How Would You Write A Computer Lemon Law?

from the not-so-easy dept

Fri, May 25th 2007 8:18am — Mike Masnick

Ed Foster has written up a short blurb for Gripeline discussing how complicated it would be to write a "lemon law" for computers, but suggesting that one is still needed. As he notes, it's not as easy as just replacing the word "automobile" with "computer" in existing car lemon laws. After all, there are many different reasons why a computer would stop working -- and not all of it has to do with the hardware. However, putting a software exception in place would then just make computer manufacturers more likely to quickly blame software problems for any issues. Of course, a few years back some were suggesting that we needed lemon laws for software as well, so maybe the answer is to write an inclusive lemon law. To be honest, however, it's not entirely clear that such laws really are necessary. While my own personal experience suggests that many computer makers are quite resistant to admitting they sold you a lemon (my laptop with 6 failed hard drives in 18 months was a fun one to deal with), there are enough services and outlets for people to now make their problems very, very public -- and that's made some computer makers much more responsive. So, perhaps it's as problem that works itself out, as computer makers recognize that there is a huge cost in public relations damage to not responding to complaints.

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29 Comments

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Nombre, 25 May 2007 @ 8:34am

I wouldn't
You'd have too many yahoos trying to sue Microsoft under the law because they'd think it was a funny and original joke.
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- Casper, 25 May 2007 @ 8:49am
  
  Re: I wouldn't
  I don't know, they may have good reason for suing MS in some cases. A lot of the computers we order have to be wiped and reinstalled from the ground up to get everything working and detecting like it should. In fact, one of my laptops (I won't mention the brand) came brand new with the drivers all wrong from the manufacturer. My processor was detecting at less then 1/3 speed it should and my through put was nil. I had to manually reload all the drivers twice to get XP to use it correctly and no one could decide who was to blame.
  
  How do you assign blame? Is it the fault of the people who wrote the software, the people who installed it, the people who wrote the drivers, or the people who made the hardware?
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  - jLl, 25 May 2007 @ 9:28am
    
    Re: Re: I wouldn't
    > In fact, one of my laptops (I won't mention the brand) came brand new with the drivers all wrong from the manufacturer.
    
    You already assigned the blame; and, properly. The manufacturer's (i.e., "brand") job is to give you a finished system, with the proper drivers, and they failed at it.
    
    Now, do you sue them for giving you the wrong software? I say "No"...but, that's your own dilemna to deal with. Just ask them to send you a new "Drivers" disk.
    
    > I don't know, they may have good reason for suing MS in some cases.
    
    MS's liability doesn't include any drivers beyond the few generics that come with Windows. They don't have any control over which other drivers you ultimately end up with, so blaming them is simply misguided.
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ehrichweiss, 25 May 2007 @ 8:45am

software is to blame many times..
I'm currently in possession of a laptop that a lady claimed was powering down from time to time after she dropped it. I've been testing it for about 5 months now(she hasn't called to ask for it back) and the only problem seems to have been a bad driver or the like because I'm now using my hard drive with it(correct drivers installed) and it's not given me the least bit of problem. She also was incredibly rough with the thing so I imagine that if it has a shock sensor, she triggered it.

Or there's MY laptop where upon installing SP2 it would randomly shut down. This happened less than 2 hours after I installed a 1Gb SODIMM module so for about 4 days I blamed the module until I tested it and then switched back to the old one to get the same effects. A simple search turned up that a simple registry entry was at fault over the ACPI settings; I added it and it's worked fine ever since.

Or my friend who sold a laptop to a lady who then tried to blame him because the drivers for her wifi card weren't compatible with that version of Windows and that particular model laptop. The lesson she apparently learned was "the wifi card is much cheaper and easier to replace".
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dribller, 25 May 2007 @ 8:47am

!!!!
that would be a dumb ideea!
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GoblinJuice, 25 May 2007 @ 8:59am

o_O
Hey, I've got an idea!

Let's pass a law to make it illegal to be poor. Then, there won't be any more poor people!
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- Mike4, 25 May 2007 @ 11:11am
  
  Re: o_O
  Not that there's actually a law, but they already have something like that in place. When your bank account is too low at any point during a certain month, they charge you a fee. If that fee happens to bring your account down to a negative number, you then get charged another fee. What a great country.
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- Steve, 25 May 2007 @ 12:43pm
  
  Re: o_O
  That's a GREAT idea, except the poor can't afford to pay the fines... What we should REALLY do is make a law to make it illegal to be RICH, then they can afford to pay the poor!..... uhh.. oh, wait a minute, that's kinda what we have now! ;-)
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  - Anonymous Coward, 25 May 2007 @ 1:04pm
    
    Re: Re: o_O
    The law, in its magnificent equality, forbids rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges and begging for bread in the streets.
    - Anatole France
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John, 25 May 2007 @ 9:02am

All we need are more laws and lawyers in this country. Really it's too much.
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- Anonymous Coward, 25 May 2007 @ 1:06pm
  
  Re:
  All we need are more laws and lawyers in this country. Really it's too much.
  Hah, you can never have too many lawyers. In fact, the more you have, the more you need.
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  - Fred Flint, 26 May 2007 @ 5:30am
    
    Re: Re: Lawyers
    All we need are more laws and lawyers in this country. Really it's too much.
    
    Hah, you can never have too many lawyers. In fact, the more you have, the more you need.
    
    Spoken like a true lawyer, laughing (at us) all the way to the bank.
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Brian, 25 May 2007 @ 9:26am

"Lemon" clauses already exist
I manage large-scale deployments (2000-3000+ PC's, 1000+ printers, etc), and all of this eqpt is under 2-4 year lease. "Lemon" clauses are already in the contracts clearly defining processes for how to handle a piece that constantly break down with no clear cause. They even use the word "lemon".

