Anonymous ISP Owner Speaks Out, As Feds Appeal Ruling Against Patriot Act

from the freedom-of-speech,-eh? dept

Tue, Nov 6th 2007 11:21am — Mike Masnick

It will probably come as little surprise, but the Justice Depatment has now made it official that it plans to appeal the ruling that found that the parts of the Patriot Act that expanded the power of so-called "National Security Letters" was unconstitutional. The issue here is that the Justice Department has been using these letters to get private info from telcos, ISPs and others without any oversight. Beyond not even needing to get a judge's approval, the FBI has apparently been so disorganized that it tracks the use of these NSLs on index cards and has had trouble keeping track of how often they're used. Not surprisingly, a court found this all problematic, but the Justice Department continues to insist that it's just fine and dandy. In response, the anonymous small ISP owner who filed the original lawsuit has spoken out against the policy, noting that the gag order imposed on recipients of national security letters makes it "impossible... to discuss their specific concerns with the public, the press and Congress." He also stated: "This seems to be counterintuitive to everything I assumed about this country's commitment to free speech and the value of political discourse." Indeed. It's yet to be explained why there isn't any oversight here at all. Given the opportunity for abuse when there's no oversight, can someone give a good reason why these things should be allowed? They can be just as effective with a judge approving them. However, with no oversight and the corresponding gag order, it seems like an open playing field for abuse of the system. Given that the FBI can't even track how they're using these tools, it seems even more dangerous.

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Filed Under: national security letters, patriot act

29 Comments

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pokerface, 6 Nov 2007 @ 11:40am

Usual Rant ver. 1
Let us get over with the mandatory comment (or open the necessary can of worms, depending on your viewpoint):

"You have nothing to fear, if you have done nothing wrong."

-PF
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claire rand, 6 Nov 2007 @ 11:56am

ahem
"You have nothing to fear, if you have done nothing wrong."

but therein lies the problem, who defines "wrong"
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Freedom, 6 Nov 2007 @ 12:28pm

Taking the bait...
What has happened to America?

Power is power and when possible those that have it WILL abuse it to protect their own interests at some point.

This nation was built on checks and balances and this nonsense has to stop. It's nice to see that the little guy is fighting back. Interestingly, the big guys seem to be rolling over despite they are the ones that have the greater resources to push back.
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JustMe, 6 Nov 2007 @ 12:37pm

The communists said years ago that the US can not be beat from the outside but the inside. We are being beaten from the inside and a lot of it is by ourselves.

Pray that enough people in the US figure this out and fight back before it is too late.
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TheDock22, 6 Nov 2007 @ 12:39pm

Bad government
I thought things like this were protecting in the constitution, no unlawful searches and seizures. To make it lawful you need a judge's approval. Unfortunately the only way to fight our government and their increasing corruptness is to quit hiring corrupt officials. If only more young people would educate themselves more on politics and actually vote.
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Instructor (profile), 6 Nov 2007 @ 12:39pm

The US Constitution
The Constitution of the United States is not a perfect document, but it sure beats what we are living under right now.
--
Concealed Handgun == Your Civil Right
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Peet McKimmie (profile), 6 Nov 2007 @ 12:59pm

Guess why filing cards...
They store the info on filing cards because the Freedom of Information Act makes it much easier to request computer records rather than physical paperwork. (And filing cards are easier to misplace/shred without leaving any evidence...)
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2007 @ 1:21pm

its ok...
Don't worry everyone, we just have to scrap the constitution in order to protect it. Everyone go back to worrying about keeping their jobs so you can pay your mortgage/credit card/student loans, nothing to see here...
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Max Powers at http://ConsumerFight.com, 6 Nov 2007 @ 1:26pm

It's Up to Our Kids
The old standard of how Washington works must die. I too agree that the kids of today could make true change if they want to.

Index cards? WTF. No oversight? WTF. Automatic abuse when you know that nobody is watching over your shoulder.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2007 @ 1:33pm

Re: Taking the bait...
this has nothing to do with protecting interests; that would be a defensive position. this is very aggressive - infact usualy when this government talks defensive language it means aggression.
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Overcast, 6 Nov 2007 @ 1:45pm

No Surprise really..

Funny thing is - they can get what they want from ISP's - and the ISP isn't allowed to talk about it. Ok, I see not talking about specifics - but what about in general?

Seems real shady to me.

I don't understand the warrant-less searches unless they are just a means of taking more rights from the citizens. After all - what judge wouldn't ok a warrant for a suspected terrorist?

"You have nothing to fear, if you have done nothing wrong."

And that's the biggest BS excuse for being lazy and not worrying about constitutional rights. After all: IT IS THE LAW THAT THEY HAVE TO HAVE A WARRANT.

Doing nothing, doing something, something to worry about, nothing to worry about - IT IS THE LAW that they have to obtain a warrant *if* they have probable cause.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

What part of that don't some people understand? Or are the new laws more important than the laws used in the founding of this nation, but OBVIOUSLY they are meaningless to some people.

To that: in FACT the Government IS breaking the law - and they still don't have anything to worry about. They go on preaching to me about 'doing nothing wrong' while they stomp and piss all over the constitution.

But I guess - I'm the horrible person - the 'nonconforming' person who thinks the constitution actually means something.

Sorry I was so very wrong! The Patriot Act has proven to protect us!! Unlike that ratty ol' Constitution - what good has that ever done anyone?

