New Study States The Obvious: Kids Download A Lot Of Music
from the this-is-not-going-away dept
Over the past few months, there's been a push among some to suggest that file sharing is really a marginalized behavior, only done by a small group of people -- and that with just a little education (and maybe a few big legal victories, such as the ones against Jammie Thomas and Joel Tenenbaum -- combined with new services like Spotify), perhaps it can be brought "under control." The "evidence" given for this has often been a case study in how to use statistics to delude yourself, often looking at the total percentage of people or internet users who engage in file sharing. But, the fact is that ignores the real issue: which is that kids today (tomorrow's consumers) are file sharing at a very high rate. A new study, sponsored by UK Music (the UK organization that's looking to get ISPs to put in place some sort of blanket licensing plan) has found that over 60% of kids in the UK admit to file sharing, with 83% of those admitting to doing it regularly, and those surveyed claiming to have downloaded an average of 8,100 tracks. Think about that for a second. 8,100 tracks.While the defenders of the old system want to liken file sharing to a problem like shoplifting, at some point you have to realize it's something entirely different. This isn't a marginal behavior done by "bad kids." This is about as common as can be. Oddly, the BBC tried to spin this report to say that file sharing has dropped, but that "drop" was only 2% and it's within the margin of error of the survey -- meaning there's no actual evidence that it dropped. The study also contradicted that other study we wrote about recently (also in the UK) that claimed that kids were replacing downloading with streaming services. In this survey, 78% said they had no interest in a streaming service, and 89% saying they'd never pay for such a service.
Given the two conflicting studies (both sponsored by biased parties), you have to question the results of both. But, given the fact that kids are more likely to deny file sharing activity these days, rather than admit to it (knowing they could get in trouble for it), you have to wonder if this study even undercounts the actual activity.
Now, once again, let's make a clear point: I'm not saying this is right or legal. I don't think anyone should download music from an artist who does not authorize it. But the fact is that file sharing is not a "small thing" among kids today, and to think that there's some sort of magical method of getting it to go away is wishful thinking. Given that we're seeing more and more artists learn how to embrace file sharing to do better with their own business models, at some point it's time for those fighting against it to recognize -- from the copyright holders' perspective -- that it's better not to fight what consumers want, but to embrace it, combined with a smart business model, and stop worrying.
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I have been conducting my own little survey for the past 2 years, and I have yet to find a single person under the age of 25 who doesn't engage in filesharing of some sort. Not all of them use p2p services, as some of them don't have high speed internet. But they do trade mp3s with friends, copy cds from each other and so on.
And these aren't delinquents. At least not all of them. Some are honors students. Some are church goers. Hell, a couple of them come off like something out of Little House on the Prairie.
This battle has been lost.
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Pretty much, it makes it clear: It's exactly like kleptomaniacs, they are downloading because they can and it turns them on, not because they need or will use what they have pinched.
For me, it is an indication of a greater problem, one that lines up with the lack of respect for authority, the lack of respect for the risks of drink, and so on that are prevalent in UK youth culture today. It should scare retailers to death, because it is clear that these kids don't respect anything - and your retail store is probably next.
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A bit more than in the 80s?
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Re:
and your retail store is probably next.
FUD much, do you? Might as well say, "It's clear these kids don't respect anything, your daughter is probably next." Or maybe, "..your life is probably next."
Do you *honestly* think hitting Ctrl+V on a computer is the step before theft? Seriously, you're a walking, talking caricature.
It's exactly like kleptomaniacs, they are downloading because they can and it turns them on, not because they need or will use what they have pinched.
So, 60% of the UK's kids have a mental disorder? All the more reason not to hunt them down and punish them, I mean, they're sick kids! They need *help*.
