Even The Judge Wonders What Oracle Is Up To As It Asks For $0 In Copyright Damages From Google

from the procedural dept

Thu, Jun 21st 2012 10:44am — Mike Masnick

Having lost both its patent and copyright claims against Google in somewhat spectacular fashion (remember when it was claiming billions in damages?), Oracle recently agreed in court that it was fine with receiving $0 in statutory damages for the short snippets of code that were copied. This even took the judge by surprise, who asked if there was a "catch" he should be aware of. The issue is one that is really more procedural than anything else: everyone realizes that the only thing that matters now is what happens in the appeal, and if Oracle happens to win the appeal, it can revisit the damages question. Either way, however, it is a bit symbolic to see Oracle "accept" $0 in damages. And, of course, there is still one more part to this round in district court, which is that Google is expected to seek attorneys' fees from Oracle as well -- meaning that Oracle's plan to get billions from Google may turn into not just a loss, but a really, really expensive loss.

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Filed Under: api, appeal, damages, java
Companies: google, oracle

38 Comments

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alanbleiweiss (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 11:17am

I'm clueless to the finer machinations of court procedures, litigation and such, however could it be that if they "accept $0 in damages", and if that's language that somehow actually gets into the court record, could, in some future legal action, some shlub lawyer later use the case as "proof we were awarded damages in that case" or at least THINK he/she could do that?

As far fetched as that seems to be, with all the hack nonsense that goes on these days in the legal system, it just seems a possible motive.
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A Dan (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 11:22am

Typo
"Goolge" should, as far as I know, be "Google".
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 11:33am

Re: Typo
whoops - fixed, thanks!
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Zimzat (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 11:37am

Re:
This is precisely what I was thinking. It wouldn't amount for much in a monetary comparison, but it would add to the number of victories for copyright infringement procedures even though they actually lost. 1-0 wins, or whatever their count is. They could then turn that into an extortion letter for any company that doesn't read the full ruling or pay attention to the news.
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Some Guy, 21 Jun 2012 @ 11:48am

Has Techdirt gone off its rocker? Forcing audio down my throat now when I visit the site ... Another great site turns to crap. I couldn't even read this article with the audio superimposed over my music stream. Yesterday it had an obnoxious banner superimposed over the existing obnoxious banner. I understand people gotta eat, but seriously ... I'm about ready to stop visiting, and this has been one of my favorite sites for a long, long time.
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Mr. Smarta** (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 11:51am

Settle instead of lose?
Could it be Oracle just wanted to say in the future that they "settled" rather than lost? Losing outright would mean everyone could use snippets of code or whatever. Settling means they didn't actually lose, but they could seek damages from anyone else.

Not sure if I'm really reading this correctly.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 11:59am

I think Oracle should get $0,000,000. They deserve the extra 0s for all the hard work they put into this lawsuit.

On a side note, I see the Oracle guy just bough a Hawaiian island. Are they going to be prepping their appeal from their new volcano based lair?
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That One Guy (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:17pm

Can you say 'legal precedent'?
Seems to me that what they're going for here is a legal precedent that shows that they 'won', by getting a settlement out of google.

If so it wouldn't matter that they didn't actually get any money out of the deal, they still have a case that they can go back to and point to the fact that they 'won', which would be worth much more money than they could expect from google at this point.
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Mr. Oizo, 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:17pm

0 would be fine too
Was that $ really necessary in the title ? I mean, it doesn't matter anymore what unit it is it is the same in all of them. Pure american imperialsm we are witnessing here.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:18pm

Re:
i've never seen any of the banners you speak of. before blaming techdirt, i'd suggest at least finding out if the ads are indeed from techdirt and not malware. i've known techdirt to take advertising very seriously and don't want to be too invasive, so it doesn't sound like the techdirt i know. its possible they're not aware of it as well.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:22pm

Re: 0 would be fine too
it is necessary. if they said zero, you'd have no clue what they said they want zero amount of. so, yes, it is absolutely necessary. zero dollars = $0, not 0%, or 0degC. Plus its in the US, so if you're complaining that its the same as 0 EUR or 0 AU, etc, well, you're dumb, cause that's making it needlessly complicated. We're in the US, we'll use the US unit for representing money instead of them saying "0 generic dollars".

honestly, this comment is kinda dumb from any and all angles. I'm sorry, but it is.
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Doug D (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:23pm

Maybe Oracle is counting on the verdict being stored in an Oracle database somewhere -- their software can then corrupt the data in the AMOUNT column more easily if the rest of the row has the right structure.
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Rikuo (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:36pm

Re:
audio? What'chu talking about? Never has been audio...unless its from an ad that can be easily countered by Adblock+ or Noscript.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:54pm

Goolge works fine too...
'natch!
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:57pm

Re:
There's an ad on the right with audio that only plays on mouseover, and a banner on the bottom that has recently gotten larger (and was said yesterday they were working with company for a close or minimize button). Neither of these I find even slightly annoying (I generally run Chrome with no adblock).

If you're getting more than those, you might want to check your browser or system for something else that is generating them.
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MrWilson, 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:58pm

Re:
Another great discussion interrupted by someone complaining about something that they have the power to change.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 12:58pm

I've got ad blockers, flash block, etc...
...and one of the reasons for getting them was the "audiobombs" on techdirt and similar annoying features on other sites, where a careless hover is awarded by a loud ad or annoying pop-up.

