Hybrid Vehicles Are Quiet -- Maybe Too Quiet, According To A Couple Of Lawmakers

from the danger-will-robinson dept

Fri, May 1st 2009 9:58am — Carlo Longino

One of the side effects of hybrid vehicles -- a positive one, for most people -- is quieter operation traditional vehicles in some situations. Less vehicle noise sounds like a good thing, unless you're blind, so a couple of senators have introduced legislation that would direct the Department of Transportation to study ways to protect blind people and other pedestrians (via Engadget) from silent vehicles. This isn't a new complaint: we reported last year about how Lotus was experimenting with putting speakers in hybrids to play engine noises, although we thought it might have been a joke. But apparently Lotus was just ahead of the legislative curve. Still, we have to wonder, is making cars noisier the best way to protect blind people and other pedestrians?

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Filed Under: blind, hybrid vehicles, noise

78 Comments

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just Bob, 1 May 2009 @ 10:08am

car + pedestrians = bad for both
keeping pedestrians out of the road is a better alternative.
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Anshar (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 10:09am

"Still, we have to wonder, is making cars noisier the best way to protect blind people and other pedestrians?" I don't know if it's the best way... but I think it's at least an easy way to address the problem in the short term. I'd rather have noisey hybrids and electrics than noisey ICE cars.
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John Doe, 1 May 2009 @ 10:13am

As a biker all I have to say is Loud Pipes Save Lives. ;) I guess it would be like the fake shutter sound on digital cameras.

But to answer your question; I can see most people unhooking the speaker so I don't see it being a good solution.
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John Duncan Yoyo, 1 May 2009 @ 10:33am

Re:
Imagine the custom car noises market. Hey that hybrid sounds like a Harley, a stage coach, any number of vehicles from Star Wars...
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 10:38am

Just like they had to mount horse heads on car not to scare the other horses...
Some lame ass ideas when we transitioned from horse to cars.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 10:39am

Re:
..Loud Pipes Save Lives...

Really? As someone in a car, I only hear them once they're past me. I still see bikes first.
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Aaron Martin-Colby (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 10:42am

Horses
It's funny, this is the EXACT same criticism levied against electric cars back in the early days of the automobile.

Only then, people argued that quiet cars could sneak up on, and frighten horses.

This guy even went so far as to glue a horse head on the front of the car...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9505E1DC133BE633A2575AC0A9649C946296D6CF
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John Doe, 1 May 2009 @ 10:50am

Re: Re:
I hear them coming sometimes, but usually you don't hear it until they are right at you. My bike has factory exhaust so it is pretty quite. I don't really buy into the saying but many bikers do.
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Forrest Gump, 1 May 2009 @ 10:52am

I almost got hit by a quiet hybrid while out for a run the other day. I was running on an outer road of the highway (with lots of traffic noise) and crossing one of several turn offs into offices & neighborhoods.
I think some kind of courtesy noise would be nice should the need arise that is driver triggered and less scary than a horn. Maybe a Dukes of Hazard horn would be cool though.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 10:52am

The sound I'd want for my car is the sound from the Jetsons family "car"
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Emilio, 1 May 2009 @ 10:54am

Noize
Actually, with today's modern muffler systems, the majority of the noise from a passing car comes from the tires. A Prius passed by me this morning as I was walking to the office, in a speed-bumped drive, so it wasn't going more than 15 mph or so, and though it was obviously in electric-mode, the amount of noise from its tires meant that it produced about the same level of sound as the combustion-engine cars that immediately preceded and followed it.

If we actually have to produce a certain level of noise by law, some smart-ass lawyers (there certainly seem to be enough of those around...) should be able to sue or something on the basis of damage to your hearing by being forced to expose yourself to a government-mandated level of noise the whole time you are in a car, or a traffic-jam or what-not.

And anyways, aren't the visually-disadvantaged supposed to develop a heightened sense of hearing?
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mike42 (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 10:55am

Re:
As cars get smaller and lighter, you can bet that people will start seeing motorcycles without loud pipes.

Actually, with any luck, there won't be much difference between a motorcycle and a car in the future, Except when it rains. :)
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Anshar (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 10:56am

Custom Noises
How about a trotting horse noise so we can come full circle? Suddenly I have visions of Monty Python running through my head. :)
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 10:57am

Regarding the Loud Pipes Save Lives argument...
I ride and I've never run loud pipes - nor have I ever had a bad experience. That's just my experience though.
My reaction to that, though is -
If loud pipes make riders safer why don't motorcycle officers run loud pipes? They put on far more miles than casual riders - yet their death and injury rate factored for their time on the road is miniscule by comparison.
and
When running loud pipes it's possible to modulate the loudness with gear and throttle choice. Why then is it that most loud pipe riders I encounter take every opportunity to be as loud as possible - even in situations where safety has nothing to do with it....like in a residential area with little or no traffic?

