does it, then it's right?

It's a concept called "democracy", where the majority determines what is right and wrong. You should look it up. It's way better than your fascism.
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Robert V. Ryan, 17 Mar 2007 @ 7:48am

200 Million Americans Can Be Felons
200 million Americans absolutely can be felons. Criminalizing the general population is very useful in the creation of a police state. To think that it just can't happen is naive.
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Andy, 17 Mar 2007 @ 7:55am

Re:
Why do you blame a bad institution like the American legal system on President Bush. Sure he is not a talented president, and he's messed up alot of stuff. But to use reductionist logic and blame an institution totally unrelated to a political adminisitration is very un-academic.
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Arochone, 17 Mar 2007 @ 8:03am

Re: If everyone does it, then it's right?
Remove the drinking age. What does it hurt? Just stop giving healthcare to people for drug related issues. Not all drunks are retarded. Hell, the three smartest kids in my school are druggies.
Highways without speed limits work fine. Look at the Autobahn.
I honestly don't know anyone who's plagiarized anything, but that's what science is. 'standing on the shoulders of giants' as someone once said. Get rid of those laws and we'd have a lot more progress.

So yup, you're right. Change the laws to match behavior.
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jon, 17 Mar 2007 @ 8:19am

re: education
Education is *way* off-topic but the people who wrote about it hear can get away with their silly comments. You want good teachers? Pay them! You have to pay taxes, you can't get it for free.

In 2004 the average teacher made $46,597. How much did you make? Why should teachers have to sacrifice their financial well-being to educate your kids?

You want good teachers pay them a decent wage. You want mediocrity stay the course.
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Frank, 17 Mar 2007 @ 8:24am

Pulling the kids out doesn't solve the problem ..
except for the one child.
The principal is supposedly the person a parent is supposed to go to -- but the unions have tied their hands as well.
And by the way, blaming the parent for the teacher's drug use is a bit disingenuous.
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OMAC, 17 Mar 2007 @ 8:59am

RE: Michael Long and David Reinsel
Michael Long...

I bet you never went past the speed limit in your car or jaywalked either. We all break the law, it's a fact.

David Reinsel...

Your argument is full of shit. It's people like you that are responsible for the state that this country is in. You react rather than respond, and anything that contradicts your view is ignored and belittled.

You claim that a drinking age of 16 is bad. I would direct you to Europe, Germany in particular. They have a minimum drinking age of 16 and they get along just fine. As far as speeding, again, I direct you to Germany's Autobahn, which has no speed limit. Are there some 16 year olds that have a drinking problem? Do they have horrific crashes on the Autobahn? The answer to yes is both, but then again, those same problems exist in America.

The core argument of the RIAA and MPAA, that stealing is wrong, is a valid argument, but they impose the definition of stealing on a random basis. It's okay to borrow a friends CD, but it isn't okay to download the same CD from the Internet. It's okay to record a movie on your VCR at home but it's illegal to make a copy of a DVD that you own. Their interpretation and definitions make no sense. It's compounded when talented 'artists' like Steven Spielberg open their mouth and say such ridiculous things like 'I don't want my movies watched on iPods'.

Then there is the whole issue of the extortion tactics they use with their 'Pay us $5000 now or we will sue you for $500,000' lawsuits. As more and more of these cases go to trial, more and more of them are getting successfully challenged. Some of the people they have sued are completely innocent, yet they blunder on. People would have a lot more respect (myself included) for the RIAA/MPAA if they payed for their mistakes, but they don't. If they lose a case or realize they have the wrong person, that person is still on the hook for their legal fees. If you sue someone and are proven wrong, you need to bear the cost of the other guys defense. The RIAA steamrolls over innocent people. Period.

Do artists need to be compensated for their work? Absolutely. I am all for that, but the current system needs to change in order to make everyone happy.
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Mike, 17 Mar 2007 @ 9:22am

Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
Do not forget that in some states with a high illegal Hispanic population, we have to "dumb down" the legal students by teaching at a slower rate to ensure that the illegals that speak limited English can understand (so they can make passing grades on the AIMS/TAKS tests).
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vikodin, 17 Mar 2007 @ 9:54am

ya know, i knew for some reason this would turn into a big cry fest.... you cant stop this anymore. lock us all up or leave us alone. we let people go for murder on technicalities but make parents pay back for stealing kids... i love hipocracy!!! im gonna break every law as long as i can, and after i get cought i will use that knowledge to be a smarter lawbreaker....
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Mike's a DUMBASS!!!, 17 Mar 2007 @ 10:08am

Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
something Hispanics have you don't....their bilingual and sometimes even speak three or four languages so Chingate Puto!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2007 @ 10:22am

Re: If everyone does it, then it's right?
> So, bring the drinking age down to 16 because millions of teens drink at that age anyway,

Yes, then we will be like central Europe where the drinking age is 14 and rates of alcoholism and drunk driving are 1% of the U.S.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2007 @ 10:25am

Re: 200 Million Americans Can Be Felons
> 200 million Americans absolutely can be felons. Criminalizing the general population is very useful in the creation of a police state. To think that it just can't happen is naive.

