Hollywood Shoots Itself In The Foot... Again; Removes Content From Boxee

from the there's-stupid-and-then-there's-hollywood dept

Wed, Feb 18th 2009 5:07pm — Mike Masnick

I've been hearing such wonderful things about Boxee lately that I had actually been meaning to test it out in the next few weeks. It makes it quite easy to view internet content over your television -- helping to bridge that "final gap" between the internet and your television. Boxee has done a nice job integrating a variety of different legal online video services so you can watch them all via your TV. Obviously, one of the big ones was Hulu, which provides video streams of some of the most popular shows on television. There are some dumb limitations associated with Hulu -- including geographic restrictions and music licensing restrictions -- but for those who can use Hulu it actually works quite well (surprising for an offering set up by NBC Universal and News Corp.). The folks at Hulu have actually been pretty upfront in explaining the limitations and their own frustrations in dealing with some of the very content providers who funded them in knocking down some of the more idiotic restrictions.

However, now it appears those content providers have shot themselves in the foot again. Christopher Froehlich alerts us to the news that Hulu's content providers have demanded that Boxee stop streaming Hulu content and Boxee is going to comply. Hulu has a post on their own blog, where they certainly sound quite apologetic about the whole thing:

The maddening part of writing this blog entry is that we realize that there is no immediate win here for users. Please know that we take very seriously our role of representing users such that we are able to provide more and more content in more and more ways over time. We embrace this activity in ways that respect content owners' -- and even the entire industry's -- challenges to create great content that users love. Yes, it's a complex matter. A tough mission, and a never-ending one, but one we are passionately committed to.

For those Boxee users reading this post, we understand and appreciate that you're likely to tell us that we're nuts. Please know that we do share the same interests and won't stop innovating in support of the bigger mission.

Kudos to Hulu and its CEO for at least explaining the issue in a human, rather than corporate-PR-speak way. And, yes, it's the content providers who are nuts, rather than Hulu. After all, wasn't the point of putting the content on Hulu to get more people to watch the content? Why would they possibly try to make it more difficult for people to watch. Oh, wait, we forgot. NBC Universal thinks it's a good thing to make their content hard to watch.

But, to be honest, it's difficult to see how there's even a claim at all by the content providers at all. They put the content on Hulu so that anyone watching the content via the internet on a computer within the geographic restrictions should be fine. Boxee is just an application on a computer. It's functionally identical to watching the content on your computer screen. The only real difference is that the "screen" is a television instead of a monitor. But the mechanism is identical. It's difficult to see how the content providers can claim any right whatsoever to say that you can watch the content that they purposely put online only on a specific type of screen. I can understand Hulu not wanting to upset its content providers. And I can understand Boxee not wanting to upset Hulu... but I can't see how those content providers have any legal right to make this request at all.

Hell, I imagine users of Boxee (depending on their setup) can simply use the computer they already have hooked up to their TV to surf directly over to Hulu. The interface might not be as nice, but they'll still get to see the content. In those cases, it's not even about the screen -- but the browser. It's perfectly legal for me to hook up my laptop to a TV, surf over to Hulu in Firefox and watch a show. All Boxee does is put that into a different browser -- a better browser for TV. Since when does any content provider get to say that it's okay to watch the content they put online in one browser, but not another? In the end, what good at all does it do to ban Hulu on Boxee other than piss people off?

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Filed Under: content providers, hollywood, tv
Companies: boxee, hulu, nbc universal

38 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 5:17pm

Wow, good thing I heard it here first... I was literally just about to order an Apple TV this minute from Amazon so that I could get Boxee onto my tv. Now that I know I can't stream Hulu thru it what's the point of buying new hardware when I have to use my stinky ol' PC to get the job done. Good one Hollywood =/
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Matt T., 18 Feb 2009 @ 5:21pm

August '08?
"Since when does any content provider get to say that it's okay to watch the content they put online in one browser, but not another?"

Since NBC decided you need to use silverlight to watch the Olympics online, I think.
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Mike (profile), 18 Feb 2009 @ 5:22pm

Re: August '08?
Since NBC decided you need to use silverlight to watch the Olympics online, I think.

That's a technical reason -- not a legal reason.
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Josh, 18 Feb 2009 @ 5:50pm

Browser vs. Boxee
Everyone seems to ask, "Why would one browser be considered ok, while the 'Boxee Browser' is not?"

My best guess is that the Boxee interface is not conducive to clicking on the interactive ads, so any ads on Hulu, even if displayed by Boxee, will essentially have a zero click-through-rate. Thus the value of the ad is reduced.
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Adam Singer, 18 Feb 2009 @ 5:55pm

This is what happens...
when you let those clinging to a past reality which no longer exists make decisions

they have only succeeded in making a PR nightmare for themselves. well played
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Lucretious, 18 Feb 2009 @ 6:06pm

this smacks of corporate attorneys not knowing what to make of the issue so they put the brakes on until they can figure out where this is going.

