Bob Dylan Gets Around Service Fees & Scalpers With A Simple Plan: Pay Cash At The Door

from the that's-one-way... dept

Mon, Aug 23rd 2010 10:39am — Mike Masnick

In our recent post about musician Joe Pug and other artists looking to get away from ridiculous service fees on tickets, commenter berick pointed out that Bob Dylan has come up with an interesting strategy to not just get around service fees, but scalpers as well: no pre-bought tickets to the show, just pay cash at the door:

When Bob Dylan says his just-announced, surprise show at the Warfield in San Francisco next Wednesday, August 25 costs $60, he means it costs $60 -- no service charges. No scalpers. No secondary market. In fact, perhaps as an effort to combat all complaints about the ticketing industry at large, there simply won't be any advance tickets to the show. Fans will pay $60 -- cash only -- on their way inside the venue, and that's that.

Of course, the downside to this is that if too many people show up (a decent possibility) you might not get in at all... Still, it's interesting to see how musicians are trying to get around activities that are seen as anti-consumer when it comes to pricing live shows.

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Filed Under: bob dylan, cash, scalping, service fees, tickets

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Anonymous Coward, 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:08am

If to many people show up it could be Woodstock style again, put a projector on the outside and let people enjoy.

Ok, I know it is a dream those things will never happen again because there are so many regulations today and the police is a pain in the butt.
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Hulser (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:14am

Festival seating
Of course, the downside to this is that if too many people show up (a decent possibility) you might not get in at all

Or you might just get killed. The Who concert tragedy in Cincinnati was a big part in the elimination of "festival seating" where people got seats on a first come, first served basis. Wouldn't selling tickets at the door be, in effect, the same thing as festival seating? Maybe this would work for local bar bands, but for big name artists like Bob Dylan, it could spell trouble

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_The_Who_concert_disaster
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Hosermage (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:25am

How about selling different tiers of seats at the door... so it wouldn't totally first come first serve, and people who want to pay for premium seats can still do that.
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Michael Kohne, 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:26am

The Venue
As long as the venue puts on appropriate security, and they sell specific seats (so folks aren't fighting in the seating areas), this should go well. The important part will be to make sure they can control the crowds at the ticket window, and the local traffic. If they can do that, this should work out just fine.
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Danny, 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:27am

It would be nice
If there was some way to put up a giant sign showing how many spots are left that way people could gauge whether or not they would have a shot at getting in.

Well there is also purchasing over the web. I've only done it a few times but when I did I had to pay with a debit/credit card, print out the confirmation, and show it and photo ID at the door. Aren't those thing usually non-transferable (meaning that I can't buy 12 seats and try to sell them off at a higher price because those 12 seats are attached to my card and ID)?
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Matt (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:29am

I'm not sure if this is possible, but a lot of people have smartphones so why not sell tickets via an app, which could then download a non-transferable code to the phone which the venue would then check against a database. You would have to find some kind of uncrackable drm though.
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Patrik, 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:29am

Re: Festival seating
I agree. This has tragedy written all over it.

Hopefully the bulk of Dylan's fans are a little older and wiser than the average concert crowd and they'll be able to avoid any stampede frenzies.

Scalping just seems inevitable and it's profitable for the scalpers, so why are we criminalizing a whole generation forward-thinking "entrepeneurs"?
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trilobug, 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:30am

But but...
What about all the struggling ticket companies that rape the shit out of the consumer.
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PaulT (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:30am

Re:
My guess is that would work for some, but still means that things this move is meant to eliminate - scalpers, service charges, general rip-offs - would still apply for the premium seats.

If this becomes a regular thing, some kind of balance would need to be found between 100% up-front (leading to rip-offs) and 100% on-the-door (potentially risky and leaves out those with day jobs who can't queue for half a day for the most popular concerts).
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:30am

Warfield
The Warfield in SF only has seats upstairs in the balcony which is tiny and apparently not a good view. The main floor is standing only.
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Matt (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:32am

Re: It would be nice
It would only be non-transferable if you confirmed with your credit/debit card, what about people purchasing tickets, ending the credit card and selling the card though.
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ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:34am

Re: Re: Festival seating
You realize that the method of selling seats has nothing to do with how those seats are distributed, right?
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ChrisB (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:35am

Re: Festival seating
> Or you might just get killed.