I agree. We are well on our way and it is clearly the intent of both parties to make 90%+ of the population felons. That way...
1. They can't vote the crooked politicians out of power.
2. They have few, if any, legal rights.
3. They are subjected to economic slavery for the rest of their lives.
4. Their children's DNA will be, in effect, in a database from conception.

Welcome to America, home of the cowarding dictators and modern Nazis. Different name, same sht.
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Erv's Dad, 17 Mar 2007 @ 11:38am

Re:
Erv, you are just an ass. Your mom was right, we should have let you drown in the toilet that day.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2007 @ 11:52am

Re: Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
Actually your the Dumb ass! Your getting offended over the truth.
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Pontius, 17 Mar 2007 @ 12:41pm

Hand-wringing/washing
Techdirt readers were once intelligent and reasonable people. Where do they all go?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2007 @ 12:42pm

> Erv, you are just an ass. Your mom was right, we should have let you drown in the toilet that day.

I think "Erv's Dad" impostor proves Erv's point by showing that only retarded fuccks support Bush.
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Richard Torekull, 17 Mar 2007 @ 12:57pm

Re: If everyone does it, then it's right? / DAve
So, bring the drinking age down to 16 because millions of teens drink at that age anyway, rid the highways of speed limits because millions of people exeed them anyway, loosen the rules on plagiarsm since millions of students/adults do it regularly. That's right, change the law to match behavior, good insight.
Interesting perspective, but how come we're the only superpower with drinking age at 21, yet we have the highest per capita drinking-related deaths, of all countries? Germany still has no speed limit on the Autobahn, they also have wider lanes and extremely strict laws. If you are caught drinking, just one offense, in Germany, they throw the book at you, and you'll never drive again.

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Lowell McMannus, 17 Mar 2007 @ 1:06pm

Happy St Patties day.
Sit back and enjoy the day, for today is St. Patty's day. Free Green Beer for all on TechDirt.

Who can be upset with a culture that believes in little men who guard a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow?
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Anonymouse, 17 Mar 2007 @ 1:38pm

Re: Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
So do explain why when I was still in school, a majority of my classmates could barely read? Didn't know proper grammar? Couldn't do basic math? Had no logic skills? etc? This is from schools with little to no Hispanic population. What do you blame if you can't blame the "illegals" ?

Just because someone comes from another country (regardless of method) doesn't make them an idiot from the get go. Like another poster said, many foreigners speak several languages. What do you speak? Poor English?

I get so happy when someone uses you're/your and their/there/they're correctly.

I forget who said it, but there is a quote I like.

"The population of the world increases while the IQ remains a constant."
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pudro, 17 Mar 2007 @ 1:46pm

Re: Re: (#19)
I'm afraid you are confusing the Clinton Administration for the Bush Administration.

Want to hear something funny? The Clintons and Bushes have always worked together. The largest CIA (headed by G. H. W. Bush) sponsored drug runner operated out of Arkansas (with Clinton as Gov.) with immunity. And that is just the tip.
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Extreme Centrist, 17 Mar 2007 @ 1:55pm

Re: Hand-wringing/washing
200,000,000 realized that flames and irrelevant comments are more fun?
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Extreme Centrist, 17 Mar 2007 @ 1:58pm

Re: Clinton
"Most number" and "most amount" should be "largest"...
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Extreme Centrist, 17 Mar 2007 @ 2:12pm

Re: re: education
Jon, you're correct in saying teachers should be well compensated, and the ones I know pretty much are. However, my Dad spent 30 years teaching remedial English in a junior college supporting what he claimed was the worst school district in the country (Oakland, CA). You couldn't pay him, or any other good teacher I know, enough to work in an inner-city school. He, and they, do it for deeper reasons. We would do better to show them respect and give them genuine support, rather than trying to "upgrade" them by luring "better" people with higher pay.
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garyk, 17 Mar 2007 @ 2:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
>So do explain why when I was still in school, a majority of my classmates could barely read? Didn't know proper grammar? Couldn't do basic math? Had no logic skills? etc? This is from schools with little to no Hispanic population. What do you blame if you can't blame the "illegals" ?
>

You have no idea how good I felt reading that.

Seriously people complain that the world is going down the drain. That is some real bullshit. The world has advanced so much in such a short time. I've heard several people say the world was better in the '50s. Oh was that true for the, blacks, Hispanics, atheists, communists? I don't think so.

The world now is much more open than before, however, numerous people refuse to change with the natural progression of society.
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Mike, 17 Mar 2007 @ 2:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
If I am such a dumbass, then why are we wasting tax money putting a lot of the illegals through English immersion classes so they can sit in our classrooms? If they were bilingual like you state, then you would not need those classes would you?
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Iron Chef, 17 Mar 2007 @ 2:38pm

Some schools aren't even issuing homework anymore.

