Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games

from the hey-kids,-get-off-my-lawn! dept

Mon, Sep 14th 2009 3:56am — Mike Masnick

I guess once you get old, all that "new stuff" is suddenly "bad" -- even if you used to be a rebellious rocker. With the recent launch of "The Beatles" version of Rockband, it seems that all sorts of other classic rock musicians have had to step up and talk about how awful such video games are. Bill Wyman from the Rolling Stones, Nick Mason from Pink Floyd, and Jimmy Page from Led Zeppelin have all come out as being against these games for one reason or another:

"It encourages kids not to learn, that's the trouble.... It makes less and less people dedicated to really get down and learn an instrument. I think is a pity so I'm not really keen on that kind of stuff." -- Bill Wyman, The Rolling Stones

"It irritates me having watched my kids do it - if they spent as much time practising the guitar as learning how to press the buttons they'd be damn good by now." -- Nick Mason, Pink Floyd

After first saying there was no way that Led Zeppelin would ever put out a similar version of Rock Band: "Obviously, there have been overtures made to Led Zeppelin, but if you start with the first track on the first album, 'Good Times Bad Times,' and you think of the drum part that John Bonham did there, how many drummers in the world can actually play that, let alone dabble on a Christmas morning?" -- Jimmy Page, Led Zeppelin

This sort of strikes me as the old rockers' equivalent of "hey you kids, get off my lawn." I'm sure when these guys were first growing up, learning their instruments and playing with their guitars and drums, that elderly musicians from a bygone era were complaining that what they were doing wasn't music and wasn't the sort of things kids should be mixed up in, because it didn't encourage them to play a symphony or something. Time to get with the times.

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Filed Under: bill wyman, jimmy page, musicians, nick mason, rock band, video games

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SteveD (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 4:16am

Encoraging not to learn
Can't help but think he has a point somewhere in there. Rockband might not 'encourage kids not to learn', but it certainly doesn't do anything to encourage them to learn. By giving kids a shortcut to the thrill of playing a great song, perhaps it will have a negative effect on learning.

On the other hand, perhaps it will just lead to less rubbish guitar players bothering to learn in the first place.
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theskyrider (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 4:22am

In defense of 'games'
My daughter recently played 'Rock band' or 'Guitar Hero' or whatever the PS3 version game is over at a friends house. When confronted with her wanting to get a PS3, I made a compromise.

Instead of purchasing a very expensive game console and game, I purchased her a real guitar, amp, and Guitar Pro (she already has a computer). Total was about a third of the cost of a PS3 and now her friends come over and play the real thing. (Usually while I am at work, and no request has been made for drums yet.)

She watches YouTube for Guitar and Piano lessons, and is actually doing very well. (All parents say that, I know.)

Bottom line? Cheaper to learn the real thing, but it was the game that got her started; thank goodness I didn't have to buy THAT.
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Richard, 14 Sep 2009 @ 4:33am

How on Earth does he know???
The computer "simulation" of instrument playing may or may not be similar enough to real playing to constitute positive as opposed to negative training. To answer that question you need a training simulation expert and a research budget. (although a musician might be useful as an adviser).

By giving the feeling of playing more easily than the real thing does it may well encourage more people to take up an instrument.

Sounds like a kind of inverted jealousy to me.

"How dare they get the pleasure of playing without all the hard work" is what these guys are really saying.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 4:47am

As usual, Randall has it perfectly summarized: http://xkcd.com/359/
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Mark Murphy, 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:00am

Buttons
"if they spent as much time practising the guitar as learning how to press the buttons they'd be damn good by now"

Let's make a slight adjustment:

"if they spent as much time practising the [pipe organ] as learning how to press the buttons they'd be damn good by now"

Instruments change over time. I'm sure an organist from the late 1800's would have a same attitude towards electronic keyboards as Mr. Mason has towards Guitar Hero/Rock Band guitar controllers.

You can see the same progression with drums. What started out as skins on canisters ("acoustic") has, for many bands, turned into synthesized drum kits and drum machines. Eventually, we might see "drummers" playing drums sans sticks, using synth pads more like bongos. Or, you might see "drums" played just as another form of keyboard.

None of these are "wrong" any more than bands using "electric guitar" are wrong compared to acoustic guitar. Once upon a time, I'm sure there were musicians that attacked Mr. Page for his choice of instrument as well.

Now, the difference is that few (if any) bands are using guitars that are controlled by buttons versus strings...yet. Someday, perhaps sooner because of these games, we will see bands using "real" instruments that work like these controllers.

The bigger question is when will somebody cook up a version of these games that allow for music creation, as well as their current role in music mimickry. Following the masters is a time-honored tradition in learning to play instruments. But, until people can use these games to make new music as well as play along with existing music, the games will stunt growth...but not because they use buttons instead of strings.
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some old guy, 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:10am

Re: Buttons
*whoosh*

That whoosh you just heard was the sound of the point going way over your head.
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IAmAI, 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:13am

I think the problem is is that these musicians assume that music video games are some kind of substitute to creating music. While arguably playing such games recreates the pleasures of playing a real instrument, it is a poor analogue of playing a real instrument and it certainly isn't a means creating original music. Music video games are means of experiencing existing music in a new way, and really isn't 'playing' or creating music at all.

