Consumer Group Wants ACTA Discussions Stopped Until Consumer Rights Are Represented In Negotiations

from the would-be-nice,-but-seems-unlikely dept

Mon, Jun 29th 2009 6:38pm — Mike Masnick

We've discussed in great detail how the current ACTA treaty has been mostly driven by corporate interests as a way to sneak in more draconian copyright laws through international treaty, rather than through legislative means. When consumer groups have requested a seat at the table, they've been rejected, even as industry lobbyists have had no problem being active participants in the process.

Now, a group called the Trans Atlantic Consumer Dialogue has demanded ACTA negotiations be put on hold until consumer groups have a real seat at the table, or at least are given access to documents being negotiated. TACD raises a number of important issues, such as respecting privacy rights and the rights of developing nations, who are often trampled over when it comes to IP protectionism from developed countries. But best of all, it points out one of the most annoying things in all efforts by copyright holders to extend copyright protection: they never, ever present any evidence for why it's necessary. It's an evidence-free zone. TACD specifically requests that real evidence be used:

Public policy on the enforcement of intellectual property rights should be informed by creditable evidence, transparent and realistic assumptions and objective peer reviewed analysis. Multiple approaches to addressing the legitimate concerns of right owners and consumers should be considered.

Statistics on counterfeiting and or infringement must be objective, accurate, and presented in the appropriate context.
Statistics on counterfeit and substandard medicines should not be combined when this misleads policy makers about the extent of either problem. The solutions to counterfeit and substandard products are often quite different.
Estimates of losses from infringements of intellectual property rights should be based upon realistic demand and usage parameters.
Governments should collect and analyze statistics on the relationship between infringement and affordability of products.

Here's TACD's full proposal:

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Filed Under: acta, consumer rights, copyright, counterfeiting, evidence, lobbyists, privacy, secrecy
Companies: tacd

24 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2009 @ 6:58pm

Exactly. Until Copyright is no longer a method used to economically exploit people, it will only be used as a tool to economically exploit people.
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theskyrider (profile), 29 Jun 2009 @ 7:11pm

One day,
Far in the future, we will be sitting around in our rocking chairs having a good laugh at all the trouble the content companies went through to get paid.

Of course, my bank account will be close to empty because I sat through thirty years of CSI being beamed directly into my brain and being charged $3,000 an episode for the privilege. (Adjusted for inflation, of course.)

I will look at my long-obsolete ten terabyte media server with longing for the good old days when I watched such things on a flat-panel television, then I will try to remember what television was, and that I needed my glasses to watch it, then I will settle back and watch a news flash beamed into my head...Iran just released all the political prisoners taken captive during the demonstrations following the 2009 election.

2009? Oh yes, I remember that year. We had elected representatives to Congress! ZAP! Another message comes into my head..."You are not allowed to think about free democratic society. This warning courtesy of the Corporate States of America."

2009? Oh, yes, that's when every country in the world signed that ZAP! treaty ZAP! that gave corporations everything ZAP! they needed ZAP! to stamp out consumer choice. ZAP! ZAP! ZAP! "We're sorry, but your thought process has strayed to freedom. This is not allowed. You will be terminated. ZAP!
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Mr Big Content, 29 Jun 2009 @ 7:26pm

Slippery Slope
Once you start demanding supporting evidence before you allow strengthening of Intellectual Property laws, where's it going to end? Are you going to have to pay attention to evidence against? Just because the facts are against the effectiveness of copyright and patent laws, does that mean they must be weakened? Once the whole debate becomes based on evidence, that will undermine the whole foundation of much of the current content industry. Do we really want that to happen?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2009 @ 7:40pm

Re: One day,
All I can say about this is Tooo Funny.
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Reed (profile), 29 Jun 2009 @ 7:49pm

Only one way to solve this headache...
Do the third world countries a favor and eliminate IP law now before this stupidity continues.

IP law is not supported by any evidence period. There may be many correlations that support it, but they are just that.

The simple reason is that IP law does not help people create. It is not now, nor has it ever been desgned to help you create.

In fact, it is designed to do just the opposite. To tell you what you can not do, or to limit your ability to create.

There is a whole faulty logic built around the need for IP in the modern marketplace, but it doesn't change the simple fact that it is anti-creation and therefore anti-freedom.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2009 @ 7:58pm

Re: Only one way to solve this headache...
I guess I am just dumb, but why not allocate your precious imaginary property to the State level where it should be, make California a separate country, re-negotiate treaties with us, and we're all set.