The Warfield has no built-in seats, but the photo gallery shows concerts with folding chairs set-up. Festival seating is typically first-come first-serve _standing_ room only. I think you mean "general seating".

Of course, scalpers are a natural side-effect when markets aren't free. If all tickets were auctioned, scalpers would disappear. I sympathize with artist who want to make their concerts affordable. It would make more sense to have some sort of tiered fan club, and then the "superfans" could enter into draws for the chance to buy cheap tickets.
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Pierre Wolff (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:46am

Reservations
Since it's open seating, they should have at least set-up a basic "take a number" reservation so as to avoid unruly crowds showing up and potential for fights or other ugly behavior as venue begins to sell out.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:47am

in other news
a robber stole thousands of dollars from people standing in line for bob dylan as he knew they all were carrying cash.
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Danny, 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:50am

Re:
"You would have to find some kind of uncrackable drm though."

Talk about a double edge sword. On one hand an unbreakable DRM would work in your idea but...if someone did manage to come up with a truly unbreakable DRM every industry that handles electronic media would have a collective orgasm over the idea of finally have a away to "protect their industry".

And besides saying your DRM is unbreakable is literally an invitation for every hacker/cracker/etc... from all around to make a name for themselves.
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PaulT (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:56am

Re: Festival seating
Not necessarily. While the crowds were a factor, it seems that other things contributed including (going mainly from your Wiki link):

- Poor communication (the crowd panicked because they thought the sound check was the actual concert).
- Not enough doors were opened due to union and other restrictions.
- Inadequate security (why else would people sneaking past turnstiles be a reason not to open doors?)

As for the difference between this and "festival seating", I'm not familiar with the specific terms but what I understand (again from the Wiki) is that the latter doesn't necessarily include allocated seats. So, the only problem with that is that people rush to try and get the best seat, which is a problem when combined with poor crowd control and communication. If the seats are allocated at the box office, this shouldn't be that much of an issue as long as everything else is in place.

It's all opinion at this point, but I doubt that merely eliminating Ticketmaster from the equation is going to lead to further tragedy without some very serious lapses in other areas. Changing the way tickets are sold should not lead to other problems so long as the crowds are handled correctly (which is necessary even with pre-sold tickets) and the venue does not oversell past capacity and cause rushes/panics (again, this should already be controlled).
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Hulser (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:57am

Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
You realize that the method of selling seats has nothing to do with how those seats are distributed, right?

1) Festival seating - People buy their tickets in advance, but there is no seating assignment. People form up in a huge queue and rush to get in the door so they can get a good seat.

2) Selling tickets at the door - People form up in a huge queue in front of the door so they can be first to buy a ticket for a good seat.

Some of the details may be different, but they're similar enough that it seems like the net effect could be the same.
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Beta (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 11:59am

Re: Reservations
And what do you think a low number will go for on the street? This defeats the purpose of the exercise.
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Hulser (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:06pm

Re: Re: Festival seating
So, the only problem with that is that people rush to try and get the best seat, which is a problem when combined with poor crowd control and communication.

I don't think how the seats are allocated is the relevant similarity. The problem, in both festival/general seating, is that you have a huge crowd of people who are incentivized to be "first".

With festival or general seating, you don't have any seat assignments, so in order to get a good seat, you have to get in the door first.

With selling tickets at the door, you don't have any advanced tickets, so in order to get a good seat, you have to get to the box office first.