No Child left behind has been the biggest joke in American Education in the past 8 years because it removes comradrebetween kids, students, and incentive for kids to excel.
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jon, 17 Mar 2007 @ 4:28pm

re: education @ Extreme Centrist
You are absolutely right. There are many teachers right now who are wonderful, but they tend to be the minority and many of them burnout quickly. The ones that stay are modern saints.

The intention of my point wasn't so much about getting an "upgrade" but rather to say that we should make it so that the people who would be good teachers, but aren't willing to be saints, can teach.

I wouldn't touch K-12 public education with a ten foot pole because I have student loans to pay and I'd like to own a home one day, and I love teaching.

If you adjust for inflation many teachers have seen decreased salary over the last couple years. That is just wrong, if a person cares about educating their children then they have to pay that person more than an administrative assistant. In some states teachers aren't even paid as much as one.

ON-TOPIC:
Mobocracy doesn't work very well. Laws are (supposedly) based on reason, if there are a lot of people doing something then the law should be reevaluated to see if it is unreasonable. However, history has shown us many times that large groups sometimes do things that they should not— sometimes it is legal other times it is illegal, but that doesn't make it right. So the question is still: are that laws that maket 200 million Americans commit a felony reasonable?
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St. Paddy, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:02pm

PCD
To the table, I bring the phenomenon known as "The Pussy Cat Dolls" for discussion. Here you have a group of women that were auditioned for their looks, dancing ability, voice, and, most importantly, their ability to take direction. They have spawned 5 hit singles. I will admit that I, who have listened to only independent music for my entire music loving life, shunning the radio for decades, actually like some of their songs, in all of their simple pop glory. They have achieved the goal of entertaining me. They did not however, achieve their main goal, and really the only reason for their creation, which is to sell me a CD. I have even watched an episode of their TV show, however embarrassing that may be to admit.
Consider me mildly entertained.
This is not, however, the creation of an artist, at least not the one on screen. This is the creation of a cunning and sharp business woman, and as a businessman, I deeply respect her abilities. As we all know, the primary goal of business is to make money, and she has done this well.
This is not music. Period. This is a corporation with a marketable product engineered by a highly skilled team. This is not some group of 21 year olds that have been playing in Bobby's garage since grade school, perfecting their craft.
It is very tough for me to hand money over to something that only mildly entertains me, and even harder when I know it is more like buying stock than supporting an artist.
I buy artists records, regardless of label or origin, whenever i see fit.
I often 'test drive' said records on myspace, or youtube, having wasted $15-20 time and time again on albums that just didnt cut it.
There is a tremendous difference between artists and businesses masquerading as artists.
Artists have and always will make the vast majority of their money from touring. This is true from the local bar band to 50-cent.
Businesses will always make their money from record sales.
I will always support artists, because I am one.
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Sal, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:06pm

re #50
"sometimes it is legal other times it is illegal, but that doesn't make it right"

Right based on what? The way democracy is supposed to work is what's "right" or not is based on what most of the citizens want. That is why I hate minorities getting everything they want, but that's another issue.
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DB, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:19pm

Re: Re:
That you, Bill?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:37pm

Sharing content, in other words STEALING content that people have put lots of time and money into creating? That isn't a crime? You aren't entitled to have any content you want, artists and producers and such need to get paid for their hard work that you are enjoying.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:45pm

Re: re: education
I work for a company that makes enormous containers. Some of them are multi-million dollar jobs. I get paid $22k/year to do the engineering and blueprints. Thanks for wanting to make me quit even more. I would be perfectly happy making that much money.
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B_Billy, 17 Mar 2007 @ 5:53pm

Teachers
I live on Long Island, NY and teaching in a public school is a very high-paying job. Sure it costs a lot to live here as well, but there are no teachers here (except substitutes) that are struggling. $47K-ish might be the national average, but teachers here make way more than that.
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TheAnswerLiesWithin, 17 Mar 2007 @ 6:26pm

problems, hah!
k-12 schooling
___________________
the problem takes care of itself. SAT score avgs on a state basis doesn't mean anything.Some states like CA don't require ALL students to take the SATs..only the ones looking to continue their education. I live in Georgia, consistently one of the lowest ranked states education wise according to the SAT score lineups. Georgia requires all of the students to take the SAT if they're in public school. In my area there are 2 private HighSchools for every 1 public school. Cheapest ones run around 7-8k a year + books + summer reading books + lunch money. The most expensive one is at 11k a year now. The SAT scores from all these private schools are all kept..private. You may see a lot of numbers in the newspapers and on the tv screen but none of them mean anything unless you understand how they are calculated. The public school system across most of Georgia is TERRIBLE. Kids can't read, write, or do algebra. It's not their fault, it's the fault of the state. Teachers of these private schools don't make any more money than the public school teachers, there's no tenure, and often times if they don't hold the chair of their department they may make less money than if they went to the public school down the street. However, they don't have to put up with ANY SHIT from ANY students. They can use physical force to remove you from a classroom, they can kick you the f*ck out of the school for any reason at all. You bet your a** the students behave and learn the material or else risk being kicked out, and have to put up with their parents breathing down their neck about it. It was funny, at the beginning of each semester in HS you knew which seniors didn't make the grades that semester by who was driving their new car to school or by who was being dropped off my mommy and daddy. I made my grades and didn't get to drive, but that was my parents being nazis. Either nazis are good parents. I'll decide in 10 more years when I have a job, a car, house, wife, children, and a boat to take my son fishing on. If the public schools don't provide what you want then there's always the private sector. Don't even argue but they cost money..cause I had many friends whose parents in all reality could not afford the school their child was at. A few would eat macaroni and cheese and pbjs a few nights out of the week. Cancel the cable tv, DSL, etc... They all made it and their children do as well as I do in school, a few even better.

