AT&T Says It Will Cut Off P2P Wireless Users; But What About Pandora Users?

from the be-careful-on-that-iPhone dept

Tue, Jul 29th 2008 3:43pm — Mike Masnick

While those who like to claim that the US broadband market is more competitive than it really is like to point to the rise of 3G wireless networks as proof, they almost always ignore the fact that those 3G networks come with insanely restrictive terms of service, that allow the providers to cut users off for almost any activity outside of email or web browsing. For example, using such a service for video and music has been prohibited in some terms of service. Sprint was the most open with their 3G wireless until recently.

Now AT&T is admitting that if it discovers users of its wireless broadband 3G service are making use of P2P apps, it will cut them off completely, and claims that it makes this clear in the terms of service. It hasn't happened yet, but this bit of data will supposedly be used by a dissenting FCC commissioner this week to show that Comcast's traffic shaping is pretty tame compared to other "rules" out there on network usage (ignoring the very different nature of the networks in question, of course).

This raises a number of questions: If AT&T's biggest concern about P2P file sharing apps is clogging its 3G wireless network, why does it allow streaming apps to run on the iPhone? For example, one of the most popular apps on the iPhone is Pandora, whose customized streaming radio offering is super popular (and appears to work quite well). So is AT&T going to cut off users of one of the most popular apps on the iPhone? And how will AT&T respond when someone (inevitably, if they haven't already done so) develops an iPhone app for P2P file sharing as well? This really just seems like AT&T slipping an excuse into the terms of service to cut off anyone they don't like -- but in the long run it may backfire as people get pissed off at AT&T for limiting what new devices like the iPhone can do.

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Filed Under: network usage, p2p, users, wireless
Companies: at&t, pandora

56 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2008 @ 4:08pm

Get an iphone, If your going to talk about downloading on the device. Otherwise get islsk. Long live the pirates in the bay. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jul/29/internet.digitalmusic?gusrc=rss&feed=techno logyfull
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MLS, 29 Jul 2008 @ 4:41pm

Whatever its merits, P2P long ago became the "Me Generation" platform of choice for those simply to cheap to pay for things they use.

Sorry, but it is hard to work up much sympathy for those who loathe what AT&T may do to those using P2P.
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Jason, 29 Jul 2008 @ 4:49pm

Re:
....from the 'doesn't-understand-the-difference-between-a-network-and-it's-traffic' dept.
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DS, 29 Jul 2008 @ 4:55pm

From the "We don't want people using our network to steal other peoples IP" department.
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LTDLP, 29 Jul 2008 @ 5:13pm

Re:
MLS -> Whatever its merits, P2P long ago became the "Me Generation" platform of choice for those simply to cheap to pay for things they use.

MLS, that is kind of low even by your standards.
What about legit uses of P2P? What, there aren't any?
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Ken, 29 Jul 2008 @ 5:13pm

If you have an iPhone and use p2p apps over 3G, will AT&T terminate your account w/o charging you the early termination fee? Cool.
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me, 29 Jul 2008 @ 5:20pm

iphone apps
there will never be a p2p app on the iphones app store because apple gets to choose which apps make it to the app store and with all their ties to copyrighted material, like through itunes, it would not be in their best interest
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MLS, 29 Jul 2008 @ 5:44pm

Re: Re:
This is why I started out with "Whatever its merits,...".

P2P does have much to offer, but it has been getting a bad rap precisely because so many using it have adopted a "right this way...it's a 'free'way" mentality.
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Dan, 29 Jul 2008 @ 5:55pm

AT&T GOD complex
AT&T: "we are GOD,we own you". They can siphon all your voice and IP comm illegally, then BUY congressional immunity, but if you dare download a tune they will castrate you. Is it any surprise their second quarter subscription number was only 46K nationally. Deal with the devil and you go to hell.
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Mike (profile), 29 Jul 2008 @ 6:02pm

Re:
Sorry, but it is hard to work up much sympathy for those who loathe what AT&T may do to those using P2P.

Yeah, those awful P2P apps like Skype and SETI@Home and Folding@Home.

Evil, evil things.

