Group Behind 'To Catch A Predator' Claims Wikipedia Is A Corporate Sex Offender
from the might-be-a-bit-personal dept
We've seen all sorts of criticisms of Wikipedia over the years, but this might be a first. Apparently the group "Perverted Justice," the controversial online vigilante group that tries to lure online pedophiles out into the open (and is the group that is used by NBC Dateline's equally controversial "To Catch A Predator" show) is now claiming that Wikipedia is "a corporate sex offender." Apparently, if you follow the links from Wikipedia to Perverted Justice's site, it has a screed against Wikipedia -- claiming "each article on Wikipedia that deals with any issue relating to pedophiles or internet predators has been heavily targeted and edited by the online pedophile activist movement." Of course, there's a bit more to the story. Apparently, Perverted Justice's founder was recently barred from editing Wikipedia after people felt that he was flaming other users, deleting any negative reference to his organization, accusing others of being pedophiles without substantiation and when asked about it, replying "with invective." This suggests the anger at Wikipedia is a bit more about the guy being barred than any sort of official Wikipedia issue. If anything, it seems like yet another case where Wikipedia's neutral point of view has resulted in confusion. There's no doubt that Perverted Justice's reason for being is good -- but calling Wikipedia a sex offender seems quite extreme and unreasonable.
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Filed Under: dateline, nbc, pedophiles, perverted justice, sex offenders
Companies: nbc, wikipedia
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2) All anti groups eventually go batshit (eg, MADD) and destroy themselves.
3) Pedophile activist movement? WTF?! lmao. I wasn't aware there was an activist moment. Good luck with that! Ha!
4) Neutrality != endorsement. Switzerland.
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Idiots
I remain unconvinced that any of the To Catch A Predator tactics actually do anything to stop real pedophiles in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, they're a group of vigilantes, driven by self-righteousness and ratings. It's a group of dangerous idiots who should be shut down and resources directed to stopping real pedophiles (usually members of their victims own families or community, not random 'predators').
Of course, if I stated these opinions on Wikipedia, I would have the comments altered or flamed as my free speech is somehow less important than theirs. We'll see how long it takes for me to get flamed or removed here.
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Re:
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While I don't suggest that everyone go to boychat, there are threads and threads in that forum about "editing wiki".
Rookiee Revolyob (which is boylover spelled backwards) was dismissed as a wiki editor because he obviously altered dozens of articles into a pro pedophile slant.
Peej's creator, Xavier, may very well be angry about being banned, but his use of "invective" is universal and not singled out for Wiki.
I really don't want to sound like a shill, but if one reads http://www.corporatesexoffenders.com/ you'll see that wiki is listed as a "passive" offender. Not even it's worst rating. That so far has been saved for Youtube and Livejournal.
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Outrage
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Doesn't suprise me
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So, let me get this straight....
Generally, in the US, there's this thing called "Due Process". There is something else called Slander.. And even if wikipedia isn't an employer, if someone w/ a reputation got banned from wikipedia for being a pedophile, when they weren't, they could sue wikipedia for slander(as well as PJ), since wikipedia's action supported PJ's claims..
Or, if you want to look at this from wikipedia's standpoint.. Person A says Person B is a pedophile. Person B says they aren't. Why should you believe person A over person B? (Or vice versa?).
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Oh Well
*sigh*
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reason for being?
Their leader was just arrested for solicitation in Georgia. It's a crime to do what they do... trying to convince people into committing crimes. It doesn't matter if there's a girl or not, it's still solicitation.
I knew a guy caught by them.. what they don't show on TV is the 2 months of prior conversations where THEY initiated contact with him, and where they kept begging and prodding and always turning the conversation to sex whenever possible.
All it takes is enough prodding and a weak individual. In effect, they brainwash their "predators"
I'm not defending people who diddle little kids, I'm just saying there's a good chance none of their predators would have done so if they hadn't solicited it in the first place.
How many little girls are there out there actively soliciting sex from older men anyway?
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As for what PJ does, I can understand their anger and their need to take action. Our justice system does not do enough in this area, look at the catholic priest mess. Why did people blame the church for this? Why were they not asking the police to shut this down? Look at the illegal alien in Newark that was out on bail (and thats a whole different article) for child rape. Before his rape trial, he executed 3 people.
I can understand their actions, and personally, if you are going to meet with a 12 year old for sex, you pretty much deserve anything you get, up to and including a bullet in the head.
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well...
And extreme groups like these will always go on battles and people need to learn that deleting criticism is a good way of giving yourself a bad name. Especially on wikipedia.