Think of all the big holiday sales. People getting trampled on because their trying to rush the door. Yes, in theory, they're supposed to form an orderly queue, but in reality, the first people in the door get the good stuff. All I'm saying is that having a huge number of people standing around all trying to get a limited resource is a bad idea.
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Beta (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:07pm

Look at it another way.
Instead of deciding how people should get tickets, try coming up with a good way for them to fail to get tickets. Seriously, there are more people who want to see the show than seats, so some of them won't get in; what should happen with them? Should they find out that the tickets are too expensive? Or that the show sold out in two minutes and they missed it? Or that there was a mailing list they should have gotten onto (somehow) six months ago? Or should they show up to stand in line only eight hours in advance and find crowds of more devoted (or less employed) fans ahead of them? Or should they take part in a lottery and lose? Or some combination of these?

If you don't like these options, suggest a better one; if you don't like to choose a failure mode at all, be aware that by suggesting a way to distribute tickets you are choosing a failure mode.
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Beta (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:19pm

Re: Re: Festival seating
"If all tickets were auctioned, scalpers would disappear."

And the tickets would be just as expensive as if the scalpers were in business, maybe a little more so. It would be a little more convenient, and the money that the scalpers make would go somewhere else. Why exactly are we trying to get rid of scalpers again?
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PaulT (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
You're still identifying the problem as properly organised crowd control and communication, not the methods by which tickets are sold.
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Joe Dirt, 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:29pm

Re: Festival seating
There are still many places that have no assigned seating and sell tickets on a first come first served basis without incident. Part of the tragedy surrounding The Who concert in Cincinnati had to do with not enough staff and far too few entrances open to allow entrance to the venue. The Warfield is also nowhere near the size of the former Riverfront Coliseum.
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George L, 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:43pm

It's about time...
It's about time somebody big sees the problems in the ticket industry.

I stopped going to concerts several years ago because I just could bring myself to keep paying extortion fees for the privilege of paying exorbitant prices to watch somebody I already paid to be able to listen to their album.

Yea, Bob Dylan!
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Hulser (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:45pm

Re: Re: Festival seating
The Warfield is also nowhere near the size of the former Riverfront Coliseum.

I think you're making my point for me. I would think that a large number of people trying to get into a smaller venue would be even more likely to be a problem than a large stadium.
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Hulser (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:49pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
You're still identifying the problem as properly organised crowd control and communication, not the methods by which tickets are sold.

The artist can't always guarantee that the venue will provide the right level of crowd control. But what they can control, at least in this case, is setting up a scenario where a lack of good crowd control can lead to a tragic event. I'm not saying that The Who concert was caused exclusively by festival seating, just that it was a large contributing factor.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:50pm

Re: Re: Festival seating
"If all tickets were auctioned, scalpers would disappear."
This would absolutely INCREASE scalping.
A large portion of scalper revenue is based on people that want shows at the last minute, and will pay an elevated price for doing so. An auction would allow scalpers to bid large portions of tickets at the lowest possible amounts, and sell later at the highest possible markup because the seats are in high demand.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
- Act as an unauthorized agent that reduces the cost/benefit to the consumer. Consumers can and will get screwed with scalpers running the sales.

- Scalpers sell fake tickets.

- Scalpers artificially raise the price of tickets, reducing demand. Ticketmaster does this as well, it is their ubiquitous nature in the vast majority of events that allows it to continue.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:56pm

Re: in other news
A robber was beaten soon after as the crowd outnumbered him 8,000 to 1.
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kryptonianjorel (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 12:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
But why would it have to be that way? Couldn't you have barracades set up to direct a peaceful flow of traffic, like at amusement parks? And inside the venue, you could have security staff direct the seating. You sit where they tell you to sit.

Or, they could sell the better seats first, at a higher price, then worse seats for less.

Or, they could sell tickets at the door, get em in the section you want, pay, and immediately have your stub taken. This prevents scalpers, and also gives people assigned seating.
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kryptonianjorel (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 1:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
Ok, the fake ticket thing is a legitimate concern, but that is illegal anyway, selling fake goods.

Otherwise, what is wrong with the other 2 points? Doesn't the first sale doctrine fall into this somewhere? Someone buys a bunch of tickets, and wishes to resell them. He has the right to set his own price, whether it be more or less than what he bought them for. People have the ability to buy from him, or the venue.