I can only presume that before music video games, kids where inspired to become musicians by simply listening to music, enjoying it and wanting to create their own. So if passively listening to music is enough to encourage kids to learn, surely than the activity of playing music video games can too? Perhaps some kids will use it is an excuse to their parents to get of learning a real instrument, but I think kids dedicated and open minded enough to learn a real instrument will see music video games as a source of inspiration and an important part of enjoying music.
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simon phoenix, 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:20am

I have to disagree. i think the "elderly" musicians are right. in my mind, this is the next step past loop collections for wanna-be musicians (wanna-be...NOT want-to-be). it is not an outdated concept to want to be good or great at something or to want to know how to actually do something well. as a first step for children, these games are interesting and fun even, but i think that at a certain point it would be even more fun to use these dalliances with toys to inspire those same individuals to learn for real. in fact that could be a brilliant business plan for someone who is enterprising. a guitar hero pro edition with actual strings and interactive lessons. at that point, the whole concept is pure genius and leaves everyone involved better off than before they discovered the game, rather than just pushing buttons and looking silly.
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reboog711 (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:23am

Well....
I tend to believe that the games do very little to teach people about playing real instruments. If you approach them as educational tools, you probably will be disappointed.

I can respect Jimmy Page's sentiment that "our songs are too complex to be simplified down like that." I'm not sure if I completely agree.

I would think such games would inspire people to want to learn to play real instruments, though.
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thublihnk (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:24am

I think music games are having the exact opposite effect. I played Guitar Hero, loved it, bought a guitar, sucked at it, put it away.
Guitar Hero is a GAME. Where was the outcry from dancers when DDR came out?
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Tor (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:30am

Re: Well....
I would think such games would inspire people to want to learn to play real instruments, though.

Exactly. The games are no replacement for really learning to play an instrument, but if the games make kids twice as lazy but ten times more interested in music - then there might be five times as many diligent kids who want to learn to play the real instrument.

I'd say that's a good thing.
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Designerfx (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:37am

reverse psychology, duh
rockers and the media are super smart at manipulating people, I'd say this is likely reverse psychology flat out. Remember, anything parents reject is cool for kids, etc.

meanwhile, most parents reject it a little for that reason but don't overall *mind* rock band.
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Richard, 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:46am

If you read the link...
Alex Rigopulos, co-founder of Harmonix Music Systems, which created the Rock Band series, refuted the musicians' claims.

"Most people try to learn an instrument at some point in their lives, and almost all of them quit after a few months or a year or two," he told the BBC.

"This, I think, is because the earliest years of learning an instrument are the least gratifying.

"When people play Rock Band, however, they very quickly get a glimpse of the rewards that lie on the other side of the wall.

"We're constantly hearing from fans who were inspired by Rock Band to start studying a real instrument."

you will see that the creators of the game have a pretty good defence.

'nuff said I think
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Bugsy, 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:48am

Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games
Give a real guitar to the world champion ROCK BAND kid...he is clueless. All those hours mastering a plastic interface, wasted.
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Gryffin, 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:51am

Gotta agree with the musicians
It's not abotu "having the fun of playing in a band, without all that pesky practice." It's about turning kids interested in music into consumers, rather than creators.

No matter how inspired you are, you can't play a new melody or riff or rhythm or lick in those games: you're limited to just aping what's been pre-programmed. If you want to play more than what the game offers, well, you can just buy the latest new edition for $50!

So while actually playing a real instrument fosters creativity, and hopefully inspires the next generation of real musicians, these games do nothing more than give kids some of the thrill of playing, in exchange for a steady revenue stream to the publisher.

Just wait a few years until this generation grows up, convinced that "music" is just banging away at pre-programmed content. If you think what passes for "music" now is hollow and derivative, you ain't seen nothin' yet!
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Yogi, 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:56am

Idiots
What a bunch of old farts.They probably have no idea what it's like to play these games.

That's like saying that playing table soccer will discourage you from playing real soccer or playing monopoly will discourage you from making money, or playing any simulation of anything will discourage you from doing it in real life. It just makes no sense at all.

It's so funny that these so-called rebels have become so conservative.But I guess they were always pretty dumb.
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Shawn (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 5:57am

Re: Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games
Put a six foot tall flag pole and a machine gun in the best Call of Duty players hand and drop him in an active firefight and tell him to return the flag to your base and he is dead..

Put a football in the hands of the best Madden 10 players hands and stick him in the back field of an nfl game and he is crushed ...

what is your point really it is a GAME the outcome of mastering any video game has never really been the equivalent mastery of real world talents why should music games be expected to create musicians when sports games are not expected to create athletes ?
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Rocketboy_X, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:03am

Re: In defense of 'games'
As I've said elsewhere...

"No kidding, for as much as I've spent on my TV, Surround Sound System, the Gaming Systems themselves, controllers, and games, I might as well just bought a gun and shot someone in the face."

Sure, your daughter may have the time and drive to learn an instrument. The rest of us older folks have already spent the time and effort to learn an instrument, and now we just want to spend our twilight years having fun.
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what?, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:05am

Re: Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games
So kids can't have fun with a video game anymore? They have to be able to master the real world version of it as well?

So when a 10 year old plays Call of Duty they should be given a real gun and dive head first into a war?

When college students play Madden NFL they should be expected to play as well as T.O.?

Playing Gran Tourismo is a waste of time because I'm not actually street racing?

Video games are meant for entertainment and FUN, not substitutes for real life. Although the Allegory of the Cave isn't a bad metaphor.

You, sir = FAIL
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Tek'a R (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:09am

re: Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games
by Bugsy

re: Gotta agree with the musicians
by Gryffin

we get it, pops. really, we get it. You don't like these newfangled toys them dang kids have today, but try a little harder to know what you are waving your cane at.

Just like no-one assumes HALO will teach them how to be a cyber-enhanced super soldier in the future, no-one assumes Guitar hero or Rock Band or anything else will teach them how to play an instrument. They are timing and reflex games, for goodness sake, that happen to be put to music and use a fancy controller.

Playing Pac-Man didn't make an entire generation run around in dark hallways eating pills and hiding from ghosts, and Guitar Hero wont somehow convince that button-pounding is the same thing as playing a guitar. Of course, a large and growing number of people, after enjoying these "hollow" games, are going out, buying real instruments and really learning them.. what do you say to that?