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Re: reason for being?
Ditto.
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Predator
Wiki will arrive at the house and sit in the kitchen of a young boy/girl's house, eating milk and cookies...
uh-oh...who that in the closet? Look it's NBC Perv-Hunter Chris Hansen.
Wiki, you got some splainin' to do...
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Re: So, let me get this straight....
Actually, they would have to sue for libel. Slander is when you say something defamatory about a person that ruins their reputation and libel is when you print it.
But they wouldn't be able to sue Wikipedia anyway, they would have to sue the author.
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Pretend to be the pedophile and then go over to the kids house and tell their parents and educate the kid! I bet these kids that are willing to let strangers come to their house are pretty rare and that's why it's so easy for them to trick these pedophiles.
It would make for a good show if the two groups clashed together.
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Maybe at one time, but I really have to doubt the premise now.
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I actually saw part of an episode of this show recently and of the four(that I saw?) "predators" they caught, two of them said that they had watched the show or were "fans of the show". And, of course, they all said "I've never done anything like this before." So, I'd agree with you that this does nothing to stop anything. It's just there to raise panic.
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Re: reason for being?
I was just going to bring this up. I think the guy looks creepy like the child molester I had for an elementary school counselor(no, I wasn't one of his victims). The feds often investigate someone who seems to give a lot a tips involving a serial killer because they think it's very possibly a red herring; maybe that's the case with PJ.
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Ever heard of NAMBLA?
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To date; PJ has 220+ convictions. Not one viable law suit against them.
Wiki Scan has reciently made news with their "tattling" on who's editing posts. PJ just did this on their topic. Wiki should be free from bias. But it's not when groups conspire to slant wiki information. Regardless if that group is Scientologists, Republicans or pedophiles.
To the comment above that implied "there isn't any proof so and so is a pedophile"; Rookiee used the boylove logo on his wiki profile. He was proud about it. He had been told to remove it. When you combine this with his posts elsewhere encouraging wiki edits with pro pedo slant, there's plenty of proof.
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When good intentions turn bad...
Most people don't realize that Hitler did not start with the idea to destroy any race that was his own, he just wanted to create the perfect world. Even wants a perfect world but two problems (and I'm sure there are more) are, "What is the definition of a perfect world?" and "How do you build a perfect world?"
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That is due process.
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Perverse Justice is an Oxymoron...
I suspect that Perverted Justice is a group of Satanists who, through their program are trying to further unhinge the hearts from the minds of the populace. The irony is that these people are the same group that infiltrated the catholic church and created the child rape scandal there, so as a means to allow a bit of an 'Inquisition' of their own.
This was an easy set of social expectations to turn on their head.
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According to one of the linked articles, last year there was also "a bizarre incident involving an Arkansas pilot — a married man (and non-pedophile) who still vehemently opposed the group. He’d threatened everything from online computer attacks to investigations from the IRS. The response? Erck says his group lured the married man into an online romance by pretending to be a sympathetic female and then continued the online relationship for several months, leading to the collection of thousands of lines of chat."
Ultimately their antics outed the unfaithful husband to his wife, and the man's marriage was destroyed. Pretty harsh. I guess that's 220 convictions, and one marriage....
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Re:
Being a straight, heterosexual male... I don't keep abreast of the happenings in the homosexual pedophile world. Sorry.
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Re:
YouTube and LiveJournal, eh? I guess the emo kids with psycho parents are SOL.
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Perverted Justice is Probably 50% pedohiles.
Maybe if we had a coin toss and Al Qaida won, American social norms would be considered the evil around the world (come to think of it, American society IS considered evil around many parts of the world).
Anyone persecuting anyone else outside the definitions of the local social norms laws become vigilantes ... just like Hitler's brownshirts.
These "Perverted Justice" guys are part of the problem, not the solution. Are they protecting kids ... I would bet half of them ARE pedophiles just using the name as a guise to get their own kicks under the false pretense of doing good. The other half is just the brownshirts of 2007. That's why police groups don't use idiots like them.
How do we protect our society??? Get harsh with the offenders ... but going witch hunting is not the answer.
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Re: Re: So, let me get this straight....
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Bad Journalism
However, in these child sting shows, in order for the chat room evidence to be used in court against these guys, both the Perverted Justice folks and the Dateline crew have to be sworn in as special deputies, working with the police. So now you have a journalist who has completely stepped out of his role as reporter and become a cop and has violated his ethical obligation to objectively tell the story without bias.
I also have to laugh when it comes to the way the cops swarm all over these guys when they walk out the door and tackle them to the ground as if they are al-Qa'ida mass-murderers.