This is basic free market, supply and demand.

Its like saying if I bought 50% of all of the frosted flakes in the U.S. and decided to sell them for $1 per box, I shouldn't be able to? If people want the cereal, they'll buy it. If the price isn't right, they'll go home empty
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PaulT (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 1:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
So, you're dismissing an entire business model because it's possible that the venue is incapable of performing crowd control correctly? Seems a little bit of a flimsy excuse, based on an accident that happened over 30 years ago in a venue that was probably pretty primitive by today's standards in many ways.

Again, I know what you're trying to say, but I think it's misplaced. You seem to only be considering the worst-case scenario based on a single data point.
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Hulser (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 1:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
So, you're dismissing an entire business model because it's possible that the venue is incapable of performing crowd control correctly?

In so many words, yes.

Seems a little bit of a flimsy excuse, based on an accident that happened over 30 years ago in a venue that was probably pretty primitive by today's standards in many ways.

Every year, there are people trampled, sometimes to death, when a crowd of people are trying to get into stores with large holiday sales. So, it's not just one event, thirty years ago.

Why is it such a controversial idea to suggest it's a bad idea to tempt fate? If you have a potentially large groups of people trying to gain access to a limited resource, it's a dangerous situation. If you have good crowd control, you can avoid problems, but it's an inherently dangerous situation. There are plenty of other business models that don't involve the risk of people being trampled to death.
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Hulser (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 1:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
Couldn't you have barracades set up to direct a peaceful flow of traffic, like at amusement parks?

Maybe they could charge extra for renting these baricades and all of the additional security to handle a potentially rowdy crowd. Maybe we could call this extra charge a "convenience fee".
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JC, 23 Aug 2010 @ 1:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
You don't seem familiar with the concept of an auction.

I doubt scalpers would be able to outbid people interested in going to the event. And even if they did, they would have paid more for the tickets than the market has valued them almost ensuring that they lose money.

Additionally, assuming you are correct and everyone wants to buy tickets at the last second (something you can't do now unless you buy from a scalper) then they are clearly willing to pay. What would the problem be?
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JC, 23 Aug 2010 @ 1:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
Someone gets trampled at a Walmart every Thanksgiving.

I don't think you can call this a single data point.
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Matt (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 1:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
This is essentialy what happened at the Love Parade. Police failed to stop people entering and a bottleneck caused several deaths.
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Matt (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:19pm

Re: Re:
you could use passport style photo verification, instead of uncrackable drm, you would need to take a photo of the ticket buyers (which cannot be changed at any point) with the phone at time of purchase and photo id them. Almost uncrackable (unless you use plastic surgery (a bit extreme for concert tickets)).
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Matt (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:20pm

Re: Re:
you could use passport style photo verification, instead of uncrackable drm, you would need to take a photo of the ticket buyers (which cannot be changed at any point) with the phone at time of purchase and photo id them. Almost uncrackable (unless you use plastic surgery (a bit extreme for concert tickets)).
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PaulT (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:22pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
...and what's the crowd control situation at a Wal Mart? Do they have proper barrier setups, security staff properly trained to handle large crowds, etc.? Unlikely - it's further proof that proper crowd control is needed.

Apples & oranges, in any real comparison. To my mind, the best comparison would be a club, and how many stories do you hear of people getting crushed there? The only difference between them is the fact that people don't necessarily need to get into a club before a specific time, but the crowds can be controlled easily if properly managed.
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PaulT (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
"If you have good crowd control, you can avoid problems, but it's an inherently dangerous situation."

As is any concert or club. How many people die or are injured each year due to violence, drug or alcohol abuse, poor electrical or fire safety in the venues, etc? Not many, certainly not enough to stop most people from thinking twice about going to most events, but it happens.

There may be a higher risk, but it's minimal. You're almost certainly going to be more likely to die in a car or plane crash on the way to the gig than at the gig itself, whatever ticket system is used.