Or the increase in classic rocker record sales after they are experienced through this new media, helping a new generation connect with the music that came before them.. I guess none of these creaking old billionaires really care about all that..
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Flyfish, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:09am

I'm sure the games are fun. But really kid, get a guitar and learn to play it for real.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:14am

Bad Comments
Seriously guys, despite projecting your own feelings about musical instruments onto a bunch of kids, just remember that they are kids.

They are playing the game to have fun. That's it. It isn't about learning guitar or creating music. The kids just want to have fun. It's a way for them to interact with the music.

This is about kids enjoying themselves with music. If the kids were dancing, it would be the exact same: a waste of time, offensive to old farts, and a lot of fun.
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Tek'a R (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:16am

Re: really kid
really kid, get a horse and buggy and learn to drive for real.

really kid, get a stick and learn to hunt for real.

really kid, put down that brush and come learn to spit paint on the cave wall for real.

congrats, Flyfish, you managed to miss the point of Games And act condescending towards anyone who ever touched one.. at the same time! While entirely missing the point of the article as well.. golly.. well done. well done.
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Call me Al, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:17am

Re: Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games
Wait what?

You seem to be suggesting that Rock Band is actually just a training tool for guitar players which is ridiculous. Of course that kid would be clueless if he has never played an actual guitar before.

Now take a guitarist and put an X-Box 360 controller in his hand and tell him to complete Halo 3 on hard. He would be equally clueless.

Its a different interface and comparing them is ridiculous.

As for Rock Band, I love the game and play it regularly with friends. I used to be a drummer and so often find myself on them and enjoy playing along to classic rock tunes. Despite a lot of practice I was never good enough to play such things but now I can pretend that I am and have fun. Which is... lets face it... entirely the point!
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Robert, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:18am

I kinda agree, and I'm not "old" yet
I kinda agree, and I'm not "old" yet, I'm only in my mid 20's.

It's surprising how many people think they really know how to play guitar thanks to Rock band, and think it's the same thing. The explanation was "electric guitars" are actually digital and have buttons under the frets. The strings are just for looks.

I'm surprised I didn't get an instant nose bleed overhearing that on the train from some teenagers.

So yea... I see where they are coming from.

I consider Rock Band to Guitar/Drums as a synthesizer is to classic piano.

And I'm not even a guitar snob, though I did take lessons and still own a Fender Strat (a REAL guitar).
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Richard, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:27am

Re: Gotta agree with the musicians

No matter how inspired you are, you can't play a new melody or riff or rhythm or lick in those games: you're limited to just aping what's been pre-programmed. If you want to play more than what the game offers, well, you can just buy the latest new edition for $50!

and why would that be?

Something to do with the licencing deals and the concept of derivative works?

Maybe they're worried about the kids putting in their own CD's - or worse still putting in music the got from bit-torrent.

After all the "locked up" game is quite a good form of DRM isn't it?

when something looks "consumer" rather than "creator" oriented you can be sure that somebody's "rights" have entered into the equation somewhere.

and whose "rights" would be involved in this case?
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Gunnar, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:32am

Re: Buttons
"If they spent as much time practising the guitar as learning how to press the buttons they'd be damn good by now."

That's not even true anyway. Without lessons, after a year you're still going to be pretty crap at guitar, but you'll have 5-starred every song on Rock Band.
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WTF?, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:52am

Re: In defense of 'games'
"A third of the cost" of a PS3? The cheapest you can find is $310 at Target for a guitar/amp combo (not a good one either) and Guitar Pro is $60 bringing you to $370. A PS3 is $299. Sounds like the PS3 is the better deal!
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Drugs are bad mmmkay!, 14 Sep 2009 @ 6:56am

Re:
"Playing Pac-Man didn't make an entire generation run around in dark hallways eating pills and hiding from ghosts"

Um, yeah Pac Man came out in the 80's, so people did play it then go run around dark halls popping pills...or dust.
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Fushta, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:06am

Re: Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games
Actually, that kid who set the world record on Guitar Hero (song was Through the Fire and Flames) is also a trained violinist, per his bio.
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Comboman, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:09am

Can't have it both ways
Video game critics claim violent games will make kids want to imitate the game and do real violent acts. Now they're complaining that music games will make kids NOT want to imitate the game and do real music?
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ok, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:11am

Re: Gotta agree with the musicians
"these games do nothing more than give kids some of the thrill of playing, in exchange for a steady revenue stream to the publisher."

EXACTLY!!! And there is nothing wrong with wanting to play a game that is meant for 1 - 4 people having fun by just picking up the toy and pressing the ON button!!

WOOOO!!!

Keep in mind, before guitar hero came out, music schools were at a low enrollment rate, ever since these games came out, the music schools are booming.

GO FIGURE?!?!?!?!?!!?!?! OMFG!~!!!!
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chris (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:12am

Re:
As usual, Randall has it perfectly summarized: http://xkcd.com/359/

every single moment in life can be accurately represented by either an XKCD or a penny-arcade comic strip.
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MBraedley (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:15am

Re: If you read the link...
I was going to say that there was evidence of people taking up guitar because of Rock Band or Guitar Hero, but couldn't point to that evidence. Thank you for doing so. I'm pretty sure I heard something similar from music teachers saying that they have seen an increase in interest for guitar lessons, although (again), I can't point to the evidence.