The cops' excuse for doing so in one of the past shows was that it was a residential neighborhood in Florida and the Florida concealed carry laws are so liberal, they don't want to take the chance that one of these guys could have a gun and shoot off some rounds in suburbia.
Of course that begs the question as to why they're luring these dangerous, perverted and possibly armed sexual deviants into people's neighborhoods in the first place. The cops and Dateline create the dangerous situation and then use the fact that it's a dangerous situation as an excuse to play tough cop.
And if they're really worried that one of these guys might be armed, then I have to wonder how much protection that Dateline reporter has. What's to stop one of these guys, who is watching his life swirl down the crapper right there in front him, from deciding he's got nothing left to lose and pulling a gun on Mr. Dateline? He could send three rounds right through Chris Hansen before anyone could do anything to stop him.
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Re:
Don't forget the Wiccans, Democrats, and homosexuals! :)
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You mean that their **stated** reason for being is good. It is not clear that this organization of vigilantes is, in fact, good.
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Re: Anon Coward
And the proof of the person being a pedophile is...? There are plenty marijuana use supporters out there that do not use it themselves, does that make them drug users? You obviously lack the understanding of "proof" and how it all fits in with "due process."
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Of course the cops swarm the person, ever see a cop go up to a car on a routine traffic stop that didn't have their hand on their gun?
I do have to say, either some posts are trolling or there really is a pervert PR campaign going on.
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Re:
FOAD.
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Right idea- wrong way
I would be more impressed if PJ was working with Law Enforcement in a "quiet" manner instead of the sensationalism that is present with MSNBC. It is nothing more than the latest reality TV.
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RE: Three rounds
Better to send the three rounds through the camera. NBC would probably morn the loss of an expensive HD camera more than the reporter. Plenty of people ready to replace him.
Then again, they could probably play up the loss of the reporter... Could be worth millions in free advertising for the network and show.
Never mind. Back to plan A.
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Re:
that's just pathetic...
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Huh?
Here it is. The child goes to a therapist. The therapist declares that the child has been abused. They arrest some poor sod and hold him/her till the court date. The date rolls around and what does the person have to defend his/herself against? No physical proof, no dates or times, and no facing the accuser. Just the word of the therapist. And here it is...the verdict....most of the time the sod goes to jail.
The conviction rate isn't high because the law enforcement agencies are just that good. The conviction rate is so high because it is darn near impossible to beat a rape case in this day and age.
These PJ people are not helping the American People. They are nothing more than vultures, creating thier own carrion. I charge any of you to look into the laws, the penalties, and the people and then tell me what is being done is "good" and "right".
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Re: Right idea- wrong way
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Re: Bad Journalism
The legal distinction between requiring a release and not requiring one is the difference between hard news and entertainment. A hard news show is not legally required to obtain a release from people for 1st Amendment reasons. But an entertainment show does require a legal release. And NBC has clearly crossed over from hard news to entertainment with this "Predator" series. If they're ever sued by one of these guys they're going to have a hard time making the case that this is hard news, considering they've violated
just about every one of the canon of ethics for journalism with this nonsense.
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Re: RE: Three rounds
> of the reporter... Could be worth millions in free
> advertising for the network and show.
Yep, we'd then have endless weeks of tributes to the "courageous" reporter who gave his life to protect us all by exposing sexual predators.
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Re: Perverted Justice is Probably 50% pedohiles.
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Re: Huh?
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Re: Re: Bad Journalism
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Re: Re: Re: Bad Journalism
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My comments regarding Eide.
Great conversation here regarding the latest in a series of mishaps concerning both Perverted-Justice.com and Dateline NBC.
I posted the news article in our News section, and also on our blog.
The blog entry is a bit different than the news article, and I'll post my thoughts here.
"Publishers Comment.
I do not understand why WilyD has deleted the entire Talk section. In light of ongoing court cases, and to preserve evidence and information, the Talk section should not have been deleted.
Deleting it also causes me to wonder about the effectiveness of any Wikipedia Administrator who has, what appears to be, censored Wikipedia. If User WilyD agrees with Perverted-Justice.com, then it is incumbent upon him to keep those in check, and adhere to the “Negative Point of View” of Wikipedia.
I believe it is vital to show why Eide, aka XavierVE was blocked from posting in Wikipedia. WileyD has, by deleting the Talk section, removed publicly viewable evidence supporting the blocking.
Furthermore, I call on Eide to mature, state his case as an adult, adhere to the rules governing Wikipedia, and be allowed to post within Wikipedia, at such time as determined by the Wikipedia Administration.
