RIAA Wins Case, Gloats
from the this-won't-help dept
As we expected this morning, the RIAA has won its lawsuit against a woman for sharing files. This is unfortunate in the long run, as the decision is actually going to hurt the companies the RIAA represents more than if it had lost the case. That's because the RIAA will take this as a validation of its "sue our fans" strategy, rather than realizing it's finally time to try a different model. In the meantime, the woman in the case, Jammie Thomas, never should have let the case go this far as there appeared to be plenty of evidence that she actually did break the law. The RIAA often has weak evidence, but in this case the evidence was much stronger. Unfortunately, that distinction won't be made by most, and they'll simply assume that if the RIAA won this case, it should win many others. The RIAA, of course, wasted no time in gloating about the decision and is using this to push others to settle rather than fighting the RIAA lawsuits. This actually is reasonable advice if, as in this case, you were guilty of breaking the law and the RIAA has the evidence to show it. The problem is that's often not the case -- yet, again, that important point will get lost.
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This is not good...
Ummmm...first relevant post?
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This only proves the law system is broken for the
It is a scary world we live in when the RIAA can bully people into paying for literally nothing but reproducing a non-tangible good which I can do at an amazing rate on my computer. A magnetic wave that is duplicated cannot be equated to a settlement of this magnitude. I feel sorry for this lady, her children, and everyone else who gets in this modern day witch-hunt. Shame on the legal system and shame on the RIAA, I will never purchase another piece of their shitty music again (Which I might add is merely the same melodies people have been using for thousands of year, absolutely pathetic)
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Re: This only proves the law system is broken for
I think this brings up a good point. Copyright laws were made at a time when copying is done on physical, tangible objects, such as books and tapes, which requires some effort. They are too out of date to cover computer and Internet usages, where copying is merely a click of the mouse.
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20 Songs?
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Re: 20 Songs?
The verdict was for 'willful" infringement, basically meaning the fine could have been as high as $150,000 per song. ($3.6 million)
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The Fine Is A crime
The fine on the other hand is insane. The cost of a nice house for 24 files which may or may not have been downloaded is crazy. they might as well shoot the poor lady now since this pretty much destroys her financially. In my opinion this fits the definition of cruel and unusual punishment. Sad thing is this lady has a collection of hundreds of CD's. Besy Buy showed the recipts for the purchases. So the RIAA is slamming a very good customer of theirs. More reason not to buy.
HOIST THE PIRATE FLAG MATIES!!!
On a side note: I didn't know people still use Kazaa.
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Fair and just
She offered no evidence in her own defense. 'I didn't do it' isn't evidence.
The effort put in to infringing on a copyright has what to do with the laws? Because something is easier to do doesn't make it less wrong (legally or morally).
It is one thing to argue against DRM encumbering fair use but I would hope that no one believes they have the right to take someone elses work without compensating them. You can be pissed at how much the other person wants for their work but that isn't justification for stealing it or making it possible for others to steal it.
If there was less file sharing of copyrighted music maybe the labels wouldn't be DRM-crazy.
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Re: Fair and just
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Re: Re: Fair and just
A part of or the whole song doesn't matter. She contributed to everyone who directly downloaded any portion of the song from her.
Her bandwidth is irrelevant. As soon as someone finishes downloading 1 section of the file, they start seeding it (normally). If only 10 people are downloading from her machine at any one time doesn't mean she only allowed 10 people to infringe, how many people were those 10 seeding to? It isn't a closed system with her at the center of a small group. Take a piece of paper and put 9250 dots on it. Now start randomly drawing lines between dots, that is what file seeding looks like.
Not even 9250 people on Kazaa? So you have no clue.
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Re: Re: Re: Fair and just
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Fair and just
It's not her responsibility what the other people did with it. She can only be held responsible for what SHE did with it. Unless she was the first person to put it on the network, the people that downloaded it from her would have just gotten it somewhere else if she wasn't there.
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Re: Re: Re: Fair and just
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Fair and just
Oh shit! Did you see what I just did there? I WIN!!!!111one
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Re: Re: Re: Fair and just
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Re: Re: Re: Fair and just
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Re: Re: Re: Fair and just
Well, then you have my sympathies. "Chuck" is an unfortunate name for a dudette to have to bear.
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Re: Fair and just
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Re: Fair and just
I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on the RIAA's evidence. Based on what they presented, it doesn't appear they had much in the way of evidence that directly implicated the accused. It seemed dubious at best.
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Why did they pick her?
Also, why are they going after regular people who are sharing files, instead of people committing actual piracy? Regardless of what copyright zealots would have you believe, little Jimmy is not a pirate for making a copy of a song or album from his friend. Piracy is something that happens when you go to China and buy an entire operating system or an entire movie for a dollar. Someone makes a profit by producing a knock-off of someone else's material. Or like when you go to New York and spend $10 buying a knock-off Prada hand bag and that person is making $10 off of a product that they essentially ripped off from the real person who owns the copyright on the real thing.