Clinton was a bad president, no doubt about it.
Bush is a bad president, no doubt about that.

We the people of the United States of America are to blame for not investigating these people further.
Congress is to blame for giving those 2 dogs too much free roam on their leashes.
The media is to blame for sensationalizing everything that doesn't matter and burying all the information that did matter. Blame goes in all directions and this is still a democratic-republic (we have a house AND senate, that's a democratic-republic...nothing else but.) The USA still has many laws going all the way back to the 1600s..the blue laws...the origin of all the age limits on boozing (my fav't past time). In some states out west it's still illegal to steal horses and the punishment can be a good ol' hanging. There are a lot of laws still in the books that need to be cleaned out. in Georgia it is illegal to have more than 1.75L of alcohol in your car at any given time...law goes back to AL Capone's rum running business along I-95. Ever heard of anyone being hung for cattle rustling or going to jail for rum running, hell no.

I hate lawyers, I hate politicians, and I hate people who play the blame game (mostly lawyers and politicians). They ALL lie, cheat and steal on your tax dollar. With this new age of information I can pull up on google a ton of information on all of the candidates running in any election in less than 10 minutes of time. Weigh your sources for credibility, just cuz it was the intarweb doesn't mean it was true.

Vote.

Our government and military grows and shrinks, we go from liberal to conservative like a pendalum swinging.

There's no one answer, and time is on our side.
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OMAC, 17 Mar 2007 @ 6:40pm

"Sharing content, in other words STEALING content that people have put lots of time and money into creating? That isn't a crime? You aren't entitled to have any content you want, artists and producers and such need to get paid for their hard work that you are enjoying."

What about the people that are innocent yet still steamrolled by the RIAA? Do they not have any rights? The RIAA wants to make MP3 players and iPods illegal. How fair is that?

The artists do get paid for what they are doing. Because this is a free-market economy, they are getting paid what they are worth. I am not going to pay $13 for a whole CD just because I like one song. The music industry has been running on an inflated cash flow because there was no way to buy only the song you wanted until the Internet came along. Because of this, the RIAA is throwing a tantrum. They want to preserve their "$13 for one song" model, and it isn't going to happen.

One last question. How much time and energy goes into your average song?
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rushonbye, 17 Mar 2007 @ 7:35pm

Re: Re: Re:
Except that attorney firings are not illegal. Just look back to the Clinton administration to find that 93 out of 94 Fed. Attorneys were fired for political reasons. The only difference is that Clinton fired 'em to cover more of his shady and very illegal shenagans.
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oh21, 17 Mar 2007 @ 7:55pm

Dumb is as dumb speaks ....
A US President getting a blow job in the Oval Office, no one died, just lied. Considering the present FUBAR (relativity analogy), I wish for those good old days for all US, EU, Iraq ....

More than 3000 citizens murdered at work on 911. More than 3000 of our brave warriors sent to die for the whimsical lies of a US President. People die from anthrax bio-poison, millions of illegal unidentifiable non-US people crossing open borders, Customs Agents (patriotic political prisoners) doing a great job are sent to prison by a puppet court ....

I can make a much bigger and far more significant list, then any dumb delusional religious dogmatic, for the present WH admin, and the congress has been equally evil by standing aside and letting all these horrors over the Bush-Iraq quagmire happen to US, EU, Iraq ....

The terrorist get away, the anthrax murder never found, Mexican Drug-Thugs go free and the US Customs agents go to prison, law enforcement (Justice Dept) knows don't ask corporatist and they will not tell about exploitation of illegal workers/employees. We, "The Citizens" and our warriors, have been screwed by democrat and republican politicians for the past few decades more than any time in history. I am reminded of reading about the fall of Athens, Carthage, Rome ... our politicians are destroying everything for which our forefathers worked and died ... No DRAFT, means NOT MY CHILD left behind in a battlefield grave. Many Vietnam era guard units were proxy draft-dodger puppet post for rich children ... the poor draft-dodger ran for Canada. Our REAL PATRIOTS serve in war-zones not proxy cock-sucker post at home.

We no longer have a Christian, Capitalist, Democratic ... culture in the USA. The USA culture is now based on bending-over for corporatist and plutocrats servicing

We need to always vote the incumbent politician out of office from President to any elected dog catcher. We need return to a Government for the People and By the People. Career politicians are destroying US ... just like Athens, Carthage, Rome ....