Censorship is censorship, no matter who. Granted, both Eide and his detractors have other outlets to state their respective cases, but, should Eide stay within the boundaries set up by Wikipedia, I welcome his input into Wikipedia."
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Hmmm intresting quote from PJ site
-----------------------------
Selected comment #2:
Or, if you want to look at this from wikipedia's standpoint.. Person A says Person B is a pedophile. Person B says they aren't. Why should you believe person A over person B? (Or vice versa?).
Because person B doesn't deny it in 99% of cases
------------------------------
So what you are saying is that you can accuse me of anything and unless I strenuously object repeatedly in all forms of media...I am what you accused me of being. Thats just stupid logic if you ask me.
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Whoa blamming service providers
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"And the proof of the person being a pedophile is...? There are plenty marijuana use supporters out there that do not use it themselves, does that make them drug users? You obviously lack the understanding of "proof" and how it all fits in with "due process.""
You don't need due process to be kicked out of wiki. It's a private organization. No legal procedures are required. You, Xavier, and Rookie the boylover doesn't have any right to post on wiki.
Obviously, you don't understand that due process is a legal term that applies to the state charging individuals. If you get banned from techdirt for being a knucklehead, you have no legal recourse. The owners and operators of techdirt don't need a court order to ban you.
Rookiee wasn't banned for being a pedophile. He was banned for violating wiki NPV rules. It's his own statements that label himself a pedophile. Feel free to front for any cause you care to, but recuse yourself from altering wiki articles on your bias. Rookiee didn't do that, he did the opposite. There was no "due process" because he wasn't charged by the government.
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huh
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Re: Re: It's actually worse than that!
Most of the people they "catch" in their stings can't be held more than nine months!
"Simmons discovered that of the eight convictions from the Fort Myers Dateline sting, four men have already been released. Sixteen other men that were arrested are still waiting for their day in court.
"I believe the longest sentence that we have is nine months, that's not nearly enough to convince these people not to go on the internet and look for their next victim," said Chief Daniels."
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Re: Riiiiiiiight....
Stop letting these amateurs muck everything up playing out their wannabe cybercop fantasies and allow the *REAL* cops to do their jobs. You know, the TRAINED law enforcement officers who know how to dot their 'i's and cross their 't's so anyone actually trying to commit a crime gets caught and STAYS caught?
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Re:
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Pedophilia
2. It is law enforcement's job to deal with it.
3. Vigilante groups do not operate under civil liberties safeguards.
4. Vigilante groups are fair game when the violate the law.
5. Sting operations can cut both ways. For civil libertarians who are offended by vigilante groups, a few reverse sting operations might go a long way to clear minds
6. Once vigilante groups are legally penalized as a result of 5 (above) or end up paying heavy court-ordered damages, perhaps they will come to understand the laws of the land rather better.
7. Nothing in this post should be interpreted as defending pedophiles, who are repugnant both to morality and the law.
8. Infringing civil liberties for "the greater good" is something only Congress and the Supreme Court have the right to do, and most carefully and with circumspection.
9. To understand the issue clearly, we could easily eliminate overtime parking by making it a death penalty offense. That doesn't mean we should do so.
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GG guys,GG.
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"A few reverse sting..."
What are you suggesting? Going into yahoo chat and arranging to meet some kids, untill you find a real cop or PJ contributor?
How many felonys are you willing to commit before you actually find someone to "reverse sting"?
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Re:
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Brass eye
and the gibberish above, which I assume is an attempt at stopping people reading any further, i.e. fingers in the ears shouting to drown out something someone doesn't like..
well its a bit playground isn't it?
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Re: Re:Stinging the stingers
Once they are caught red-handed in illegal acts, both civil and criminal law will provide adequate remedy, and clear their minds as to the boundaries of acceptable action in aid of whatever cause a particular vigilante group is pursuing.
Nothing in this post is intended to defend pedophilia, which when acted on is both illegal and morally repugnant.
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Re: Re: Re:Stinging the stingers
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And you say that the 4 arrested in the FL stings only got 9 months?
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A few points
1. The multiple entries regarding tech dirt being full of pedophiles is a good example of why persons with the mental capacities similiar to those of young children with behavioral issues should not participate in meaningful communications regarding this issue. I am not sure if the post was meant to disrupt this topic, or if the poster accidently posted their application for employment with PJ in this forum. This is my juvenile attempt at humor.
