Old Electronics Kit Manuals Forced Offline Thanks To Copyright
from the can't-learn-unless-you-pay dept
If you're unfamiliar with the important history of Heathkit and its popular electronics and computer "kits," it's worth reading the Wikipedia entry on Heathkit to get some background. The company and its products were an important part of the post-WWII "tinkerers" era. However, one of our readers, Joseph Durnal, just discovered something rather disturbing. Even though the company stopped making and selling kits back in 1992, it apparently just sold the copyrights on its old manuals to another company, which is going around forcing any old manuals offline and demanding people buy them instead:On October 30, 2008, Data Professionals of Pleasanton, CA purchased the Intellectual property of the Heathkit legacy products from Heathkit in Benton Harbor, Michigan. This rights to these legacy products also includes the copyright. All free manuals have been removed from this site in compliance with copyright laws.So, now, anyone still playing around with decades old Heathkit products can't look online for some information from a missing manual, but instead is expected to pay up for a reprint.
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Filed Under: copyright, electronics kits, manuals
Companies: data professionals, heathkit
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On the plus side...
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Re: On the plus side...
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Re: On the plus side...
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I still have some ...
Sorry state we are in for sure.
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Sounds fair to me.
In the past, I have gladly ponied up a few bucks for manuals for cameras or printers that I've bought used, without feeling ripped off. It's information, and if someone wants it, it has a value.
There's a whole (illegal) industry out there (mostly home businesses) selling photocopies of any manual you can think of. The buyers in this story are doing the same thing, but within the law.
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Re: Sounds fair to me.
Um, the might of the state enforcing an artificial monopoly? Pretty much the exact opposite of captalism, actually.
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Re: Re: Sounds fair to me.
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Re: Sounds fair to me.
Vincent Clement wrote:
Fair enough. Except that Capitalism is supposed to be about the operation of free markets. There's a difference between a monopoly that might arise through natural conditions, and one that is artificially propped up by legal regulation by Governments. "Intellectual property" is entirely a product of Government regulation.
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Re: Re: Sounds fair to me.
More broadly, property is entirely a product of Government regulation.
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Re: Re: Re: Sounds fair to me.
No, it isn't. The concept of property is perfectly capable of existing outside the bounds of government regulation. While it may not be as refined or as civilized without such regulation, it still exists.
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Re: Sounds fair to me.
DanC wrote:
As confirmed by the old adage: “possession is nine-tenths of the law”.
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Re: Re: Sounds fair to me.
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Re: Re: Sounds fair to me.
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Re: Sounds fair to me.
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Re: Sounds fair to me.
The courts are of the view that rights gained under the Copyright Law may be abandoned. Abandonment of such rights, however, must be manifested by some overt act indicative of a purpose to surrender the rights and allow the public to copy. [Hampton v. Paramount Pictures Corp., 279 F.2d 100 (9th Cir. Cal. 1960)]
From USLegal.com
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That's Me
Thanks for posting! 73 de Joseph Durnal
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Copyright on Robbery
Right! Many of these manuals were 'free' - now they cost significant $. Do they provide anything else? No, there's no links for any 'real' support. Thanks for the support! Maybe it's a benefit that the list looks pretty extensive.
(These guys might be thinking of running for congress - they have the right mindset methinks.)
My suggestion - don't tell ANYONE who you are - your potential customers will flee! Ah well maybe no chance of that - there's not even a customer support contact if an order goes bad or something!
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Re: Copyright on Robbery
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I wonder whether the copyrights transferred ...
I wonder whether Heathkit and Data Professionals jumped through those hoops. I'm not saying they didn't. Just wondering.
I wonder whether there is any inexpensive way (not a lawsuit) to find out.
And if they didn't do the copyright transfer correctly, I wonder whether Heathkit would be cooperative if Data Professionals now asks them to make the transfer.
Lot's of wondering.
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Re: I wonder whether the copyrights transferred ...
The guy did pay $5,000 dollars for the copyrights, at least according to the PDF (use Photoshop to enhance the blocked out "purchase price" clause.)
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Re:
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re:
Hey, it's a hobby for me, not a business. you want my content, deal with it.