You're suggesting that such problems are inevitable, I simply disagree.
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Matt (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
Couldn't you have barracades set up to direct a peaceful flow of traffic
They used crowd control baracades at Love Parade and it caused a bottleneck mainly because, the entrance was too small and people weren't going all the way on to the site they were staying at the enternce (where they could see the bands just as well) blocking the way for people trying to enter and leave. If you could overcome those problems, maybe have more than one big entrance/exit or have seperate entrance and exit queues it might work, but no promoter would try it, just in case.
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PaulT (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
That was more of a problem with the venue chosen (the public streets) and overcapacity than anything else:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Parade#2010_accident

"the number of people attending allegedly reached 1.4 million - the original expectation was around 800,000 -, whereas police believed around 400,000 people were present... Safety experts and a fire service investigator had previously warned that the site was not suitable for the numbers expected to attend."

So, yes, poor communication, overcapacity and poorly prepared security - things that are much more controllable at an actual concert venue.
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Matt (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
So, the only problem with that is that people rush to try and get the best seat.

That's fairly easily sold, randomly alocate seats to tickets (and be vocal about it), meaning there would be less reason for crowds to rush to the gates or doors.
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Matt (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:41pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
its the same but in a city. unless you have a building with a lot of exits (unlikely) or a large queueing area (unlikely, because most venues are in cities)the same thing can happen. Out of town venues there is less of a problem as long as they're are well prepared and have a larger capacity than expected.
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TtfnJohn (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 2:58pm

Re: Re: Festival seating
The experience of the Vancouver Winter Olympics illustrates that scalping went up which was why the auction idea died so quickly.

In the end nothing stopped scalpers and I have ask why we're sidetracked onto scalping when the bulk of the price for an event ticket these days, other than what the artist charges are ticket "administration" fees that are more than I pay the scalper once I deduct the ticket fee extortion.
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Beta (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 3:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
"Scalpers sell fake tickets."

I hadn't heard that. It's a serious and interesting point, but I think it's unrelated to what we're discussing here.

"[A scalper acts] as an unauthorized agent that reduces the cost/benefit to the consumer"

(I think you mean increases the cost/benefit.) Compared to what? The price the consumer could get in an auction is about the same. And if their unauthorized status is the problem, heck, someone could just authorize 'em, problem solved.

"Scalpers artificially raise the price of tickets, reducing demand."

I'd say they naturally raise the price of tickets. And I'm not sure what you mean by "reducing demand", since I find it hard to believe that scalpers are left holding many tickets after the show (and I never studied economics).
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 23 Aug 2010 @ 3:27pm

This works best when everyone can get a ticket
I've collected cash at the door for some shows. And I've stood by and watched as door guys did the same thing.

You won't likely have a problem as long as everyone waiting in line is likely to get in. There may be people who come after the show has sold out and they get turned away, but as long as everyone has a reasonable expectation of getting in, panic isn't like to set up.

But everyone's concerns about crowd control are likely to be very real if demand for tickets greatly exceeds capacity. You don't want to whip up the crowd into a frenzy.

You might want to give everyone who wants a ticket a number in advance (probably online), like you get at the motor vehicle department, so they know in advance if they can get a ticket.

Scalpers could probably get numbers, too, but if you required that a photo id must match the ticket holder, then perhaps you would reduce the number of people buying more tickets than they personally can use.

Some of this process already duplicates what ticket sellers do, but if you eliminated credit cards and everyone had to pay cash at the door, it should reduce some of the charges that come with ticket services.