I believe the conclusion is - loud pipes sound good to that rider and to hell with the rest of us who - apparently - just have to endure since motor vehicle silencer laws don't seem to apply to Harleys.
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Tgeigs, 1 May 2009 @ 11:05am

Re: Custom Noises
"You've got two coconuts and you're banging 'em together"
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DJ, 1 May 2009 @ 11:10am

Re:
Didn't your mother teach you to look both ways...?
The topic is keeping blind people safe, not well-seeing joggers.
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Shawn, 1 May 2009 @ 11:11am

we should require all cars to emit the odor of cooking bacon so that the pedestrians that are blind and deaf can smell them.
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DJ, 1 May 2009 @ 11:13am

Re: Re: Custom Noises
We found them!
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Stuart, 1 May 2009 @ 11:14am

Re:
Loud pipes only save the lives of inconsiderate idiots that don't pay attention to what they are doing. Fucking piss ant Harley Riders can all go fuck themselves. I'll key every loud pipe Harley I find.
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DJ, 1 May 2009 @ 11:15am

Re:
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm baaaaacon
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Tgeigs, 1 May 2009 @ 11:15am

Re: Re: Re: Custom Noises
Actually, upon reading the story, my mind immediately went to a different movie:

"Hey, Blinkin'."

"Did you say Abe Lincoln?"
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DJ, 1 May 2009 @ 11:21am

Re: Noize
True. Governmentally mandating a decibel MINIMUM makes no sense.
The best solution is education. Educate the blind to properly use crosswalk buttons/seeing-eye dogs/whatever. Educate drivers to be more aware of pedestrians in general. It's a simple solution, the processes are already in place, and -- here's the clincher -- the government stays out of it.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 11:22am

Maybe there should just be a sound when it is okay to cross the street in conjunction with the "walk" light you see all over now. Then, the blind people can walk across and at that point it's the drivers' responsibilities not to hit them. :]
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B, 1 May 2009 @ 11:23am

Re: Re:
If a Prius drove past me and it sounded like a Tie Fighter screeching by I would probably die laughing.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 11:25am

DJ, who runs education? The govt. does. How does that keep them out of it?
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Esahc (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 11:29am

Re: Re:
Come to an HA dominated town & do that . . . come on, I dare you.
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Anshar (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 11:37am

Re:
"Maybe there should just be a sound when it is okay to cross the street in conjunction with the "walk" light you see all over now. Then, the blind people can walk across and at that point it's the drivers' responsibilities not to hit them. :]"
That's just absurd. (Shhh... don't tell all the municipalities that are doing it.) :)
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 11:37am

I got an idea.. how about we spend all this time and money... on helping the blind see! just a thought.
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cjmpe, 1 May 2009 @ 11:42am

Hybrids too quiet???
How about making car drivers responsible for their own actions like they do in Holland? You are the one piloting 3/4+ tons of metal around on the roads, you should be aware of what you are doing - you hit someone you are automatically guilty and need to prove that you aren't.
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James (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 11:46am

Re:
How about you look before you run into the road.
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Simple solution, 1 May 2009 @ 11:49am

c'mon people...
pin playing cards onto the spokes
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James (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 11:50am

Re:
I used to own a Harley Sports 1200 with open pipes and I thought I liked the loudness. Then I traded up to a Softtail Rocker with much quieter pipes and I found that I enjoy the ride more. Plus, I can hear at the end of the ride and do not have a headache.
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James (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 11:51am

Re: Re:
like trolling much?
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 11:52am

Re: Hybrids too quiet???
That's pretty stupid. It should depend on where you hit the person and whether you were being reckless. If you hit them in a crosswalk or off the road somewhere, if you were going significantly over the speed limit etc., you should be at fault if and only if the pedestrian had the right of way. In all other situations, the pedestrian should always be at fault.
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Stuart, 1 May 2009 @ 11:54am

Re: Re: Re:
An HA dominated town.
I just love old stupid gangs members.
Be they Ghetto trash of idiot bikers.
My gang of 50 guys will kick your ass if your not nice to me.
ALL GANG MEMBERS ARE BY THERE VERY NATURE P U S S I E S !
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Ron (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 11:55am