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Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Manual Purchase from Data Professionals
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Re: Re: Manual Purchase from Data Professionals
If anyone happens to have a copy of the construction manual for the kit version of the Heathkit TC-3 Tube Checker, I would be happy to purchase a copy of it. You may contact me via email - gdaniel11@columbus.rr.com and please put TC-e in the subject line so I don't delete it.
Thanks all
Gerald
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Re: Re: Re: Manual Purchase from Data Professionals
It boils down to this - whether you like the copyright laws or not, or if you think Don has the rights or not - It doesn't matter!! If you need a manual and someone has a copy of it to help you accomplish a repair, it is worth a reasonable fee to get a copy of it. The fee of $15 for the manual is worth it to me. Considering he had to search his files, make a copy, provide an envelope, and finally mail it (which costs postage) was well worth the price for his time, and, he sent me the wired version copy and now the kit version copy. (2 versions for $15 - cheaper than most pay-for on-line manuals!!)
Thanks Don!!
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Look a little deeper?
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striesand
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Failure Monopoly
'The monopoly prices paid by the buyers are still lower than the total cost of production.... The monopoly gains of the firm are so small that they do not make the total venture appear a good investment. It remains malinvestment. It is precisely this fact that constitutes the monopolistic position of the firm. No outsider wants to enter its field of entrepreneurial activity because the production ... results in losses.'
Source: 'Human Action' by Ludwig von Mises (http://mises.org/humanaction/chap16sec6.asp)
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Heathkit Manuals
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AA-100 and AJ-60
Anyone want to really test their "support" ? :D
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-
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Another Offshore Business Opportunity Created Thereby
Once something is out there for free, it is too hard to take it back. Besides, Heathkits are good for only two things nowdays:
1. Collectors use them to hold down the table cloths on their display tables.
2. Boat owners use them as anchors.
It's hard to sell a manual to either collectors or boat owners. This guy's business plan is not very well thought out.
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I'm of two minds about this...
OTOH, this is probably some newly un-employed guy spending a fair chunk of his savings to have a little ongoing income in a very small niche market.
The prices are not particularly onerous, which also makes it less easy to be outraged. If it's a complete collection of manuals, it might actually be a net benefit.
I think that, as most likely a bunch of people outside the HeathKit community, it's easy to be harsh and judgmental about this. In the end, Data Professionals will live or die by the hands of that community. If no one buys their manuals because they are asses, game over for them, whatever we think of the rights and wrongs of copyright.
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Re: I'm of two minds about this...
The issue here is something quite simple: copyright is being enforced in order to make someone cash on a product that was previously available for free, and which the current owner had nothing to do with creating.
That is, these actions completely violate the original purpose of copyright and patents - a limited monopoly to allow and influence the creation of further work. The new copyright owners seem unlikely to be creating anything new with the proceeds of this copyright, it's just for personal profit. While doing this, they actually make existing HeathKits less valuable (a manual-less HeathKit is now less valuable when sold on because someone needs to buy a manual before or after purchase).
While it's true that the prices are relatively reasonable, the copyrights for HeathKit manuals are meant to allow the creation of new product, not to make a random 3rd party some extra cash. It's the same old story we see from the RIAA/MPAA/whoever - these copyrights could have been used to create new products or generate new interest in legacy kit. However, they've decided just the try and profit from the old products and try to sue anyone who gets in their way, however counter-productive that might be.
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Re: Re: I'm of two minds about this...
In a word, your view of the purpose of copyright is simply "incorrect" The incentive provided is for the creation of a new work, and not for the creation of yet another new work at some future date.
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Disgusting !!
I will even go a step further. If you buy a product, especially if it is a device that requires a manual for constructing it, you are entitled to the manual. In this case copyright could be considered a liability. The product was sold with the manual and a company should not be able to sever that link. Obtaining a replacement manual should not be considered a violation of copyright.
I will acknowledge in the old paper and mail era, that a company would be entitled to charge for the reproduction and the mailing of a replacement manual. But in the internet era, this is plain wrong.
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Electronics Kit Manuals
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Re: Electronics Kit Manuals
Congress was never known for its integrity, but these days, they don't even pretend to be anything but whores.