FUCK THE POOR, FEED THE WEALTHY.
BLEED THE POOR, PRAISE FAUX-FEALTY.
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ScottytheMenace, 17 Mar 2007 @ 10:49pm

If your friend jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge...
Everybody's doing it so let's make it legal.

Yeah. Great foundation on which to build a civil society.
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Jess, 17 Mar 2007 @ 11:22pm

Re: re: education
They get paid what they're worth. As a semi-recent product of our school system myself I can say all I learned in school was the fact that I had to agree with what the teacher said or I didn't get an A. So what in fact did I actually learn? I had to learn everything on my own. Its probably worse. And I made a little over 20,000 last year. So being a teacher doesn't sound like that bad a break to me.
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Steve, 18 Mar 2007 @ 12:18am

Re: 199,999,999?
I suspect there are quite a few of us who actually respect copyright law because we've been "soft" content creators -- writers, software developers, musicians, and so on.

Several years back someone posted one of my small software company's commercial applications on an illegal software swapping bboard -- openly boasting that he couldn't be caught, since he had posted it "anonymously". It took all of twenty minutes to track him down. He was a police officer! (His personal web site had a long tribute to Ronald Reagan.)

I'm all for open source software -- and have participated in writing some. But when an individual or business decides it wants to make $ by selling copyrighted soft content, it is simply wrong for others to take it without permission and post copies of it for others to grab for free.
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Tofu for Thought, 18 Mar 2007 @ 12:43am

Re: If everyone does it, then it's right?
So, bring the drinking age down to 16 because millions of teens drink at that age anyway, rid the highways of speed limits because millions of people exeed them anyway,
Well, yes. Some of us call that 'natural selection'. A fine thing, 'tis.
loosen the rules on plagiarsm since millions of students/adults do it regularly.
'plagiarsm' (sic) is a product of a monotheist and capitalist culture. 3700 of the past 4000 years of humans were unconcerned with it, mostly, since people did not care much about whether their grandchildren would be parasitically living well off of one's own hard work. To each their own, I suppose.
That's right, change the law to match behavior, good insight.
If the laws of a society do not match the society's values, then what good are the laws?
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interested party, 18 Mar 2007 @ 4:42am

Re: stealing content
The problem is that the RIIA is the ONLY one upset and suing people. The Artist's are not getting any of this money from the RIIA.
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Revolutionary, 18 Mar 2007 @ 5:31am

Revolutionaries are heros
Remember the Boston Tea Party? A group of men got tired of the illegal taxing so they crept in and stole the tea, then dumped it in the harbor to destroy it.

At the time it was considered an illegal act. They were viewed as thugs and criminals. But today, our children are taught this story as if they were hero's - champions who took a chance to force change which benefited everyone.

Today's file sharers are tomorrow's hero's. We will look back someday (in a different world) and realize that we forced a change that took the power from a select few and gave it back to the people.
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smotpoker, 18 Mar 2007 @ 5:53am

Re: 199,999,999?
You are one of those Sad cases that just don't get it and never will get it.Part of the primordial rock of morons.
Let's just say not every one signed up to the (corporation bought) copywrite laws.
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cons are disgusting bootlickers, 18 Mar 2007 @ 6:02am

Re: Re:
Ahh a 27% er still crying wolf at Clinton while the ones his party do are far worse and right near close to treason.and all his facts got thrown out the window when this bush admin rigged the elections and raped America.The republican'ts gene pool needs more chlorine in it.
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babarum, 18 Mar 2007 @ 7:21am

Re: 200 million can't be felons?
Would be better if you went instead
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Bill, 18 Mar 2007 @ 7:28am

Shoplifting should be legal too!!!
A good portion of Americans have shoplifted. Why can't we make that legal too? I want free stuff!!!!
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Jon, 18 Mar 2007 @ 8:47am

Re: re #50
"Right based on what? The way democracy is supposed to work is what's "right" or not is based on what most of the citizens want. That is why I hate minorities getting everything they want, but that's another issue."

That isn't true and is nonsense. At one point most of the citizen's in the south wanted slavery, but it was unreasonable (wrong) so it was made illegal. And I could give a hundred more examples that show the same thing. Again, the mob making the rules is in no one's best interest in the long run.

Re: "another issue":
Which "minorities" are you talking about anyway (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1305063.stm). And which "minorities" are getting everything they want? I assume you must be talking about the white upperclass? They are the only ones that fit your description.
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Erv is retarded, 18 Mar 2007 @ 9:00am

Re:
Erv, just because you are a Bush basher, doesn't mean you have to related everything to Bush... This has nothing to do with Bush and you know it... Sure, Bush ain't the brightest bulb in the bunch, but until you run for president and do a better job, shut up... seriously.
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sendeth, 18 Mar 2007 @ 9:41am

gw???wtf???
maybe you should stay on topic......bush??? iraq??? wasn't this about music/copyright laws??? bush is only one man, make up your damn mind, liberals!!! is he an idiot or a mastermind??? surely an idiot couldn't pull of any of the stuff i hear him being blamed for.

