Allofmp3.com Owners Could Face Jailtime For Demonstrating Better Business Model To RIAA
from the how-dare-they! dept
The saga of Allofmp3 is quite well known at this point. The company that was apparently following the laws of Russia for licensing music made a name for itself selling DRM-free music at very reasonable points. Rather than recognizing that this was proof of a very viable business model for the recording industry, the recording industry turned to US gov't officials to pressure Russia into shutting down the site by threatening to block Russia's entrance into the WTO. Eventually, Russia caved. And, while the site was eventually shut down, an almost identical site quickly popped up in its place. That, of course, can't be good for Russian politicians looking to get into the WTO, so now they're threatening jailtime for Allofmp3's owner. If you step back and look at the big picture, a struggling U.S. industry has had its gov't pressure a foreign gov't to throw a foreign entrepreneur in jail for demonstrating a better business model to them. This is the world we live in.
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RE: Known Coward
Win.
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.....
This is only the beginning folks.
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Call to arms
There has to be something we can do to show our displeasure with the industry. Music should not be made subject to the perversion the RIAA has vomited all over it.
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Re: RE: Known Coward
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It's about control
And paid their dues to ROMS.
That the RIAA doesn't have agreements with ROMS regarding royalties, should NOT be AOMP3s problem.
But clearly the labels (Sony, Warner et al) made it AOMP3s problem.
You see the same issue with internet radio. The labels can't control what the internet radio stations play, so they have to be put under, with outrageous royalty fees.
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Re: It's about control
Anybody notice the pattern?
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Re: .....
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Re: Re: It's about control
I wish there was a country that didn't give a shit about USA and had normal laws. Cause all I see is USA whores (let's take Sweden: in 2006, ThePirateBay.org went down for three days because MPAA told Sweden's police to commit a raid although Sweden's laws allowed ThePirateBay to publish torrents.)
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Sounds good to me.
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Fuck RIAA
fuck the RIAA and the WTO!
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Oh, well that's just life rather than oppose them I'd rather figure out just what I can do to join them.
After all better be the shit ripping everyone else off than the fool being ripped off.
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Re: Re: It's about control
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C.R.E.A.M.
Any country that does offer a home to allof3pm.com or any site like it will just become the victim of pressure from the US government.
Antigua comes to mind. But if they did offer a home to torrent sites then of course Antigua will somehow become a threat to national security, a haven for terrorists, violators of American IP laws, and just for good measure something about child porn.
I just wish other countries would get together and start calling the US government on all the nonsense it commits in an effort to please its corporate sponsors.
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This is BULLSHIT.... IT'S TIME TO TAKE ACTION!
I just love how the a$$holes at the RIAA whine and moan about laws being broken (even though AllofMP3 WAS NOT BREAKING ANY LAWS) and will go as far as THREATENING OTHER COUNTRIES... when they themselves have broken, and continue to break, MANY LAWS. What about all the artists they are RIPPING OFF AND STEALING FROM? WHY is the RIAA allowed to be the corportate CRIMINAL they are and WHY is our damn government bending over backwards for these asses?!?!
This IS the beginning of the END...of the world as we know it. It's a sad, sad day for America and beyond.
FUCK THE RIAA!!! FUCK YOU CHEATING, HYPOCRITICAL GREEDY BASTARDS TO HELL! YOU WILL *ALL* BURN IN HELL!!!!
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related?
What the hell has happened to this country? Freedom and rights my ass.... maybe a long time ago thats what this country stood for, but not so much any more :-(. Guess only US businesses rights are protected anymore...
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Re: RE: Known Coward
it's track 5 on this album which you can download for free (creative commons for the win!!)
seriously, it's completely free.
they're not my favorite nerdcore act, but their hearts are in the right place.
so fuck the RIAA twice: 1) support an independent artist that release under the creative commons with no DRM, and 2) spread the message and speak out against the MAFIAA by calling attention to this song.
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Allofmp3
Sorry Mike Masnick, you were under-informed therefore your position on the subject needs rethinking.
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X-mas
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ALL HAIL THE RIAA!!!
Racketeers In Action Always
lol
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This isn't the whole truth
For example, it's well known by King Crimson fans that much of their music isn't available on ITunes and other MP3 sites because the band (which managed at great cost to get back a lot of their copyrights from their early record labels) wanted to have more control how their music was sold. Usually a band is stuck with whatever crappy deal their label made with them regarding digital distribution, but this band wanted to make a better deal, which is completely their right. As for AllofMP3.com, it's one thing to take a CD and rip it and share it with others without permission. It's another to rip someone else's work without their permission and SELL IT. And this is what AllofMP3.com was doing in some cases.