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Torrent time
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Re: Torrent time
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Re-Torrent Time
Charging for 30 year old manuals even HeathKit couldn't make money on, a prime example to two annoying American truths:
copyright is killing knowledge for future generations..
and
bottom feeders STILL can't come up with a real business model.
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Re: Re-Torrent Time
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I guess I just don't understand...
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Wow
Jess
www.Privacy-Center.net
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Data Pro website
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Welcome to the world of music...
A work can be POP (permanently out of print) and the copyright holder or publisher can refuse a request to sell a copy to you, while at the same time forbidding you from making a copy.
On the bright side, a Heathkit manual published in say, 1967, will be in the public domain in 2057, so hang on...
It might be a good idea to put the scans on a Russian or Chinese web site and let the copyright holder try to get any traction with a foreign government.
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But this is a manual for a defunct product
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Free Copy
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abandoned rights
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Don Peterson is an idiot
"The following manuals are all 1st generation copies made directly from an original manual. They are not copies of copies... Most manuals are double sided 8 1/2 x 11. Most illustrations and schematics are on 11 x 17 paper. We currently do not offer .PDF or any other 'electronic' copies for sale."
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this is a nonstory
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Re: this is a nonstory
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Re: Re: this is a nonstory
As for innovation, having all out of print Heathkit manuals is innovative. Where could you obtain those manuals in one place prior to this site? Further, it encourages transmission, because only some manuals were previously available.
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Re: Re: Re: this is a nonstory
It is the moral duty of free men to disobey unjust laws.
If the so-called service that the "copyright holder" is offering were valuable, then he would have no need of using the force of law to protect his monopoly -- people (using any browser) would flock to his site as the ultimate source of perfectly-reproduced Heathkit manuals. This is how you'd still have a profit motive without Copyright. Instead he (and others like him) is trying to use force to keep others from having that which may already be in their possession.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: this is a nonstory
Why do you bring terrorism into this conversation, unless you are about to admit to some other crime?
It may be the "moral duty of free men to disobey unjust laws," but you will still have to pay in court. The better approach would be to get the laws changed, if society so deems the changes appropriate.
Incidentally, your fellow citizens also disobey other laws that they apparently think are unjust. Let me give you examples:
Wearing seatbelts.
Obeying the speed limit.
Signaling before changing lanes and turning.
Stopping completely at stop signs and lights.
The list goes on. Regardless, be prepared to pay for breaking the law when you are caught.
As for your final comment, I am unsure where you were headed with that. I do not see where anyone was kept from having something already in their possession. However, they were kept from making those copies available on the internet.
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solution to the problem
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manuals
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Re: manuals
Something new was added; all the Heathkit manuals are available in one location. Further, they are making a product, Heathkit manuals.
People tend to forget that the heart of capitalism is charging for what was previously available for free, but making people feel as though paying was in their best interest. I ran a lawn service as a teenager where I did what homeowners previously did for free for a modest fee, and they were thrilled to pay me.
This individual is replacing the time you would have spent looking for, and perhaps not finding, an old Heathkit manual, apparently guaranteeing you that these manuals are the real deal, and complete. That seems like a lot of value to me.
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Re: Re: manuals
And they could have done that *without* forcing the old manuals offline.
If they're really adding value, then why not actually compete in the marketplace?
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Re: Re: Re: manuals
You are making multiple comments that I consider to be separate from each other.
Re value: I have used manual services in the past. They are great places to find storehouses of manuals that require minimal effort to locate. That has provided value to me. Indeed, considering that most of the children that post on your site (in my eyes, anyone under 30 is a child) have never even heard of most of the things I have sought manuals for, few, if any, have ever been posted anywhere.
Re "forcing old manuals offline": Legally, they were within their rights (or so it seems). That was a business decision that they made in consonance with rights guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America and supported by laws passed by Congress. If you do not like the laws, work to get them changed.
Re "why not actually compete in the marketplace": This is a separate issue from the other two. If you are asking why they do not permit others to use their copyright, then I would suggest that, as I noted above, they are within their rights to prevent copyright infringement. Otherwise, how much competition is there for old Heathkit manuals? I am guessing that there is not a lot, and perhaps none at all.