But this gets back to some of the questions I asked during the Joe Pug thread. Even venues that sell their own tickets directly usually want a cut of the ticket. So you've got to work out a relationship not only between the artist and the fans, but also between the artist and the venue, and if there is a promoter, will the promoter need a cut, too? If the artist is taking the cash, then some of it probably needs to go to the various entities involved. If the venue is taking the cash, the artist needs to get paid. If the promoter is taking the cash, then both the artist and the venue need to be paid.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Aug 2010 @ 4:05pm

"Bob Dylan Gets Around Service Fees & Scalpers With A Simple Plan: Pay Cash At The Door"

Expect the local (or some) govt find a reason to further tax it.
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onemorels, 23 Aug 2010 @ 5:04pm

so much for traveling to a concert . . .
Dylan's idea is simplistic but also very shortsighted. It pretty much eliminates anyone who has to travel to see shows. Go to the expense of a road trip and a hotel room to stand in line on the chance you Might get in ? . . don't think so . .
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Aug 2010 @ 5:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
Scalpers take money that should be going to the Band, his Manager and the RIAA.
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Moonlight, 24 Aug 2010 @ 1:00am

whatever.
i think ticketbastard and the scalpers are peeing in their pants (whilst posting a bunch of fearmongering nonsense in here). go bob!

yes ticketbastard, this ain't no eddie vedder. see, now you've pissed off bob dylan and you're about to find out he's batman.
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SEO Manchester, 24 Aug 2010 @ 1:11am

Warfield is standing-only. This idea is workable providing there is enough security at the time when venue is near sold. Anyway well done Bob.
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leo perez, 24 Aug 2010 @ 3:20am

Dylan Tickets
And what happens to those fans who live in other cities or countries?? With this new system of purchasing tickets, they would never get to see their favorite groups, Dylan in this case, because they would not have the chance to buy a ticket. And if they get to the venue in time, what are the chances of their getting a ticket if too many people show up?.
There sure are other ways of controlling scalpers and the like.
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Phil T. Listener, 24 Aug 2010 @ 3:57am

Re: Re: Festival seating
So is that what we are classifying scalpers as these days?
forward-thinking entrepreneurs"?
Back in the sixties we called them "slime".
Those are the kind of bottom dwellers we could do without.
They are up there in my book with banks, wall street investment houses, etc.
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Richard (profile), 24 Aug 2010 @ 4:12am

Re: Re: Re: Festival seating
Run the auction like a share offer and close it very close to the event start. Those who made "marginal" bids will need to keep checking the cutoff price right up till the last minute but otherwise it solves all the problems.
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diana, 24 Aug 2010 @ 9:20am

tickets.
I think its brilliant of Dylan and the other artists trying to get rid of scalpers and the ridiculous money charged by the corporate takeover of ticket services.
This is how I remember concerts back in the day- not necessarily general seating though.
You went to the Filmore,(or wherever) you paid your money, got your ticket and went in.
Maybe you could by tickets at the venue window in advance-if memory serves , yes, I think that was available and eventually some local record stores (yes, records) would sell them.
It was so long ago and admittedly the memory is a bit fuzzy but one thing is clear- it was not the huge rigamarole, redtape and expense over and above the price of the concert.
Not to mention being unable to get seats close up and personal even if you get on line the moment the tickets go on sale. The scalpers hit first somehow.
I've often wondered if ticketmaster and the others reserve blocks for scalpers for a generous fee.

I'd love to see ticket window sales again- even with advance sales AT THE VENUE would cut back on some scalpers tricks- particularly if technology was employed to limit the number of seats one could purchase via smartphone, email- something.
Many good ideas and suggestions here.
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 24 Aug 2010 @ 9:45am

Re: tickets.
There are venues that still sell tickets at the window. And for a lot of shows you can either head to the window in advance (which can be a problem if you live somewhere else) or you can take you chances and get them right before the show.

And actually we are reverting back to that sort of system anyway. As people learn they can often get tickets cheaper by waiting, they are learning to wait.
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Beuger, 24 Aug 2010 @ 10:17am

Performance Bob Dylan
In itself a good idea but what about the handicapped people who cannot line-up for hours and people living in another country, who occasionally like to attend a concert and don't know this in advance?
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Beuger, 24 Aug 2010 @ 10:29am

Performance Bob Dylan
Op zich een goed idee, maar hoe zit het met gehandicapten die niet kunnen line-up voor uren en mensen die in een ander land, die af en toe graag een concert bij te wonen en dit niet van tevoren weten ?
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Beuger, 24 Aug 2010 @ 12:04pm

The translation of comment nr. 61 is not mine and absolutely absurd.
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Phil T. Listener, 24 Aug 2010 @ 4:18pm

Re: tickets.
I remember well at The Fillmore (East) for me.
Tickets $3.50, 4.50 and 5.50.
Show such as
Elvin Bishop - Opening Act
Allman Bros. - Special Guest Stars
Johnny Winter And - Headliner

Bands such as Mountain, Airplane, Jethro Tull, Santana etc.

