Chicago Rages Against The Future With 9% Tax On Netflix, Spotify And Other Streaming Services
from the tax-the-future dept
Almost exactly three years ago, Mike wrote up a post that discussed Planet Money pulling together five economists with differing political views to see what they could all agree on. The result was several policy ideas that appeared to transcend politics if economics was the driving motivator instead of any kind of partisanship. The whole post is awesome, and has influenced my thoughts on economic policy and taxes to a large degree, but I came away from it with one general concept firmly in mind: tax what you want to discourage, don't tax what you want to encourage, and never tax innovation or the future.
And now my home city is taxing the future. You see, the city of Chicago recently announced that it will extend its 9% amusement tax to online streaming services and cloud computing.
A ruling by Chicago’s Department of Finance allows the city to add an extra nine percent tax onto “electronically delivered amusements” and “nonpossessory computer leases.” In an odd combination, buying a subscription to streaming media, such as Netflix or Spotify, would qualify, as would using a cloud computing platform, such as Amazon Web Services. Each would be subject to 9% tax; Chicago is the first major American city to levy a tax on either streaming services or cloud computing services.Amusement taxes in and of themselves generally violate the concept I highlighted in the opening. After all, if you're a municipality, taxing fun is essentially saying you want less fun. But what makes this re-write of the amusement tax already on the books silly is that it is purely a money-grab. Here's what happened: the amusement tax in Chicago worked primarily to collect revenue from book stores, music stores and movie rental stores, which are obviously becoming increasingly in short supply as consumers move to online stores and streaming services like Netflix and Spotify and Amazon for all of the above. This is actually a good thing from a public interest standpoint for a variety of reasons: less pollution from physical products, more efficiency in the marketplace, the opening of more creative outlets for members of the city, and more access to more content from more places and devices, meaning a more robust economic marketplace. The future, in other words, although increasingly the present as well. And Chicago wants to tax all this, effectively discouraging its use, in order to collect an additional $12 million a year.
Chicago, mind you, is in the hole for roughly one hundred times that amount.
Cities with amusement taxes have lost revenue as more people forgo book stores, record shops and video rental stores in place of online outlets. But $12 million isn’t going to be much more than a drop of water in the bucket of the city’s $1 billion operating shortfall.Fighting the future doesn't even yield much of a reward, so why do it at all? Don't tax what you want to encourage and tax what you want to discourage. This makes it look like the city of Chicago really wants a tax policy to make the city operate like it was 1995.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: chicago, entertainment, internet, streaming, tax
Companies: netflix, spotify
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
What if you are a DVD only subscriber?
Does looking at YouTube count as amusement?
Would using a VPN out of Chicago circumvent this?
What if my friend subscribes to Netflix in LA, but then uses Skype to show it to me?
This is gonna be fun. :)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Your taxation of the games has made the poorer Romans, of which there are a majority, very upset. They are no longer distracted from the real problems of Rome and are looking at you. I recommend lifting the tax, more games and more bread.
-your friend, Cicero.
PS. How's mum?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Yes, but 9% of a subscription of 0 is easily afforded. This could encourage more people to use it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
It was about the greater good and rising all boats.
Even most sales taxes make sense, since the city has to pay for roads and traffic lights and sweeping and (in Chicago) plowing snow.
But this is just plain and simple theft. Chicago is not contributing a single thing to help Netflix, Amazon or anyone. It's just a hamfisted cash grab from the city of thugs.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
If you want to talk about taxing the future, learn to recognize the difference between creating new taxes targeted at the future, and pointing out the obvious fact that taxes on music do not contain exceptions for companies deemed sufficiently innovative.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chicago can't spell
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
But online streaming on the other hand, definitely agree, Chicago doesn't even own any Internet infrastructure. And if they did, such a tax would basically be a net neutrality violation that discourages people from using netflix.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This isn't just about Netflix
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This tax is right in line with the kinds recomended by those five economists because it's a consumption tax.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Tech drain is coming
Companies are going to be looking for office space outside the city limits to avoid taxes on their AWS usage.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Call it what it is!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Sure it is. All consumption taxes are discouragement taxes, insofar as they discourage consumption of the taxed good. In some cases, the tax may be broad-based enough (e.g., general sales tax) to have no specific target of the discouragement. In this case, the amusement tax discourages the consumption of the taxed amusements, and it is now covering online amusements as well.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Maybe those Companies will call for ISDS clauses?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Now, Amazon does, in fact, ship things to you... via trucks owned by shipping companies that pay local taxes, and via trucks licensed locally, and fueled locally.
IOW, that local FedEx warehouse pays property taxes and income taxes. The truck driving down your street is licensed and pays excise taxes. The gas in it is taxed. And so on.
In short, those trucks that are still "using the roads" have already paid to do so, and taxing them twice over makes no sense at all.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: This isn't just about Netflix
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ha
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Ha
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Ha
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Ha
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Divesting
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Or, what about people from outside the country using a Chicago IP on their VPN? What about someone who travels to Chicago for a week, watches some Netflix there and then goes somewhere else? Will this affect them, or will it affect only people with Chicago billing addresses? If the latter, what if they leave to work somewhere else for 6 months, do they still get taxed even if they don't use it in Chicago?