Of course these plastic instruments aren't a replacement for learning the real thing (although the drums do provide a pretty good analogue). But is that really the point? No, the point of these games is to provide a fun and engaging group experience (again, see the reference to xkcd). The exact same reason why the original Halo was such a resounding success. Two XBoxes between you and 7 of your friends and you had a party. It makes you wonder why someone is promoting what is ostensibly a solitary activity (you need to be able to play guitar before you can even consider being in a rock band) at the expense of a very communal activity. (Yes, I know, Rock Band can be played alone, but so could Halo.)
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Fushta, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:16am

New Generation Gets Hooked on Old Generation Music
People are going to have their opinions about whether the guitar simulation genre is good or bad.
Two good scenarios arise, no matter how you look at it, though:
1) Beatles Rock Band is opening up some of recent history's best music to a whole new generation of music lovers. How many teens would've purchased (downloaded) any Beatles songs before this vs. after?
2) These games improve hand/eye coordination and train the brain to think faster, and anticipate, as well as improve memory. This is from my own experience playing Guitar Hero.
Also, I would absolutely love to see a Led Zepplin version of Rock Band.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:24am

Re: Buttons
Keytar?
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Richard, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:33am

Re: Can't have it both ways
Video game critics claim violent games will make kids want to imitate the game and do real violent acts. Now they're complaining that music games will make kids NOT want to imitate the game and do real music?

Yeah and sharing music destroys the music industry whilst sharing illegal pornography encourages that industry.

Also we must give up our civil liberties in the west because "the right to life" (protection from terrorism) is more important than democratic rights, privacy etc but then our soldiers have to sacrifice their lives (and civilian lives) in Afganistan in so they can have their democratic rights - i.e. an election.

Don't expect sense...

The political sphere is biased in favour of action and will latch onto any argument that allows some action to be taken.
Examining policies for contradictions is not a strong point.
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hegemon13, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:33am

Disconnect from reality
"It encourages kids not to learn, that's the trouble.... It makes less and less people dedicated to really get down and learn an instrument."

Wow, really? Funny thing, cause last I heard, sales of real guitars and guitar lessons have increased DRAMATICALLY since the advent of Guitar Hero/Rock Band. In addition, it DOES teach some basics about music. You may not learn how to actually play a guitar, but you get hands-on lessons on rhythms, time signatures, etc. You may not see them on paper, but you learn some of the fundamentals of music. For those who were never in band in school, it introduces them at a level where they can say, "Maybe I could do this."
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Bubba Gump (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:36am

Re: Re: Buttons
*whoosh*

That whoosh YOU just heard was the sound of Mark's point going way over your head.
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hegemon13, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:43am

Re: Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games
"Give a real guitar to the world champion ROCK BAND kid...he is clueless."

Is that a fact, or an assumption? Are you sure that the kid has not gone on to learn real guitar?

"All those hours mastering a plastic interface, wasted."

The same can be said for ANY world-champion gamer. This is nothing new. Although, given that the top prize for those tournaments can be pretty substantial, I don't know how much those champions would agree about the "wasted" part. In general, though, I agree that spending that much time with a video game is a problem/waste, no matter what the game. But it is the person's inability to moderate their gaming habit that is the problem, not the game itself. Personally, if a child is spending time playing Guitar Hero rather than the latest GTA sequel, I think that's a positive thing. (Not that I have anything against GTA in general. I just think that parents who let their eight-year-olds play it ought to be smacked in the head.)
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chris (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:47am

Re: Elderly Classic Rock Musicians Don't Like Music Video Games
Give a real guitar to the world champion ROCK BAND kid...he is clueless. All those hours mastering a plastic interface, wasted.

give a plastic guitar to a real guitar player and he fails epically. all those years mastering an instrument don't translate to a kids game.

and that is why you see the reckless video game hate.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:50am

Well....where wer they when Karaoke took over the world?....Oh thats right cashingt thier checks......
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 7:58am

Re: New Generation Gets Hooked on Old Generation Music
I have played guitar for twenty years. Guitar Hero helps build two basic physical skills required to play guitar: 1) Rhythm, and 2) Coordination between the left and right hands. These two skills are pretty big stumbling blocks for beginning guitarists. Any advancement in those areas can help speed the learning process and let beginners move forward with mastering chord shapes and playing actual songs.
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chris (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 8:00am

Re: Buttons
The bigger question is when will somebody cook up a version of these games that allow for music creation, as well as their current role in music mimickry. Following the masters is a time-honored tradition in learning to play instruments. But, until people can use these games to make new music as well as play along with existing music, the games will stunt growth...but not because they use buttons instead of strings.

video games as musical instruments is here and now, it's just not mainstream yet:
http://www.nullsleep.com/more.php

and there is a ton of chiptune and circuitbending music out there.
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Apples to Oranges, 14 Sep 2009 @ 8:14am

Re: Buttons
I understand the point you're trying to make, but your logic, I'm afraid, is flawed. You are talking about different means of producing music, which I agree has changed greatly over the years. However, games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band do NOT promote the production of music. The game itself plays the music, music that has been produced by somebody else. These games do not promote a new method of producing music. Instead, they promote the process of stifling creativity in our youth and turning them into a bunch of button-pressing monkeys.

If somebody wants to invent a guitar that makes sound electronically by pressing buttons, and it becomes all the rage, well then fine. But I can guarantee you it will have a LOT more buttons than the stupid controllers for these games do, and people will still have to actually learn how to play them and produce music with them, as opposed to just matching colored blobs on a TV screen.

Now, for those that think I'm a hateful old miser, I'm actually 26 years old. I do enjoy video games from time to time, and I think others should as well. And these games could have some positive benefit, such as fostering a love for music. However, obsessing over the game so that it rules your entire life is not healthy. If kids enjoy the music that much, I would hope they would be inspired to pick up real instruments. I tend to believe that if kids actually picked up real instruments and learned to play them, even if they don't do very well, they will feel a much greater sense of accomplishment than just pressing buttons on a piece of plastic.
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scarr (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 8:23am

Re: Encoraging not to learn
Playing Rock Band encouraged me to, and helped me learn how to, play the drum kit.
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tiggerbat, 14 Sep 2009 @ 8:31am

jealous
In this debate we seem to be overlooking the veritable throngs of 60-somethings lined up to buy Beatles Rock Band. This is SO not just about kids. As for the educational value, they're still experiencing heightened synaptic function by developing eye-hand and left-to-right coordination. Now get off my grass.
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Brent Bonn, 14 Sep 2009 @ 8:38am