On the other hand, if you have an old Heathkit manual and you are not using it, why not put the thing up on eBay and sell it? That kind of competition is perfectly legal and allowable.
Yes, they did get someone to pull manuals from the internet. On the other hand, they are providing an innovative resource. Mixed bag, but you will have that.
Again, if you do not like the laws, work to get them changed or repealed. Complaining about them on your site may be cathartic, but does little otherwise. Where is a grass roots campaign for copyright reform?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: manuals
It takes a pretty broad definition of "author" to include the "Data Professionals" in question.
The current law is immoral and unconstitutional.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: manuals
Morality is a personal attribute. In your opinion the "current law," which is actually an array of laws, is immoral. Obviously, for a huge chunk of the population, and many other countries in the world, the laws are quite moral. Further, other than your statement, you offer no support for copyright laws being immoral.
As for unconstitutional, that is also clearly your opinion, and your opinion is erroneous. Copyright laws have been challenged in the past in a variety of ways, and the U.S. Supreme Court has found that the laws are constitutional. Below are a few samples:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=copyright&url=/supct/html /01-618.ZO.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=copyright&url=/sup ct/html/00-201.ZO.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=copyright&u rl=/supct/html/04-480.ZC1.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=copyrig ht&url=/supct/html/90-634.ZO.html
I give you similar advice to what I provided to Mike earlier. If you do not care for the laws, you must work to get the laws changed. However, in this case you may also need to get the Constitution changed as well.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: manuals
I don't deny that there's value. However, YOU were making the claim that this was a reasonable move because of the value. I was merely pointing out those are two separate issues. If there is real value here (and I don't deny there is) then the new company should convince people that it's worth paying for that convenience.
You talked about mowing lawns, which people could do for free. That's different than this scenario, because in this scenario, the company that's offering the lawn mowing service has made it illegal for anyone to mow their lawns for free.
Re "forcing old manuals offline": Legally, they were within their rights (or so it seems). That was a business decision that they made in consonance with rights guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America and supported by laws passed by Congress. If you do not like the laws, work to get them changed
What the hell do you think we're doing?
Again, if you do not like the laws, work to get them changed or repealed. Complaining about them on your site may be cathartic, but does little otherwise. Where is a grass roots campaign for copyright reform?
Keep watching.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: manuals
I don't deny that there's value. However, YOU were making the claim that this was a reasonable move because of the value.
Well, I am unsure of I ever said the move was reasonable. What I said is that there is value in having all the manuals of a certain type (like all the manuals for old International Harvester tractors) in one place. Of course, the value is for the person looking for that kind of manual.
The post supposedly from Barry Watzman explains my feelings the best. I struggle to believe that there would be very many people seeking old Heathkit manuals, which makes the entire exercise appear (to me) to be a poor business decision. However, regardless of what I think, it was their decision to make. Ultimately, the market will either applaud the move or spank them for it. Time will tell.
What the hell do you think we're doing?
Sometimes I wonder. I see a lot of meaningless rants and comments by uninformed people that make my eyes roll. In fairness, there are also some well thought out comments with excellent insight. Unfortunately, I think that people look too often at the rants and less at the well thought out posts and blow off web sites such as this as an unimportant fringe element.
Keep watching.
Back at you on this one, what the hell do you think I'm doing?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: manuals
The cases you cited above do not address the issue of transfer of ownership of copyright. The Constitution grants it to the author. Any law that would extend these rights to others is UNconstitutional.
If you do not care for the Constitution, you must work to the it amended, not ignore it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: manuals
Copyright laws have been in existence for a long time. When you purchase a copyrighted item (or infringe upon a copyright), you knew or should have known those laws were in force. If you do not wish the constraints, then do not infringe. I accept that copyright laws are moral, therefore they are moral. It is a common standard of behavior that copyright is acceptable. If that were not the case, the laws would have been changed by now.
The cases I cited relate to the validity of copyright laws in general. Note that the constitution says that authors are granted the exclusive right to their work for a period of time. Interpretation of this clause, both in common law and in formal law, holds that this means that no one other than the author can reproduce a particular work covered by copyright.