IOW, clueless old men overwhelmed by technology.
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Brian Walsh, 18 Feb 2009 @ 6:15pm

Can't believe that I am going to argue this, but could it actually be the cable providers pushing back on the content producers that is causing this. On x http://origin-blog.hulu.com/2009/2/18/doing-hard-things, there are dozens of comments from users who have dropped their cable/satellite connections to go with broadband - boxee - hulu. Given the large sums that the cable cos are paying for access, could they be pushing back? Perhaps the likes of NBC/Fox actually want to send their content there but are not permitted because of existing contracts or perhaps they are at risk of losing that revenue stream.

Possibly? [Can't believe I am arguing for them!]
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 6:16pm

Silverlight? Its a joke, it uses 4GB of space just after install.
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Ima Fish, 18 Feb 2009 @ 6:17pm

"It makes it quite easy to view internet content over your television -- helping to bridge that "final gap" between the internet and your television."

It would seem to me that the bridging the final gap between the internet and your television would consist of DVI and audio cables.

If people are willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a console such as the PS3 or 360, or on a single purpose device such as a Blu-ray player... why not spend a couple of hundred on a PC and get full access to everything the net and your hard drive offers?!

I've had a PC connected to my living room TV since the late 90s and I'm never going back. And it's even better with HDTVs. You haven't surfed until you've surfed at 1920 X 1080.

You can play all of those music files you've collected over the years in your living room.

You easily show people all of your pictures and home videos.

You can easily play all of those Xvid and MKV files you've collected.

And let's not forget about PC games too.

And best of all you can control nearly everything with a simple blue-tooth mouse. If you can use a mouse at work, you can use it while sitting on the living room couch. I keep a blue-tooth keyboard around for those rare occasions when I do have to type. It's not like it's a big deal.

What would be a big deal, to me at least, would be limiting what I can watch on the net or my hard drive to only what Boxee is willing to offer.
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CrushU, 18 Feb 2009 @ 6:33pm

Score one for Hulu
This is the reason I like Hulu. Because they really showcase that the issue is with the corporates providing their content. Everytime you can't do something on Hulu, Hulu is very quick to point out 'We WANT to do that, but won't let us!'
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 6:35pm

Re: Browser vs. Boxee
they force you to watch ads on hulu.. impressions
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 7:30pm

Re: Re: August '08?
That's a technical reason -- not a legal reason.

OK, how about "Since NBC was legally able to decide that you need to use silverlight to watch the Olympics online"?
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DL, 18 Feb 2009 @ 7:42pm

Re: Browser vs. Boxee
You still get the ads during the provided content. If your argument was right, then we wouldn't be able to watch anything on the TV at all, because those ads are not clickable.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2009 @ 7:54pm

When I read the headline I thought that this was going to be about the Boxxy that has been reining havoc on 4chan for a while now.
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Joseph, 18 Feb 2009 @ 7:59pm

Re: Browser vs. Boxee
If anything, this is going to drive people who would have watched the networks' legitimate online offering to bittorrent (so they can watch it on their TVs, instead of on a computer screen). I'd been thinking of getting an AppleTV and putting Boxee on it to watch hulu in conjunction with my DVR. Not much point in doing that, though, now.
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fred wilson, 18 Feb 2009 @ 8:24pm

totally agree mike
it's like i wrote your post and you wrote mine http://bit.ly/gtLWJ
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Fribr, 18 Feb 2009 @ 9:21pm

Re: Re: Browser vs. Boxee
If anything, this is going to drive people who would have watched the networks' legitimate online offering to bittorrent

Exactly, my torrent use had slowed to only tv shows from the UK. Since Boxee is now my platform for online media it looks like I'm going back to ad free content. I'm sorry that Hulu has to suffer.
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Bluebeard, 19 Feb 2009 @ 12:15am

ARRRRRRRRRR!!!
I guess it's back to the torrent channel for me and thee, then, innit? So instead of watching SOME ads, ye and me will watch a-none, with nary a soul venturing out ter get screwed again! Tis so brillant a move it could have only come from NBCUniversal!
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Feb 2009 @ 5:24am

This is actually quite a blow for the set-top box industry.

Boxee and others had figured out away to provide value to customers legally. Several hardware makers were moving to this route: apple, roku, vudu, etc

Now you'll probably see similar hardware that simply runs a browser. Heck, you can probably make firefox work with the windows remote. Now all you need is a small cpu capable of running wifi, firefox, silverlight (ughh), and flash. A few common media outputs and you are all-set. (Wait a second, this is my idea, you can't have it!!! It's completely non-obvious :) )

There's already a tool for running hulu through windows media center. http://www.secondrun.tv/

Just like the post above notes, it's just an internet terminal. This is a bad move for hulu-ers
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Paul Battley, 19 Feb 2009 @ 5:36am

XBMC plugins
I use XBMC, on which Boxee is based, and there's a plugin to get Hulu content. I can't say how well it performs - I'm not in the US - but similar plugins for TED etc. work very well.

