eBay Has To Turn Over Info On Canadian PowerSellers
from the can't-get-off-that-easy dept
Michael Geist points us to the news that a Canadian court has told eBay Canada that it needs to cough up info on Canadian PowerSellers. The case involves attempts by the Canadian government to determine if eBay PowerSellers are underreporting earnings on their taxes. Canadian tax officials had asked eBay Canada to hand over data on various Canadian PowerSellers, but the company refused, noting that the info was actually held by eBay in the US, and thus the data was not subject to the Canada Revenue Agency's jurisdiction. The court disagreed, noting that eBay Canada had easy access to the data at a "click of the mouse." For the most part, this does make sense, though it does raise some questions about jurisdictions. Perhaps this is a special case, due to the close relationship between eBay and eBay Canada, but it still is a bit worrisome that a Canadian court would rule that info on an American server is subject to Canadian laws. You could see that coming back up in a bad way in the future.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: canada, jurisdiction, powersellers, us
Companies: ebay
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Turnabout is fair play
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I've always said ...
Anyway, with the way eBay is going, it'll soon be out of the garage sale business and into the Amazon-like e-commerce business.
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Re: I've always said ...
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and regardless of were to sale is being done (buyer in USA India, France or where ever) as per Canadian law the revenue from those transactions are subject to Canadian Tax (think of it as an export business).
with that said I still see Mikes point about the troublesome issue being raised about jurisdiction, it also makes me wonder when various customs agencies will start requiring buyers to declare the goods they get from ebay (or other purchases over the internet).
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Re:
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Juisdiction
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Re: Juisdiction
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Re: Re: Juisdiction
What a delightfully innocent point of view!
For fun (since you are an elf) consider the following facts:
1. PIPEDA (Canada's Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act) obliges eBay Canada to
"obtain your consent when they collect, use or disclose your personal information"
as well as
"destroy, erase or make anonymous personal information about you that it no longer needs in order to fulfil the purpose for which it was collected".
2. Under Canadian law, government agencies have no inherent or statutory "rights to data."
3. A verbal conversation between two people, held with a reasonable expectation of privacy (not in a public place), is not automatically available to Canadian law enforcement, or Crown prosecutors, or any other government agency. It requires consent form one of the two parties, or an order from a court ith proper jurisdiction.
I'm just sayin'.
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Re: Re: Re: Juisdiction
Let's look.
1. PIPEDA (Canada's Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act) obliges eBay Canada to
"obtain your consent when they collect, use or disclose your personal information"
eBay did that or you would not be a "powerseller". Read the license.
as well as
"destroy, erase or make anonymous personal information about you that it no longer needs in order to fulfil the purpose for which it was collected".
Might be applicable - I'm not a lawyer.
2. Under Canadian law, government agencies have no inherent or statutory "rights to data."
Really? You mean my employer is not required to send my pay data to the government? Banks don't have to report my interest earnings?
3. A verbal conversation between two people, held with a reasonable expectation of privacy (not in a public place), is not automatically available to Canadian law enforcement, or Crown prosecutors, or any other government agency. It requires consent form one of the two parties, or an order from a court ith proper jurisdiction.
There is no reasonable expectation of privacy here - the transactions are open to all to see. Just look at the powersellers history.
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Re: Re: Re: Juisdiction
That the actual ebay sellers have not provided the government with the required information sua sponte is sufficient cause for their tax agency to press for discovery.
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@Chief Elf... Re: Juisdiction
Stored in RAM? Farmed out? eBay is a US company...there is no farming out. So now anything that you access from a computer in Canada is now Canadian? Where the data is OWNED is relevant. If the data can't be received from Canadian citizens then I think you are out of luck and it's not eBay's job to get involved in those issues. Even if eBay gives them sale information it doesn't have profit information and it doesn't have taxable sales information.
If I were eBay I wouldn't provide that stray bullet either.
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Re: @Chief Elf... Re: Juisdiction
Same goes for eBay Canada. For that (sub)company to claim that it operates without any data ("it is held by eBay US") is at best a legal loophole, but more likely verging on contempt.
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Re: Juisdiction
Under your wonderful Patriot Act (and a number of other statutes), data held on servers outside the US by related are subject to US court jurisdictions. And in some cases, even physical records have been deemed subject to US jurisdiction.
These can be arms-length companies (not subsidiaries) and only related through a parent corporation. Only one of the companies needs to be in the US before ALL its business records can be subject to the US data sweeping (and don't think it hasn't been used... it definitely has).
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are they
http://techdirt.com/articles/20081114/1457012833.shtml
when will we elect the first world government and president!!!
there appears now no such thing as a national boundary when it comes to courts.
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eBay has a Canadian presents and as such eBay Canda is subject to Canadian law including court ruling demanding what ever Canadian law allows under Canadian law.
What would be real interesting would be if eBay did not have a Canadian presents and as such was not subject to Canadian law. No wait that is not correct either as the US is extraditing a UK subject who has never been in the US from the UK for breaking in to a Pentagon computer system so eBay would be just as much liable.
Under the concept of equal rights one country would have the same rights as any other country.
Under the concept of equal protection under the US Constitution for US citizens US Citizens are not subject to foreign courts inside the US ie this means that a US citizen is not subject to German court for actions occurring inside the US. Would some one please tell this to the Germans who had a US citizen arrested in Denmark and jailed in Germany for having Nazi information and publications on a US website housed in the US.
