Artist Demands $500 From Guy For Using His Image As An Avatar
from the get-a-grip dept
Lots of websites let users upload their own image or avatar. Most people use photos of themselves, but others like to toss up an interesting photo or artwork. And, of course, online some of that artwork may be covered by copyright. But, still, it seems a bit harsh for an artist to send a guy a bill for $500 after discovering that his artwork was being used as an avatar on an online poker site. This seems doubly stupid. First of all, no one is going to pay $500 for artwork to use as an avatar. They'll just switch to something else. And then fewer people will see the artwork and question who created it. So, basically, all this does is stop someone from freely promoting the artist's artwork, while also pissing off someone who had clearly been a fan. How does that make sense?
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
People with avatars love to hotlink them if the site allows it (I've had to whack a few folks pulling that trick). They aren't real big on attribution.
The artist will not receive a dime either way, and that exposure is worthless without attribution. So why not tell the guy to stop? And don't tell me that attribution doesn't matter -- I recollect that Techdirt was none too pleased when folks were republishing your articles without attribution.
In any case, it's the artist's work. He gets to decide. Not you, and not some poker player. If he doesn't want it promoted, so be it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Techdirt has this right, the artist is shooting himself in the foot.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
This is where you are wrong, AC. While what you say might happen in a lot of cases, I use an Avatar that is "unique" and somewhat thought provoking. It is an artistic rendering of something. Since using my avatar, I have received a number if inquiries about where I got it from. Each and every time I'm asked I credit the author of the work, and send the artist's URL to the people who enjoy the work so that they can appreciate the artist's work even more.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
I do believe the user should have asked the artist and/or included an attribution for the avatar in his sigature or profile, but the artist's request is just flat-out ridiculous.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
A painful foot...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
That's the point. Yes, the artist gets to decide what his work is used for. He doesn't get to bitch about how nobody's buying his work if he only chooses to advertise it in the way people want it.
Or, another way to look at it: unless the person using the avatar is trying to pass it off as his own work, who's losing out? The artist isn't, since people are obviously unfamiliar enough with his work to not know it's just an avatar. Yes, attribution is nice, but just because it's not happening directly, doesn't mean it's not happening.
"Any response would read "It's just something I ganked a few months ago. Not sure where I got it."
People with avatars love to hotlink them if the site allows it (I've had to whack a few folks pulling that trick). They aren't real big on attribution."
Do you realise that you're actually doing yourself a disservice here? If somebody has a cool image posted and I ask them where they got it, if the answers' "I dunno" then the first thing I do is right click the image and see where it's pointing. If you disable hotlinking, all you're doing is force people to rehost somewhere unrelated to you, and the person asking will never find out who made it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Attribution?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
A gold-rush attitude
As long as we view the 'toobs as a money maker first and all other things after, then you are going to find people wanting their chunk of the nugget.
I'm all for making a buck, but I don't see why anyone is surprised when Person A wants Person B to pay up to use their stuff. "Yer jumpin' mah claim, boy!"
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Isn't that the point?
Why is it these "creative" types can't understand the value of promotion? Most people don't rush out to buy something they've never seen . . .
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Yes actually. I've contacted people who's avatars I've liked in the past, and they've passed on info. I did that recently on Twitter.
The artist will not receive a dime either way, and that exposure is worthless without attribution.
I disagree. Even if your scenario is correct, and the guy doesn't remember, now people know what to look for, and they're likely to spot that artist's work elsewhere, remembering how cool it was.
I recollect that Techdirt was none too pleased when folks were republishing your articles without attribution.
You recollect entirely wrong. We encourage it.
http://www.techdirt.com/article.php?sid=20070412/183135#c612
In any case, it's the artist's work. He gets to decide. Not you, and not some poker player. If he doesn't want it promoted, so be it.
We can, and will, express our opinion.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Me and him, alone, in a room, he will cry and i will show him my finger.
I'm not ashamed, and its no crime. End of story.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Whole bunch of people looking at his artwork because of this story ^^
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Just to be an arse
TAKASHI AVATAR
Of course, I imagine he would get banned for using it. But that's his risk to take.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Just to be an arse
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
People "liberate" things online all the time and do as they wish with it.
What I personally don't understand though is why is IP/music/artwork ownership is considered so much of a bad thing. It would be like if I went to your boss and claimed to work the time on your timesheet and thereby took your pay in place of you getting the paycheck. You did the work, and did not get paid, and instead someone else is getting the benefit of your work. But wait, that is bad when a band or artist or software company does the same thing.
Oh well, it's just $500 for an avitar.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
There's two things at work here. First of all is the overreaching "protection" often demanded by artists, which is usually counterproductive. that's what's being criticised here - by trying to force the artwork to only be used in the way that the artist desires, they're restricting the ways in which people can be exposed to (and thus be inspired to pay for) the artwork.
The second thing is that your "timesheet" example is utterly inappropriate. There's much discussion here about infinite vs. finite goods - read up on it if you need to understand it. The work that's recorded on your timesheet is a finite, one-off deal - if you get paid by the hour, that's it, you don't get any more. However, if you spend that time creating a piece of art - be it a program, song, image, whatever - then you usually end up with both a finite good (your talent/time spent creating the piece) and an infinite good (the resulting digital file). The discussion here is usually on how to leverage the infinite good to *make money* from the finite good. The feeling is that the artist above was wrong because they were not losing money by the player having the avatar (nobody's going to look at the avatar instead of paying money for a copy, for example), but they could have gained by people seeing the image and wishing to obtain it.