I wish it were that easy. It isn't, and you're more than foolish to think so. Kids these days have grown accustomed to living in an increasingly connected world. Copying one file to another folder is no big deal, why would one file to another folder on another computer? Not to mention, it's far more likely that an album gets downloaded, a song or two is sampled, and if it's worth it, it goes in the list of "Things I like" and if it isn't to their taste, it is just left on the hard drive until they need the space, when it gets deleted. (Another reason every download != a lost sale, btw)
The real fun part of the equation, assume the IP holders stay sue-happy for another decade-- how will they *possibly* get a jury member who hasn't shared files before?
Oh, that's right, game over. Thanks for playing.
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Respect has to be earned.
So what you are saying is that current authority figures have done nothing to earn the respect of the young.
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If the RIAA believes it reasonable to charge $80,000 US for each copied song, that means that the average monetary damages of a U.K. file sharer would be $248,000,000, or £150,613,385.15.
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I'm not going to spend £8 to £10 on something I can't return to the shop because I don't like it.
If somebody left a bottle of beer on a bar with a sign saying "Free Beer" wouldn't you take it? Don't blame the whipper flapper who's a bit thirsty, blame the sod who pinched it from behind the bar and left it as low hanging fruit!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3510560.stm
That is 50% of the "sample group" in this study. In fact, 1/3 of all UK youth in this group reported and admitted to binge drinking in one study. High school graduation rates are poor, unemployment is high, acts of vandalism, petty theft, and drug consumption are all at or near the all time high.
"So, 60% of the UK's kids have a mental disorder? All the more reason not to hunt them down and punish them, I mean, they're sick kids! They need *help*."
I didn't say that they have a mental disorder, I said "It's exactly like kleptomaniacs". The UK has some serious issues with misdirected youth, has had the problem for a very long time, and it is just getting worse. Since they are showing very little respect for anything else, why would you think any of them would have any respect for copyright law or the artists themselves? It's a take, take, take until I puke, puke, puke society, so download music far beyond any sane level of need isn't out of line for them.
Presented without context, the numbers are huge. Presented with context, the numbers are understandable and unacceptable.
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Ah, the internet. Such a wonderful invention.
An artist who doesn't authorize it isn't an artist.
They're the damn problem.
Artists create to share with the world.
These new "artists" today need to realize we didn't ask them to create their works, so where do they get off thinking they can charge us to enjoy it?
I've yet to charge everyone for the use of my applications every time its used.
Maybe I should start. From now one, every time my programming gets used, people owe me $1 damn dollar. No, $1.30, just to ensure it's DRM free.
Ha. I just put myself out of work.
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Re: Re: Re:
I don't drink and I have. That statistic is bullshit.
"High school graduation rates are poor, unemployment is high, acts of vandalism, petty theft, and drug consumption are all at or near the all time high."
That's right, be a good little citizen and listen to the news. Actual statistics show that crime rates are actually down, it's just that the ones that are there are more in your face thanks to the overzealous news.
"The UK has some serious issues with misdirected youth, has had the problem for a very long time, and it is just getting worse."
Then quit yelling at them to get off the grass, old man, and blame the people that diverse the blame, parents. They are the ones not instilling any respect for anyone into their children. What did you think would happen when we switched to "time out" as a primary form of punishment? This isn't relevant to anything anyways, it's not a cause of this "problem" (nor is it an actual problem to begin with).
"so download music far beyond any sane level of need isn't out of line for them."
My mom had more music than these kids when she was young. Yes, they were all in round black disks, but she still had shelves full. She's not the only one ether (my dad was the same way), the only reason everyone wasn't like that was because of the money. Now it's just a simple task of click, click and you have it.
Welcome to the digital age, the quickening of adapt or die.
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Re:
Insulting the majority of music fans isn't going to solve any problems, and will likely exacerbate the issue. I suspect downloaders listen like I do with streaming services, hear the first 15 seconds and skip forward until they get something they like.
The music business (not to confuse that with the plastic disc business) is booming, and sorting through the thousands of hours of new music is becoming increasingly difficult. I suspect this is root cause of massive downloading, not some compulsive thieving disorder as the comment above would suggest.
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And yet, the British live in what is fast becoming a bona fide police state.
Hmmmm...