From Robert Fripp's diary discussing an article about the Russian site:
"'We can't see any legal or moral objection to using the site,' Charles Wright writes in the Sydney Morning Herald. 'We're using the material for private use, there is no restriction in this country on the parallel importing of recorded music and none of the artists seem to have been deprived of their rights. While we suspect the recorded music industry would like to earn more from their music, we're in no position to judge the arrangements they might have made with Russia.'
Well, as regards King Crimson, I am in a position to judge the arrangements they might have made in Russian: there is no arrangement. Legal or moral objection? This is theft.
There is a significant & qualitative distinction between fan file-swapping & piracy: the difference is in aim. The site above undermines itself by being based on a lie: 'this material is licensed.' From this follows a remorseless & inevitable series of repercussions, many of which are not immediately obvious."
http://dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?entry=367
So it seems pretty clear that AllofMP3.com was involved in some very shady business practices. They continued to sell music that they didn't have any rights to at all. Companies like this SHOULD be shut down.
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Re: X-mas
Although it scares shit out of me that there were thoughts of passing a law with which encrypted traffic would become illegal in USA... I think it was in 2001 that MPAA wanted this law to be passed so they could blame you for "hiding stuff from your ISP". Thanks bits of sanity that are left, the law was never passed...
Anyway, thanks :)
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Re: Re: X-mas
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Re: Sounds good to me.
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Re: This isn't the whole truth
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Re: Allofmp3
Allofmp3 paid the Russian Organization for Multimedia and Digital Systems, just like all Russian radio stations.
the only person (pretending to be) under-(or rather conveniently quite selectively)informed is you.
You're not fooling anyone: AllOfMP3 operated legally in Russia. Whether or not you or the MAFIAA agree with that is not relevant, AllOfMP3 did not break Russian law
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Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
As far as I can tell, if you take something that isn't yours without any sort of agreement and then selling it without giving any royalties or any other form of payment to the owner, that's called stealing. Copyright infringement has nothing to do with it.
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Oh no we are losing TO THE COURTS
Its a sad world we live in where a multinational is able to influence world laws to the point where it can destroy its competitors and scaremonger many people into handing over their hard earned money so that some chief executive may enjoy a 50% pay rise, a $1bn bonus and a new private jet.
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Comparison?
Sort of like an eBay auction where you spend $8 shipping on a $1 item...
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Re: This isn't the whole truth
Not to mention the fact that "the guy" in question, even just in the part you quoted, clearly proves repeatedly that he is talking out of his ass...
as already pointed out, if anything, it would be copyright infringement, not theft...anybody planning on appearing knowledgeable and wanting to be taken seriously should at least get that right.
As for the lie about licensing: here's a quote from a legal article:
"Russian law in principle allows collective right-management organizations to issue licenses for musical works without having the respective right holders’ permission."
As long as AllOfMP3 paid for a license, AllOfMP3 is not doing anything wrong/illegal.
Now you can bitch like a little girl about whether or not right-management organizations like ROMS should have that right, but this in no way reflects on the legality of AllOfMP3.
And while we're on the subject, you (in your capacity of shill for/defender of the record industry) can't even justifiably bitch about that, since what's SoundExchange doing? Collecting money for music from artists they don't have the copyright of and on behalf of artists not belonging to their organizations, in short, for artists they effectively do not represent...
So it seems pretty clear that SoundExchange is involved in some very shady business practices. They continue to collect money that they didn't have any rights to at all. Companies like this SHOULD be shut down.
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Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
maybe you should ask the Supreme Court that, dumbass...
As far as I can tell, if you take something that isn't yours without any sort of agreement and then selling it without giving any royalties or any other form of payment to the owner, that's called stealing. Copyright infringement has nothing to do with it.
first off, wouldn't the taking something that isn't yours without any sort of agreement part be enough to constitute theft? Why do you feel the need to drag the selling it part into it?
anyway, it's clear you can't tell far, you should really read up on theft and copyright infringement
geez, does this shill technique of playing the ignorant one and rehashing the same old argument that has been (extremely easily) struck down every single it has been uttered even remotely work???
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Re:
I vaguely sense you don't want us/Techdirt to talk about what your evil masters get up to and focus on other things, but your post even fails to get that message across.
btw, yous talkie badly english
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Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
Well, if there was not even infringement then there is probably no case to be made at all.
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Allofmp3
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Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
So before you spend too much time questioning why I quoted just "a guy," how about doing your own research into who it was I was quoting.
I must also remark that I certainly didn't expect this much vitriole and hostility in response to a pretty straightforward commentary.
As for the article you posted, Mr. Coward, perhaps you would do well to read it more closely. In the second page of the article, it states quite clearly that "While the validity of such compulsory licenses remains uncertain, the Moscow City Prosecutor's Office is reluctant to initiate criminal prosecution against the web-site operators." In fact, the overriding premise of the article isn't that there is some legal basis for sites like this, but rather that IN SPITE OF their dubious legality, they aren't being prosecuted by the government. So, that article doesn't really support your notion that the company is on the up-and-up, but rather it undermines the very core of that argument.