That's the bottom line here. By restricting how a person uses their artwork, the artist gains some artistic control but lose a potential method of exposing new customers to their product. There's nothing wrong with the per se, but these people have a habit of also turning around and claiming that they're losing money after they do these things. They just can't have it both ways.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Dog-In-The-Manger Business Model
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: The Dog-In-The-Manger Business Model
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Ha! I love it. First you insist that we got angry about people copying our stuff, and used it as a "gotcha." Then we point out that you're wrong, and rather than admitting it, your response is this?
What I personally don't understand though is why is IP/music/artwork ownership is considered so much of a bad thing.
We're pointing out how the use of it harms the content creator themselves.
It would be like if I went to your boss and claimed to work the time on your timesheet and thereby took your pay in place of you getting the paycheck
No. Actually. That's something entirely different.
Please learn the difference between scarce and infinite goods. Otherwise this discussion is pointless.
You did the work, and did not get paid, and instead someone else is getting the benefit of your work.
All that means is you chose a bad business model. I'm not sure why you prefer blaming others for your own choices, but it's a shame that this seems to be so common in the US. Take a little responsibility for your own choices.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: The Dog-In-The-Manger Business Model
Huh? Let's see. You visited this website, "using" my intellectual property without me getting paid. Is that unacceptable?
How about fair use? That's unacceptable?
The idea that such usage could lead to future revenue opportunities is about as attractive as the idea that maggots could possibly have any benefit in cleaning septic wounds--even if it's true, it's just too icky to contemplate.
Really? You do realize that a significant percentage of business models have at least some component of giving away something for free on the expectation of gaining future revenue.
Apparently free samples are as icky as maggots to you?
Yikes.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: The Dog-In-The-Manger Business Model
Noob
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: The Dog-In-The-Manger Business Model
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: The Dog-In-The-Manger Business Model
Our cars are a finite good. If you borrow it, even returning it with no harm and refilling the gas tank for us, we can NOT use the car while you have it.
This was a little avatar picture. The artist still had his original. Everybody else still had their copies or posters or what have you at the same time. They were not deprived of it at all.
So your analogy is flawed, as are so many made by people who do not understand the difference between a finite good and an infinite good.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Probably is
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Looks like the 'artist' ganked a TeleTubbie image
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Probably is
I have coded minor pieces of software for open source. I have made many other small programs just to entertain myself or expand my knowledge. If somebody copied (it is not borrowing since I still have my copy) it and used it, and it spread, it would sooner or later be tracked back to me. I would be delighted. Free publicity for me.
I am sorry you do not see how that works. I do not NEED to be paid for every little thing. Greed does not run my life (like it appears it does this artists). I have a business model that works perfectly fine. I am programming for a company, and they are paying me for my time to create the program. What this author should be doing, is simply asking for attribution, not for money. Now he just seems like a jerk.
So, before you continue, stop acting like an infinite good is so similar to an infinite good, it just makes you appear ignorant. And you seem to have the manners and intelligence that you shouldn't need to appear that way over this topic.
Yah, people could ask for permission, but the entire world is not going to instantaneously develop an awesome set of manners just because you or that artist are upset about it.
Not everybody on this planet will always be nice to you. You have to learn to deal with it or life is going to be pretty rough on you.
Just remember:
The world is round, it has no point.
And
Don't take life too seriously, you'll never escape it alive anyways.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
"exposure" doesn't pay the bills
When someone uses one of my images without compensating me, they get the benefit of my work, my labor, my equipment (I have many thousands of dollars invested in my equipment to produce my art), and they are stealing my IP. There is zero value to "getting credit" for letting others use your work for free in 99.99% of cases. My landlord won't accept "attribution" for rent, my landlord wants good old-fashioned dollars. If you want to use my work, pay me good old-fashioned dollars for it so I can pay my rent!
I've given permission to use my work for free in the past, but it NEVER led to paid work - just more requests to use my work for free!
If your car is just sitting there and you aren't using it, do you mind if I just take it (without your permission) and drive it around for a while? No? You call that theft? Why, you weren't using it? Or what if I come in and watch TV in your house while you are off at work. No? You call that B&E? Why? Your house was just sitting empty, it didn't harm you that I sat in your couch for a while... Funny, how when it's YOUR stuff you don't want to let strangers use your stuff for free and without asking, but you are more than happy to use my stuff for free.
This type of selfish thinking (your stuff is yours and I can't use it, but my stuff is OK for you to use for free) is going to be the ruin of the country.
Copyright laws need to be revamped. Copyright should expire MUCH sooner than it does now, BUT it should also be better protected against unauthorized use. We need an ASCAP way for people to pay for use of others art, so you can just pay in and then use art for your avatar, for your personal website, etc., and the artists who produce art can pay their rent. People gladly pay a few bucks for a ring tone, why not for an avatar? If you are too cheap to pay to use that avatar, find one that the artist GIVES PERMISSION to use for free, or make your own.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
If he's worried about paying for hotlink bandwidth, he should replace the file with something goatse-inspired. or just a screed against hotlinking or something like that to make the ganker look incompetent.
cause it's real funny when your cool little avatar turns into "I stole this image from..."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Exposure DEFINITELY, WITHOUT ANY ARGUMENT, is the best way to get your work in the hands and eyes of the people who DO pay for content. If they don't know you, they can't commission work from you.
The car and house analogies illustrate your complete lack of understanding of scarce/infinite goods, that's ok- you aren't an economist, you're an artist... but read up on it a little before taking a negative stance towards the way things will certainly be working in the next ten years as the 'net matures further.
And the people who pay $3 for a ringtone just haven't figured out that it takes about 5 minutes to make your own out of any clip you want to use. There will always be a market for providing items and services to the busy/lazy people who can't be bothered to do something for themselves. It doesn't have any bearing on the issue at hand.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Just like anybody who thinks advertising is worth anything to the businessperson obviously isn't a businessperson.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Brilliant!
[ link to this | view in thread ]