In fact, it looks like Boxee users are already using the XBMC plugin. All this foot-shooting was in vain.
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Ken Jackson, 19 Feb 2009 @ 7:19am

Re: Silverlight
Obviously Silverlight does not use 4GB of space after install. That's just absurd. Go check again. Or ask a friend who knows how to use task manager or process explorer to do it for you.
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Ken Jackson, 19 Feb 2009 @ 7:25am

Why content providers want to shut down Boxee
I suspect it is about the ability to control future revenue streams. Unfortunately, content providers still haven't figured out how to make money from online content. They aren't sure if the revenue is going to come from the video stream or the surrounding content. I think they believe that without control of the whole playground, they won't be able to figure this out.

I fully expect that if they can get all of their revenue simply out of the stream, then they will want to give this streams away (probably with the player attached, since I imagine that's how accounting will be done). But until then I think they view the potential of Boxxee (or something similar) becoming too popular with no sure way to make revenue from that model too scary. And in this case they may be right.

I say give them a year. Everyone in this space is learning how this thing is coming together. People are going to fumble the ball. Lets let them make their mistakes.
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chris (profile), 19 Feb 2009 @ 7:55am

Re: Re: Browser vs. Boxee
If anything, this is going to drive people who would have watched the networks' legitimate online offering to bittorrent (so they can watch it on their TVs, instead of on a computer screen).

i have been using a modded xbox with xbox media center, a file server, and bit torrent to watch downloaded movies and TV shows on my TV for like 5 years.

i would use boxee or something else, but honestly, my current setup is so easy to use and has so few restrictions that the "sanctioned" versions of shows are nearly impossible to use by comparison.
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EnOne, 19 Feb 2009 @ 8:41am

No Hulu Flash for non Mac or Windows
The version of flash that is used by Hulu is only on Windows and Mac. Which isn't an issue unless you want to watch on a non Windows/Mac browser like Linux, Ubuntu, boxee, Linux, Wii, PS3...

This is why youtube works and hulu does not, the version of flash that is used by youtube is an earlier version that does port and doesn't have region encoding.
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MikeyTG, 19 Feb 2009 @ 9:33am

Arggg - no more Dragnet!
I've been using Boxee to watch Hulu on my Apple TV for a month or so now. It is disappointing that the content chimps have now decided to throw their turds at Hulu and Boxee. Luckily both the Boxee team and some external developers are adding plug-ins for new content sources on a regular basis.

I also expect that this action will spur the developer community to find other ways to get to the content people want. I was satisfied watching Hulu with its minimal commercials, but if it comes to it I can always sign up for an unlimited usenet account and just download everything I want, WITHOUT COMMERCIALS.

Your choice, Bonzo.
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nasch, 19 Feb 2009 @ 10:07am

Re: Re: Silverlight
He may be referring to disk space. Which costs... 10 cents per GB? I don't see the problem, unless you're trying to run it on an ancient system with a tiny disk, in which case it probably wouldn't run anyway.
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Mark Rosedale (profile), 19 Feb 2009 @ 11:00am

That is what is so absurd
Your final paragraph shows just why this is so absurd. I was working to put Boxee in place at home, and probably still will, but for Hulu content I can simply kill boxee and watch it via FF on my computer. Once the stream is full screen it probably won't look a bit different. Are the content owners really that dense? This is absolutely absurd.
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Phillip, 19 Feb 2009 @ 12:47pm

Re: Re: Re: August '08?
Silverlight isn't even a browser.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Feb 2009 @ 1:16pm

the content providers don't necessarily have a legal right, but they may have a contractual right, and they certainly have the leverage of being able to pull their content from hulu if hulu doesn't comply with their "request".
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MattP, 19 Feb 2009 @ 2:07pm

Re:
Version 2.0.40115.0 had a 4.68MB download and has a 12.7MB size on disk after install.
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MattP, 19 Feb 2009 @ 2:16pm

Re:
"It would seem to me that the bridging the final gap between the internet and your television would consist of DVI and audio cables."

A DVI to HDMI adapter is easy to find these days. A quick scan of NewEgg's Video Card Accessories Deals page shows 3 between $6.99 and $9.99

Many newer cards include such an adapter or have the port built in.
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Matt T., 19 Feb 2009 @ 4:25pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: August '08?
But Silverlight only works in certain webbrowsers, Internet Explorer and Firefox for Windows.
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johnfordummies (profile), 20 Feb 2009 @ 5:36am

What I don't get is... since the time of radio, advertisers have been paying out the a$$ for air time to play commercials that people may or may not hear (or see on TV). With over the air broadcasts, there was no good way to determine how many people actually got the message in the ads. Nielson families provide only a "best guess" of what the country is watching, and it was much simpler when there were only 3 networks...