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Re: Why did they pick her?
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Re: Why did they pick her?
Having my iPOD stolen, or my whole collection of CD's stolen is not piracy. Making copies of my music or data CD's and giving them away (for profit or not), or leaving them where they can be found and taken is wrong because it aids and abets robbery, aka, piracy.
Just because you want your music for free, or just because you don't think it's stealing, doesn't mean you're justified in your actions. If you obtain a product with out paying for (unless it's purposely given way for free), then you're a thief.
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Re: Re: Why did they pick her?
"Having my iPOD stolen ... is not piracy"
"robbery, aka, piracy"
WTF!?!??!
Did your parents have any children that lived?!?
RIAA-tard.
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This is the essence of capitalism
But the very basis of the recording industry is piracy. Record executives, managers, and distributors take credit for the creativity of other people. They buy up the content created by other people and pass it off as their own. If copyright represented the will of the creators, then it would not be transferable. The intent of copyright law is to encourage creators to create original works by giving them a limited time to have complete control of their own work. But this concept has been twisted so that the creators don't benefit, only the people with the most money benefit. So, creators are not encouraged to create original works, carpetbaggers are encouraged to farm out unoriginal works to hirelings.
But the copyright cartel is a cornerstone of the of the capitalist economy, and if it fails to enforce legalized piracy, then the value of money will plummet. Money is only worth what we think it is worth; the US dollar is backed only by the ability of the US government to tax its citizens. A small group of international bankers prints the money we use and decides what it is worth, but they give themselves as much money as they wish. We are a slave nation, paying for the luxuries of a small elite group while the rest of us increasingly lose money. Of course they will never give up defending the extension of copyright; that is one more avenue by which they decide what our money is worth. If that system fails, watch the whole US economy collapse like a house of cards. The people who own the money will buy a totalitarian police state with their influence before they will give up on their artificial monopoly of non-scarce goods.
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Re: This is the essence of capitalism
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Re: This is the essence of capitalism
The more capitalist thing would be to fix the law to actually encourage competition, and actually encourage the free market to set its own price for goods and services. That's capitalism.
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How they decide monetary damages needs to be exami
They often claim companies have lost million, but X number of people out of work... but they never seem to have offered EVIDENCE of how these figures are arrived at.
If Universal Music claims to have lost "200 million in 2006" over piracy, do they claim a $200M loss to their shareholders? Is that amount REALLY on the books? If so, they need to be able to demonstrate, in black and white, how the dollar amount is determined.
Chances are those numbers are HIGHLY subject to guesswork, thereby making the claims suspicious, random and open to whatever figures make them happiest.
What I'd really like to see is how they prove to a court the validity of the amount in question. THAT should have been a major component in the defenses' case.
Who WERE the defense attourneys anyway? I assume if it was the EFF we would have heard about it AND it would have been a stronger case.
Did these guys know ANYTHING about the subject matter or where they a bunch of ambulence chasers looking to make headlines for themselves with a high profile case?
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Re: How they decide monetary damages needs to be e
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RIAA Wins, America Loses
We're in trouble America. There's a nasty anti-citizen fascism occurring here unlike any in our history. When big industry (RIAA, MPAA, Verizon, AT&T, Comcast) and the federal government (Patriot Act, warrantless wiretapping) team up like this then we're living more in Orwell's "1984" than Rockwell's "America". It's a bad, bad situation when you start fearing your own industry-government more than the alleged terrorist threat. And if you ask this woman and the thousands who've been fleeced by the RIAA/MPAA who the terrorists are, who do you think they'll point to ? Our very own Gestapo.
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Re: RIAA Wins, America Loses
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Re: Re: RIAA Wins, America Loses
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Re: Re: RIAA Wins, America Loses
No kidding. Anything anyone says, by definition, is rhetoric. Including your own posts.
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Re:
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Conspiracy Theory time
I mean I can't see her ever being able to actually pay the $200k and possibly going bankrupt. So maybe she has just enough money to pay her lawyers fees to go to court and now she is out of money and can go bankrupt. And the RIAA gets a really good judgment that they get to work into future cases ;)
Just pondering, I have nothing at all to base that on...
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I don't want to imply that the deterrence rationale is what should be present in the law, but it does explain it.
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Re:
I honestly hope I live to see the day the RIAA makes a fatal mistake and someone brings them down once and for all...
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Re:
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what is a copyright anyway.
Protection is extended essentially to any new material from the time it is produced, and has been extended by law.
But the purpose of protecting my copyright material from you is to prevent you from (1) claiming that you actually created it, or (2) keeping you from making a profit on it.