2. Post #80 makes some excellent points.
3.I would warn that acting on ones own and attempting to engange in stings and so forth could result in a variety of legal problems, despite the best of intentions. Murphy's law would, in this instance dictate, that despite what others may get away with, you would be the one that would be used by the prosecutor to send a message to others.
4.People/Groups and so on who attempt their own actions often make things more difficult for those performing the same duties in an official capacity. This is because mistakes are made, protocols and laws are not followed and this results in "bad" case law, which further results in legal loop-holes for the real bad guys. It is difficult enough when all the rules are followed. As there is not a "For Dummies" series book on this subject, it would be best be left to those who are properly trained to investigate these type of cases.
5. I would submit to you yet again that the whole PJ and Dateline series has turned into nothing more than another bad reality t.v. show. I know most of us who worked in this field are not very happy with all the exposure. As previously stated it is difficult enough to work these cases in a proper manner. We didn't really want the bad guys to know we are out there and what methods we use.
6.Please do not blame law enforcement for the time people serve/or do not serve or the fact that they get out on bail. The POLICE DO NOT EVER "LET" anyone out on bail. That is the legal system and I can guarantee you- it is most frustrating to those of us who spend countless hours working cases only to have a person out in a short amount of time. Not in just these types of cases but in several other serious crimes. No one suffers from this more than the victims and law enforcement. I will not give you the standard line of false hope that if you do not like the legal system you can change it but if you believe that your elected representative will actually listen to you, then contact him/her and voice your concerns. Or contact them and let them know that you feel law enforcement needs to be better funded to investigate these crimes.
If any one is frustrated by the legal system it is those trying to enforce the laws.
7.It is a fact that pedophilia is a serious problem, not only in our country but across the world and has been since documentation regarding crimes has been kept. The ages of what is considered "legal" has flucuated with the changes and variety of laws regarding the age of consent-but the crime has occured throughout history. The access to the Internet by typical American households added another method of contact, (one that is more anonymous than previous methods) and widen the access to potential victims. So is the Internet to blame?
8. Reality is that there are "kids" on line- 13, 14 and so on, posting information and engaging in activities that most people would find shocking and parents, when presented with evidence, often refused to believe what their kid was doing. Should parents be charged for not monitoring their "kids" activity on the Internet? The argument has been presented that if the parents handed their 14 year old the car keys and let them drive, the parents would be charged with an offense for allowing a minor to operate a motor vehicle. Therefore the theory that the parents should be responsible for what their kids are doing on the Internet. Another topic for healthy debate.
9.Adult conversations/debates such as this are healthy. I do not think that any one in any part of this debate attempted to defend pedophilia. Had that been the case, I think the tone of the responses would have been a bit different. Thanks for letting me participate
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put some pic of pedos online.
we had seen a man in GOA on a trip(its a tourist place in India).I live in Hyderabad.He was from US.He was seen hanging with urchin kids who sell stuff on beach.Guess what appened to his luggage his credit card and and his hotel room.We hired a girl along withhim.got him drunk and then put cynoacrilite (quickfix)in his ass.The girl was 15.(Ever see a livin dead person.Her eyes were empty hollows).she could have been anything.A mother,a wife.We put her up with an ngo. I say any one caught doin somethin like that.Should be given PROPER tretment. We were seen with man or else his folks could fish for this madarchod in Indian ocean.I say these types of ppl should be put with black serial gay rapists .Let em have the taste of their own medicine.I am not racist for the black part only that they have longer and larger dks. ;)
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predators
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Re: Re: Huh?
The government starts taking away our liberty in areas that the public is in agreement of. Our freedom is slowly slipping away and everyone is in support of it. Take the time to look at the restrictions that sex offenders have to live with. Look at satalite based monitoring. In NC, the police can come in your home and do warrantless searches, all to protect the public. The truth is that most of the time, children are molested by people that families know. A mothers boyfriend or husband or a family friend, not strangers. The basis for most of these laws are very rare circumstances from cases that were in every way horrible but should they be enough to make everyone that is on the registry live this way? And by the way, do you know who all is included in this registry? It doesn't take much to get you there.
Main point: ANYONE CAN BE ACCUSED OF THESE CRIMES! All it takes is someone who believes one little lie and take the charge to court. There it is, your life is over. I think the public needs to be aware of the percentage of wrongful convictions. Jurors go into court and assume that the defendant "must be there for some reason" and the conviction is guaranteed.
JUST THINK, YOU COULD BE NEXT. DO YOU HAVE AN EX-GIRLFRIEND OR WIFE OF WHOM YOU DONT GET ALONG WITH TO WELL?
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Re: So, let me get this straight....
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Re: So, let me get this straight....
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