"Any man whose errors take ten years to correct is quite a man." ~J. Robert Oppenheimer (speaking about Albert Einstein)

anyway, this article is simply saying that the government is the embodiment of "we the people." if the majority of americans believe something, the government has an obligation to change to reflect the will of the people. if it doesn't, then it no longer seeks to serve the people, but to control them. at that point our democratic republic will die. if that is our path, i for one am willing to fight to stop it.

if you really want to do something, we need term limits in congress. if you disagree with me, then tell me why we have FOSSILS making laws for tech they don't understand. just like how the fcc and the feds want all internet traffic to go through a central location so they can spy if they need to. that's like having every single person go to washington dc every year to get a drivers license renewed. the bottom line is that i would trust most of you to make policy than say.......senator kennady (who murdered a woman, went home to shower, and called police later about his "accident." did i mention that she was pregnant???) we need to get fresh faces in there so that the policies will stop representing the previous era.
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Wolfger, 18 Mar 2007 @ 10:09am

Re:
"The comments here are getting as bad as slashdot."

In communist Russia, the laws change you.
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PT, 18 Mar 2007 @ 12:36pm

Idiot or matermind?
Maybe Bush is an idiot, a mouthpiece to the mastermind we do not see. Its probably not even an individual but a group. Maybe even a movement or philosophy that drives a sub society to action.

But, even if Bush isn't an idiot, he's certainly a very poor public speaker, lier, full of contradiction, and not at all charismatic, a quality needed in any leader, even if its dangerous (Adolf Hitler, anyone?).

But then many others in his administration are the same way. They lie or contradict themselves often enough its just entertainment at this point. Maybe its just the way it is for being a politician. Could explain why we hate politicians so much.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Mar 2007 @ 5:40pm

Re:
Dummycrat.
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mary, 18 Mar 2007 @ 7:40pm

Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
i worked one summer as a fill in WSI in a rural school district. they broke every red cross rule in the book!
the teachers union hated me and i ate lunch in my car.
you can't teach 39 non-swimmers to learn how to swim in a one hour a week lesson!
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Extreme Centrist, 18 Mar 2007 @ 7:46pm

Re: re: education @ Extreme Centrist
Jon-

I see where you are coming from now. Teachers make good money after they pay their dues for a long time. Making entry into teaching easier is something I fully support. I also think teachers should be able to teach while an assistant helps to maintain order. I believe some schools in the 'burbs do that, but I sure don't see it in the inner-city schools, where it is desperately needed.
A friend teaches kindergarten. During a potty break, three kids didn't come out of the bathroom. They were busy beating up a first grader. That happened this school year. I not sure how she does it.
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DL, 18 Mar 2007 @ 8:40pm

Well they can be, but that isn't the issue. The issue is the feasibility of enforcement, which is so impossible as to only hammer the most flagrant abusers of copyright and stop the ability to pirate. Seems to me there are bigger fish to fry.
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Tom, 18 Mar 2007 @ 11:01pm

free world
The only way I see this piracy issue being resolved is if we lived in a world where everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, was free. A world without currency would allow free movement of goods and services without any accountability. You wouldn't have to pay the artists for their music, because they wouldn't have to pay the bills for their mansions. You wouldn't need money for groceries because nobody gets paid to pick the apples or butcher the pig or design the flashy cereal box. There was a time when we lived in such a society, like 3 million years ago when we were all monkies... but of course we didn't have cars and nukes and MP3 players back then. The free world theory is at once too simple and too complex for modern man. Oh, well I know this all sounds outlandish, but that's the point: there is no solution to the piracy issue until you force yourself to think irrationally.
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CS, 18 Mar 2007 @ 11:53pm

basic criminal justice teaches you that a crime is only a crime if the public reacts to it. this kind of sharing became a crime when the general public reacted to it negatively (including record industries), but now, even the artists distribute freely via myspace etc- the reaction is going away...time for the law to change.
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C. J., 19 Mar 2007 @ 12:41am

A couple questions:

What do American schools have to do with the MPAA or the RIAA? Save your babbling for a related thread.

Furthermore, I seriously doubt that the RIAA or the MPAA have the manpower to convict the amount of people who are continiung to pirate music, software, and movies everyday (granted, the RIAA and the MPAA have nothing to do with pirated software.. nevertheless, the point still stands). The statement, "200 milllion americans cant be convicts, however, is completely true. As much as many of you would like to believe that we are living in a police state, it isnt happening. Your meager suggestions are vividly thin. If the majority of America were to be imprisoned, who then, would pay for said prisons?

This is a simple transgression. Millions of people are taking items which companies are selling, for free - without consent. A personal theory of mine is that the RIAA and MPAA make the few moves they do make so impacting that everyone hears about them. So that people freely downloading music will be looking over their shoulder, wandering, am "I" next? Ill say it again: These companies cannot possibly punish everyone breaking these laws.