But, as per usual, MLS is talking about the wrong thing in his weak attempt at misdirection. The explanation given has nothing to do with what people are doing with P2P, but the bandwidth used.

But why should that stop MLS from moralizing, even after it's been pointed out to him, in great detail, why his moralizing is misplaced.

If you honestly think that P2P = "steals stuff" then you have no clue what P2P is.
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Nick, 29 Jul 2008 @ 6:22pm

p2p on wireless networks
Nobody seems to ever grasp the point that p2p applications, no matter what you do with them, just have an intrinsically negative impact on the functionality and performance of *any* distribution type wireless network.
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MLS, 29 Jul 2008 @ 6:25pm

Re: Re:
Since I did note there are merits to P2P, and since you happened to mention some examples, perhaps you have some research that provides some form of evidentiary proof that P2P is primarily being used for purposes other than unlawful file sharing.
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Mike (profile), 29 Jul 2008 @ 6:36pm

Re: Re: Re:
Since I did note there are merits to P2P, and since you happened to mention some examples, perhaps you have some research that provides some form of evidentiary proof that P2P is primarily being used for purposes other than unlawful file sharing.

Nice way of avoiding the point: AT&T is not doing this because of legal reasons, but for network management. To say that it's okay for them to do things for one reason, when they're clearing doing them for another, you are simply rationalizing your own questionable morality. Oh, wait, that's what you accuse everyone you disagree with of doing.

When we point out economic rationales for things, you get uptight in arguing morality. When we point out that your moral argument doesn't make sense, you go back to "law and order." And here, where AT&T is claiming technical reasons, you go back to morality.

The cognitive dissonance is strong with you, MLS.
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Richard L Sharp, 29 Jul 2008 @ 6:41pm

AT&T
I'll huff and puff and blooow your house down!
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MLS, 29 Jul 2008 @ 6:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Seriously, are there any studies you are aware of that provide some insight and breakdown into how P2P is being used? News articles and anecdotal references suggest illegal file sharing. You note some laudable uses. I am simply curious if anyone has done a study to try and figure out what is really happening?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jul 2008 @ 6:45pm

AT&T has a super chummy friendship with the FCC, the Gwinnett County Water Board and the company that makes jumbo-sized foam #1 fingers you buy at football games.

They won't get fined.
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Mogilny, 29 Jul 2008 @ 6:52pm

Unlimited Data My *SS
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Mike (profile), 29 Jul 2008 @ 7:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Seriously, are there any studies you are aware of that provide some insight and breakdown into how P2P is being used? News articles and anecdotal references suggest illegal file sharing. You note some laudable uses. I am simply curious if anyone has done a study to try and figure out what is really happening?

I don't think anyone denies that the majority of P2P use involves file sharing.

But, again, that's totally off-topic. Why would it even matter, when that's not even what's being discussed?
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AT&T Dumptruck(SM) Service, 29 Jul 2008 @ 7:10pm

A Series of Tubes
Ted Stevens won't be around to provide expert testimony this time around.
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Wolfgang, 29 Jul 2008 @ 7:11pm

Re: Re: Re:
While it's hard to prove what it's primarily being used for, granted you should only pull the line you did when you have proof in your favor that is unbiased and from a good source, I will say that P2P has made open source more, well, open since it unloads the traffic from the projects servers and makes it cheaper to maintain when you don't use bandwith to download the apps from the sight. One case for sure is a full blown Linux distro using torrents with most moderate ones running around 500MB to 650MB for a CD install and multiple GB's in such cases as Fedora the bandwith not used for downloading from the sight dirrectly and it's rare that a connection disruption will harm the file you're downloading like when using ftp.
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Wolfgang, 29 Jul 2008 @ 7:14pm

Re: A Series of Tubes
Darn and I wanted insight from our politicians who are completely from the generation that uses the technology on an everday basis.
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annone, 29 Jul 2008 @ 7:15pm

Re: Re:
Blizzard uses game updates for WoW using torrents between users in the ingame client to help reduce bandwidth costs.

