Grooveshark Tries To Force Digital Music News To Unveil Commenter, Ignoring First Amendment

Google Sued Because Some People Wonder If Jon Hamm Is Jewish

from the they-should-just-ask-adam-sandler dept

Tue, May 1st 2012 3:52pm — Mike Masnick

We've written about a bunch of court cases around the globe, in which Google was sued (and often found liable) for the results of its autocomplete feature, which suggests popular searches based on what users have typed. For reasons that still are unfathomable to me, courts seem to think that Google should somehow be considered responsible for displaying what its users are searching for. These kinds of lawsuits appear to be particularly popular in France, and the latest one seems especially silly. Apparently Google is being sued because autocomplete sometimes shows the name of famous people with the keyword "jew" after them. This includes such non-Jews as Rupert Murdoch and Jon Hamm.

The lawsuit is being fought by a group, SOS Racisme, which claims to "fight discrimination," but if that's the case, then one hopes that racism has all but been obliterated in France, since the group has moved on to fighting ridiculous cases like this one. All that Google autocomplete is showing is that a lot of people (potentially ignorant ones) have searched for these names, along with the keyword "jew" or "jewish" to determine if the individual is Jewish. The fact that users search for something and Google displays that isn't something Google should be liable for. Why blame Google for the actions of its users?

But, more to the point -- and I say this as someone who is Jewish -- what the hell is anti-semitic about doing such searches in the first place? I'm really at a complete loss to understand why this is so horrible. Yes, the reason behind the searches may be ignorance (and some of the results may point to pages that spread ignorance), but the group bringing the lawsuit seem to be suggesting that this is an absolutely horrible thing that people may be prompted to do searches on whether or not non-Jews are really Jews. The only way this story makes any sense is if all real racism and anti-semitism and other forms of ignorance and bigotry have all been eradicated in Europe. Assuming that's not actually the case, perhaps it's just one clueless group overreacting.

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Filed Under: autocomplete, france, jon hamm, rupert murdoch
Companies: google

64 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 3:59pm

Their useless flailing is not new, apparently: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-20106022.html
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gorehound (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 4:10pm

Anti-Semites are on the rise.I am Jewish and the son of a Holocaust Survivor.And in the USA where I live I have seen many an Anti-Semitic Comment on News Stories by looking at comments after I have read something.I also read a lot of News Stories that talk about people putting Swastikas on Temples, Jewish Graves, ETC.
Enough said for me on the topic.If you want to learn about the Jews of Carpathia i run my memorial website at:
http://www.bigmeathammer.com/auswitz.htm
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gorehound (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 4:12pm

Re:
I screwed up typing the correct address is:
http://www.bigmeathammer.com/aushwitz.htm

I hate making typing errors !!!
Sorry bout that.
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Michael Baldwin, 1 May 2012 @ 4:13pm

Google's defense: "It's a fair cop,
but society is to blame."

Seriously, the whole thing is beyond absurd.
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Jakedaynes (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 4:14pm

Jewish-ness
I'm with you on this one Mike. I guess the only reason I would sue in this is the fact that I'd feel bad for other Jewish people knowing that Murdoch was Jewish - it just gives anybody associated with him a bad name :(
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usul_of_arakis (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 4:17pm

Re: Re:
I call you out as been Anti-Typo
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 4:26pm

Typing in Mike's name
The 10th one or so is: mike masnick trent reznor

Therefore I think Mike has a head like a hole, black as your soul.
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MSC (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 4:26pm

Re:
Is it really on the rise, or are anti-semites just learning to use 21st Century tools to promote their ignorant views?
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 4:27pm

Anti-Semites are on the rise
Anti-Semites are on the rise.

They’re getting taller?

Or did you mean “Anti-Semitism is on the rise"? (If so, please provide substantiation rather than anecdotes.) I can't possibly imagine why that would happen.

Are confusing Anti-Semitism with Anti-Zionism? They are not the same thing.

Regardless, it must be Google's fault. Censoring Google will surely fix the problem.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 4:28pm

Correction
Are you confusing Anti-Semitism with Anti-Zionism? They are not the same thing.
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ASTROBOI, 1 May 2012 @ 4:39pm

Pointless
All over an annoying feature I dislike so much I've turned it off. Anything that auto-completes or tries to guess what you are going to type next bugs me as much as an overly helpful stranger reading over your shoulder. But thats just me.
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Bill W (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 4:49pm

Re: Pointless
Equating a computer algorithm to personal interaction doesn't make it for me. And I guess that's the WHOLE POINT here. It's the computer matching up words and, by mathematical correlation, suggesting some completions.