No big deal... doesn't bother me now.

But just sayin'....
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:01pm

Re:
"more easily"?

You make it sound hard.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:03pm

Stupid question...
Stupider answer.

Zero dollars is not an amount of dollars, and it is absolutely and exactly equivalent to NOTHING at ALL.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:04pm

"more easily" is the equivalent of...
...-1 harder.

Anony-math in action!
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Almost Anonymous (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:06pm

Re:
Once it became evident that the judge was knowledgeable and wasn't going to buy Oracle's bullshit, Google knew it had a slam-dunk here. It wouldn't make any sense to "settle" at this point in the game if it could possibly come back on them, so I'm guessing that accepting $0 in damages is still a loss as far as the case is concerned. Even more so if Oracle winds up paying Google's legal fees, which I believe can only happen in the case of not just a loss but a trouncing loss.
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MrWilson, 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:10pm

Re: Stupid question...
Sure, it's just semantics, but it's significant in certain scenarios. If you had $12 and you spent $12, you now have $0. Just because having no money is the same as having nothing of some other unit, you still wouldn't say, "spending $12 of $12 leaves you with 0 frogs..." Unless you were just trying to be absurd.
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Almost Anonymous (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:11pm

Re: Settle instead of lose?
I don't buy that this is considered a settlement. As you noted, that could leave the door open for future lawsuits by Oracle, perhaps even against Google again. It just doesn't make sense for Google to convert what was clearly a major win, and an awesome precedent, into a whimpering settlement, so I don't think that's the case here. I think at most it is a way for Oracle to save a teeny tiny bit of face.
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Some Other Guy (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:13pm

Re:
I'm going to guess that these are adverts you're talking about. Does your web-viewing platform support ad-blocking?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:33pm

Re: Re: Stupid question...
If you spent the $12 on a frog exterminator you might say that.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 1:38pm

Re: Stupid question...
Trust me when i say that you definitely want zero dollars to be an amount of dollars and not exactly equivalent to nothing.

For instance if zero were a simple indication of nothing at all, exactly and absolutely nothing, then strange things like a lack of oxygen might crop up spontaneously.

At that point i'd expect you'd find that zero dollars is significantly different than nothing.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 2:33pm

Oracle wants the precedent that they "won" the case for copyright infringment its to set up future lawsuits and ask for a ton of damages. In similar cases they can say ah we won so they can win another related case against a not so smart company. Not to mention they can also try to alter the damages later so long as they establish that Google "infringed". Really its a ploy to make it that Oracle "won" so they can use this in future lawsuits to troll.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Jun 2012 @ 2:49pm

Re:
Has Techdirt gone off its rocker? Forcing audio down my throat now when I visit the site

Er... where? If that's true it's certainly NOT intended. We've never forced audio on people on purpose. If you're aware of it happening, let us know so we can stop it.
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MrWilson, 21 Jun 2012 @ 3:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Stupid question...
You're just trying to be absurd now! :-)
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro, 21 Jun 2012 @ 5:13pm

The Biggest Winner In All This Is David Boies
The guy seems to have built a successful career out of getting clients to pay him lots of money to lose cases for them: previously SCO, now Oracle.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2012 @ 8:10pm

Re: Re:
Always wanted to thank you for having the class to do something about those things. Adverts don't bug me so much, but flashing banners and music blasting my ears out makes me so much less inclined to even consider a product...
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro, 21 Jun 2012 @ 8:31pm

They�re Not Asking For Zero Dollars ...
... they�re asking for zero billion dollars. You think this is the kind of $0 you can just whip out your wallet and not pay? Hell no. This is the kind of $0,000,000,000 that only big corporations and rich kids can afford to call up their bankers to not pay. This is not your ordinary-Joe-and-Jane petty-cash zero, this is your team-of-lawyers-and-financial-funds, special-letter-of-credit-delivered-by-armoured-car-courier, big-ass now-we�re-talking-real-money zero.

Mark my words, even in giving up damages, Oracle is determined to make it sting for Google to not pay this.
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Tom Forest, 21 Jun 2012 @ 8:41pm

Re: Re:
It's the 'a word from our sponsors' Samsung ad. If the mouse hovers over it music starts playing then 3 seconds later a large pop-up appears.
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Disgusted, 21 Jun 2012 @ 9:50pm

Re:
So much for performance based pay. You can be stupid enough to captain your ship onto such obvious rocks, and yet well renumerated enough for those efforts that you can buy Hawaian Islands.
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Brent (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 7:05am

Re:
Install AdBlock. I think its available on almost every browser now. I didn't even know this site had ads. (sorry techdirt)
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 11:05am

Re: Re:
It would be nice if those ad-blockers allowed text ads through. I don't mind a kilobyte or two for an ad, but javascript, images, let alone flash, are far too much of my resources to devote to selling me something. If I am looking, and if it is relevant, a correctly placed and well timed text ad might lead to me at least considering buying that.
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Anonymous Monkey (profile), 22 Jun 2012 @ 1:58pm

Re:
basically, they are still striving for a "win"... "awarding" damages, even if for $0, still would show as a "win" of sorts.
it's a bait-and-switch kind of thing.
really sneaky and underhanded if you ask me.
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Anomalous Coward, 22 Jun 2012 @ 8:46pm

Re: Stupid question...
Maybe Oracle should get NULL dollars.
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