If you do not care for the Constitution, you must work to have it amended, not ignore it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: manuals
When you say "author," in this case you are speaking of a company. Intellectual property has been held to be transferable property, which it must be or a publisher could never print a book. By that same theory, it has long been held, since the creation of copyright laws, that the rights to property, such as books, poems, etc., may be transferred to another for whatever purpose.
Also, property such as writings, performances, recordings, etc., are protected by the fifth amendment of the constitution. If you wish property of this type to not have constitutional and the legal protection derived therefrom, you must work to have the constitution amended, not ignore it.
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This seems just bizarre to me ....
First, let me say that both the ignorance of and the attitudes towards [intellectual] property shown by many of the posters on this board are just appalling to me. Some of you don't understand it, some of you are franly socialists (or expressing socialist values), and others (whether they recognize it themselves or not) just want to be able to take (steal) the work of others without having to pay for it. These manuals are products whose creation cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per [significant] manual. Someone paid that money, way back when, and they (or their successors) OWN that creation, and have a right to do with it as they wish, including selling it and/or banning it's unauthorized distribution by 3rd parties.
THAT SAID, this strikes me as bizarre. The demand for Heathkit manuals just cannot, at this point, be that great. Not great enough, in my estimation, to make it worth the trouble and expense. In principle, I see nothing wrong with this, but as a PRACTICAL matter, it seems senseless and stupid IN THIS INSTANCE, because of the very small number of people who either want this stuff or who will actually end up paying for it. The reality is that most of these manuals have been floating around on the internet for a decade (with no serious objection from the then-owners), the number of people who want them is tiny and I seriously doubt that there is any way to make a profitable business selling this stuff at a reasonable price. But, a significant degree of harm will be accomplished in the process of trying to do so.
Sincerely,
Barry Watzman
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A sad day
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Paying For Old Tech Manuals
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Heathkit and the Founding Fathers.
I think I can say with some confidence that under the "founders' copyright," Heathkit's copyrights would have lapsed by now. During Heathkit's lifetime, this would have had little or no practical significance. After all, to keep up with the market, they had to go from tubes to transistors to small-scale-integrated circuits (7400 series logic gates, operational amplifiers, etc), and I am given to understand that the company ceased operations when it failed to make the transition to large-scale integration, with its proprietary integrated circuits. I have some catalogs, circa 1990, which seem to be mostly full of pre-assembled gear. I would be interested if Barry Watzman could comment on this, and also on what role the spread of wave soldering might have played.
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Re: Heathkit and the Founding Fathers.
Others have even mentioned socialism, as if americans have the faintest idea what socialism is about. You only hear the bull that interested parties feed us with and think that because one makes some money one is free. As to Capitalism Congress is an example.
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Intellectual Property
http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/against.htm
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Re: Intellectual Property
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Free manuals.
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Heatkit manuals now in hands of cartel
How sad that it is even a old time heathkit person.
Data should think about giving back to the industry to make it stronger not strangling the hobbyist that were the beginnings of the high tec. boom in America.
If we help each other we all win.
If not look to China to see where you kids jobs in the high tec industry will be.
With no experience at the hobby level we will loose our future.
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searching for service manual on line
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http://www.mods.dk/manual.php?brand=heathkit
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Copyrightholder forcing off old copies
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Copyright enforcement
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Copyright abandonment
Abandonment of copyright or dedication to the public domain occurs when a copyright owner intentionally gives up copyright protection for a work. When the copyright in a work is abandoned by the owner it enters the public domain. Thus, s/he no longer owns any exclusive rights in the work and cannot bring a claim of copyright infringement against anyone who makes use of the work.
The courts are of the view that rights gained under the Copyright Law may be abandoned. Abandonment of such rights, however, must be manifested by some overt act indicative of a purpose to surrender the rights and allow the public to copy. [Hampton v. Paramount Pictures Corp., 279 F.2d 100 (9th Cir. Cal. 1960)]
This is what happened to Heathkit manuals. The copyright was not enforced and abadonded. The intellectual proprety has been in public domain for years. Now we someone claiming to have bought the rights to them and wants you to pay for public domain property.
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Copyright infringement
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Heathkit
That person was doing for greedy.
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Heathkit Manuals
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