And, of course as you suggest, you can TURN OFF the suggestions easily.

Me? I sometimes use (and frequently am amused by) the Google search suggestions. I recognize that they are just suggestions, nothing more.
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Shmerl, 1 May 2012 @ 4:49pm

It's definitely completely stupid to sue Google for what other people search for. However Google is at fault for censoring the auto-complete even without being sued. Try typing in some combinations with "bittorrent" word. (Like "Debian bittorrent" for example). You'll get weird results with suggestions "mysteriously" disappearing until you complete typing bittorrent in. Clear stupid censorship of suggesting faster way to download freely available Debian.
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A Guy (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 4:53pm

Yep

That's ridiculous. I hope Google crushes the group suing in court, and then makes a nice donation to a jewish charity with any fees they recover.
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 4:55pm

Stop the Searches!
If they want to stop people from searching for this sort of thing, they can always find every Jewish person and put their name on a biiiiiiig list, that way everyone will know! What could *possibly* go wrong? :-P
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 5:23pm

Re: Re:
It's anecdotal evidence at best.
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raafal537 (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 5:31pm

its kind of weird..
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GMacGuffin (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 5:35pm

When we sit around my house searching to find out which famous people are Jewish, we always search "Jewish" capitalized, never just "jew" because that would be ignorant and insensitive.
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scichotic (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 5:37pm

Ridiculous. Something's wrong with... with people. What could make anyone think that a search engine is responsible for the content it contains? I bet they think Google's employees are typing in the search results manually...

Either way, this reminded me of people saying Hitler was Jewish, so I decided to play the "how many letters until" game with Google's autocomplete. I kid you not, I didn't even have to type the first H in "was hitler jewish" to get it at the top of the list. I would have expected something about Elvis up there.

I hope the French don't sue me for searching for that.
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Kurata, 1 May 2012 @ 5:48pm

Meh don't worry, in France, we have a lot of groups that do various fights and always attempt to attract the attention.
For instance, some feminist groups fought because in France, we have "Mademoiselle" which is for unwed women, "Madame" for wed women, and only "Monsieur" for men whether married or not, and they wanted to have "Mademoiselle" removed from forms.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 5:58pm

But more to the point--and I say this as a Gleek--why are there so many Jews and gays in Lima, Ohio? No offense, I was just wondering...
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 6:03pm

Re: Correction
Somebody who gets it! :)
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TtfnJohn (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 6:05pm

Re:
And torrenting Debian is perfectly legal and ethical, too!

One or two ACs who will take that bait and run with it notwithstanding.
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TtfnJohn (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 6:07pm

To go some way to answer whether or not racism and discrimination has been eradicated in France I'd suggest you ask the Roma (gypsies) about that.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 6:29pm

So the best way to fight anti-semitism is to insinuate that there's something wrong with being called jewish? I feel there's a step missing there somewhere.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 6:56pm

Re:
There really is nothing more synonymous than Jewsih people and Hamm.
It was even eluded to in the last episode of Mad Men when Abraham was talking to Peggy's mom.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 7:25pm

/Sarcasm
It's all a scam ran by the Jews abusing Google search so they can sue.

You know why us Jews have big noses? Because air is free! Hiyoooooo
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 8:04pm

Re: Correction
Race and religion are different concepts.

What race you are is fixed in your genes, encoded in your DNA. It is determined at the moment of conception and is then entirely fixed throughout your whole life. You have no control over what race you are, therefore you should not be held responsible for it.

All religions are in the nature of social clubs. You can leave any religion at any time you like. You may join any religion which is willing to have you as a member, just the same as any other social club. The matter is entirely under your voluntary control. Under the universal declaration of human rights, you get that control, unfettered. Anybody who tries to take that control away from you is violating your universal rights. They should be condemned for that, in the most forthright terms.

However, it is perfectly reasonable to hold someone responsible for their choice of religion. They have the power, therefore responsibility follows. The merits or otherwise, of various religions, is also a perfectly proper topic for discussion, both public and private. Harsh words may be said about any or all religions, by anyone, at any time. Such speech is protected under the first amendment and the universal declaration of human rights. Persons attempting to restrict such speech should be called on it.

