Microsoft Brings Politics Into Opening Of New Development Center
from the going-north dept
Microsoft has announced plans to open up a new software development center in Vancouver, just 150 miles from its headquarters in Redmond. The company has plenty of international locations, so the fact that the new site is in Canada isn't particularly noteworthy. But the company is trying to attach a political significance to the move, as it claims it's a reaction to a lack of skilled immigrant workers in the US, which is the result of limited visas. It's hard to know how legitimate this is. There's no doubt that Microsoft would like to see looser immigration laws, with respect to skilled workers, but it's easy to see the company taking this opportunity to make a political point, regardless of its actual motivations for opening up the location. Either way, those in favor of greater restrictions should ask themselves if they prefer to see companies going abroad for workers, rather than having workers come here.
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All In Favor Of Wage Busting, Raise Their Hand
obigatory engineer shortage story.
It's akin to the jobs no US citizen will
do (for so little money) therefore we Need
the illegals.
I guess in a technology driven society
it is inevitable that engineering
shirts slowly fade from white to blue.
That loud band you jsut heard wasn't
fireworks, it was your standard of living
crashing down. So we can compete in the
global economy on an even footing.
Isn't that special?
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Canadians have the TN
As part of NAFTA, Canadian have what's called the TN status which enables college-educated Canadian (and Mexican too for that matter) in certain professions to work in the USA. It's a very easy process that takes about 15min at the border. I know, that's what I'm currently doing.
Of course it's a lot more restrictive (1 year period, no intent of becoming a permanent resident, etc.) than an H1-B but still, it's easy for Canadian to come work in the states.
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Re: Canadians have the TN
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Canada the solution?
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M$ Moving
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Re: M$ Moving
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Re: Re: M$ Moving
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My friend in Vancouver lost her roommate to an employer that refused to renew her work visa (so it was back to Finland for her!).
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Re:
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Microsoft money
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Microsoft is Anti-American
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Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
Just stop whining about the game!
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Re: Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
All I am saying is if they would prefer foreign worker to American workers than take your stinking company there and stop pretending to be an American company. Another American company will fill Microsoft's spot in a second. Because we are the BEST. Believe me I have seen tons and tons of code written by these supposed highly skilled foreign works...it's nothing but spaghetti code that follows no standards at all.
If you have to fix it or change it, you may as well rewrite it because you will never be able to read it. It's that bad. At least American programmers are taught how to code using standards and implement those standards in their code. The issue of a lack of talent is just smoke and mirrors for the real issue. Microsoft and others just want cheap labor. Why pay an American programmer $40,000 a year when you can get a foreign worker for $15,000. The foreign workers are happy as clams living 4 or 5 people in a one bedroom apartment. American's have families to feed and homes to pay for.
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Re: Re: Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
Microsoft dont pay $15000 to anybody...you are soo foolish...Microsoft paying 15000....what a joke...Microsoft recruits fresh foreign students from my university with packages of 75000+....They dont hire cheap labor....you are lazy fat asses who want money without working enough...crapy david
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
Not every foreign student is getting paid like a senior programmer.
They do hire cheap foreign labor that's why they hire people like you and not Americans. Foreigners will come here, for very little money, to escape from whatever crappy country they are living in, because the USA is the greatest country in the history of mankind and it always will be. Why else would foreigners be trying to flock here from every corner of the world?
The reason why America is the greatest country in the world is easy. Americans are the hardest working, most skilled labor force in the world, otherwise, we would not be the greatest power in the world. We would be like your silly little country, whatever it is.
Two, if your writing skills are any indication of your programming skills, you have proven my point.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
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Re: Re: Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
Remember that in technology, the earth is flat. There are brilliant people all over the world and they will do their best to take the cost advantage. Play the ball. Don't play a blame game.
Microsoft is trying to maximize it's worth to it's share holders and they should do that whatever it takes legally. If the company takes it's development center elsewhere to maximize profit and they are successful in doing that, they are absolutely right doing that. There is no reason to whine like a looser showing nationalism. America is what it is today because of free market capitalism. There are ups and downs of the policy but that is the reality.
Now let us grow up and write some good software in America to prove that we can do it better here cost-effectively :)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
So, if they aren't happy here, they should take their company elsewhere.
Americans will fill the niche of Microsoft in a hear beat, because we are the most talented and innovative country in the world. That's why we are the greatest power in the world. That's why we have the greatest economy in the world. That's why everyone wants to be here. Simple isn't it?
We have the most innovative labor force on earth. This is not disputable, it's a fact. Why else would all the foreign workers want to come here? So they can be part of mediocrity...I think not, they can do that in their current country. They come here to be great. That's why they come to OUR schools and want to work for OUR companies. They know where the best is. If Microsoft doesn't think so, please, let them go somewhere else. That's my point.