The evolution of Simon Says
As an actual guitar player I'm conflicted. Yes, Rock Band is a game... and it's fun. I also think that it COULD provide a gateway/encouragement to pick up an actual instrument. On one hand, GH/RB controllers exercise hand eye coordination and pattern recognition skills that are necessary to play real instruments. On the other hand they risk building up false confidence in ability that could result in frustration and feelings of failure when they realize that the real instruments are exponentially more difficult to master. For those of you saying it's just an evolution of actually playing an instrument, and perhaps instruments of the future will resemble GH/RB controllers... until they make a controller that has a button for every position on a fretboard, by my calculations you'd need a GH controller with about 132 buttons, give or take. It's more of an evolution of Simon Says really. "Simon says press the blue button"
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Luci, 14 Sep 2009 @ 8:54am

Re: Re: In defense of 'games'
Target's prices suck, and you forgot the cost of Rock Band. I can certainly get a set-up cheaper than that.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 9:35am

Re: New Generation Gets Hooked on Old Generation Music
1) Beatles Rock Band is opening up some of recent history's best music to a whole new generation of music lovers. How many teens would've purchased (downloaded) any Beatles songs before this vs. after?

The Beatles are an exception where the art was not owned by any of the living artists. Steve Jobs has tried to get The Beatles in iTunes since like 1960s, but the music, masters, and copyright has been controlled by a one-pony IP hording company who hasn't wanted to create artificial scarcity by preventing release it.

I think this was the ATG company that Michael Jacko had 1/2 ownership in and MJ had a fight with Paul McCartney and decided to buy the music and not release it anymore.

Quite an evil thing to do.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 9:40am

Re: Re: New Generation Gets Hooked on Old Generation Music
Sorry, it was ATV/Sony and Michael Jacko.

Original Quote:
I think this was the ATG company that Michael Jacko had 1/2 ownership in and MJ had a fight with Paul McCartney and decided to buy the music and not release it anymore.

But still, to buy up a set of copyrights with a goal to prevent royalties to be collected/disbursed seems real, real evil.

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/06/jacksons-death-puts-lucrative-beatles-copyrights-in- play/
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Grammar Nazi, 14 Sep 2009 @ 9:41am

One again...
Please learn about apostrophes and how not to be like totally baffled by them. It's 2009. Learn about them. An apostrophe is just a text character. Learn how to deal with it. Please.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 9:43am

Sounds like sour grapes to me. They're just mad that it's not "Rock Band: Rolling Stones Edition", or "Rock Band: Pink Floyd Edition", or "Rock Band: Led Zeppelin Edition"

Musicians: just a bunch of whine-y little girls.
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roxanneadams (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 9:44am

I wish I could remember what rock musician this quote was attributed to - for some reason, I think it was Robert Plant. In the 70's, a band trashed a hotel room, created an absolute menace, kept other guests up all night with their racket, even threw furniture off the balcony and into the pool. In the 90's, some of these same musicians were touring again, and they stayed in the same hotel, only this time, one noted, the only thing you could hear was one musician telling everyone else to be quiet, because his kids were trying to sleep.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:06am

Re: The evolution of Simon Says
I'll add something to that: it is also the evolution of the air guitar. I am 43 yrs old and have played GH 2x in my life, on the easy level. Enjoyed it a lot. I would probably get the game if I had time to play it. I still play my air guitar though (just as fun and 2x the silliness..) So I say, 'Kids, keep on rockin' however way youcan!'
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aguywhoneedstenbucks (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:18am

Re: Re: Re: In defense of 'games'
And it'd be a better set up as long as you didn't buy into the Starcaster or whatever retardation they're peddling these days.
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Doug B (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:23am

Re: Re: Buttons
Huh?

No one is talking about "obsessing over the game so that it rules your entire life". They're talking about silly musicians claiming that somehow video games will dumb down society. It's the same tired claim that's been made since the early 80s.

It's getting old. Really old.

I'm never going to be good enough to play Cliffs of Dover on a real guitar. So what's wrong with me pretending on GH? I mean how does that negatively affect me or anyone else?
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Ben (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:29am

Daley Thompson
I wasn't putting off running by playing Daley Thompsons challenge, but I did give up my plumbing dreams after playing Mario.
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Alan Gerow (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:37am

Re: Re: In defense of 'games'
Target also sells a Fender acoustic guitar with gig bag, stand, picks, extra strings, strap, electronic tuner, beginner guide ... for ~$150.

Also, if you don't go to Target, and you go to an actual music store, you can get a guitar & amp for
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Alan Gerow (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:39am

Re: Re: Re: In defense of 'games'
grrrrr, setting the option as Plain Text, and it still tries to recognize HTML? to complete the post .... you can get a guitar & amp for ...

<$200
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Alan Gerow (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:40am

Re: Re: In defense of 'games'
Or we spent our younger years learning an instrument, only to find out we aren't really all that good. :X
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Sean, 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:45am

Wow Mike.
"I'm sure when these guys were first growing up, learning their instruments and playing with their guitars and drums, that elderly musicians from a bygone era were complaining that what they were doing wasn't music and wasn't the sort of things kids should be mixed up in, because it didn't encourage them to play a symphony or something."

This isn't so much old, famous rockstars "not with the times", as much as it's old, famous rockstars confused why these children aren't actually pursuing legitimate musical talent by playing real instruments, and instead prefer to hit buttons and flap a paddle.

The artists have a very legitimate point - why not just learn the real instrument?

You can't see this Mike?
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gr8oldies (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:51am

Re:
"Or the increase in classic rocker record sales after they are experienced through this new media, helping a new generation connect with the music that came before them.. I guess none of these creaking old billionaires really care about all that.."