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I also tend to copy all my tracks from cd to mp3 since disk space costs so little, I very rarely listen to most but its nice to have them there if I fancy a back catalog tour or have friend around who like different tracks
Or is it just easier to assign disparaging labels to people so you can write off their actions?
Personally I always thought that if the larger music companies would quit scalping people by charging extortionate rates for CDs, then MP3s then they could recover. I'm actually starting to think thats wrong - I think they've possibly been too gratuitously greedy for too long and in doing so have spawned a whole circumvention culture which is going to be hard, if not impossible to reverse
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When the record labels don't have the money, they don't bring new artists in, they don't move them through the system. Nothing new comes out the top. Then what?
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How sad are you that you honestly believe that music will suffer because a band doesn't have their IP swindled from them for cross-collateral, all-in 12 points and a 7 Album deal that probably will only see one album because they're not main stream enough to be "worth" the investment to an executive.
There's so much wrong with "standard" Record Label contracts that, after reading about it for a day or three, I find it hard to understand why anyone still signs them.
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Just asking since when I look out of my window I don't see any binge drinking hooligans, gangs or knife wielding hoodies, but I can see two CCTV cameras...
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New ways Vs the old ways
They didn't suffer when cassette recording became available and they won't suffer now, unless they decide to spend all their energies on the wrong direction.
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Everybody either downloads, or gets music from those who do.
And very few of them pay anything ever. Although just about all of them would be willing to contribute something if they knew the artist would get it.
It is part of the MAFIAA boycott.
Just that its not 100%. No money given, but they will still listen to the music.
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Re: Re:
Without any help from a "big label release" we've digitally distributed our album, sold physical copies and allowed for it to be listened for free on websites and spotify etc.
New music will always be out there.
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Re: Re: Re:
Please.
It's a take, take, take until I puke, puke, puke society, so download music far beyond any sane level of need isn't out of line for them.
I thought I had already gone over this. Hard drive space is cheap and abundant. Songs/Albums will be downloaded to "check them out" and most will probably fall into the "Meh." category, and remain on the hard drive until the need to clear up some space. (Assuming they aren't outright deleted.) Only a psycologist would assume this is some kind of impulsive need instead of the normal search for new likable music.
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Let the greedy 'Have a Cigar' bastards do more with less (like so many others), figure out a better way to carry on their business, or go bankrupt chasing civil awards from peniless children.
Businesses should be allowed to fail, no matter what industry.
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Quick people, grab your cameras and start taking pictures of the apocalyptic scenarios playing out.
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Re: Re:
BINGO the current authority figures have done ABSOLUTELY nothing to gain the respect of the young.
You don't earn respect trying to stamp out any and every attempt to express themselves and certainly don't by watching them via CCTV from the second they leave their house until the time they come home.
Talk about mixed signals they are told they have freedom but every time they start to use that "freedom" the so called "authority figures" say oh wait no, no, no you can't do THAT we meant you could only do what we want you to do which fits in this nice little box because when you go outside the box it rocks our apple cart.
The RIAA is just another example of "authority figures" trying to limit their freedom so of course they aren't going to pay any attention and most likely do the opposite of what the RIAA wants them to do.
It's surprising there are any teenagers in the world that aren't pissed off.
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Growing up to be such GREAT Politicians aren't they....
Sounds like this is the group that's headed into Politics when they grow up, and they are just trying to get a head start on all the illegal and immoral activity and get some practice at 'spinning' things when they do get caught (since we know they will, and they will just get out of it).
Their parents should be so proud, they are going to be great little politicians some day.... suppressing their constituants, pissing on peoples rights, squandering the governments resources, and then bitching about how they did 'everything they could' to help out....
NOT
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The pop music industry was built, after all, on a message of respect for authority. :-)
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Re: Your retail store is next!!!
"For me, it is an indication of a greater problem, one that lines up with the lack of respect for authority, the lack of respect for the risks of drink, and so on that are prevalent in UK youth culture today."
Are you serious...?