PVP Streaming video also is in the works to do the same.
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Mike (profile), 29 Jul 2008 @ 7:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Seriously, are there any studies you are aware of that provide some insight and breakdown into how P2P is being used? News articles and anecdotal references suggest illegal file sharing. You note some laudable uses. I am simply curious if anyone has done a study to try and figure out what is really happening?

And, following up on this, even you should recognize that the legal standard here is substantial non-infringing uses -- of which there are TONS.

Yet, why let that stop you when you're going to argue morality, when the law goes against you.

And why let either thing bother you when the fact is AT&T is only discussing network performance.

Same old MLS.
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MLS, 29 Jul 2008 @ 8:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I do not understand what your reference to a "legal standard" has to do with my question. Mine is no more and no less than an attempt to try and understand how P2P is being used at this point in time. You suggest the predominant use is for file sharing. All I wonder is if this is something that has been shown by empirical evidence?
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Google TiSP (BETA), 29 Jul 2008 @ 8:47pm

Poor performance
If my subdivision has poor water pressure coming from the pipes, they don't come to the neighborhood and police me for taking a 6 minute shower, nor do they give tips on boiling water for pasta or potatoes, nor do they scold me for washing the dog or tips on when to flush the toilet.

What the town does is put more pipes in to accommodate the subdivision's increase in water usage. This is what the FCC should encourage.
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Mike (profile), 29 Jul 2008 @ 10:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
All I wonder is if this is something that has been shown by empirical evidence?

Plenty of studies on that (Google is your friend). Sandvine is a biased party (they sell equipment for traffic shaping) but here you go:

http://www.xchangemag.com/hotnews/deep-packet-inspection-dpi-broadband-metering.html

"Howe ver, as a stand-alone category, P2P file sharing is still the leader at 35.5% of traffic, followed by web browsing at 32% and streaming at 18%, according to the customer research. P2P file sharing accounts for 44% of all Internet traffic, up about 4% over last year, according to the company."
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Mike Allen, 29 Jul 2008 @ 11:30pm

MLS
i really dont see what your problem is you talk as if you work for the IRAA who charge over the odds and are the real pirates as money paid dont get to artists. However thats another story. Here in the UK we have rhe BBC Iplayer (why they called it that is a mystary) millions of downloads of TV and radio programs a week all legal all P2P. It has been a great success as to anything we have 10 machines 3 servers half of the others are linux. one ibox is a experamental box we change the linux distro to whatever is the latest we then acess the distro for acessability and report our findings to subcribers via email. my point being there is a lot of P2p THAT IS USED LEGALLY. As more and more people are changing to Linux since Vista came out.
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Allen (profile), 29 Jul 2008 @ 11:44pm

P2P or excessive use?
While Robbie Jr did rather sloppily use the terms "p2p" and "p2p file sharing" in the letter, I think the key point was that their policy prohibits excessive use of bandwidth that would degrade other customers service.
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Paul, 30 Jul 2008 @ 12:51am

So, I could do what?
So, I could purchase a cheap device and sign on for a multi year recurring charge. I could then P2P till my eyes fell out, and sneak out of the contract? Didn't sprint just get nailed for early terminations that they initiated yet still charged the early termination fees? Weeeee...
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Michael Long, 30 Jul 2008 @ 2:17am

Stealing stuff...
"If you honestly think that P2P = "steals stuff" then you have no clue what P2P is."

This is true. P2P only equals about 90% "stealing stuff".

But by and large, AT&T's stance is an non-issue, as in the near future demand on it's 3G network will primarily consist of that used by iPhones, and no P2P application exists (or will exist) on of the App Store for the iPhone.