When you download music, you are taking a risk. So stop complaining. Oh and... what is going on? Why does everything have to return to a G.W. Slamfest? Your blanketing statements are sophmoric, and philistine. The man isnt the shiniest rock in the box, but for christ sakes.. the man cant catch a break.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Mar 2007 @ 1:45am

Re: Re: re #50
At one point most of the citizen's in the south wanted slavery, but it was unreasonable (wrong) so it was made illegal. And I could give a hundred more examples that show the same thing. Again, the mob making the rules is in no one's best interest in the long run.
In case you missed it in history class, slavery in the U.S. resulted in something called a "civil war" which was a spectacular example of a failure of democracy.
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Isaac B. Ceron, 19 Mar 2007 @ 1:48am

Re:
Sharing content, in other words STEALING content that people have put lots of time and money into creating?/blockquote> Well, it isn't stealing, NO MATTER HOW MUCH SHOUTING YOU DO.
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Hugh K. Benson, 19 Mar 2007 @ 2:13am

Re:
Furthermore, I seriously doubt that the RIAA or the MPAA have the manpower to convict the amount of people who are continiung to pirate music, software, and movies everyday...
This may come as shock to you, but your employers (you are an obvious **AA shill) don't have the authority to prosecute criminal cases, much less the the power to actually convict. Those powers are held by public prosecuting attorneys and courts, respectively.

200 milllion americans cant be convicts, however, is completely true. As much as many of you would like to believe that we are living in a police state, it isnt happening.
Yeah, you'd like for people to believe that, wouldn't you? Luckily, not everyone is as stupid as you'd like for them to be.

If the majority of America were to be imprisoned, who then, would pay for said prisons?
Who says they'd have to be in a physical prison? By the way, most people forget that the constitutional amendment that abolished slavery exempted "prisoners", so slavery is still perfectly legal in U.S. prisons.

When you download music, you are taking a risk.
Guess I better stay away from iTunes then. You guys are really upset that Apple won't let you set the prices, aren't you?

Why does everything have to return to a G.W. Slamfest? Your blanketing statements are sophmoric, and philistine. The man isnt the shiniest rock in the box, but for christ sakes.. the man cant catch a break.
The man is a regular genius, compared to you.
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Trouble Maker, 19 Mar 2007 @ 5:10am

two cents worth
Yes, they can all be Felons. Just because they accept it as "normal" does not make it correct (I did not say right).

If you are a thief you are a thief.

It is however a law that can not be enforced, therefor a bad law. But only because our population is comprised of morally broken people. And they are the same "mob" that would object to the enforcement of the very laws that protect them, on the grounds that they are the law breakers.

You better be willing to kill me to steal from me, because I am willing to kill you and or to die as I protect myself and property.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Mar 2007 @ 5:51am

Re: re: education
For what it is worth...

www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_nypost_teacher_pay_myth.htm

- - - -

According to the U.S. Department of Labor, the average public elementary school teacher in the United States earns about $30.75 an hour. The average hourly pay of other public-service employees - such as firefighters ($17.91) or police officers ($22.64) - pales in comparison.

Indeed, teachers' hourly rate exceeds even those in professions that require far more training and expertise. Compare the schoolteacher's $30.75 to the average biologist's $28.07 an hour - or the mechanical engineer's $29.76 or the chemist's $30.68.

Whose hourly pay is competitive with that of teachers? Computer scientists ($32.86), dentists ($35.51) and even nuclear engineers ($36.16).

Note, too, that these hourly figures exclude benefits, such as health coverage and retirement accounts, which are typically more generous for government employees, such as teachers, than for private-sector workers.

New York City's teachers are especially well paid. According to the state's school district profile, the median teacher in the city earns $53,017 a year. Unfortunately, information on the number of hours worked by the average teacher in the City is not readily available. But, if we make the generous assumption that the average teacher in New York works the maximum 6.6 hours a day allowed by the union contract for the full 181 school days, that works out to $44.38 an hour.

- - - - -
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FH Harris, 19 Mar 2007 @ 6:34am

Re: List
And your point? As long as they are bad we are good?????

Any one of those that listed others are irrelevant...

What was Nixons greates hit list?
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Overcast, 19 Mar 2007 @ 6:43am

Not to bring politics into it, but man, right now would be a great time to be a 3rd party independent...

There's a crazy force right under the surface that could steal from both sides... The Dems seem too Left, dislike business. Repubs seem too much in a quandry, trying to figure out their head from their tail.

Perfect time for a good 3rd party to come into the picture, eh?