Hell, you already have people checking cars on entry into CA for fruitflies. You might as well call them "Customs". Let's make your ongoing tantrum the end of the day.
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anon, 29 Jun 2009 @ 8:01pm

us health care
Not entirely related to this topic but with the abolishment of copyright if obama and the legislators do it would be a very simple act that would probably significantly reduce health care costs.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2009 @ 8:03pm

Re: Re: Only one way to solve this headache...
Sorry, didn't mean to direct my anger at Reed directly, just California IP assholes.

I started reading the Waxman-Markey bill and it just fucking... Oh man, Waxman really pisses me off. Who the hell voted for him?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2009 @ 8:27pm

No No No No No on Waxman-Markey
Ed Markey needs to run his shit by some people at MIT or Harvard before he puts his name on a crappy bill like that.
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Billy Mays, 29 Jun 2009 @ 8:45pm

HI, BILLY MAYS HERE,

YOU DON'T INCREASE TRADE BY MAKING PRODUCTS LESS VALUABLE.

THIS MEANS TAXES SUCH AS SHIPPING AND HANDLING, IMPORT, OR COPYRIGHT JUST INCREASE PRICES, AND ULTIMATELY, PEOPLE WON'T BUY. WHAT'S THE SOLUTION? IT'S EASY! JUST VOTE THEM ALL OUT.

BUT WAIT, THAT'S NOT ALL.

IF YOU BUY AMERICAN PRODUCTS YOU WIN! YES, YOU EMPLOY AMERICAN PEOPLE WITH AMERICAN FAMILIES WITH AMERICAN HOMES! IT MAY COST A LITTLE MORE, BUT EVEN IF YOUR NOT IN A JOB, DON'T YOU FEEL BETTER WHEN AMERICANS BUY AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS?

SEE MY SPECIAL ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT. I LOVE YOU AND MISS YOU ALL.

DON'T DELAY, ORDER TODAY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtYdDK1uTDI
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2009 @ 8:46pm

This one is the proverbial fish in a barrel. Shooting at this stuff is so much fun.

"statistics on counterfeiting and or infringement must be objective, accurate, and presented in the appropriate context."

Umm, okay, let's go as TPB for download counts, and maybe go past Shenzen and ask the factory owners how many counterfeit DVDs they cranked out today.

"Statistics on counterfeit and substandard medicines should not be combined when this misleads policy makers about the extent of either problem. The solutions to counterfeit and substandard products are often quite different."

Let's ask the last guy who died from fake viagra made out of rat poison and blue tempra dye how important it is.

"Estimates of losses from infringements of intellectual property rights should be based upon realistic demand and usage parameters"

Because counterfeit, infringing, and "sharing" is so widespread, it is difficult at this point to determine demand because demand has been skewed by too much "FREE!".

"Governments should collect and analyze statistics on the relationship between infringement and affordability of products."

Why the governments? Why not one government? Why not just hire some guy named Bob? Why add even more nonsensical information into a debate crowded with one side yelling "BILLIONS!" and the other side yelling "FREE!". It's like adding extra cream pies into a food fight.

These people can't be serious.
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kirillian (profile), 29 Jun 2009 @ 9:42pm

Re:
You can' be serious...can we say, "Straw-Man"?

Or, even better, can we point out that this is an example of someone wanting protection from the unknown so badly that he's willing to give up his freedoms (but, even better, give up the freedoms of his neighbors too) to get his feeling of safety. Ya...that's something that we SHOULD question.
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Pjerky (profile), 29 Jun 2009 @ 11:31pm

Re:
Ok, so apparently you (Anonymous Coward talking about gauging demand) are missing the truth here. Demand for buying the real thing or the original, in the past, has been shown to actually INCREASE because of free. The presence of free doesn't skew the information, if anything it gives more power to the consumer to demand good products and ignore shitty products.