Ading Noise
Adding noise to a vehicle, or virtually anything where noise is a by product of operation, is a dumb idea. Suggest that we start enforcing laws that require right of way for pedestrians, etc. If they legislate additioanl noise makers in my Prius, I'll cut the f*ckin' wires.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 12:00pm

Honestly, we need less noise, not more. In case you haven't heard (no pun intended), blind people's other senses are enhanced, especially hearing. They should be able to hear those cars just fine, unless they're in an extremely noisy environment. The blind are not necessarily helpless, you know.
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Anshar (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 12:27pm

Re:
Sure, but they'd be paralyzed with fear every time they walked past someone's summer barbeque. LOL!
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jimmy44, 1 May 2009 @ 12:39pm

quiet cars
Why don`t we just clip baseball cards onto the wheels?
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 12:40pm

Re:
So we need more noise pollution because you can't look for cars before running into the road ?
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cjmpe, 1 May 2009 @ 12:45pm

Re: Stupid to blame the driver?
You may be unaware of this, but driving a car is a privilege, not a right. It is granted by the state when you have shown competence in the task. As with all privileges it comes with obligations, such as paying attention to the road and surroundings. Pedestrians have a right to be where they are, simply because they don't require licenses (though maybe I should stop giving idiot politicians ideas)

I'll ignore the comments about crosswalks and being off the road, since those are self evident to everyone but the police who seem to rarely press appropriate charges, however, most drivers exceed the speed limit whenever they can, so I see no reason why drivers shouldn't be required to prove that they weren't exceeding the limit.
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sycarion, 1 May 2009 @ 12:51pm

Myth of sensory enhancement
http://www.afb.org/message_board_replies2.asp?TopicID=2163&FolderID=1

For the record, my deaf son doesn't see better than anyone else either.

I agree that the blind are not helpless. Before doing anything, we should ask those that are blind.
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Anshar (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 12:53pm

Re: Re: Stupid to blame the driver?
Driving a car is a privilege, you're correct abou that. But it is a right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty of a crime.
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Ray Charles, 1 May 2009 @ 12:53pm

Re: Myth of sensory enhancement
Go with God, my friend.
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dubus123, 1 May 2009 @ 12:55pm

quiet cars
Ok so you have blind people who ideally aren't jaywalking. Most major cities have large intersections with beepers that make tones when a cross walk is at a read light and safe to use.
I would guess it would be cheaper to expand on that than to try and retro fit old hybrids and begin manufacturing new ones with such noise makers.
Everyone else should be ok as long as they actually pay attention to their surroundings.
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Anshar (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 12:55pm

Re: c'mon people...
I like it!
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Killer_Tofu (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 1:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: (Stuart #35)
My gang of 50 guys will kick your ass if your not nice to me.
ALL GANG MEMBERS ARE BY THERE VERY NATURE P U S S I E S !

Ok, I have to say that the fact that you said both of those sentences, one after the other is quite amusing.
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John, 1 May 2009 @ 1:09pm

Re: c'mon people...
Winner!
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Paul G, 1 May 2009 @ 1:14pm

Re: I almost got hit by a quiet hybrid
Didn't anyone teach you the basics of crossing? ANYWHERE where there MIGHT be vehicles moving - LOOK.

WTF is wrong with people these days? Doesn't the natural sense of self preservation work with them any more? No matter where you are or who has the right of way, ALWAYS assume that an ignorant moron is about to do something stupid. With that in mind you are probably going to be prepared.

It is a shame that Darwins natural selection theory hasn't removed the morons from the gene pool.
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Paul G, 1 May 2009 @ 1:22pm

Is this a transition thing?
Surely, in the near future, all vehicles will be electric. If so, the ambient noise level will drastically reduce. When that happens a vehicle will be just as easy to hear as I.C. vehicles are today.

As for the blind, don't they have heightened hearing to compensate for the loss of sight or is that just a myth?
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 1:22pm

so do I have to wear a bell now so the blind people can hear me coming? i thought they had dogs for this kind of thing?
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Crabby (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 1:24pm

Finally, something that doesn't assault our eardrums, and lawyers want to ruin it. Just how loud will the cars have to be for the idiots on their ipods to hear them, anyways? Yeah, maybe pedestrians should make an effort on their own behalf, if it isn't too much trouble for them.

