France Continues Its Campaign To Pass The Worst Internet-Related Laws Around

from the who-can-keep-up? dept

Wed, May 20th 2009 6:16am — Mike Masnick

Perhaps it's a race of some sort to see which country can pass the worst laws related to the internet possible, and France feels that it's falling behind other countries? After approving a "three strikes" law that will kick those accused (not convicted) of file sharing off the internet, someone in our comments reminded us that France is also looking to implement a file sharing tax on ISPs (Google translation) -- even though there's already such a levy on storage media. So... your connection gets taxed in case you're sharing music, your storage gets taxed again for that same shared music... and you can get kicked offline for it anyway.

And then a bunch of folks have pointed out that French politicians are looking to implement new laws that give police the ability to use keylogging software, force ISPs to censor certain sites on a "banned" list, and create a massive database of information on citizens. All of these things have appeared in other forms around the globe. All with great controversy. So it's quite impressive that France is trying to take them on all at once. Who knows if this latest bill will pass, but it really cements the idea that Sarkozy seriously dislikes the internet, and would like to put as many controls on it as possible.

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Filed Under: france, internet, regulations

54 Comments

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Lucretious, 20 May 2009 @ 6:25am

It's France, does anyone expect less?
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UBW, 20 May 2009 @ 6:27am

They are simply trying to prove that all of these are bad ideas at once to prevent other nations from copying them. We should be thanking them for taking on this challenge.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 6:36am

InternetPhobia or netphob
Sarkozy and Michael Lynton have something in common
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:Lobo Santo, 20 May 2009 @ 6:37am

Generational...
This problem will die... it'll take the span of one or two generations though.
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Tgeigs, 20 May 2009 @ 6:37am

It is indeed kind of enjoyable to watch the member countries of the EU, who banded together in order to compete with the Americas, subsequently shit all over themselves and their citizens. I mean, I get it, you guys want to to be socialist, which there's nothing wrong with, but why does that mean you have to piss on your constituents' feet?
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Mike C., 20 May 2009 @ 6:51am

France surrenders again???
Actually, I'm just beginning to think this is the inevitable direction that France would have to take. They are "under attack" from major media to "control piracy" and have "surrendered" to their demands... gotta keep the running joke alive somehow... right?
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Another AC, 20 May 2009 @ 6:51am

Unfortunately it will not matter soon...
Once ACTA is passed we will all be screwed anyway. I don't know why individual countries even bother with this at this point.
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Ima Fish, 20 May 2009 @ 7:05am

"France is also looking to implement a file sharing tax on ISPs"

I'm confused. If the file sharing tax is implemented you'd be paying for your P2P use. So why would it still be illegal to use P2P?!
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Mechwarrior, 20 May 2009 @ 7:14am

Re:
More tax money of course.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 7:16am

Re: #8
So they can have their cake and eat it too, digest it and them crap the rest of it down our throats, while telling us it's for our own good.
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NullOp, 20 May 2009 @ 7:20am

France!
Sounds like its time for another revolution to me! It also sounds like the French government does not know its internet from a hole-in-the-ground. AND the French government wants to tax you on that which they will fine you for and then kick you off the net so you can't get any more files for which they can tax you and then fine you...

What the Hell, over
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Desertboy, 20 May 2009 @ 7:21am

French Internet Laws
What a silly country. Maybe they should get that committee of French Architects who designed the new airpirt (that collapsed after completion) to design some really cool, French Internet Laws?

It is SO NICE to have a different country be the International Laughingstock for a change.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 7:40am

Re: French Internet Laws
country != citizens

Americans should be aware of that, of all people.
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Tgeigs, 20 May 2009 @ 7:47am

Re: Re: French Internet Laws
I completely agree, but we democratic people believe that it's YOUR responsibility to go kick your government's ass when they start acting like drunken inbred monkeys.

Not that we always practice what we preach, but I'm just sayin...
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Bobby Boberanna, 20 May 2009 @ 7:48am

Re: Re: #8
Hey, cake is cake.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 7:50am

Re:
I mean, I get it, you guys want to to be socialist, which there's nothing wrong with....
Nothing wrong with being socialist? I think we've seen socialism to its extreme before, and that didn't work out so well. They were called NAZI's.
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Ross Nicholson (profile), 20 May 2009 @ 7:55am

Glorious France is right.
Lobbyists for thieves and pornographers here may decry valiant French and European efforts to protect copyright holders from wanton depredations, but the people of France and Europe and the west generally know that protecting intellectual property is in everyone's best interests. For instance, if left to the savage people of Saudi Arabia, pornographers would have their uh, well, something else cut off for infractions rather than paying a tax.
The idea to tax blank media imposes burdens on law-abiding people, but the greatest burden is upon 'downlow' ders, streaming porn. Apple's system would seem to be preferred, but downloaders always go cut rate if they can.
God bless the French Republic for trying and doing their best to uphold the values and the interests of all people everywhere.
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Kent, 20 May 2009 @ 7:57am

Re: Re:
Yeah... to the extreme where it become something not truly socialistic. You're an idiot.
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Steven, 20 May 2009 @ 8:02am

Re: Re: Re: #8
THE CAKE IS A LIE!