I agree with that, At the classic rock station where I work we noticed a big jump In calls from young kids. Took us a bit to connect the dots but it was just after "guitar hero" was released and most of the songs they requested were songs on the game. I just think the old farts are getting crabby in their old age, I see it as good thing that they are enjoying the classics.
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VX, 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:51am

The first two quotes are from parents who are annoyed that their kids don't have any dedication or attention span. The third quote is just all ego, basically saying that there is no point putting Zeppelin songs in the games because they are so good that you couldn't simulate them simply enough that people would enjoy playing them. He just doesn't understand how the game works. This is fine, he is old and rich so he doesn't have to and likewise we are free to dismiss his opinion as uninformed.

I can understand the first two points in that these guys could be watching their kids play a fake guitar for 4 hours a day when the same amount of practice would make them proficient on the real instrument in under a year. I would be inclined to dismiss this as parental frustration. I'm sure Bill Wyman and Nick Mason would have similar things to say about other video games, tv, and any other form of nonproductive "pure" entertainment. In the past parents would encourage kids to develop a hobby that had more real world applications, most kids now probably watch six hours of tv a day or have thumbs of steel from all the gaming (I am also an avid gamer so this is not a dig against gaming).

Truthfully it is all just bad parenting. As a kid I was allowed 1 hour of tv on weekdays and 2 on weekends (only before 10am though). I got a super nintendo for christmas and the rule for that was I could play it for one hour a day if my homework was done, maybe longer if the weather was bad (my parents were generally inclined to kick us out if it was sunny). I was fine with that because that was the rule and we had plenty of other rules that seemed to be just as random. Kids just don't have rules anymore, parenting is more of a I am your old friend with money and occasionally I will refuse to buy you things if you don't meet some minimum requirements. I don't think this works as well.
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btr1701 (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:54am

Music
> I'm sure when these guys were first growing
> up, learning their instruments and playing
> with their guitars and drums, that elderly
> musicians from a bygone era were complaining
> that what they were doing wasn't music and wasn't
> the sort of things kids should be mixed up in,
> because it didn't encourage them to play a
> symphony or something.

That analogy doesn't quite work because while the old musicians may not have appreciated the new kind of music, it *was* music and the kids *were* learning how to play musical instruments.

With these Rockband games, they're not learning how to do anything but press video game control buttons on a remote that's shaped like a musical instrument.

I'm not against these games or saying kids shouldn't play them-- by all means if they enjoy them, they should have at it. At least Rockband isn't an ultra-violent game where kids rack up points for shooting cops and raping prostitutes. But to pretend that the kids who play Rockband and somehow learning anything about musicianship is silly.
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btr1701 (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:58am

Re: Re: Encoraging not to learn
> Playing Rock Band encouraged me to, and helped
> me learn how to, play the drum kit.

Ah, so it's a gateway drug... ;-)
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Bill, 14 Sep 2009 @ 10:59am

Not always
I've never really played Guitar Hero or Rock Band much, but my Dad did a lot and after a while he started wanting to do more than the game would let him so he learned how to really play a guitar. Playing games like Guitar Hero doesn't always lead in a negative direction.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 11:00am

Living Proof
I have been playing Rock Band drums now for about 8 months, progressing in difficulty from medium to hard/expert. I've enjoyed it so much and had such a fast learning curve that I am now enrolled with a drum teacher and am getting lessons.

One of the key factors that helped me to learn drums (other instruments do not have this) is the level of feedback. A big hurdle for drummers is independence, in my experience RB has helped me ENORMOUSLY in separating my right foot from my hands.

Also, for those that don't know, Roland has created drum software to plug in one of their kits to a computer and learn drums using similar "falling blocks" to RB with another mode that is notation. It allows for import of any MIDI file to instantly play any song.

So to those who think that RB is just silly, I would point to where I am after a few months of playing RB as proof that it can be a huge incentive for people to learn a real instrument. I can also point out that before a single lesson I was able to play along with a guitarist using only the simple beats and patterns I'd memorized from playing the game.

Sure, I can't play "Good Times, Bad Times" but at least I'm learning an instrument and getting inspired by that song. Rockers sometimes forget that the majority of people who play music do it as a hobby to relax. How is the game any worse than that? It's a healthy hobby that helps me to unwind after a hard day.
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rose, 14 Sep 2009 @ 11:07am

you all might be interested in this story I found comparing the beatles' rock band with the new guitar hero 5. check it out over at on the button: http://onthebutton.wordpress.com/2009/09/09/rockband/
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btr1701 (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 11:08am

Re: Re: Buttons
The true test of whether these games are "real" or not is whether guys who are really good at Rockband tend to get laid as much as guys who are really good at playing a real guitar.

It's a well-established rule of the universe that chicks dig musicians, so if being a Rockband stud gets you laid, then I guess it must be the real thing.
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Abe, 14 Sep 2009 @ 11:08am

Dance Dance Revolution
When I first encountered the Dance Dance machine I figured it was totally ridiculous. I saw several people playing and figured they had to have some natural talent as when I got onto the machine all the lights and arrows just flew right by me. Several years later I ended up playing with a crew of friends and realized that anything I'd like to become "good" at was merely a matter of practice, and not talent. I am now at a point of producing electronic music with real instruments, and would argue very heavily that my days of dance dance gave me a great sense of rhythm as well as an understanding that this was still well within my grasp baring I put my all into it.

I think these games can be a really great inspiration and jump off point to people that will become musicians. It will always be a game, but trying to jump right into be able to read music, keep rhythm, and learn a new instrument can be a daunting task at the start. Games like this can serve as a really great entry level activity related to music.