The case of the original Napster is a great example. For the better part of two decades album sales had been dwindling, then Napster came around and all the sudden the sales of albums in the stores jumped in correlation with the use of Napster. This is because people got a taste of part of an album and decided that it really is worth spending $15 on it. Whereas in the past, unless someone just really loved a band or highly anticipated an album, people generally would choose not to buy it. This is because the sense of risk at wasting money on a terrible album prevented them from even trying it out.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2009 @ 12:26am

Re:
Or like when the RIAA uses a band from the Pirate Bay to argue its case and then the very band it uses ends up condemning the RIAA for using them, disagreeing with the RIAA and saying that TPB has been good for the band. Accurate information by the RIAA? Or when the RIAA first argues that XM Radio and Internet radio deserve to pay royalties because they're different from celestial radio and then, after winning that case, they argue another case saying that celestial radio should pay as well. Accurate information? I think not. More like self interested contradictions at every turn.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2009 @ 12:49am

Re: Re:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090614/2223175228.shtml
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/2009060 1/0644235082.shtml

Or when the RIAA tries to sue over some minor highschool boycott of their music that occurred over two years ago. More self interested contradictions.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090616/1527385253.shtml

and then these people try to support thier position with apparently bogus studies.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090528/1258425047.shtml

Not to mention their complete lack of transparency and attempts to censor opposition

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090203/1719013633.shtml

If they are so honest why the lack of transparency? Why the attempted censorship of anything that criticizes them?

"Umm, okay, let's go as TPB for download counts, and maybe go past Shenzen and ask the factory owners how many counterfeit DVDs they cranked out today."

This assumes that every download is counterfeit and contributes to lost sales.

"Let's ask the last guy who died from fake viagra made out of rat poison and blue tempra dye how important it is."

Stop trying to support your position with data you made up and with fake hypotheticals.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2009 @ 12:53am

Re:
"Umm, okay, let's go as TPB for download counts, and maybe go past Shenzen and ask the factory owners how many counterfeit DVDs they cranked out today."

One problem is that the RIAA can't be trusted to produce accurate data and governments rely on industry fabricated data to make decisions.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090528/1258425047.shtml
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packrat (profile), 30 Jun 2009 @ 4:46am

fee-fi-fo SUM
the CRTC here in canada just awarded 5.16 a year for photocopying.
i know why m. jackson died, it was shame at being out-classed.

guilty. guilty. guilty.
admin law is SUCH a fab tool, isn't it?

packrat
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2009 @ 4:58am

Re: Re:
Let's get Mike Masnick to answer the questions: It would be like "zero, nothing, no loss, they make money, go away".

@Pjerky: "Ok, so apparently you (Anonymous Coward talking about gauging demand) are missing the truth here. Demand for buying the real thing or the original, in the past, has been shown to actually INCREASE because of free."

Nothing is further from the truth. Good free (ie samples) do tend to push sales, it is an old sales technique that probably goes back thousands of years. Giving away the entire store doesn't. The one survey that Mike tend to point to (about Canadian downloaders) showed that these rabid music fans didn't buy CDs at a rate any higher than average overall internet users. They controlled more music, but they didn't buy more music than average, and they didn't attend concerts on average with any great increase over the next layer of "average" fans. The rabid music fans should be the ones buying more music and more concert tickets, and these people were just not doing it.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2009 @ 5:33am

Re:
R.I.P Billy.

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php
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Michael Davis (profile), 30 Jun 2009 @ 5:45am

Re: One day,
I have to agree with AC. This is a great comment. Let's hope it doesn't turn out to be true.
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josh (profile), 30 Jun 2009 @ 7:59am

Re: Slippery Slope
please tell me that this commentor just forgot to add his /sarcasm tag.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2009 @ 8:04am

Re:
Yes, because everyone knows that when you make fake drugs, you make it of the deadliest thing that you can find, like rat poison.

Oh, fake flu pills! Let's fill little capsules with C-4 and a tiny detonator! Nobody will ever find out!

I heard that hydrochloric acid mixed with arsenic makes a great fake pancake syrup.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2009 @ 8:54am

Re: Re: Re:
I'm not Pjerky, don't know why you're responding to me.

"The one survey that Mike tend to point to (about Canadian downloaders) showed that these rabid music fans didn't buy CDs at a rate any higher than average overall internet users."

You're still relying on likely bogus studies to support your position? Wow. I guess you can't leave those industry funded fabricated studies alone.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2009 @ 8:56am

Re: Re: Re:
"Let's get Mike Masnick to answer the questions: "

What questions?

"It would be like "zero, nothing, no loss, they make money, go away"."

What?
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