Yep, there's a lot of fun questions.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Read it again. This isn't about sales. It's about streaming (rentals).
If you're going to complain about other misinterpreting the facts, you might as well get your own straight to begin with.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: This isn't just about Netflix
[ link to this | view in thread ]
So, preferring one pseudoscience over another.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Taxes don't kill innovation; metered connections do.
Over here in eu-land, every transaction is taxed.
Specified essential items (basic food and drink) are taxed lower, the rest in the high rate around the 20-25% mark.
Does it hinder the future? No. People flock to streaming services because they think it's cool and people have an unmetered flat rate internet connection. (or they pay for an expensive 3/4G connection to stream).
Things that hinder the future are lack of competition and lack of net neutrality.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Which doesn't stop it -- especially the internet services part -- from being exceedingly stupid.
Worse, taxing internet services only impacts smaller businesses and startups, as any larger company or corporation will simply setup things so that any services paid for are done elsewhere.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
So... someone in Chicago who doesn't want to pay the tax can just use a different billing address or a virtual credit card (such as the one I use to pay services that require a US credit card from outside the US), and they avoid the tax?
Nobody's going to go to those lengths to avoid a single Netflix bill, perhaps, but that setup isn't hard to get around if you want to (technically, of course, legally may be another matter). Your other points, I agree with.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Shooting Chicago in the Foot
[ link to this | view in thread ]
A Dubious Tax, in Search of Dubious Revenue
In practice, it seems to be difficult to spend large sums of money on the internet. Markets are too efficient, and publicly disclosed prices reflect this. The market price for movies and music is going to be set by services like Amazon Prime. Television is artificially inflated because cable-providers resist selling internet access without television. As I see it, it is only a matter of time before the Venezuelans start broadcasting television from space (*), in sublime indifference to American copyrights. At that point, Netflix will probably go bankrupt like the various music services, unable to span the gap between the competing expectations of consumers and movie studios. The eventual tendency of the internet is to become free. Real money tends to involve much more inherently local goods and services such as food.
(*) Broadcasting satellites are becoming cheaper than even the most minimal kind of navy or air force, considered as a means of projecting "national presence."
Chicago's basic problem is that the vast majority of greater Chicago's population lives in the suburbs, or even in other states, and cannot be effectively taxed. Like every other big city, Chicago has vast tracts of derelict land, populated by street gangs. That isn't going to be addressed by an internet sales tax. Chicago's principal product is poverty, and that isn't something you can sell on the market.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Grosjean v. American Press Company?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Just copying Australia
So now we have a great big new tax on the future, thanks Anthony John Abbott, or Captain Clownshoes as our 'Dubya' clone is known.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The politicians are doing for the same reason that the scorpion stung the turtle; They can't change their nature, even if it means their own death (even if such "death" is political).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Now, are you one of those ACs who's honest enough to read the actual arguments made against this (tax on cloud infrastructure, which could run into huge extra costs for Chicago businesses), or are you one of those dishonest fools who finds the quickest way to wave away criticism and pretend there's no real issue?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
No. Roads and transportation are basic infrastructure which everyone expects to be there and working. Why ding Amazon specifically for using basic infrastructure which our taxes paid to be there? Do you work for AT&T?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Ha
So ...? There's a reason there's always an odd number of Justices: so there can never be a tie. Saying that there was "almost a tie" is utterly meaningless. *Many* Supreme Court decisions are 5-4.
they were both very liberal
So they're not allowed to have an opinion? Or just an opinion that doesn't agree with yours?
Besides, according to the Constitution, the Supreme Court has no right to make the law
Well, thank goodness they didn't then! What they did do, however, is making a ruling that making laws discriminating against gay marriage is unconstitutional. There's a BIG difference.
[Congress] can still nullify this decision if they choose to.
Yes, I suppose they could, but that would be a hugely uphill battle, considering only troglodytes consider this an issue worth arguing about.
Just 10 years ago it was common to hear nitwits saying things like, "[Y]ou would let everybody get married who want to get married. You want to marry a turtle, you can." (Bill O'Reilly, one of my favorites). We've come a long way in such a short time. Even O'Reilly himself is now saying things like, "All right, the gay marriage thing, I don't feel that strongly about it one way or the other."
If that troglodyte can evolve can't you?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Ha
He didn't evolve. He just finds it advantageous to not stick his neck out. Rest assured, if O'Reilly thought the wind was in his favor, we'd still be hearing about turtles.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Would the city of Chicago have any authority to force Netflix to collect this tax for them?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
It doesn't really say all consumption taxes are good, it suggests replacing income tax with a (general) consumption tax*. Levying additional consumption taxes on specific things that you don't want to discourage is not generally a good idea.
* what's interesting is that consumption isn't a bad thing we want to discourage, it's overall a good thing we want to encourage - after all if people didn't spend money, the economy would crumble. It's just that discouraging consumption is less bad than discouraging income (according to these economists at least).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Ha
So to you, the government letting all couples get married is "more government involvement"? And when the government is deciding who is and who is not allowed to get married, that's less government involvement? Just want to make sure I have it straight.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Taxes don't kill innovation; metered connections do.
In other words, there is no special tax on things like streaming services.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]