Blind people may have a legitimate issue, and certainly their needs should be addressed -- but that doesn't mean deafening everyone in the process! Maybe we can put a sensor in a blind person's cane to detect cars? Like a mini-radar scope? They could find steps and potholes that way, too.
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Crabby (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 1:26pm

Re: loud pipes
I believe they are compensating for smallness elsewhere.
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Crabby (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 1:28pm

Re: Re:
Ha ha! But what if they're vegetarians?
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Rich Zellich (profile), 1 May 2009 @ 1:28pm

Re: Hybrid Vehicles Are Quiet - Maybe Too Quiet
Maybe they could be required to have a pedestrian carrying a lantern precede them.

Historical precedent, after all.
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Christopher Stube, 1 May 2009 @ 1:36pm

Blind safety noises
It appears to me that you would only have to have this kind of warning while the car was moving through town as it would be moot on the freeway
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Bexar, 1 May 2009 @ 1:40pm

Get over it!
"Hybrid Vehicles Are Quiet -- Maybe Too Quiet, According To A Couple Of Lawmakers"

Get over it! Most of the motorcycles today are that quiet and have been for some year now. Matter of fact it's illegal in most states to put a third party muffler system on your bike. A Honda gold wing is a good example of this every thing. The quietest bike on the plant!
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Ron, 1 May 2009 @ 1:44pm

Re: Forrest Gump/Almost Hit
So, you almost got hit by a quiet hybrid while you were crossing some roads. Maybe you could have LOOKED before you crossed the road? Quiet cars or not, you still look. Maybe there would have been a bicycle there instead. They make little noise too (and many ride like idiots as well, but that's a whole other rant). And, for the driver that almost hit you: look where the F*CK you're driving and have some consideration for others on the road. It could not have been that important that you get past that point that you could not have waited 2 seconds longer for the guy to get across the road.
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asymptote, 1 May 2009 @ 1:47pm

beware of pedestrians
If required to make noise with our hybrid, I would want to play the music from the combat assault scene in Apocalypse Now, from Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries."

Being conscious of our lack of noise, we pay greater attention to pedestrians. Even when driving the old combustion engine car, my assumption is that any pedestrian in range is going to dart out in front of me.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 1:56pm

Re: Re: Stupid to blame the driver?
Whether or not it is a privilege vs. right has nothing to do with the conversation. If a pedestrian gets hit on the road under normal circumstances, it should be presumed that the pedestrian is at fault, and would have to be proved otherwise. Pedestrians do not have the right to be where ever they want to be, and that includes streets outside of designated crosswalks.
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Lee, 1 May 2009 @ 2:16pm

the other way around?
why would you make a silent car pollute the air with noise so blind people can hear it coming. how about adding a sensor in the car that emits a certain frequency and giving blind, or disabled people a device that emits a sound based on what frequency it picks up.

for example a small car travelling at 25 mph, emits a 800 mhz freq, and the same car travelling at 55mph emits a 1600 mhz freq. This way the pedestrian can distinguish what car is coming, and also how fast, through the device they are given.

this can also be added to other things, such as motorcycles, trucks, even street lights so let them know how close they are to the corner.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 2:32pm

Re: Re: I almost got hit by a quiet hybrid
[quote]It is a shame that Darwins natural selection theory hasn't removed the morons from the gene pool.[/quote]

Unfortunately, we've entirely bypassed natural selection and created an environment where the Darwinian candidates thrive...I like to think of it as devolution through legislation.
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StereoMike, 1 May 2009 @ 2:45pm

Lets not give in to the stupid, again!
Once again why do we have to succumb to the minority of stupid people. I understand the blind, but honestly in a normal drive that issue is going to be rare.

Some jackass who likes to run in the middle of the road with earphones deserves to be flattened. As well as the biking fool who thinks they can be in the turning lane with the rest of traffic.
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Jerry Leichter, 1 May 2009 @ 3:21pm

Pray you never need to learn how to navigate as a blind person
The self-centeredness of the comments here astound me.

I'm not blind, but I've spoken to blind people. Imagine you're blind and wish to cross a street. Can you tell if there is any traffic? Can you tell what direction the cars are coming from? A blind person with training and experience can easily do both (based on traffic noises) - and *has* to do both. At intersections with traffic lights and beepers, sure, things are easy. But the vast majority of intersections have no traffic lights, and even those with traffic lights rarely have beepers. (And, by the way, the beepers are a hell of a lot louder and more annoying than any sound generator that would be put in cars.) Even if you decided we should spend the money on putting traffic lights at every intersection in the country, how about driveways crossing sidewalks? What happens when cars make turns, crossing over the lanes where walking is allowed?