(sorry, couldn't resist.)
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Steven, 20 May 2009 @ 8:05am

Re: Glorious France is right.
*Hunting desperately for the sarcasm tag...
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Tgeigs, 20 May 2009 @ 8:41am

Re: Re:
"Nothing wrong with being socialist? I think we've seen socialism to its extreme before, and that didn't work out so well. They were called NAZI's"

You seem to have two viewpoints.

1. Socialism is wrong
2. Extreme socialism resulted in the Nazi party

Those two don't have much to do with one another. Extreme forms of any government tend to be counterproductive. Socialism is a perfectly acceptable form of government. If that's what the people want, that's what they should get.
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TDR, 20 May 2009 @ 8:44am

Sounds like the French people may need to bring the ol' guillotine back out 'till their government gets its act together...

[/humor]
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 8:52am

Re: Re:
Arrgh my brain hurts.

Extreme Conservatives are Nazis/fascists.
Extreme Liberals are communists.

Why do you think Hitler's Nazi army were trying to overthrow the current powers that be? It was to "go back to the good ol days" where you had only Aryans and clean ethnic races in control and not all these new comers. While they were all for technological progress their social progress was to stay at worst what it currently was, and at best what they think historically was the best through gestapo policing methods.

What the hell does socialism have to do with any of this? If anything this is a highly conservative stance they are taking against new technologies since the internet challenges and changes the playing field for politics, economics, information, etc. So all of this change is BAD.

I know there seems to be plenty of bashing against conservatives here but there is plenty of bad to be had with extreme liberal policies much like extreme conservative policies is bad.
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Tgeigs, 20 May 2009 @ 8:54am

Re: Glorious France is right.
So...much....wrong....can't contain....hatred.

"Lobbyists for thieves and pornographers here may decry valiant French and European efforts to protect copyright holders from wanton depredations"

First of all, this isn't a children's book, so tone down the adjectives, you smelly wanton vile villainous jackass, they're distracting. Second of all, where are the lobbyists for thieves and pornographers? I tend to see lobbyless individuals being persecuted as thieves (which is an inherently incorrect characterization) against the lobbyist kings (RIAA, ASCAP, etc.). So where is "here"?

"For instance, if left to the savage people of Saudi Arabia, pornographers would have their uh, well, something else cut off for infractions rather than paying a tax"

Hello, my name is cultural tolerance and understanding that American values don't apply to every society on the planet. I don't think we've met.

"The idea to tax blank media imposes burdens on law-abiding people, but the greatest burden is upon 'downlow' ders, streaming porn"

Uh...what? Childish sentence structure aside, how does taxing blank media impose ANYTHING on people "streaming porn"? Do you know what streaming means? And how can taxing EVERYONE on blank media possibly put the greatest burden on a specific group? When you tax everyone blindly, you tax...you know...everyone...like....blindly.

"God bless the French Republic for trying and doing their best to uphold the values and the interests of all people everywhere"

No, God DAMN the French government for infringing on other people's basic rights and having ANYTHING to say about what goes on outside of their borders.
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Jim, 20 May 2009 @ 9:09am

Download Tax
The download tax is a bad idea, if combined with the ludicrous "three strikes" law; however, I think it's potentially a great idea, if combined with a law that makes ALL downloading legal. It's possibly the most realistic way to allow people to get all the downloads they want efficiently and at a low cost, and still ensure that rights holders will get paid for their work. Companies like BigChampaign already know what people are downloading. A service like that could be used to determine how much rights holders get paid (based on popularity).
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 9:20am

Re: Re:
Nothing wrong with being socialist? I think we've seen socialism to its extreme before, and that didn't work out so well. They were called NAZI's.