When I present scenarios, vendors like to throw probabilities: "what you suggest is a one in a thousand likelihood", etc. But in an environment with 5000 units, you'll see 5???
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Curtis, 25 May 2007 @ 10:19am

Lemon Law unnecessary
A computer is much less expensive than an automobile. So this type of law is unnecessary. Buy from computer companies who will back thier machine with good customer support/service. Do your reseach on the company as well as the machine. If you do your part as a good consumer. The companies who fall behind on thier reputation will soon fade into the abyss.
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- kilroy, 25 May 2007 @ 10:40am
  
  Re: Lemon Law unnecessary
  But is it really? I mean once the computer is sold and loaded and part of someone's business the inherent cost of that piece of hardware or software filing can be much higher than the original outlay. ISPs and enterprise applications are shining examples of how many people might just be depending on that technology being reliable.
  
  I remember an incident, or two, not long ago where a software update sidelined a Canadian bank's network, and another for a large personal communications device provider. Who can say what the ultimate cost of either of those two incidents actually was?
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  - Curtis, 27 May 2007 @ 6:09am
    
    Re: Re: Lemon Law unnecessary
    I understand what your saying, I'm not saying that the computer companies should be blameless. In such case the company that was harmed should be able to file a lawsuit to recover losses. But that in no way could be covered by a "Lemon Law" since every case is different.
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Jeff, 25 May 2007 @ 10:48am

Computer lemon law website
I had a problem with my computer last year and these guys were able to help me using the lemon law or some kind of warranty act. Got me a replacement computer as the manufacturer didn't live up to the warranty. Might be worthwhile to check out - www.computerlemonlaw.com.
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- Curtis, 27 May 2007 @ 6:10am
  
  Re: Computer lemon law website
  Thanks for the info. Computer companies should live upto thier warranties.
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Mike4, 25 May 2007 @ 11:15am

I think everyone's missing the point
If I'm not mistaken, the point of a lemon law for cars is for when someone has an issue with their car that the dealership is unable to fix after a number of attempts. All of these computer examples sound like things that can be fixed the first time, except for the example in the story (my laptop with 6 failed hard drives in 18 months).
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- Anonymous Coward, 25 May 2007 @ 1:15pm
  
  Re: I think everyone's missing the point
  All of these computer examples sound like things that can be fixed the first time
  How does "a piece that constantly breaks down with no clear cause" sound like something "that can be fixed the first time"?
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Dave, 25 May 2007 @ 12:55pm

Simple Test
How about:

LEMON ==0;
IF (OS = Windoze)
THEN LEMON ==1
ELSE;
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Not My Real Name, 25 May 2007 @ 1:28pm

Lemons in the Market
To be honest, however, it's not entirely clear that such laws really are necessary.
So Mike, would you support the repeal of all lemon laws in favor of letting the market take care of lemon problems?
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- Mischa, 25 May 2007 @ 1:58pm
  
  Re: Lemons in the Market
  Is that sarcasam? (It's so hard to tell with text.) Mike is saying lemon laws for computers are not necessary. Not that all lemon laws are unnecessary.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 25 May 2007 @ 3:29pm
    
    Re: Re: Lemons in the Market
    Is that sarcasam? (It's so hard to tell with text.) Mike is saying lemon laws for computers are not necessary. Not that all lemon laws are unnecessary.
    Wouldn't the same principle apply to other things?
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    - Mischa, 25 May 2007 @ 5:27pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: Lemons in the Market
      Well, that would depend. Mike doesn't exactly say why he thinks they would be unnecessary. Autos and computers are different in both price and the software component. It seems reasonable to me that there could be a reason lemon laws are not needed for a pc. Not that I can think of one at the moment.
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      - Anonymous Coward, 25 May 2007 @ 5:47pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Lemons in the Market
        Well, that would depend. Mike doesn't exactly say why he thinks they would be unnecessary.
        While he didn't say it very precisely, he did say "...there are enough services and outlets for people to now make their problems very, very public..." which might sound like he's arguing that lemon laws are not needed due to the rise of "outlets" for people to speak. I would guess those outlets might primarily consists of blogs. So would the argument be that we don't need lemon laws if we have blogs?
        
        Autos and computers are different in both price...
        Well, that all depends on the auto and the computer. Some computers cost much much more than some autos. But so what?
        
        and the software component.
        Virtually all new automobiles are completely dependent on software running on their on-board computers. Not much of a difference there either.
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Clueby4, 25 May 2007 @ 2:19pm

Tech Wild West
I get the feeling of a wild west atmosphere. EULAs, ToSs, No Returns, obtuse and invasive copy protection, spyware, malware, etc

Yea, perish the thought software and hardware manufactures would be forced to stand behind there product.

I would love to see some type of product liability placed on software companies, at the very least software/hardware should be TAX FREE, since the government does, effectively nothing to really help the public at large in that areas.
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Flint stones, 26 May 2007 @ 10:42am

Let's not get ahead of ourselves...
Where's the lemon law for lemon lawyers?

Lawyers are like HIV; you're only "happy" with them when the eventualities could be worse.
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Carter, 29 Jul 2009 @ 7:17pm

How long...
Yea, yea, yea...I hear ya about no lemon law, but when you have a laptop that you have been working with techs from India (that you can't understand), techs in your home and still problems exist after 19 months of try this, try that; what's next?

If you know something I don't, please inform me.
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