Part of the lack of respect??? This is a text book "the next generation do not respect the previous one" response and given without thought to changing technology or attitudes. A friend of mine made a similar comment recently when a number of us were together at my childs birthday, about the delinquent kids drinking cider on the park bench as he drove past. It did amuse me to point out that is was us in the park bench drinking cider 15 years ago and we turned out to be Doctors, Barristers, teachers, sales people, IT staff and bankers...
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It's easy to say "the authorities didn't earn our respect", but that is a truly horsecrap excuse. Civilized society can respect the rules and laws without loving every one of them. This mentality that you can randomly pick and choose which rules and laws to follow or ignore is a pretty big lack of respect not just for authority, but your neighbors and fellow citizens.
There is very little way to support the level of thievery that is going on right now.
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As for downloading, that's not a lack of respect for anything, that's keeping up with the times. And to an extent it shows more respect.
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Interesting Findign Buried in the Study
"More than half of those surveyed said that companies that manufacture digital music players and mobile phones should pay fees to artists to compensate them from losses due to copies made on their devices."
What they probably don't understand is that any fees paid by equipment manufacturers would 1) come out of their consumer pockets in the form of raised device prices and 2) would only go to artists indirectly via various royalty and industry groups.
But I do find it interesting that a majority of those surveyed know that they are getting content for free which they should be paying for, yet do it anyway.
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Now, with that said, I will agree that with some, it is like a kleptomaniac, or like the script kiddies and crackers who want to brag about how many systems they have access to, except the downloader thinks in terms of songs and movies. But with others, I think there is a certain amount of paradigm shift in the way folks think about music distribution (my wife would rather download individual songs from Tom Smith than to go out to purchase a CD with 10 songs, only one or two of which she wants).
One must also remember in this whole deal that with groups like the MPAA, RIAA and other backsides, they really don't want you to be able to do things like make backup copies, rip to your PC, etc. They would rather be able to charge you for a new CD when your old one has worn out, and would rather sell you the digital file to play on your MP3 player, and then sell you another one to play on some other device.
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I didn't turn out to be an anarchist out to ruin the world. I also have bought a CD or two in my day and respect the laws now. Not everyone grows up in your perfect little box and they never have. It's called being a kid.
Get over yourself.
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If crime is down in the UK, it's only because it reached a point of stupidity not that long ago. One report I saw had the percentage of 20 year olds with a criminal record was higher than the number with a school diploma. You really have to wonder at that point.
Downloading is just another lack of respect for property, for rights, and for artists. They know it is "wrong", and still they do it.
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Without citation or a link, I can easily infer that the laws in the UK are too strict, from that statement.
Downloading is just another lack of respect for property, for rights, and for artists.
When dealing with copyrights, you are not dealing with property-- you are dealing with a government granted monopoly. It is not property. It is not owned. It is *granted* for a limited amount of time.
Of all the injustices in the world, copyright infringement should be *way* down the list of rights we need to concern ourselves about.
If anyone has a lack of respect for artists, it's the record labels that swindle them out of the rights to their art through contracts they don't understand knowing they couldn't afford the lawyer's fees to have it explained to them, giving them a small fraction of the retail sale of their art *after the artist has paid back the loan*, yet the artists never gets the rights to their art back.
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Re: Ah, the internet. Such a wonderful invention.
Apply that to any other good you didn't ask someone to create but still ended up buying and see how asinine it sounds. What a ridiculous notion.
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Re: Interesting Findign Buried in the Study
I can't believe Mike neglected to mention this part of the article!
Why, it boggles the mind!
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Re: Interesting Findign Buried in the Study
Curious as to why you find that interesting? I would have only found it interesting if it had been the other way around.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"When dealing with copyrights, you are not dealing with property-- you are dealing with a government granted monopoly. It is not property. It is not owned. It is *granted* for a limited amount of time."
Right above that (and you even italic'ed it):
Downloading is just another lack of respect for property, for rights, and for artists.
what part of rights didn't you catch?