Some religions attempt to confuse the concepts of race and religion. This is intellectual dishonesty and they should be called on it. Judaism is a particular offender in this matter. Notice the definitions of the terms "semitism" and "anti-semitism". Semitism has a racial definition. Anti-semitism is confused, some authorities give it a racial definition, some authorities give it a religious definition. As the AC above has correctly pointed out, anti-semitism should have a racial definition, to match semitism. The correct term for the religious concept is anti-zionism.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 8:46pm

Re:
I understand your concern and why you take offense. However, please consider whether this actually means racism/bigotry is on the rise. For a while, I was wondering whether racism in general is on the rise based on the same reasoning as you are using. The racist comments that are popping up all over comment sections etc. are disturbing but that does not mean it is on the rise. I'm, of the opinion that it means more racist people have a forum to voice their ignorant beliefs. Frankly I've come to terms with this. I'm glad people are voicing their hatred in the open. Since we know it's out there and there is evidence, we know there is still work to be done. I don't want to force these ignorant people into basements and private forums where I have no idea what they are talking about. I also can't help but feel it is wrong to silence anyone, no matter how messed up their beliefs are...
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 9:05pm

Re: Re: Correction
You apparently do not know much about Judaism, then. Judaism does not consider itself a religion, nor a race. It's not a race, since you can join. It's not a religion, since you can't leave. Sorry.

Of course, that's assuming you allow Judaism the freedom to define itself. You don't have to like it, incidentally. Just recognize that this is what Judaism believes.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 9:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Correction
"Freedom of religion" is not the freedom to rewrite in the dictionary what religion means, sorry.
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Brendy, 1 May 2012 @ 9:20pm

By the same logic...
Why should torrent sites be held liable for the actions of their users? If it held up in those cases, then why wouldn't it hold up here. Just sayin' and playin' devil's advocate. I hate these cases and it's retarded to find the companies liable for the actions of their users. The judges must be 100 years old and not understand how the internet works.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 9:29pm

Re:
We Anglophones have Miss, Mrs. and Mr. meaning exactly the same things respectively. I haven't seen any feminist protests over that though.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 9:31pm

Re: Re:
I suppose it's a corollary to John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, since one would expect that applying the formula not to a "normal person" but to an already "partial fuckwad" (e.g., abnormally xenophobic) would lead to an even more exaggerated result.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 May 2012 @ 9:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
Umm, try again, please. Nobody is redefining religion. Judaism does not, and has never, fit in the dictionary definition of "religion". Glad we could have this talk.
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G Thompson (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 11:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
So therefore it's a cult that you cannot leave then?

hmmmm....

Actually anyone can leave Judaism, its the Jewish Faith that states they cannot, which is placing them in the position of denying someone their natural right of choice (free will) with is ethically and legally wrong, though according to some stating that is Anti-Jewish, Anti-Zionism and Racist all at the same time.

Me I don't class people by their race or religion, I class them whether they are contributing in a non harmful way to society or are being complete idiots (and in extreme cases need to remove themselves from the gene pool)

As for giving an ideology (which is the correct term for Judaism) the freedom to define itself, that is perfectly acceptable, as long as they do it without restricting individuals and other ideologies from both leaving and claiming they are wrong, right, or just another stupid human psychological fear.
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G Thompson (profile), 1 May 2012 @ 11:37pm

Google if they lose this, under French law, need to seriously consider whether they need the problem of France any more.

Switching off the country is easy and would allow the French Courts and Government the opportunity to basically get a short sharp shock of understanding of how the French people themselves feel when they take to the streets. Who knows, heads might roll in France again.
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Ben (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 12:51am

Re: Re: Re:
*being

Irony alert!
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Etch, 2 May 2012 @ 3:02am

Re: Jewish-ness
Murdoch isn't Jewish anyways, so you still have no reason to sue.
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Anonymous Cowherd, 2 May 2012 @ 3:34am

Google brought this upon themselves by censoring the auto-completes in the first place. Since they've clearly demonstrated a willingness to moderate the results, they can only expect more demands to remove what someone doesn't like.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 4:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
Let's try this again. According to Judaism, a Jew always remains a Jew. This does not mean that he is locked up in a room to prevent him from escaping to another religion. It merely means that Judaism and Jewish Law will always consider him Jewish. If he decides that he no longer wants to be Jewish, Jewish Law still considers him a Jew, although I'm not sure why he would care what Jewish Law thinks of him. I'm not sure how any of that fits into the definition of a cult.

"... without restricting individuals and other ideologies from both leaving...". Define "leaving".
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G Thompson (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 6:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
Leaving:
to depart, to exit from a contract, to redefine your philosophy in regards to one ideology in favour of another (or none), to remove thyself from the associations that define other peoples perceptions that you are of one sort of religion or another.