I couldn't agree more my friend... it's amazing how many people buy into all this crap nowadays.
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jon, 19 Mar 2007 @ 8:49am

Re: Re: Re: re #50 @ anon coward
In case you missed it in history class, slavery in the U.S. resulted in something called a "civil war" which was a spectacular example of a failure of democracy.
That is an interesting interpretation. I doubt the 4 million slaves that were living in the US back then would call it a failure of democracy. Perhaps it would be more accurate to call slavery a "spectacular example of a failure of democracy." After all, they were people and they didn't get a say. In many of the deep southern states there were nearly as many slaves as free people (and sometimes there was even more slaves than white people). But here is my real question. What in the heck is your point? It seems to be you are saying that those in power must fight things out and that those who are not must be satisfied standing on the side hoping that things turn out nicely. Are you saying that mob should rule? If so it goes against your point above in many cases. Are you saying the mob shouldn't rule? In which case you agree with me.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Mar 2007 @ 9:02am

Re: Re: Re: Education in America Sucks!!!
Gosh, "Mike's a DUMBASS"... I, for one, would rather know how to speak one language correctly than look like a dumbass in several...
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DeTOX, 19 Mar 2007 @ 9:34am

Internet & Free stuff
I pay for internet, so anything and everything that I can access if paid for in my internet payment. Hmm my company I buy it from say "unlimited internet" and that is just how I use it.
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C. J., 19 Mar 2007 @ 9:35am

Hugh,

Thanks for the hollow insults -- I sure hope it gave you a good chuckle.

For starters though, it's absurd if you thouhgt i believed that the RIAA/MPAA was some sort of sentient entity that was above the law and could convct people from their own offices. My mistake though, I imagined people reading this would have general knowledge on how things worked here in America. My apologies, i'll leave my words more concise next time.

As far as the police state goes, you didnt offer up anything of value. Put out the dubie, and once the smoke clears maybe you'll see that we arent in some "metaphorical prison man."

iTunes is a great service, albeit, slightly overpriced. They are heading in the right direction, and I applaud them for that. Yet, who are the "guys" you refer to? Once again, your point is diminished by your attempt to belittle me. Stop chasing the straw-man, and deal with the real arguement.

Lastly, you didnt answer my question about G.W. And gauging from your response, you should be on my side -- as you lightly sprinkle praises on his shoulders; what gives?
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Hugh K. Benson, 19 Mar 2007 @ 12:37pm

Re:
For starters though, it's absurd if you thouhgt i believed that the RIAA/MPAA was some sort of sentient entity that was above the law and could convct people from their own offices.
Well, that is kind of what you wrote. But if you say that people shouldn't pay any attention to what you actually write, then I'll agree with that anyway.

My mistake though, I imagined people reading this would have general knowledge on how things worked here in America.
Many do. You do not appear to be one of them though.

My apologies, i'll leave my words more concise next time.
More "true" might be better.

As far as the police state goes, you didnt offer up anything of value.
No value to you anyway.

Put out the dubie, and once the smoke clears maybe you'll see that we arent in some "metaphorical prison man."
Do you really believe that all felons are in prison? You've never heard of probation, parole or completion of sentence? And you claim to "have general knowledge on how things worked here in America"? Talk about smoking something. Sheesh.

iTunes is a great service, albeit, slightly overpriced. They are heading in the right direction, and I applaud them for that. Yet, who are the "guys" you refer to? Once again, your point is diminished by your attempt to belittle me. Stop chasing the straw-man, and deal with the real arguement.
Well, you're the one who wrote that "When you download music, you are taking a risk." That would make using iTunes risky. Is that what makes it so great? Or did you not really mean what you wrote, once again?

Lastly, you didnt answer my question about G.W.
Nope, didn't care to. Can't put anything past you, can we?

And gauging from your response, you should be on my side -- as you lightly sprinkle praises on his shoulders; what gives?
Way over, no need for you to duck.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Mar 2007 @ 1:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: re #50 @ anon coward
Wars are the result of the failure of political processes, so the US civil war was a failure of the US political process, i.e. democracy. And I bet the "4 million slaves that were living in the US back then" certainly didn't consider that "democracy" had been working so great for them up until them. In fact, they probably _did_ consider it a failure. Democracy _is_ mob rule. To say that you support democracy but oppose mob rule is contradictory. That is my point.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Mar 2007 @ 1:25pm

Re: two cents worth
So, you want to kill copyright infringers? Interesting. Does this just apply to other people or would you be willing to apply the same principle to yourself? I mean, if you were found to have violated some copyright, patent or trademark would you be willing to kill yourself?
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Jimmy the Bitch, 20 Mar 2007 @ 2:21pm

Give me a break
As long as people want to be paid for their "intellectual property", they will need a copyright system to govern it. Do you still think you own stuff? Good luck with that. This article is hardly even necessary.
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jon, 18 Jan 2008 @ 8:07pm

You are all missing the question
God Gave us our lives, and God will take them.
America was once free but courption and greed has taken over police, congress, and yes the president and his party.
Everyone Has to go through a Check point in order to leave this contry "Have you got papers" the gustope asked?
Have you got visa? have you the necessary papers to leave this country.
I thought The Constitution made it Very clear, These men were not as stupid as we and our politions are!
We are free, and a courpt Government can not make descions based on greed and for their personal agenda.
Look up the $20 billion dollar (for arms)deal with Shir lanka
We are the youngest New Country on planet Earth, Don't be afraid if we make mistakes on the government level. Qusetion their judgement and take action.

Remember Let Freedom ring, God bless all.
Ron paul for President!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah
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