Subtract those numbers, and you're left with the paltry few using some other 3G phone or those who've jailbreaked an iPhone. And even then, given the limited storage and battery life of a mobile device, what idiot would want to run a P2P application on them anyway?
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John, 30 Jul 2008 @ 3:56am

If I had either one I'd cancel and show them whos boss!MONEY TALKS!Who are they to tell you what you can do or not?!
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Bravest343, 30 Jul 2008 @ 5:35am

I read most of the comments posted, and I came to a certain conclusion that most would perhaps consider; then again some may not because thet rely to much on their precious little toy. If history has taught us anything it is that it repeates itself. Now is the time to take action as "Consumers" and show who really is the boss by sacrificing our gadgets and terminating out of contracts. C'mon people think and use you're God given rights. Too many good men have died for our rights, and far too men and women are fighting and dying right now for us. If we unite as consumers and sacrifice just a little we will have our victory!
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Bravest343, 30 Jul 2008 @ 5:40am

P.S.- That's just the united way, and that is what this great country of our's has been built on.
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Jeremy Chone, 30 Jul 2008 @ 7:32am

Pandora
I am not sure but I think that Pandora would qualify as a traditional "bursting" (vs continuous) web application. I think that Pandora just download the current music (and perhaps the next one) and then plays it. At least, this is the way they do it on PC (I am almost certain).
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Mike Cane, 30 Jul 2008 @ 8:02am

Veoh is P2P
Veoh, a very popular video service, uses P2P tech for video downloads. However, that requires their client app, which I have doubts will ever come to the iPhone. As it is, Veoh can't be used on the iPhone because its on-screen video is all FLV, with no mp4 alternative (ala YouTube).
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DavidB, 30 Jul 2008 @ 8:16am

silly
who really CARES anyway? I mean that is TRULY impacted at this point in wireless evolution? AT&T's 3G coverage is SO miniscule it's laughable, most people (reports abound) can't even get a 3G data connection driving around New York City with an iPhone 3G! Let alone the rest of the country. And trying to do ANY p2p over EDGE would just be downright STOOPID.
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Amazing Steve, 30 Jul 2008 @ 8:24am

Re:
Oh how terrible!! Who will save us from P2P apps!!!! You cup looks a little empty loser. More Kool-Aid?
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James Evans, 30 Jul 2008 @ 8:34am

see...?
This is why I won't buy an IPhone. I don't care about P2P rules-- I just think that these phone companies are bullies, and I won't sign a contract with them. I'd rather pay more on Virgin with a pre-pay than get surprised by giant bills and weirdo rules, with cancellation fees, to boot. If IPhone gave you the chance to use any phone company-- and it should be illegal not to-- then I would consider it. But the market cannot correct bad pricing when you limit the competition.
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MLS, 30 Jul 2008 @ 8:59am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
While I had not found that one via a search, I did find others...but, as you note, each were numbers proferred by companies with a potential bias. The numbers are generally within a rough order of magnitude, but it is not clear if they are for the most part accurate.

BTW, my interest is not necessarily due to copyright infringement. I keep reading about "net neutrality" and other terms of art, so I am curious what kind of data underlies the positions being taken by persons/groups on both sides of these issues.
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Matt, 30 Jul 2008 @ 9:15am

Hmmm time to install Symtorrent on AT&T Symbian Phones

http://www.aut.bme.hu/portal/SymTorrent.aspx?lang=en
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Industry Analyst, 30 Jul 2008 @ 9:21am

yet another from the "Don't Bother Me with the Facts" dept.
Mike, did you actually CALL AT&T and ask them about the Pandora application?

Did you know that Pandora is available for other AT&T devices on its 3G network?

Did you know Pandora's streaming service operates the same as several other streaming music and video services that are offered on AT&T's WAP deck?

Do you know how much data is consumed by P2P vs. streaming designed specifically for wireless networks?

If you don't know those things, it seems pretty irresponsible to get so wound about things that you clearly don't understand.
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Mike (profile), 30 Jul 2008 @ 11:01am

Re: yet another from the "Don't Bother Me with the Facts" dept.
Mike, did you actually CALL AT&T and ask them about the Pandora application?

No, but I'm quite familiar with how Pandora works. If you're not, that would appear to be your problem.

Did you know that Pandora is available for other AT&T devices on its 3G network?

Yup. And on some phones from other carriers as well (though, not for free). The point was that it's been incredibly popular on the iPhone because it's free.

Did you know Pandora's streaming service operates the same as several other streaming music and video services that are offered on AT&T's WAP deck?

Yup. But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. The point is that AT&T is complaining about bandwidth hogs, but ignoring some of the bandwidth hogs they approve.