Clear as mud yet?

And some religious text can state that the moon is made of cheese, it doesn't mean that it is true. Nor does it mean that if someone believes in that truism and then finds logic and disputes it that religion then has the right to defame them by stating that no we can say you are a 'cheese believer' for ever no matter what you decide.

Can you see the hypocrisy for any religion or whatever to say that? Though admittedly Judaism is not the only religion or ideology to state this restriction on 'freedom to state ones choice', its the only Abrahamic one to do so.

Religions are great until they try to restrict natural rights, then they become unethical and their controlling nature shows through. Judaism is no different.. just a bit older, and maybe more subtle than others
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Niall (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 7:28am

Re:
Why not get everyone to google "France cheese-eating surrender monkeys"?
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Laroquod (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 8:27am

Re: Re: Re: Correction
According to my religion, my religion isn't a religion. So you cannot criticise my religion for being a religion. Got that?

Also, according this post, this post isn't a post. Therefore, you cannot reply to it. SLAM DUNK.
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Laroquod (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 8:30am

Re: Re:
What, you never heard of 'Ms.'? They even named a whole magazine after it, what was that about?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 8:35am

Re: Re:
Missed out on the whole Ms. thing then did you?
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Jewish Jedi, 2 May 2012 @ 8:50am

Is Judaism a Race or Religion?
Prior to the modern era (i.e. French Revolution), Jews were seen as a nationality without a land. They lived in any country by charter of the King and they had their own civil and criminal system when only Jews were involved. A Catholic living in England in the 18th Century took his civil dispute to the same court as a member of the Church of England. But two Jews in England at that time went to their own court because Jews were seen as a People without a Land but still a nationality.
This changed after the French Revolution when Napoleon called together 70 leading Rabbis and asked them 12 questions with the express purpose to clarify whether Jews saw themselves as being part of the Jewish religion or the Jewish nation. And he made it clear that while members of all religions could be French only French people could reside in France (He was afraid of the threat of a third front helping the enemies of France). These Rabbis gave Napoleon the answers he wanted to hear: We are a religion. 100 years later when it was clear that Emancipation had failed and Jews were not accepted as Frenchmen, a journalist named Herzl started the Zionist movement based on restoring the "national" dignity of the Jewish People.
This debate within Judaism as to what Jews are continues today. Personally, I like the answer of one Rabbi (Larry Hoffman) who says that Judaism is a conversation in which those who are Jewish know the lines (even the ones they disagree with) and that any other effort to characterize what Judaism is or is not is doomed to fail because Judaism does not fit exclusively into any one definition based on the available choices.
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 9:08am

Re: Is Judaism a Race or Religion?
That's pretty jewish. :-P
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 10:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
A comment thread is really far from the best place to discuss ideology, but since I started....

Re: Leaving. You can declare your freedom from your parents until you are blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that you are related, and that you have their DNA. You again make the assumption that Jewishness is based on belief. It's not.

Crystal.

"Cheese believer" isn't really analogous, since being Jewish is not based on belief. Therefore, no hypocrisy is involved in saying that someone is still Jewish even if they don't believe they are.

Hypothetically, if tomorrow Judaism determined that you were Jewish, it would have little to no effect on your life, except perhaps to give you a great anecdote or two at the bar. So no freedoms are being removed.

Re: "restriction on 'freedom to state ones choice', [Judaism is] the only Abrahamic one to do so." I regret to inform you that in years bygone, converting away from Christianity or Islam was a capital offense. Nowadays that may have changed, but then, Judaism no longer executes people either, and for far longer (not that they ever executed people who converted out).

Re: "Religions are great until... Judaism...".
Again, Judaism is not a religion. Judaism considers Jewishness to be a state of being which is unalterable. If one doesn't believe in Judaism, then this belief is just another that they won't share, but there is no reason at all to get upset about it.

Re: "and their controlling nature shows through"
This is actually excellent news. Here I thought you had some misconception about Judaism, but now I see it's just about religion.

Also, if "Judaism is no different", then I wonder who is doing the controlling and retaining power over all the millions of Jews out there.

Anyhow, I'm done here, you can keep posting comments if you like, you're free to do that as well. But if you do want answers, and not just to make a point, then there are many online resources where you can get professional and/or crowd-sourced answers on Judaism. And no one is going to try to proselytize you, incidentally; Judaism doesn't do that either.
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Kevin L (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 11:57am

perhaps it's just one clueless group overreacting.