Actually, the Nazis were anti-socialist right wingers.
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Tgeigs, 20 May 2009 @ 9:43am

Re: Re: Re:
mmmm, not really. They were anti-COMMUNIST rightwingers, more than anything else at least.
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Steven, 20 May 2009 @ 9:45am

Re: Download Tax
except 'right holders' don't get paid for their work under these schemes. Collection services collect all this money and then just can't seem to find where it all needs to go, so they keep it.
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Willynailer, 20 May 2009 @ 9:50am

Download Tax
As for as trying to get all the other laws passed at the same time. It is a case of throwing everything at the wall and see what sticks.
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Rob R., 20 May 2009 @ 10:40am

Re: France surrenders again???
J'Abandonne!
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specnaz, 20 May 2009 @ 11:02am

Down here in Poland we got a entity called Kopipol. Basically it charges 1 up to 3% of value on digital media,
such as cds,dvds, hard disks, pen drives -you name it.
And all this "taxation" is in the name of crative communities, artists - but only those artists associated with collective societies.
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lulz, 20 May 2009 @ 11:07am

Re: Re: #8
let them eat cake
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chris g, 20 May 2009 @ 11:40am

Re: Re:
now im one of the more conservative people in my group of friends but i must defend socilism from your claim. The objectionable policies of the nationalist-socialist party in germany had nothing to do with the ideology of socilism. A true socialist believes in the equality of all.
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Jason, 20 May 2009 @ 11:46am

Re: Re:
Point of correction: the Nazi's were fascists.
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Tgeigs, 20 May 2009 @ 12:06pm

Re: Re: Re:
Fascism IS the far right end of the spectrum, no?
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Jim, 20 May 2009 @ 2:38pm

Re: Re: Download Tax
"except 'right holders' don't get paid for their work under these schemes. Collection services collect all this money and then just can't seem to find where it all needs to go, so they keep it."

Could you give me a real life example?
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trollificus, 20 May 2009 @ 2:47pm

O rly?
"Fascism IS the far right end of the spectrum, no?"

Huh? Why would you say that? Besides knee-jerk response, having heard it said so many times before.

See, you have all these little tags on the word "socialist"...and they are "progressive", "tolerant", "enlightened", "well-intnetioned"...clearly all the "good" and "right" things.

And you have little tags on the Nazis..."evil", "murderous", "genocidal", "depraved" etc...clearly a whole bunch of bad things.

But the tags represent value judgements that don't really work to aid comparison between the two. I propose that these tags, however accurate they may be, preclude your accurately assessing how much the Nazis actually had in common with those we, today, label socialist.

After all, they (the Nazis) nationalized industries, which is a VERY socialist thing. And they tried to control political expression to make sure everything was "correct", also a very socialist thing. And they wanted to enroll all the "correct-thinking" people into service to the state, which is very, very, very, almost Obama-like, socialist. Also, they were very strong on gun control, a position most socialists support. They were anti-smoking, believed in vegetarianism, mysticism and perfect health and fitness...you recognize any of that?

No, once you move past the labels, it's clear the Nazis had a lot in common with today's socialists.

Starting with top-down control of other people's lives. (and there's nothing much different there than the real right-wingers, I'll admit.)
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Tgeigs, 20 May 2009 @ 3:02pm

Re: O rly?
"Huh? Why would you say that? Besides knee-jerk response, having heard it said so many times before"

-According to the simplest left-right axis, communism and socialism are usually regarded internationally as being on the left, opposite fascism and conservatism on the right- from the Wiki article on the political spectrum...

So, in addition to hearing it poli/sci classes in college...yeah, kind of. When it's the generally accepted view, I suppose lots of people say it.
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trollificus, 20 May 2009 @ 3:04pm

dichotomies
Virginia Postrel has proposed a much more useful dichotomy...between 'stasist' and 'dynamist' viewpoints.

It goes a long way towards explaining the strange bedfellows we seen opposing NAFTA and genetically-engineered products, luddites and technocrats, sleeping together, mass hysteria!!

Ghostbuster refs aside, I won't go into a long explication, but rather recommend her book "The Future and Its Enemies".
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trollificus, 20 May 2009 @ 3:16pm

well, you have to admit it requires a lot of unsatisfactory and awkward mental gymnastics to make every political position fit along that "simplest axis".

When I read Postrel's book, I thought it provided original and amazingly useful alternative axes to such thinking.

Your mileage may vary, especially if you have vested any self-esteem in being on the "good" political side.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 5:46pm

Re: O rly?
citations ?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 8:19pm

Re: Re: O rly?
"citations ?"