Do you know how much data is consumed by P2P vs. streaming designed specifically for wireless networks?

Yup. I actually do. And, yes, P2P *can* use up more bandwidth, but apps like Pandora do use up significant bandwidth.

If you don't know those things, it seems pretty irresponsible to get so wound about things that you clearly don't understand.

And if you assume I don't know these things, it seems pretty irresponsible to get so wound up about what I've written, when it's clear that you are wrong.
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ChiefY, 30 Jul 2008 @ 12:21pm

Straw Men Much
Jeez. For a guy that purports to loathe straw men arguments as much as you do (see: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Atechdirt.com+straw+men&btnG=Google+Search), this one is a real whopper.

First of all, you bring up the spectre of AT&T doing something that they haven't actually done. But beyond that, you start going multiple steps down that path, talking about how it will affect iPhone sales, etc. The fact is is that AT&T DOES allow Pandora and other similar apps on the iPhone.

Of course, Pandora isn't a P2P app, so that's a little sleight of hand right there. It may be high bandwidth, but then why does it work just fine on the old EDGE-based iPhone? It obviously doesn't tax the network much.

Beyond that you wonder whether AT&T will start banning P2P apps from the iPhone. But do you really think Apple would let such an app into the App Store? Clearly such an app would be verboten. The point there is that AT&T doesn't have to worry about invoking that issue, since Apple will do it for them.

Again, this is a pure strawman post. You've attacked AT&T for something it didn't do, and then pointed how it's stupid either way.

Another thing with your Comcast example. Yes, the networks are different so comparing one to the other on the FCC's part is silly. But AT&T is disclosing its policy in the TOS. Isn't a big issue with Comcast that they're doing things secretively without telling customers?
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Big Death Globe, 30 Jul 2008 @ 5:17pm

HUH?
This is why I won't buy an IPhone. I don't care about P2P rules-- I just think that these phone companies are bullies, and I won't sign a contract with them. I'd rather pay more on Virgin with a pre-pay than get surprised by giant bills and weirdo rules, with cancellation fees, to boot. If IPhone gave you the chance to use any phone company-- and it should be illegal not to-- then I would consider it. But the market cannot correct bad pricing when you limit the competition.

The rights to the device you refer to were negotiated on a free market basis. It makes no sense for you to claim that no selling the iPhone on every platform should be illegal, if AT&T can put forth the capital necessary to secure exclusive right to the phone, what can your issue possibly be?
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Mike (profile), 30 Jul 2008 @ 5:43pm

Re: Straw Men Much
First of all, you bring up the spectre of AT&T doing something that they haven't actually done

I was responding to what AT&T clearly stated it *would* do in response to an FCC question. I didn't bring it up out of nowhere, as you imply.

The fact is is that AT&T DOES allow Pandora and other similar apps on the iPhone.

Yes, and I'm asking why that's okay, whereas other apps are deemed bad.

Of course, Pandora isn't a P2P app, so that's a little sleight of hand right there.

Not sleight of hand. I clearly state that in the post. Or did you not read it? I note that Pandora is a streaming app, not a P2P app, and ask why AT&T is concerned about one, rather than the other, even though both consume a lot of bandwidth.

The only strawman here is you implying I said something I didn't.

Beyond that you wonder whether AT&T will start banning P2P apps from the iPhone. But do you really think Apple would let such an app into the App Store?

Perhaps you missed the point of this. OF COURSE they won't ban Pandora. That's the point. They claim they're so worried about network performance that they'll ban P2P, but then they have no problem with streaming apps, which can use up just as much bandwidth.

But AT&T is disclosing its policy in the TOS. Isn't a big issue with Comcast that they're doing things secretively without telling customers?