They're not overreacting, they're following the fundamental principle of lawsuits: the chance of a lawsuit being successful is inversely proportional to the merits of the case and directly proportional to the square of the net worth of the defendant.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 12:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
According to the Everythingligion, EVERYONE is a member of the Everythingligion. So it doesn't fit the definition of Religion, since you can't ever NOT be a member of the Everythingligion.

It says so in the sacred texts of the Everythingligion. I know, because I wrote them when I was registering it as an official religion.
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btr1701 (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 12:49pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
> It merely means that Judaism and Jewish Law
> will always consider him Jewish.

And he considers himself not Jewish.

What makes Jewish Law superior to his own self-identification?
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btr1701 (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 12:54pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
> Leaving. You can declare your
> freedom from your parents until
> you are blue in the face, but
> it won't change the fact that
> you are related, and that you
> have their DNA.

False analogy. I can take your DNA and compare it to your parents and determine your heredity. I can't do the same with your Jewishness. No blood or tissue sample can tell me whether you're Jewish or not. Jewishness is not scientifically provable; it's merely a matter of belief and faith, and if someone leaves that faith and self-identifies as something else, then that's all that counts. The other Jews can claim he's still Jewish until they're blue in the face, but he's factually not because *he* said he's not.
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btr1701 (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 12:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
> Hypothetically, if tomorrow Judaism determined
> that you were Jewish

then Judaism would be wrong, because I'm not.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 May 2012 @ 5:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
I actually wrote up a whole long answer to your comment, even though I said I wouldn't. But then I remembered the quote:

"For you, my friend, I have no answers, because you don't have any questions; you only have answers, and to answers, there are no answers."

To that I would only add "you only have answers, mistaken facts, selective hearing, and a flawed understanding of logic".

(If ever the day comes that you actually want to understand, and not to just argue, there are plenty of resources available. I mean this not in any sort of proselytizing way, incidentally. I mean only that if you are ever interested in understanding a viewpoint other than your own, you have but to ask. Because just arguing will get you no understanding.)

Be well.
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Michael Price (profile), 2 May 2012 @ 11:26pm

I would think that Jews everywhere would be googling ' "Ruppert Murdoch" jewish ' in the hope of finding evidence that he's not. Certainly as an Australian I always hoped to find evidence that he was actually born in New Zealand.
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Becky, 3 May 2012 @ 12:30pm

Hmmm...I'm part-Jewish by heritage-only and I'm not religious anyway, but with a name like Hamm he doesn't even sound kosher to me:)!
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PrometheeFeu (profile), 3 May 2012 @ 2:04pm

The law that is allegedly violated is not that auto-complete is being racist. It is that auto-complete is creating a database that contains ethnicity. Of course, given that the presence of the word "jew" in auto-complete does not actually indicate that the person actually is jewish, the lawsuit is bogus. But bogus in a different way.
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btr1701 (profile), 7 May 2012 @ 12:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Correction
Funny. The same 'advice' can be equally applied to you.
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Benjamin, 22 May 2012 @ 3:42pm

Google is run by two Zionist Jews, Sergey Brin and Larry Paige. Google cooks its search results to produce a sensationalist tabloid similar to the rags of yesteryear, designed to shock and scandalize. Google is nothing but the product of two deranged minds, the atheistic Jews Brin and Paige. The fact that Google is controlled by Jews contains the seeds of its own destruction. Anti-semitism is self-preservation on the part of 98% of the population, because this non-Jew majority recognizes that the Jews (2% of the U.S. population) are anti-humanity. The Jewish Lobby is now the most powerful political force in the United States. Ultimately, the Jews will fail in their attempt to subjugate, control and dominate the non-Jewish population. Jews have been hated and despised since the beginning of time. The rapidly increasing anti-semitism throughout the world can be laid at the feet of the Jews. The biologic Jew is evil in his DNA. All cultures have expelled the Jews throughout history. The Jew is the author of his own destruction.
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lrobbo (profile), 7 Jun 2012 @ 8:58am

Autocomplete sucks whatever way. Screen bouncing about suggesting retarded phrases, why don't they just leave things alone. Constantly "improving" their search engine . . .
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Apr 2013 @ 6:06pm

most celebrties are jew
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Apr 2013 @ 6:08pm

Re:
excellent analysis
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2014 @ 10:50am

How interesting that Mike would assume the only circumstance in which someone would look up someone's "jewness" is out of ignorance, as if no credible reason exits. It's demonstrations of unjustifiable elitism like this that usually leads to the searches in the first place.
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