But with digital streaming -- and no way to cut out the commercials, such as the ones Hulu plays--they know exactly how many times a commercial has been watched... they know exactly how popular a show is... Isn't that exactly what Ad Execs have been drooling over since the dawn of advertising?

Hulu made a big mistake, IMO. What does it hurt to give your content more exposure if it leads to more revenue? I don't even know if Hulu has text or banner ads on their site, because I use adblock plus there, but I know for a fact I've seen at least 2 Target commercials every time I watch the Office.

Side Note: Why all the hating on Silverlight? Just because a technology comes from an evil corporation, that doesn't automatically make it bad. In my experience, Silverlight runs much lighter than Flash. And Moonlight seems to be working pretty well on *nix.
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gatherlight, 25 Feb 2009 @ 9:40pm

it's the cable companies
I'd bet it is the cable companies that are pushing there weight on the content providers to halt this.
Why? Because they are the ones that are going to lose the most money. I am sure Comcast has had their lobbyists all over the content providers to stop Boxee. I was just about to buy an Apply TV and run Boxee, now I am on pause for killing my cable company bill.
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jqdoe, 26 Feb 2009 @ 7:12am

sigh
@ Ima - apparently you're not well-versed in Boxee. In case you're wondering, I (and many, many others) run it on my $200 apple tv that "just works" - why bother with a whole computer setup?

To be honest, I hate watching TV on my computer. I don't like walking all the way back to my office/workshop and sitting in a "work" position to get "entertainment". Pretty much everyone I know (save a few) are same way - you have this great LCD TV, and the content on the internet is only useful when it's easy to get on the TV.

A shame though, this is bad both for both Hulu and Boxee. Just a few nights ago the lady and I determined there was absolutely nothing worth watching on the 200+ channels of cable, so we figured we'd head over to Hulu (via Boxee) and pick up some show we hadn't seen yet there. Alas, there was nothing available, and we haven't loaded Boxee since. (Hulu being the number one app for us - given the diversity of content, and the amount available in _one place_ versus having to dig through all of the other options, one at a time.)
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Moe Larry, 8 Mar 2009 @ 2:40pm

Money
Don't you get it? People are canceling paytv - cabel, satellite, etc. Before cable the movie theaters warned us that PayTV was coming - here is the evolution:
Free TV over the air - paid for by commercials
Cable and Sat TV PAY Tv - Paid for by you, and then paid for again by commercials. Shoot, they just increased the revenue.
CABLE & SAT TV (PayTV) Plus Broadband Internet - Paid for by you and commercials, increase in fees for internet also.
Only broadband internet: No more PayTV, no more commercials, only broadband fees. First time they have to take a revenue cut in 30 years. They do not want to go this way.

Watch for a piracy crackdown, they are hating it that people are downloading TV shows (commericials edited out) and watching for free (except for broadband fees). Let's face it, when you pay your cable or sat tv bill, you are paying for (and enriching) things and people you may not watch nor want to support. When I pay my bill I am paying for many womans entertainment channels, black entertainment channel, Oprah, E!, all the sports channels, etc, none of which do I watch or want to support.
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Konrad Roeder, 2 Apr 2009 @ 6:37am

Re: Money
Your evolution again with a different twist:
==Free TV over the air==
Nielsen Ratings tell them the statistical marketshare, which determines the cost of advertising and the demographic as to who is watching.

==Cable and Sat TV PAY Tv==
More channels, more competition but lower marketshare per channel.
Nielsen Ratings tell them the marketshare for TV. In some cases two-way cable tells them live marketshare but no demographics or the number of viewers watching.

==CABLE & SAT TV (PayTV) Plus Broadband Internet==
More and more people switch to the Internet - Infinite "channels" to surf. TV is on the decline because the long tail is growing.

Who is watching Internet early on came from companies like Double-click and their tracking cookies. Google bought double click in 2008. Google figured out how to make the dollars instead of/in addition to the content providers. Google pretty much knows who watches what on the Internet and charges for ads next to the content. The content providers make some money from the ad revenue.

==Only broadband internet. True HTPC TV is here==
But who pays for the programming in this business model?
They want to know who is watching so that they can collect the revenue stream. My Internet provider is not going to pay for the programming, they just deliver the bits.

Hulu knows their marketshare by the number of streams they deliver. What they don't know who is watching since it's an iTV with possibly a wole group of people watchin/surfing.

Honestly, I can do fine without a Google toolbar on my iTV.
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