If that's the issue, then it's an issue for the FTC, which is concerned with truth in advertising, not the FCC.
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Lacey, 30 Jul 2008 @ 7:01pm

What is P2P?
I just wish I wasn't forced to do business with AT&T, period.
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Trevor, 31 Jul 2008 @ 12:25pm

This affects more than phones
If you have one of those AT&T 3G modems that plug into the USB port on your laptop, then this affects you. They're saying you can't use bittorrent or limewire on your own computer just because you happen to be connected to the internet through AT&T's 3G network. Remember, AT&T's 3G network is being aggressively sold as a connectivity tool for your laptop computer, not just your cell phone.
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WDD, 31 Jul 2008 @ 12:34pm

Re:
Unfortunately you are missing a large segment of the P2P market. A lot of the multimedia content is sent to the applications via P2P because it recovers well from dropped or missing packets. Netflix's download service is one such service.
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Ken Brerger, 31 Jul 2008 @ 12:36pm

Understanding P2P
ATT along with most of the carriers are dinosaurs, but everyone should understand that P2P means many things some of which can use massive amounts of bandwidth for activities of questionable legality and others use minimal bandwidth for productive purposes. In most peoples mind P2P = stealing copywrited material (and this is the case of most of the press.

To equate streaming media (with it's totally different bandwidth usage) with P2P shows a total misunderstanding of the basic concepts.
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WDD, 31 Jul 2008 @ 12:38pm

Re: Re: Re:
Using this argument none of us should be allowed to own a fire arm because many people use them for "unlawful" purposes.
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WDD, 31 Jul 2008 @ 12:49pm

We seem to have become lost in the P2P issue, when the real issue is who owns the airway? Not AT&T, they lease it from us and much of this dialog should be directed toward the FCC. Not that it will do any good, since as we have seen with the recent passing of the FISA bill the communications companies can break the law and not have to worry about getting in trouble for it. This attitude about the network comes from Edward E. Whitacre Jr. former CEO of AT&T who thought it was his.
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Nick, 31 Jul 2008 @ 12:50pm

Hah!
This is a ridiculous argument. 3G is probably most used on phones, with a smaller amount of computer users. There is nothing legitimate that you could download via P2P on your phone that you couldn't wait to do back at your computer. Furthermore, streaming music uses a tiny amount of bandwidth compared with the potentially huge use of bandwidth in a P2P program. If you're a P2P user, get a proper internet connection. Otherwise, learn to live without it.
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dude., 31 Jul 2008 @ 4:37pm

Re: iphone apps
If you have a jailbroken iphone, which the majority of iPhone users (who would be using p2p software) do, apple has no control over which apps can be used on the phone. Thats what AT&T is worried about.
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Omar Qazi, 31 Jul 2008 @ 5:24pm

Peer to peer uses a lot more bandwidth then just a simple streaming service. While Pandora downloads the song once, and plays it (perhaps 2 or 3 megabytes of bandwidth) a peer to peer service would download the song, and upload it to anyone who needs it, using an infinite amount of bandwidth given an infinite time, where maxes out at 2 or 3 megabytes a song. Big difference.
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Industry Analyst, 6 Aug 2008 @ 10:00am

Re: Re: yet another from the "Don't Bother Me with the Facts" dept.
"Mike, did you actually CALL AT&T and ask them about the Pandora application?

No, but I'm quite familiar with how Pandora works. If you're not, that would appear to be your problem."
=================================================

The problem is not that I don't understand the application but that you never bothered to get on the phone and ask AT&T what they're actually going to do about Pandora and how it affects their networks compared to P2P.

It's one thing to sit in our offices and say, "If they don't like A then they can't like B either." But a responsible analyst or a journalist could find the the people at AT&T to actually ask. Reading your stuff, Mike, is like fighting with my wife. "I know what you're thinking... " she says. You DON'T know what AT&T is thinking. But you're smart enough and connected enough to ask.

And you should.

And the fact that you are NOT asking the questions of the companies you're complaining about is what's irresponsible. And it reflects very poorly on Techdirt.
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cary ann mahony, 1 Aug 2009 @ 10:00am

At&T wireless phone service
I did not receive any instructions with this phone. I looked and was told to call support. I was then told there is not instruction manual, guide or anything I can touch that will explain all the uses or how to use some of the services offered. I feel I should at least been sold a Blackberry for what this piece of crap cost me, almost $300 when done. The rebate is in a gas card. Excuse me,rebate means cash back to me. Now the phone is off and not charging. I used to on the old slimline phone plug it in and talk. Not this one.
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