"They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

But that's ok - I guess we'll all get what's coming to us eventually. Sadly, it seems most people agree with this viewpoint....
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Brother Jonathan, 6 Nov 2007 @ 1:57pm

coup d'état
coup d'é·tat (kū' dā-tä') n., pl. coups d'état (kū') or coup d'états (dā-täz'). The sudden overthrow of a government by a usually small group of persons in or previously in positions of authority. ANY QUESTIONS?
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kelleyearl, 6 Nov 2007 @ 2:18pm

appeal
The only thing that will stop this from continuing is: VOTE them out of office and make one constitutional addmenment vote for your chosen vice president not one chosen by the proesident and then make sure that the congress understands that you will not support there doing wrong to the people. m People on sites like this need to quit making like of it and start doing something useful. Anonymous Coward are you listening?
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Jomama Man, 6 Nov 2007 @ 2:24pm

Nothing to fear
"You have nothing to fear, if you have done nothing wrong."
See Daniel Solvoe's excellent analysis of this bogus statement and its ilk at http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=998565#PaperDownload

Essentially this statement makes the erroneous assumption that privacy is only for hiding wrongdoing.
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Lucretious, 6 Nov 2007 @ 2:57pm

It's Unfortunate
The thing is I think most rational people can understand WHY it was implemented and how there could be some very good reasons to use it but like many aspects of this administration, they've co-opted what is a very special circumstance emergency law into a shield to protect them from unconstitutional behavior. It shouldn't even have to be addressed. It is/was an important tool that will now have to be dropped (IMO) in order to protect constitutional abuses from a group of old psychopaths.
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A. L. Flanagan, 6 Nov 2007 @ 3:00pm

Gag Order
To me it seems that the gag order is even more dangerous than the letters themselves. The right of the accused to a public defense is the greatest preventer of prosecutorial abuses. If the next administration doesn't undo these concerted attacks on the Constitution, Vietnam will look like a minor civil disagreement.
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T.J., 6 Nov 2007 @ 3:05pm

Power corrupts.

Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely.
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pRtkL xLr8r, 6 Nov 2007 @ 3:24pm

It seems the Constitution...
...was also written on those index cards, and with the same reckless abandon, was lost in the shuffle as well.

But in the end, there will always be a resistance. You will never be able to track communication that is to be kept secret, as it flows from one's mouth to another's ear, from one underground movement to the next.

When things go out of hand, and people have had enough, that is when a community of the same mindset truly comes together, speaks out, and acts accordingly.

It was only a few hundred years ago when we did the same - against England.

Let us hope that our government has enough foresight to know this is truly a possibility; it is our one true check in a system of many unbalances.
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Huh?, 6 Nov 2007 @ 3:29pm

Re: Usual Rant ver. 1
Did i miss something, Big Bro is watching your every move. No, dont do that, its an invastion of privacy, thank god no one is going to care for Global Warming so it can do its job and we can start again. We have become such a crappy race. Everyone has done something wrong.
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Anthony, 6 Nov 2007 @ 3:30pm

Re:
I support you all the way. And im woried for my generation. Im 15 now. Please pray that the WORLD will figure this out.
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Anthony, 6 Nov 2007 @ 3:32pm

Re: It's Up to Our Kids
Thank you (post #7 above)
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2007 @ 4:10pm

Re: Bad government
What does voting have to do with it? we're always stuck with choosing a turd sandwich or crap flinging monkey, so either choice just leaves you covered in Shit.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2007 @ 4:27pm

well hell, i need a job with the FBI, all types of info there...not even trackable, perfect

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Me Personally, 6 Nov 2007 @ 4:39pm

I really think
We should just burn it down and rebuild it from the ground up. And hopefully we will keep these dumbasses our of our elected positions. Kind of like how the whole country was thinking that we got scammed on the 2000 elections but no one had the balls to actually do anything about it.. And now look at us and what we have become... Time to buy a boat is what I'm seeing.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2007 @ 4:56pm

Re: Bad government
"quit hiring corrupt officials"

It's the politicians, not the bureaucrats (officials).

If they are in office - vote them out - every time. ONCE AND DONE!
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Nov 2007 @ 5:04pm

Blame the present administration all you want to. I certainly do.

BUT they got elected twice. (please don't go off on that!)

You wouldn't believe the immense percentage of our population that still believes in them, and who go red in the face at the mere hint of disagreement.
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Tagbert, 7 Nov 2007 @ 7:12am

Interesting that this article runs just after another article "Congress Not At All Pleased With Yahoo's Explanation In Chinese Dissident Case" where congress is criticizing an ISP for handing over user information to an authoritarian government.
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burt, 1 Jun 2008 @ 8:51am

while you were sleeping
There are many laws on the books that go way back that most everyone dosent know about that are unconstituitional and undermine your freedoms, they were cunningly crafted and quietly slipped into the books , the patriot act is just the latest, Even the name Patriot act reeks of deception.... These Laws are quietly pressured into the system then one day they are established and before you know it, whala!! you are living in a police state..Tyrant have no new schemes, freedom demands eternal vidulence.. The patriot act need to be dragged out into the sunshine and a stake driven thru it. Speak up now or forever hold your peace.. (literally)
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Oct 2009 @ 7:19am

Re: Nothing to fear
Thanks for the link Mate
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