Really, look up from your perfect little life and consider those who may be less fortunate than you. Or consider yourself in 10, or 20, or 50 years. Think your eyes (and ears and other body parts) will still work as well?

Cars are inherently hazardous to the people in and around them. We accept that as a tradeoff because they are incredibly useful. We've spend decades making them safer for the people *in* them, but are only now really starting to look at those outside. Thus, there are standards in the works on bumper heights, so that when you hit another car your bumper doesn't ride up over the top doing major damage to its occupants. It may not do *you* any good, and no, your Hummer might not looks so cool - but that's just too bad. There are beginning to be proposals for protecting pedestrians as well. Hell, industrial vehicles have had to have audible alerts when backing up for years.

You want to run your car entirely on private tracks, among people who understand what you're doing? Fine; build it any way you like. But as soon as you bring it out into public, among your fellow citizens, the rules change. They have every right to demand that you take reasonable steps to protect them from your actions - witting or unwitting.
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Jason, 1 May 2009 @ 5:12pm

Re: Re:
Love that! Somebuddy hire this guy!
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Jason, 1 May 2009 @ 5:18pm

Re: Re:
Actually, Stu..pid, loud pipes can just as legitimately save perfectly polite people from inconsiderate idiots who weren't paying attention themselves but fortunately heard a biker coming before cutting him off and sending him into a ditch.
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Jason, 1 May 2009 @ 5:21pm

Re: Re:
How about look before you jump into the conversation?

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BLIND PEOPLE. THEY CAN'T LOOK FIRST.
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Jason, 1 May 2009 @ 5:27pm

Re: Re: Stupid to blame the driver?
You may be unaware of this: inertia.
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ToySouljah, 1 May 2009 @ 6:33pm

My car already has this....
Well, blind people can hear (and feel) me coming since my anti-blind hitting mechanisms are powered by Rockford Fosgate :)
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 8:50pm

Re: Re: Re:
How about look before you jump into the conversation?
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT BLIND PEOPLE. THEY CAN'T LOOK FIRST.

Heh, maybe you should follow your own advice. Forrest Gump wasn't claiming to be blind.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2009 @ 10:14pm

Re: Re:
"Loud pipes only save the lives of inconsiderate idiots that don't pay attention to what they are doing"

No, those are the people that keep killing the bikers dumbass.
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Azrael, 2 May 2009 @ 6:43am

Re: Re: Re:
In that case they shouldn't be on the streets alone.
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Peter, 2 May 2009 @ 7:47am

blind neighbor says tires make enough noise for him
our neighbor who is leagaly blind says that a majority of the time he hears the sound of the tires. More pronounced when the road is wet.
When I mentioned this article to him, he reply was, Eh, put a playing card near the spokes so it will go flip flip, flip like when you were a kid on your bike.
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Dustin, 2 May 2009 @ 8:49am

Re: Pray you never need to learn how to navigate as a blind person
I'll have to remember your arguments the next time I decide to play on railroad tracks.

You are after all complaining because cars, through the physics law of inertia, are both deadly and hard to stop if some idiot steps out into traffic and gets hit. I'm sorry, if some disabled person is too dense to notice the extremely noticeably sound of tires spinning on pavement that's not our problem. Why am I so callous? Simple, I work around electric vehicles every day. They're easy to hear, they simply sound different. Their tires aren't perfectly efficient and they have traction, thus they make noise. They're engines, also, emit noise. It's not as much as a combustion engine, but then there's not a freaking explosion going on under the hood so that's to be expected. Anyone that thinks mandatory noise emitters should be required, or would even be helpful, is a moron.
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porkster, 2 May 2009 @ 12:11pm

Oh no, do I need Speakers?
My bicycle is very quiet, will I need to buy speakers for that?
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toyotabedzrock, 2 May 2009 @ 8:43pm

Wow
Perhaps, just maybe, people should PAY ATTENTION WHEN THERE DRIVING!
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mobiGeek, 4 May 2009 @ 11:48am

Re:
How about instead having cars throw out silent noise (a radio signal is, after all, just noise) and those who want to hear the noise get a receiver?

In fact, maybe there is no need to build anything into the cars. I have to wonder if an electric motor doesn't already give off enough noise that a receiver can pick up?
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Clifford Wood, 17 Sep 2009 @ 5:36pm

Invention
I have an invention that can solve this problem. I have a patent on another invention. Looking for government funding to build this device.
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