As for Mr. Fripp's statement that what this site does amounts to "theft," it's pretty clear that he doesn't mean literal "copyright theft" but theft in the broader sense.
I do take offense at your characterizations of me being a "shill" for the "record industry." I'm simply a guy who likes King Crimson and who saw TechDirt write what I considered to be a love letter to this company that my favorite band had a dispute with. I just wanted to note that the TechDirt article was rather one-sided and that there are other reasons why the company is being prosecuted that don't have to do with the RIAA. In fact, I am probably as much an opponent of the RIAA as most of the people here. I just hate to see an artist whom I respect get screwed by a shady Russian web site.
But all of this can be reduced to a very concise, common sense argument. King Crimson/Robert Fripp made some music--music that they themselves hold the copyrights to. AllofMP3.com then took that music without their knowledge or permission and ripped it and started selling it without giving them a chance to negotiate a deal. King Crimson/Robert Fripp never granted them a license. The copyright holder never negotiated any sort of deal. According to Russian courts, it's OK for the company to operate as long as it pays a stipend into some pool which a Russian "management organization" then operates. And apparently this is permissible even if the copyright holder refuses to deal with the company. (They are in effect saying if you don't deal with AllofMP3.com, we will grant them a local license in absentia and they only have to pay you whatever they want to.) To me, that is remarkable. What other companies can claim that kind of power? They don't even need to negotiate with artists in good faith because they know that they can just pay the artist a stipend and be done with it. In most places in the rest of the world, if you own something and someone wants to make money off of it, that person has to negotiate with you, and if you don't like their "final offer," you can walk away. But apparently not in Russia, at least according to AllofMP3.com defenders.
And excuse me for being cynical about these Russian "management organizations." The American and British record industries are corrupt enough in the way they pay their artists; I suspect that a Russian management organization that accepts licensing fees on behalf of unwilling artists probably isn't the most honest of institutions.
As for your notion that "As long as AllofMP3 paid for a license, AllofMP3 is not doing anything wrong/illegal," I would take strong exception to the "wrong" part. What possible connection does the management organization have to the artists whose works they are purporting to defend? (Hmm, that sounds a little like a certain music industry group we have on this side of the pond, doesn't it?) So, according to your reasoning, there is nothing "wrong" with the company selling MP3s from a band who finds the deal unfair--as long as they pay SOMEONE SOMETHING for the license. It shouldn't take very deep thought before realizing that there is indeed something wrong with that concept.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
I agree that theft is theft. But intent does factor into the degree with which it is a moral crime. If I steal something for my own enjoyment, it is theft. But if I steal something and then repeatedly sell it and make a bunch of money, it is still theft, but it is of a greater magnitude. (This is why "larsony" laws are defined as a matter of financial degree. There is a distinction between stealing something worth $10 and stealing something worth $1000, for instance.)
I find it interesting that you acknowledge that "taking something that isn't yours without any sort of agreeement" does constitute theft. That is a tacit admission on your part that what AllofMP3.com's business model is based on theft. So it sounds like we agree on that point.
And you are the second person to call me a "shill." Can a man not argue something based on principle without being tied to people he doesn't know, doesn't like, and has no connection to? As I was telling your other friend, Mr. Coward (are the two of you related, by the way?), I'm just a fan of a band who were fighting on an individual basis with this site, and it pissed me off to see a story almost glorifying this internet site as if they stood for some greater principles and not lining their pockets.
As for the distinction between copyright "theft" and "infringement," I was speaking broadly (as I'm sure Mr. Fripp was). After all, you can't literally "steal" a copyright. He was just saying that what this site was doing amounted to a form of "theft." You and others can parse the word if you wish and get stuck on the distinction if you like, but it was besides my main point, which was that what this site was doing to some artists was fundamentally unfair on plain terms.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
As I've said in other replies, I wasn't trying to parse words about what constitutes "copyright theft" versus "copyright infringement." I was trying to make a layperson statement about how what this company was doing was fundamentally wrong because they were taking something that wasn't theirs--against the wishes of the person who owned it--and then selling it anyway. In common sense terms, that is stealing.
But I suppose it's easier to argue against my statement by pretending my point was very narrow and limited to a foolish debate about Russian statutes.
And you are the third person who called me a "shill" within just a few minutes. Seriously, it's like you all share one mind or something.
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Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
Copyright is more of a legal than musical concept. When and where did Mr. Fripp obtain his law degree? If he didn't then I would disagree with your characterization of him as "well qualified" to issue legal opinions on the subject. As has already been pointed out to you, the courts have ruled that copyright infringement is not theft.
I don't think that's at all clear. In fact, as much you or Mr. Fripp might like to disavow it, I think the statement pretty much stands on its own and paints anyone who would assert it as somewhat less than credible.