I bet after five years they'd be wishing they never left, and want back in. Or they would start hiring Americans to come work for them in whatever country they went to. As the old saying goes: "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
America is great because it embraces skilled individuals. Although I understand where you are coming from, you should accept the fact that America is made up of individuals from diverse origins, and that closing borders would kick America back to prehistory. Notice I am talking about cheap labor. I am talking about very talented foreign workers.
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Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
So I ask again: Who's Anti-American?
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Re: Microsoft is Anti-American
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Canada is almost as restrictive as the US (it was considerably more restrictive before 9/11) on foreign workers. Also, our population, even with our so-called loose imigration, is one-tenth of the US and most Canadians wont relocate to another city for just a job like Americans do. I guess that is what you get when everyone has health and social services no matter your job status. It is stange that MS would do this, I really think they would be better off in Michigan than Canada, especially with the universities and labor pool there. Or California, or Massachusettes, or just about anywhere in the States. Strange, eh?
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Re:
The number of skilled US workers that would be willing to work at a (say) Michigan campus rather than Redmond or Mt. View, is probably exceedingly small, so it would hardly be worth it.
On the foreign front, it is much harder to bring in a guy from India than a guy from Florida, there are barriers for entry into the US workforce, so by expanding out of the US borders, it becomes much easier to hire those skilled workers. These people aren't being hired as tech support or IT either (which are outsourced instead), but as full development and testing engineers.
Though, I do have no doubt that a Canadian campus offers little advantage in this area, I think that the political message tied to this is soley for the messages sake (Bill G. hasn't been quiet about his support for less control on visas because of a lack of skilled workers in the US).
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The MS move and H1-B
I'm sure no one in the USA could have done the same job. Oh wait why would you want to work for 15k a year, and live 5 people to a two bedroom townhouse.
Skilled labor is one thing, it's easy to put parts a,b and c in slots d, e and f. Quit another to code for an in house CRM data Base.
Right now to much of our labor force is nuts and bolts and not enough bits and bytes. Regardless we still have enough people that can do the nations IT jobs, we just have to pay them more than 15K.
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Anyways, is it really that surprising that Microsoft would do such a thing? It's not like automotive plants in Canada are generally the most efficient ones in North America, yet get shut down first because the Big Three find it magically advantageous to keep less efficient American plants open instead. Either the politicians are going to kowtow and start offering Microsoft the same protectionist benefits to keep jobs in the States, or they're going to have a brand new studio in Canada where they can take advantage of the new exchange rate and start actively competing with Google's and Electronic Arts' Canadian studios (Montreal, Toronto, Waterloo for Google, Montreal, Burnaby, Vancouver for EA) for skilled Canadian developers.
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Well Joe, are those the only 2 choices you can envision - that we're destined to be screwed one way or another?
Surely the American worker has more balls than that! At least they used to!
Get to work on the politicians. Use your unions - if they don't help, vote the officers (or the union) out and get new ones. Use the web - call Michael Moore - do something!
Get mad for g-ds sake!
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Worker shortage = true
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Re: Worker shortage = true
Valor wrote:
Or maybe people just don't want to work for Microsoft any more?
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I've personally seen layoffs of americans in order to keep not better qualified foreign workers. I've personally seen how wages go down year after year. Now is even worst they explicitly cut salaries for contractors by 10%.
Also forced contractors to switch from well paying American companies to really bad paying Indian companies. Reducing their salaries by more than 20%.
I personaly even did an experiment applying to 500 jobs in microsoft.com/careers as an American I did not getting a single response.
The list goes ON and ON, this is just ridiculous...
This is like paying for cheap labor to work at your own house when there is plenty of people living in it that is more than capable of doing the job. People that with their money can contribute to that same house.
They always go for the crappy line of "getting the best talent of the world" when most of the jobs are for entry or mid lavel and at the same time laying off people with 10 years in the company.
Again I have names and contact information to confirm this information.
Don't be mistaken Microsoft is a company that depends of the american people by using their products through american companies and the US Goverment itself which is funded by every single US Citizen.
I hope the goverment enforce harder legal restriction which enforce the rule of having American not been replaced by "cheap labor".
I really don't understand the long haul strategy.
Because on a macro economy you need to have people working in order to have them spend money in your products and services.
If you replace the same people that spend the money with CHEAP labor that DON'T spend money in your products and services the entire economic cycle colapses. In other words the country colapses.
This is an issue of National Security, when a company corrupts the economic cycle of this country affecting it's own people, businesses and families there should strong enforcement by the goverment of the United State to don't let this corruption happend. Make the people responsable accountable from their illegal actions and be legally punished as this is a Real THREAT to the American People and their way of life.
Because this country is made By The People and For the People of the United States of America and Needs to be protected.
This Posts Here Are Examples of the Imperative Need from the American People that has to be PROTECTED.
Regards,
Nelson
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