The act of simply copying a piece of work should not be a crime, the act of you selling it to someone else (pirates) or claiming that you created it should be punishable to the extent of the law.
If I were a composer (which I am not) and I created a new song and someone else claimed it was theirs, I would sue to high heaven to retain my rights. If I sold only a few copies of the song to someone, and then a lot of people copied it to listen on their own players, I would not be upset, only if someone were out there selling those copies for a profit without giving me a share. The more people listen to my music by spreading the copy, the more would be willing to buy my next song or come to watch a concert of my works. This has been shown time and time again to be the "new" model (which upsets the profit stream of RIAA and the such. They are the real vultures, profiting on what I compose, and then thwarting my listeners with their draconian tactics.
I say return the real spirit of copyright, sue if someone tries to make a profit, sue if someone wrongly claims creative ownership, otherwise understand that copying for personal use and even limited sharing actually increases the value of an intellectual work.
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Hmmm
Radiohead has finished their contractual agreement with their label, and has released a plan to "pay what you want" for their new album coming out in a few days. They figured that the album would have been leaked anyhow, and since they aren't represented by the labels, why not release a digital copy themselves?
After all is said and done, if they make an average of > $1.30 or more per album, they have made more than they would have with a label. Minimum price for the album is $.91 to cover overhead, but you could still get the album for 1 cent if you were so inclined.
To quote Andy Langer from Austin, this is a key point in music distribution history. In 2017, people will remember this event as the day that started it all. Musicians mass market are snubbing the labels.
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The Real Point Is This...
I have no more sympathy for the RIAA than I would for a buggy-whip maker from the turn of the century who turned to armed robbery when the advent of the automobile made his economic model obsolete.
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Re: The Real Point Is This...
They have no clue. Someone moved the cheese. It's time to find some new cheese, instead of regurgitating the same old smelly crap, packaging it up and trying to convince us that the cheese is brand new.
And what has the RIAA really accomplished? The woman will probably file for bankruptcy, and nobody will ever get paid, not even her lawyer. The woman has a job with the Feds, which is an easy paycheck to garnish, so she likely has no choice except to file bankruptcy. This really seems like extortion or highway robbery, to tie a single mother up for the rest of her life in a financial obligation that she'll never be able to pay. F--- the RIAA.
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"Six major record companies accuse Thomas, 30, of sharing 1,702 songs online"
http://www.publicradio.org/columns/futuretense/2007/10/04.shtml
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Re:
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A better idea for those who want to download music
Learn what newsgroups are (specifically binary newsgroups)... I don't endorse any particular company for newsgroup service, but giganews.com comes to mind. Learn to use the binary newsgroups to download what you are looking for. You still want to use TOR, Privoxy, PeerGuardian and other tools that help make you anonymous on the internet.
USE ENCRYPTION WHEN YOU CAN, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU USE TOR!!! I put it all caps because it needs that much emphasis. The weakness of the TOR network is that a malicious TOR exit node can sniff unencrypted traffic. Who do you suspect would have malicious TOR exit nodes?? If you answered "the same sum-bitches that tracked me down on the P2P network" you win a furry stuffed monkey. Encrypted traffic can be sniffed, but it is complete jibberish without any realistic hope of deciphering it. If you send everything unencrypted, it is incredibly easy to get your passwords, usernames, websites you visit, people that connect to you and you to them, and the list goes on and on. USE ENCRYPTION!
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Wilfull Infringment? To what purpose?
The law needs to be rewritten so that in cases where there is willful infringement it has to be shown that the defendant was also profiting from the infringement. If that can't be shown, the default judgment should be no more then the "retail" price of the infringed content. Afterall, this at least let's the RIAA "recover" the money that they would have gained had she been a customer...
Nah, but that'll basically shutdown the RIAA's strategy if that were to happen (dominance of the music market through fear)...They'll fight any changes to the law in that manner to the bitter end.
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Re: Wilfull Infringment? To what purpose?
I find that I spend a LOT of time reading about RIAA/MPAA stories all on the web. And, the comments always have a lot to say about how the law should be changed.
Since THEY lobby our representatives in Washington, what is stopping us from doing it?
I can not say I have ever read a story about all of the people who bitch about the law, be it copyright or DMCA, complaining in mass to our representatives about what we think a fair law should be.
What does it take for all of us citizens, who do care about the music and movies we enjoy, to call, write, or email our congressman or senator and express our feelings.
If enough people call, write, and email often enough, then maybe some attention to protect us, the consumer, and the content producers (not their associations) in a fair way with fair laws will occur.
EFF has done a lot. But, we the people own the biggest lobby. We just don't seem to be using it.
We all bitch and opine on comment areas like this one. Send a copy to Washington every time you post!
Oh, my congressman is Don Manzullo. And, he DOES know who I am. I let him know load and often.
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Re: Re: Wilfull Infringment? To what purpose?