OK, so you claim to be only shilling for only one record company instead of the whole industry. You still meet the definition.
Then why didn't you? Just exactly what are these other so-called reasons that you didn't note?
But were they required to do so? If not, then under what concepts of capitalism should they? Remember, Russia is moving away from socialism.
OK then, try to keep that in mind.
I would guess other companies in Russia to begin with.
Even the US, the world's most enthusiastic copyright supporting country, has compulsory licensing. Again, you need to learn more about the subject if you really believe that it doesn't (which I doubt).
One of the differences between capitalism and socialism is that in a capitalistic system profits generally come before social concerns.
Now you're getting off into what is essentially an moralistic discussion of the concepts of capitalism versus socialism. I'm not interested in getting into that and just note that it looks like the Russian courts will be deciding the legal issues in this case.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
Theft is the taking away of someone else's property, not making a copy of it. The statement you made was untrue. In common sense terms, that's fibbing.
What's foolish about the law? I suppose you would have us ignore it?
You didn't disclose up front your loyalty to a party involved in the story before you started commenting on it. That, by definition, makes you a shill. So why shouldn't you be called that?
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Now the companies did also have the right to put pressure on Russia to change its law, but there is no reason a change in the law should apply to the past, and he should not be put in jail because something that was legal when he was doing it became illegal.
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I like the Title of this Article
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
You start by saying that Mr. Fripp's opinion is invalid because copyright is a legal concept rather than a musical concept. The fact that Mr. Fripp's company operates copyrights for his clients apparently isn't relevant?
And unless YOU have a law degree, then you are being a profound hypocrite harping on Mr. Fripp and throwing aside his opinions.
However, if you are correct in that US law allows for compulsory licensing with artists unwilling to negotiate a license with a music seller, then I learned something new today. If that's true, it seems to go against our capitalist system (i.e., governmental interference with the ability of individuals and businesses to negotiate a fair and profitable deal to sell a product).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
"A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer."
I am a music fan. I have no formal or informal business connection to any music groups; I am merely a consumer, and a person with an opinion (such as yourself). And I've made it clear that I am a King Crimson fan, so I don't see what your problem is. We all have biases. By your definition, if someone on a message board doesn't start a conversation by listing all of their previous related opinions and philosophical ideas on a topic, they are a shill, and by that definition, who isn't?
Not everyone who argues against an MP3 distribution scheme is some lackey for the RIAA. Jesus you guys are paranoid.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
Yes, you are correct in a legal sense that "Theft is the taking away of someone else's property, not making a copy of it." But I would argue that if you were to, say, make a bunch of stuffed Mickey Mouse dolls and sell them on ebay, that is a form of stealing. Is it legally more accurately known as copyright infringement? Yes, definitely. But speaking plainly, that person would be "stealing" an image that somebody else created rather than making an original. The same thing with music. Someone who makes a living taking someone else's recorded songs and selling them as a product from their own shop is, plainly speaking, "stealing" their music. If you want to dismiss me as an uneducated moron for seeing a fundamental unfairness in this, go ahead. But I would like to think that most people would understand what I'm saying and would probably agree with me in moral terms if not in legal ones.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole t
shill /ʃɪl/[shil]
Slang.
–noun 1. a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating, as at a gambling house, auction, confidence game, etc.
2. a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.
Looks like you pretty much meet the second part of that definition to me. And no, you did not originally reveal your loyalty to a member of the record industry (which, by the way, is NOT the same as the music industry as you industry shills seem to like to imply). So keep it up, shill. You're just digging your hole deeper.
Mr. Fripp isn't a lawyer and you aren't a doctor. Maybe you should both quit playing like you're things you aren't and just admit to what you are.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole t
No, it isn't. But saying it is is a form of fibbing, speaking plainly.
It is more truthfully called copyright infringement. Deliberately telling untruths or making inaccurate statements is known as lying.
I have no idea how much education you have. I dismiss you as being not credible for reasons I have already stated. If you really people to consider your point of view you should remain truthful. Once you are caught being untruthful it becomes much harder to convince people. Indeed, it probably has the opposite effect.
I think most people understand that that's not the way business works.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the whole truth
Ask someone who runs a radio station or live music entertainment venue about compulsory ASCAP licensing.
You know, I just can't figure if you're for or against capitalism. So you're for it in the US but against it in Russia? I'm starting to think that you're just for it when it suits your purposes and against it otherwise.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the who
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't the
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This isn't
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"Demonstrating Better Business Model..."
Selling stuff that's not legally yours and not paying appropriate royalty to the owners is a better business model.
I guess a really good business model is stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. Yeah, we like to hate the big guys, but they do have the rules and laws on their side. Don't like it, get them changed, but please don't applaud those that break the laws.
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Russian mp3 site
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