Not to mention when I get in on my Korg ESX-1 Music Production Sampler, the sounds are all generated by buttons. It's very much like a game. I can make a huge range of guitar noises or any other instrument of my choosing. As little or as much as anyone from the past likes it this is where music is going in the future.
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MarksAngel (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 11:10am

My Kid wanted the real thing
My Cousin Bought my son an xbox 360 last year for christmas, along with guitar hero. My Son really enjoys playing the game, but playing it made him want the real thing. So We got him his first guitar and he love's playing it. I think if a kid interested in playing music this will just make them want it all that much more, but if they we're never that interested to begin with, then it's just another game to them.
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shawn, 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:01pm

I'm no young'n I'm 38 years old.. have never in my entire life wanted to learn how to play an instrument. Believe it or not, we do exist. But, i friggin love RockBand.... it comes out for most of our parties and my partner and I play together for an hour or more 3x a week since release.
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Fushta, 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:07pm

Re: Living Proof
Of all the "instruments" in RB/GH, the drums are the most realistic: hit pad with stick, make noise. Not much different from real drums.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Buttons
No, I don't think Mark got the point. Playing a "geetar heeroe" game controller isn't the same as playing a "real" musical instrument of any kind, except perhaps the metronome. I understand the "geez - it's just a game" sentiment, but I really can't see the benefit of these games for producing real musicians other than 1) learning to play in time and 2) thinking it's cool to have skill when dealing with music.

Let's try an analogy: Does Mario Cart prepare someone to drive a Formula 1 race car?

So there are to forces at work:

1. Older people not understanding the difference between a game and the real thing.

2. Everybody else not understanding the difference between a game and actually learning a real world skill.

Be careful, people. Idiocracy is just a heartbeat away ...
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Buttons
Grr. Posts should allow editing. "to forces" should be "two forces"
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Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:20pm

Re: Wow Mike.
This opinion is limited and short sighted. All you're thinking about are the kids that have any form of talent for the actual instrument. You're basically telling the kids who can't, or have no interest in playing a real guitar to go screw off, they have no place learning anything about music. You're also shrugging off the kids who have no interest until they play the game. What about all those just in these comments who have learned to play for real because of this game?

No, this game will not teach you how to play a guitar, it helps with stamina, timing, and gives respect for a real guitarist. The drums help more (a much smaller step to playing for real), and if you master the singing part than you could probably sing for real. These games also introduce people to new songs and old songs that probably never would have been heard before (when was the last time you heard "And Your Bird Can Sing"?)

To shrug this game off as a waist of time is closed minded and somewhat discriminatory. It's like saying if you can't play in the NFL than you have no business learning about it.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Buttons
What a tool you are! The drum kit on those games is as hard as the real thing. Once you learn to play those "geetar heeroe" game controller drums, you can play the real thing within a couple of hours with a bit of practice.
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Griper, 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:25pm

Re: Re: Encoraging not to learn
That's because the drums in rock band is the closest to the real instrument, Well not counting the Keytar, way to go 80's
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JEDIDIAH, 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:35pm

Re: Well....
These games are a bit of escapism. No one has any
delusions. If anything they give people an easy
feel for what's involved and what the experience
might be like. It might even encourage people to
pick up a real instrument or appreciate real
musicians more.

Just try to "play" the more interesting songs from
Metallica and NOT come away with more respect for Kirk.

(I still think Lars is an idiot)
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Mike Masnick (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 12:59pm

Re: Wow Mike.
This isn't so much old, famous rockstars "not with the times", as much as it's old, famous rockstars confused why these children aren't actually pursuing legitimate musical talent by playing real instruments, and instead prefer to hit buttons and flap a paddle.

Same point could have been made when they were first learning guitar or drums. Those weren't "legitimate musical talent" when those commenters were growing up either.

That's the point.

The artists have a very legitimate point - why not just learn the real instrument?

Because it's a game?
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Matt S (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 1:34pm

Re: Can't have it both ways
I think this should get some sort of best comment award.
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weneedhelp (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 2:19pm

Former Rolling Stones star Bill Wyman has expressed concern that music games like Rock Band stop young people from practising real musical instruments.
I think this TD article is pushing to make a point that is not there.
The Bill Wyman article does not say he does not like music video games, he says:
"It makes less and less people dedicated to really get down and learn an instrument. I think is a pity so I'm not really keen on that kind of stuff."
Me either. If my kid can spend 5 hours playing the "game"; then why not really learn an instrument?

Nick Mason goes as far as to say:
His words were echoed by Pink Floyd star Nick Mason who described music games like Rock Band and Guitar Hero as "interesting new developments". Interesting new developments - hardly a statement of dislike. Then:
"It irritates me having watched my kids do it - if they spent as much time practicing the guitar as learning how to press the buttons they'd be damn good by now."

That does not prove or disprove if they like the video game genre, they dont like the dumbing down of their children, and think that the time would be best spent on the real thing. Go wonder, a musician with that sort of view. What a crazy world.

Poor poor Jimmy. Dont know what he was smoking that day. I know plenty of drummers that can play Zepp tunes, and do them great.

"how many drummers in the world can actually play that"
More than YOU think Jimmy.
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andalou (profile), 14 Sep 2009 @ 4:12pm

grain of salt
RB and GH is "Simple Simon" shaped like instruments. Not that there is anything wrong with that, because they are games. But this is a far cry from learning the ins and outs of a guitar, an amp, a foot petal and effects. Setting up a "real" drum set, learning how to keep a beat, using a sound board or an actual microphone. Can playing a game actually lead to playing an instrument; yes. But it seems a lot of gaming sites are looking like haters with their comments. This article points its jab with the word "elderly". If I was Jimmy Page, and I didn't believe that that this product would truly help young musicians learn to play an instrument, why would I hand over my master tracks for the gaming companies to convert me and my band into to some lame ass avatar. Maybe these "elderly" musicians hope their music alone is enough to inspire upcoming musicians.
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btr1701 (profile), 15 Sep 2009 @ 7:59am

Re: Re: Wow Mike.
> Same point could have been made when they
> were first learning guitar or drums. Those
> weren't "legitimate musical talent" when those
> commenters were growing up either.