Those were the days(yes they were),those were the days.
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J, 24 Aug 2010 @ 6:57pm

Nothing wrong with scalping.
Personally, I don't see why scalping is illegal. If I buy an item and decide to resell it for a higher price (meaning as high as I want) why is that illegal? I paid for the ticket -- so its mine to use or not use or to sell -- at my leisure.

If someone else was too slow, so what? Move faster next time. Anti-scalping laws are stupid, just my opinion.

(No I've never scalped at ticket, but it just makes perfect business sense to me).
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 24 Aug 2010 @ 7:25pm

Re: Nothing wrong with scalping.
And the argument has been made that if there is a market for ticket resales at a higher price, then the original tickets were too low to begin with.

And what has been pointed out in some discussions about ticket resellers is that often they are actually doing the selling on behalf of the artist. The artist wants more money, but doesn't want to price the tickets so high. Therefore some tickets are immediately taken off the market, sold at a higher price, then the money goes back to the artist and/or promoter.

Another argument has been that ticket resellers provide a service by grabbing tickets on behalf of people who don't want to spend the time on the computer trying to get them. These busy fans would rather pay more money for them instead.

But now what has happened is that many concerts aren't selling out so prices are dropping and you can get discounted tickets directly from the promoter and ticket seller. The secondary market is getting killed because people are figuring out they can get tickets to some big name artists for as low as $10. In this economy the live music industry isn't the sure thing it once was perceived to be.
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Jesse, 25 Aug 2010 @ 9:22pm

reply
I have been to 11 Dylan shows (a small number compared to some). 8 were General Admission floor seating where I lined up hours and hours before the show. I have never run into the slightest problem of losing my spot because someone tried to budge. There was one time where the venue planned poorly and lost our line, but there was still no physical danger whatsoever.

Also in response to "In itself a good idea but what about the handicapped people who cannot line-up for hours and people living in another country, who occasionally like to attend a concert and don't know this in advance?"

I live in the U.S. I would love to see this show. I can't. It is Dylan's choice to perform where he wants (or his management but same difference). We aren't entitled to get to see him. Its a blessing and a great experience, but we aren't entitled to it.
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Jesse, 25 Aug 2010 @ 9:29pm

cont.
And to clarify, all those GA shows where shows where everyone in line waiting got let in at a particular time and had a free for all to get the best spot. Once again, no issues. I always got a spot that I 'deserved' based on when I arrived in line. What's more, I've never seen anyone not get a spot they deserved and never seen anyone else get hurt or trampled.
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Judi, 26 Aug 2010 @ 9:38pm

Re: Look at it another way.
"Or that there was a mailing list they should have gotten onto (somehow) six months ago?"

Even when you are on the "special mailing list" & call in/ go online for the pre sale the second tix go on sale, the good seats are still scalped ...
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Suzanne Lainson (profile), 26 Aug 2010 @ 10:03pm

The concert didn't sell out
Bob Dylan's No-Ticket Show No Sell-Out : SFGate: Culture Blog!:

"By comparison, much pricier tickets for Dylan's concert the night before at the Fox Theater in Oakland sold out within an hour, fees and all.

Lefkowitz thinks a few factors worked against the 'ticketless' model, which admitted concert-goers on a first come first served basis.

'Some people may have been intimidated by the line,' he said. 'Some people maybe didn't like the idea of leaving home without a ticket; the uncertainty. Most of his fans probably have jobs so to get here before 6 or 7 p.m. was probably a stretch. It was challenging.'"
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