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Re:
Where the data is held is irrelevant. eBay is a party to the transaction involving the Canadians. Hell, potentially some international trade laws cover the transactions.
A lot of stupid stuff happens between countries and law enforcement. Everyone is afraid to hurt anyone's feelings or wants their own favor in return so stuff happens that probably shouldn't without people thinking about it. It doesn't help that the laws are all different in different companies.
But as an American I don't see what the issue is here. Tax records are powerful records for sure, but here you basically have a company with a Canadian presence seemingly trying to hide information from what, to me, seems a reasonable request.
It makes you wonder just what eBay is hiding. I don't buy that they're looking out for the customer as their actions in other areas (PayPal) suggest that isn't their first thought.
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Re:
Personally I think that ebay canada is in the wrong, they operate in canada and for their income reporting they have to have all of the information about canadian transactions to keep a paper trail on where the money came from.
It doesn't matter if the server is hosted in the US, it's accessible by ebay canada and has information pertaining to their business. That makes it under canadian authority when requested by a court.
And who doubts that the US government would issue an order to have the information handed over anyway?
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On the flip side...
So are we suggesting that in a global economy that US companies specifically set themselves up to not be eligible to host data from other countries?
I'm not suggesting that companies that have servers in the US should automatically cough up data upon request. But I am suggesting that the idea is not as simple as "the servers are in the US so only fall under US law".
If I was operating a business outside the US and wanted my data hosted (don't want to have IT overhead), then I know need to worry how my data may not fall under my own country's business laws? Seems like a sure way to ensure the US gets overlooked by any bank, insurance company, or practically any serious business as a potential outsourcing of IT infrastructure.
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um...
Nope. The activity should be governed and its pretty easy to see where the income taxes should be levied. The country of residence of the person making the money. I mean we're not talking about taxes and duties which are already thrown on and in huge numbers I might add. This is strictly for those operating businesses to pay their fair share of taxes in the same way anyone else does. Doesn't seem complicated to me. The data just tells the gov how much is owed.
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Just change the law...
The advantage of being a government is that you don't care how the company does it - you just mandate that they do!
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Tricky Issue Both Ways
The practice of setting up servers in the US for services in other countries is a ticking time bomb. Although I live in Canada, my email, blog and web pages are all on US servers. This is inherently faulty because it subjects me to 4 sets of laws. US, California, Canada and Ontario. To the extent these laws are contradictory, its my problem. Even though I'm posting Canadian content in Canada for a Canadian audience, I'm liable to DMCA take-downs. I could get a take-down for material that is public domain in Canada, but not in the US.
The point is that tech companies have played the jurisdictional card when it suits. They can't complain when it comes back to haunt them.
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No jurisdictional issue
Courts: ebay Canada you are hereby ordered to produce X documents including electronically recorded information regarding X.
EC: Well those documents are on US-based servers, and you can't force anyone in the US to do anything.
Courts: Yes, well we don't care if they give you the information or not, YOU have to get it to us.
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Ironic isn't it that Oil Companies can sell physical product anywhere on planet earth and just ignore governmental taxation on profits but 'garage-sale Ebay' is somehow fair game?!
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instylewithbebe SHILLING ACTIVITY TO THE MAX
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EXPOSING THE SNEAKS
THEY DID THROW ME OFF BUT NOT AFTER I TURNED THE TABLES ON THEM WHEN THEY TRIED TO ROB ME. I GOT THEM 1ST.
IT IS THE DUTY OF EVERY EXISTING SELLER & BUYER ON THIS LOW DOWN SIDEWINDER SITE TO DO SO. AT LEAST A SIDEWINDER WILL BITE YOU OUT OF SELF DEFENSE BUT AN EBAY STAFF SNAKE WILL BITE FOR THE SADISTIC PLEASURE OF IT.
YOU ARE VERY EVIL AND I ONCE PREDICTED EBAY WILL FALL. MY NEXT PREDICTION FOR THIS FACELESS CORPARATE MONSTER WILL BE IN THE COURTS.
THE SINS OF EBAY AS FOLLOWS
DO A SEARCH FOR QUOTE AUCTIONS, TEST AUCTIONS, SEE HOW MANY THOUSANDS ARE BEING LISTED DAILY.
EBAY IS INFLATING THEIR STATS WITH THESE BOGUS LISTINGS .WHY? SO THE STOCKHOLDERS DON'T GO POSTAL. THIS IS ILLEGAL. WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMAN & US STATE ATTORNEY .
I REPEAT GET THE HELL OUT OF THAT THAT BLACK HOLE THEY SYSTEMICALLY CREATED TO STICK IT UP OUR KAZOOS. THERE ARE OTHER SITES.. I JOINED BANANZALE AND I'M NOT DOING BAD BUT IT WILL BOOM. AS SOON AS THINGS GET BETTER. SO LIST UP AND WAIT FOR THAT DAY. THERE ARE MANY OLA SITES THAT WILL BE AS GOOD I'M SURE.
DIE EBAY DIE. I WANT TO WATCH YOU SUFFER. NOT YOU HONEST PEOPLE. I LOVE YOU GUYS AND MEAN THAT. (JAMES THE JUST)
— james
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Re: EXPOSING THE SNEAKS
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UK SELLERS BALTICAMBERWORLD
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INSTYLEWITHBEBE DOES SHILL ON EBAY
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