Huh? Guitars and drums have been around for centuries. No one alive today can claim that talent on either instrument wasn't legitimate during their lifetime.
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Andrew D. Todd, 15 Sep 2009 @ 11:41am

Instrument-Playing as Calligraphy.
Think what you might do if you wanted to to make the physical act of writing difficult. You would get rid of the computer, of course, and other keyboard devices such as typewriters, and also the pencil, and insist on the use of the pen and un-erasable India ink. You would require a pen that did not have an internal ink reservoir, and which had to be periodically replenished by dipping in an inkwell. The pen would have a broad angled nib with a narrow edge, and the scrivener, to give him his traditional name, would be expected to form letters with thick and thin lines in appropriate places, and to add appropriate ornamental curlicues and flourishes, the kind of thing you see on diplomas and suchlike. That was the normal mode of writing in the middle ages. In the end, you would reach a point where most people did not have the skill to write things down in an acceptable manner, and handwriting would become a "mystery." That is approximately where instrumental music is.

Now, let us do the opposite. Let us think about how to make instrumental performance easy. Let us devise an improvement on the Theremin. Imagine a device more or less similar to a Wii-Mote, which can be manufactured to sell for ten dollars or so, cheaper than almost any kind of real instrument, because all of its precision elements are packed into a chip or two. Now, take the following conventions: Left-Right is pitch, similar to a piano keyboard; In-Out is tempo; Up-Down is volume; Clockwise-Counter-Clockwise is note length, relative to tempo; Grip Pressure is pitch oscillation, ie. trilling. In these terms, music has a physical shape, and it is possible to draw music in the air in front of one. Alternatively, you can visualize music with a pair of data-goggles. Most people can draw well enough to communicate, not as well as a trained artist, of course, but sufficiently to get an idea across. Just about everyone can sing after a fashion, again not as well as a trained singer, but sufficiently. This device I have described is not a toy. It is a real instrument, and an extremely versatile one.

My guess is that such an instrument would be enough to produce a "decimation" of pop musicians, similar to what happened to movie actors when sound movies came in, circa 1925-30. Just about everyone who could hear a given effect would be able to reproduce it. There would not be a gap between reading-literacy and writing-literacy, so to speak. Someone like Bill Wyman would no longer be admired for his "penmanship"-- he would be obliged to demonstrate the quality of his ideas and the quality of his character.
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Cat, 16 Sep 2009 @ 8:16am

Whoosh...
Why people think life long, accomplished musicians don't know what they're talking about is beyond me. Got to agree, that whooshing sound you hear is the point going over your heads.

It's not that these "old geezers" just don't "get" these new-fangled technologies, or don't want kids to have fun. It's that RB/GH reduce real music, real musicians and the real genius of people like Bonham, Page, Wyman, Mason and the Beatles to the level of bad cartoons. Whee, it's so much fun pushing buttons like a trained monkey! These
games could be even more rewarding if they were attached to a device that drops a few Skittles into a bowl when the players do really well...

Page isn't dissin' Rock Band; he's saying Rock Band would be dissin' John Bonham, who was a real human being, who worked incredibly hard, whose MUSIC has inspired who knows how many drummers. Good for him for not selling that legacy out so people can dabble at it on Christmas morning. Instead, get a turntable and some head phones and LISTEN.

Zeppelin didn't put out singles either, although they could've made a lot of money and reached more people that way. Yet somehow they are still one of the best selling and most loved bands of all time. How can that be? Maybe, it's the music?
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Vinny Stefanelli, 16 Sep 2009 @ 8:59pm

Games are not real !
These guys grew up studying music, mastering their instruments and their art. They developed real skills and expressed real creativity. Perhaps it wasn't the type of music that their elders appreciated BUT IT WAS MUSIC not like these games which are at best, creative masterbation. O.K, games are fun and good social pastimes but NOT MUSIC, NOT ART.
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Flyfish, 17 Sep 2009 @ 7:59am

Re: Re: really kid
I play plenty of games. But as a musician I personally find games like rock star to be rather pointless. Perhaps I'm projecting a since when I fly my caldari command ship in eve I'm in fact wishing I was able to fly a real caldari command ship. When I strap on a Spitfie in IL-2 I'm wishing I could fly a real one, something that isn't feasible in my income bracket. Unlike my virtual possessions in eve-online or IL-2 guitars are pretty much accessible to anyone who wants one.

As Frank said "Shut up and play yer guitar"
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poker rakeback, 18 Sep 2009 @ 8:57pm

Sounds like the older musicians are having trouble relating to kids these days. I do find it interesting that although they criticize these games, they freely participate and profit of the use of their name and songs. Stop burning both ends of the candle and decide if you are for or against it.
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Brooke Saunders, 30 Nov 2009 @ 11:48am

Led Zeppelin
I guess the older rockers will have to get used to things changing! Check out www.jamesfortunephotography.com for some great Zeppelin pictures from their heyday. Incredible shots!
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noctis, 3 Oct 2010 @ 1:04am

actually if u'r a musician or a music player such as me(i'm not qualified enough to be called a Musician..i'm still a newbie LOL) who already tried the real thing and got up on stage with all of those crowd and stuff...playing a guitar hero or rock band is not cool enough anymore..coz we already try the REAL THING...but the positive side of those music video games are to bring those younglings interest to REAL music they used in the games(coz most of the songs are came from the band which are our Forefather in music...legendary songs and bands! the roots)...nowadays music quality somehow are decreasing...just my opinion tho..coz some of them only played "NOISE" but there's no harmony or soul in music it self...i'm a 19 years old boy in a GLAMROCK band called ROXXASS from Indonesia...CMIIW guys :D

MUSIC 4LIFE
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