Here is information about the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Specifically what do you want citations for? They were nationalists, they censored things, etc...
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Anonymous Coward, 20 May 2009 @ 10:06pm

Re:
Excuse me, but there is A LOT wrong with being socialist. It's a failed, inhumane, horribly ineffecient system compared with free enterprise and capitalism.
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Azrael, 21 May 2009 @ 12:26am

Re: Re:
Oh, and the free enterprise and capitalism is so successful that it needed to be rescued by a chinese communist regime from bankrupcy.
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Tgeigs, 21 May 2009 @ 6:24am

Re: Re:
"Excuse me, but there is A LOT wrong with being socialist. It's a failed, inhumane, horribly ineffecient system compared with free enterprise and capitalism."

Riiiiiight. Well, now we get to play the definitions game, namely, how are you defining the following: capitalism, free enterprise, socialist, and failed.

Most of Europe is socialist to one degree or another, and by most definitions I don't think you would define Europe as a "failed" state. We are also socialist in this country to a much lesser degree as well. FDA? Socialism. EPA? Socialism.

So, unless you happen to be from or supporting supposed "free market" societies like South Africa (hey, there's a winner!), I can only guess that you're arguing about the DEGREE of socialism, despite the verbage of your comment.

Unless of course you know of a successful capitalist, free market state that I'm ignorant of?
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PrometheeFeu (profile), 21 May 2009 @ 7:45am

To be fair
To be fair, when your Internet connection is cut off, you still have to pay for it. (And of course the tax if it gets passed)

Though the most amusing thing is that the 3-strike law has an interesting loophole where if you have a government approved bug setup, (most likely software it seems) you are considered to have your Internet connection "secured" and are immune from the 3-strike law. (Basically, it is assumed that someone went out and hacked the government bug and then downloaded with your Internet connection) Now, I don't know how many of you have a background in computer security, but the idea that you can create such a system such that a competent person cannot hack it and bypass it while it still looking like it works fine is ridiculous.

Oh, also, the government bug will not be free, (let's make people pay for the device that spies on their private communication) and there is no provision for incompatible OSs. (Who said anti-trust?)

To the attention of the socialist debate:
The US is a socialist state. Medicare, social security, medicaid, unemployment benefits, free education etc... Get over it. It's not that bad as long as you are smart about it.
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Nelson Cruz (profile), 21 May 2009 @ 9:24am

Calm down, it's not gonna happen!
This idea of a file sharing tax, which they called "global license" or "cultural license" was actually defended by the opposition (socialist party) in the parliament as an ALTERNATIVE to the 3 strikes law, and strongly rejected by Sarkozy's government.

So this is not gonna happen. At least not until 3 strikes fails miserably and/or the socialists rise to power in France again.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 May 2009 @ 9:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
mmmm, not really.

Yes, really. The fact that they were also anti-communist did not somehow make them pro-socialist by any means. The Nazi's were strong believers in survival of what they considered to be the fittest (e.g. Aryans) and believed that socialism only served to support those who were not fit to survive.
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Tgeigs, 21 May 2009 @ 10:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Right but, interestingly, they supported Socialism WITHIN the Aryan race, which is why I said not really. Their chief platform in the 20's and 30's was Anti-Communism.

But you're correct, as well. National Socialists would not support today's socialism.
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PrometheeFeu (profile), 21 May 2009 @ 10:41am

Socialists are not NAZIs
OK, the first guy to have called socialists NAZIs gets a Godwin Point. Also, just to set the record straight, while the NAZI party did support some aspects of socialism, the implication that NAZI=socialist is demonstrative of a lack of historical understanding and political awareness. Some fascists supported some aspects of capitalism. I don't suppose many of you here would argue that because you defend the free market, you also support killing off the opposition. (At least I hope) Similarly, there are people who support government services without supporting killing the Jews.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 May 2009 @ 4:46pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
National Socialists would not support today's socialism.

They didn't support it in their day either. Don't confuse "national socialism" with "socialism" because of the semantic similarity of the names. "National socialism" referred to the belief that individuals had a social duty to support their national government. That was pretty much the opposite of "socialism" both then and today.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 May 2009 @ 11:03am

Re: Re: Re: O rly?
Specifically what do you want citations for? They were nationalists, they censored things, etc...

Oh, I see. They were Republicans.
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Sir Prank-a-chiff, 26 May 2009 @ 12:01pm

" What luck for rulers that men do not think. "
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Mihat Micoat, 23 Jan 2011 @ 8:03am

France and the Internet
The biggest problem with the internet in France is that French Telecom have a monolopy. It doesn't matter what company you are with, they all use FT lines. Once you are out of the cities, you pay the same for 128/512 kbs as you would for 20 megs in the big cities. Total rip off!
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