WHen you go off on a "it's not property" or an "it's not theft" direction, I know you ran out of material. Quite simply, that is the whipping post when you have nothing else to say. Got it.
"Without citation or a link, I can easily infer that the laws in the UK are too strict, from that statement."
It could also be that you are unfamiliar with the country, and that a few minutes of research online might enlighten you a bit.
http://www.ifs.org.uk/wps/wp0511.pdf - considering that only 76% of 25-34 year olds have what would be called a "high school leaving" in the UK (11 percentage points lower than the US), the actual graduation numbers are somewhere under 50% in normal time. 1.1-1.5% of the youth population is in prison at any given time in the UK. http://www.poverty.org.uk/33/index.shtml - Sine the vast majority of chargable offenses don't lead to jail time, the true number of youths involved in crime is significant in the UK - way above the US levels. You can also look at: http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/statistics/statistics066.htm
plenty of information out there if you care to take the time to learn.
"If anyone has a lack of respect for artists, it's the record labels that swindle them out of the rights to their art through contracts they don't understand knowing they couldn't afford the lawyer's fees to have it explained to them, giving them a small fraction of the retail sale of their art *after the artist has paid back the loan*, yet the artists never gets the rights to their art back."
The artists get to keep the most important thing, it's called "FAME". Ask Thom Yorke what fame is worth. Millions.
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I don't know anyone who has suggested that the concepts of IP are "mystifying" to kids. It's just that they don't care. They know about it, but they just think the concepts don't make sense. But pretty much every study I've seen says exactly what this one says. They know it's against the law.
But that's not very interesting at all.
And I don't think it shows any sort of "moral reservation" either. In fact, just the opposite.
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Probably true since we don't have school diplomas, but in my experience (wife, mother in law, brother in law, cousin are all teachers) a kid leaving school without a GCSE is unusual (of course it varies per school but it's low)
Contrast that to a report I read that highlighted the growing problem of gang culture in the US, which revealed that most kids leaving US schools are already a member of either the bloods or the crips, toting their freely available firearms every night; gangland killings are fast-becoming the norm in the US education system, right down to a pre-school level
It also went on to underline the dangerous no go areas that America's college dorms have become, with most American girls paying for their tuition via porn stardom and a majority of the boys drinking kegs of beer per night then going driving and looking for fights (presumably because their girlfriends are busy getting banged for business)
The only difference between your comment and mine is that I *know* I'm spouting ill-informed, media sensationalised horse shit
Seriously kids are kids are kids - practically the whole teenage sub culture thing was an import from America in the 1950s anyway, and right since the beginning one of the key underlying attitudes has been rebellion (that bits actually probably been around since before cave men), especially 'sticking it to the man' rebellion
Be careful how you reply however cos us Brits love to fight grrrrr [scary grimace]
;0)
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There is no battle
Many fought similar battles before you: when the VHS tape came out, when the C90 tape came out. There where plenty of "battles". (remember??) Even the band Metallica fought their (huge) battle against Napster.
Those are all long gone "battles" by many who instead of trying to capitalize on the new tech, they fought it.
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Thoughts don't change with age, they remain the same. See the Greateful Dead and many others freeying their music for everyone.
The only ones suffering from the p2p craze are the ones who can't keep up, and that serves them right.
Thore'll be many to take their place, don't you worry about it.
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Re: Re: Your retail store is next!!!
I know where you are coming from and mainly I agree with you.
However I can't resist pointing out (you are a Brit aren't ya) that as of today August 2009 you lot are the responsible for bringing UK's economy down, especially the bankers.
And I am not saying this lightly, without foundations... I am talking about having savings in UK banks that in 2001 could have bought me a decent home in Europe and due to me trusting the UK pound and having left the money there, in 2009 I have lost exactly a bleeding THIRD of it due to the people in the UK (Doctors, Barristers, teachers, sales people, IT staff and bankers) messing it right up for everyone.
No doubt they should have stayed off their cider when young but yeah, back then there was still the remains of the old Empire to live off of.
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