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Stop buying their music
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Lets try and support her...
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Truth Is
This case will be forgotten. People hosting digital content will continue to have better programs available to obscure their identity. Once a certain level of obscurity is obtained our current laws in the U.S. will be so far outdated behind current technology that only those people who truly dont' realize they're sharing files will be able to be identified. It's just an amazing web of legality, morality, and stupidity. In the end the masses will get what they want, which is to share music.
What is moral changes. Morality in the future in regards to digital content will change too, sit back and watch it happen. As I said, this trial wont change anything, the people will. It's obvious which way they're leaning.
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Stop Buying
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Re: Stop Buying
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Did the RIAA win?
As far as the legal issues I am not a lawyer so I simply do not understand.
As far as the moral issues I have a hard time coming to grips with concept that this is little more than a lot of penny theft on the same plane as low level shop lifting.
On a person plane, since I have a computer and a internet connection, I will not allow ANY music to exist in any form from any source paid for legally in my computer as I could be then be placed in the position that I would have to prove that the music us obtained legally something that can not be done with digital content.
Not only that I have much the same feeling toward almost any computer download file as there is in general no proof of legal acquiring.
If the number of phase attacks, scams, and cases of fraud are added to this then there develops a world in where a such a large number of people distrust the internet that financial transactions over the internet are viewed with such suspension that all transactions are viewed as illegal, scams or theft.
The computer types may view this as an illogical results but psychology has never been logical in a computer sense and is a perfect logical results in a world where one is continuously being hussled, scammed, and led to compounded by a political class that believes that such action is the appropriate moral actions of responsible individuals backed up by a court system that equally condones such.
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Re: Did the RIAA win?
Now on to the main topic:
You said "...I will not allow ANY music to exist in any form from any source paid for legally in my computer as I could be then be placed in the position that I would have to prove that the music us obtained legally something that can not be done with digital content."
First, digital content can be protected with digital signatures that can act as a receipt of sorts that can show who the file is legally licensed to and from whom it came from. That's the whole idea behind Digital Rights Management (DRM). It's also a nasty nasty way to control content. If you are a regular reader of Tech Dirt, you know DRM is synonymous with Evil :)
Second, if you buy your music online and download it (or ANY file purchased for that matter), it's assumed you have an account with the store you buy the music from which means there's a log of what you bought and when. And if they don't keep logs for a reasonable length of time (say, 5 years, perhaps?) it's time to shop elsewhere. Also you get a purchase confirmation email, that can also act as proof. (I've never heard of an online store that doesn't send these out when purchases are made.)
Third, if on the RARE chance you are named in a suit by mistake, and you didn't do anything wrong and you have proof that the songs on your computer are yours, (side note: if own CD's converted to e.g. mp3's you would keep the CD's right?) you'll win the lawsuit and very likely an organization like the RIAA will pay for your legal costs just like they did for Debbie Foster.
Fourth, If you have children, or live with anyone that uses YOUR computer, you had better know what they are doing...
You said, "If the number of phase attacks, scams, and cases of fraud are added to this then there develops a world in where a such a large number of people distrust the internet that financial transactions over the internet are viewed with such suspension that all transactions are viewed as illegal, scams or theft."
Glad we don't live in that world. If you think that's what's going to happen to the internet, I don't think you have anything to worry about.
There's no need to be paranoid. Just be edumakated.
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Seriuosly?
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Re:
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sad day..
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I think that they made a deal with her to lose the case, and they pay the fines so they come out on top and she goes on with life.
I invite them to come sue me... Please, oh please... because I have a global law firm at my disposal that handles IP/copyright cases and they always win, no matter the side they are on. RIAA approached them to handle their cases, but they were smart enough to know it would hurt them in the long run to be on the wrong side. Best part is that they will do it pro bono. Unless rewarded court costs and legal fees by the court.
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RE: Lets try and support her...
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Yeah, I know, the content isn't worth what they charge, so you just download it. Funny thing is, when artists ditch the label and sell it themselves, you will do the same thing to them.
Hell, talk about personal responsibility, accept the fact that you don't want to pay for anything.
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Netscape.
It helped them out a lot, lol
Then I read the above and it's like dealing with the BMV to have digital music. I have enough complexities in life, to hell with all that. I'll just not bother buying or listening, there's other stuff that's far less of a hassle to do.
I'm simply not going to worry about how long a site keeps it's logs, or anything else like that for that matter. If I can't pay for something and then not have to worry about it after the fact, I'll just not buy it - pretty simple.
And like walking alone in the city at night - some times, it's just best not to do certain things and you won't have to worry about it. I'll live with the current CD collection I have, heck I don't listen to it that often anyway.
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Stop buying RIAA music
In any case this simply confirms in my mind that Most RIAA music is not worth it! People should stop buying it!
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wifi?
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