Trump's Constant Whining About The NY Times Isn't Just Bad For The First Amendment

from the business-threats dept

Fri, Nov 18th 2016 2:58pm — Mike Masnick

We've already made it clear that we're quite concerned about how freedom of expression will fare under President Trump. He has a long history of threatening and/or suing those who cover him factually, but in a manner he dislikes. And while he hasn't (as far as I can tell) threatened to sue anyone since the election, he appears to have become somewhat obsessed with the NY Times. Since winning the election he's tweeted at least six times about the NY Times, insisting (incorrectly) that it was losing subscribers and (incorrectly) that it had "apologized" to readers for its Trump coverage. He also claimed (incorrectly) that it had said he hadn't spoken to foreign leaders -- when the actual article just said that his conversations with foreign leaders happened without State Department briefings (which is fairly stunning). Here's what the NY Times said:

One week after Mr. Trump scored an upset victory that took him by surprise, his team was improvising the most basic traditions of assuming power. That included working without official State Department briefing materials in his first conversations with foreign leaders.

But Trump claimed something entirely different:

And, yes, I know that there are some folks who just flat out hate the NY Times and think that it lies and such. And I've certainly complained my fair share about weak or misleading coverage by the NY Times over the years, but it's still problematic when a President or President-elect is directly attacking any publication. It creates serious chilling effects on reporters. And, it can be even worse than that. As Yashar Ali noted in a Twitter thread, attacking a company as "failing" has real consequences, especially one that is traded on the public markets, potentially harming all sorts of everyday investors.

I'm guessing that many who just hate the NY Times won't care about this, but it is serious. There's a reason why Presidents don't go around attacking companies or saying that they're "failing" or that their business is in trouble. Because that has real consequences. I still don't think that journalists should be suing Trump for defamation, as some have suggested, but it would be nice if our President-elect recognized that going around and attacking the press -- even if he disagrees with its coverage -- is entirely inappropriate.

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Filed Under: attacks, business, corruption, donald trump, first amendment, free speech, threats
Companies: ny times

77 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 3:27pm

This is just part of the landscape now. The Left is urging Facebook and Google to put gatekeepers on the news to limit outcomes and the NYT went all in for one canidate. Of course Trump is partisan. Obama is saying similar things about "fake" news. Don't hate the player.
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orbitalinsertion (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 3:30pm

"Do Trump and his advisors realize he can wipe out millions/billions in shareholder value?"

He has made a living while doing just that with his own buisnesses? Probably doesn't care.
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Antikaon, 18 Nov 2016 @ 3:39pm

Sigh
Good points, but your title is part of the problem. Your title starts with "Trump's Constant Whining". Right off the bat, before the story can even be read the OPINION of the author is expressed. This colors the whole article. You could have said "Trump's statements" or "Trump's tweets", then presented the facts. Instead, Trump supporters (and Clinton non-supporters), will just dismiss this as another attack piece. They'll never read your content and their (legitimate) distrust of the mainstream media will grow. Media sources like the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. do the same thing. Why? It's inflammatory and therefore draws eyeballs to advertising.

Stop being part of the problem. Lead by example.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 3:40pm

NYT coverage of the 2016 election process was significantly out of sync with learnings on the Wikileaks side, frequently mischaracterizing information to attack Trump. Across the largest corporate owned media publications we saw a historic low point for journalism as publications became coordinated opinion pieces. Not a fan of Trump but can understand his frustration with the ongoing attack.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 3:43pm

Re: Sigh
Wow. Somebody has opinions on an opinion blog.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 3:43pm

Re: Sigh
Yeah, don't want to offend the whiners.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 3:44pm

Re:
Uh huh.
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brad (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:01pm

Re: Sigh
I like (and often agree with) the tone of your articles, but I agree with Antikaon in that you won't be convincing anybody not already on your side with that kind of rhetoric. If your intent is to preach to the choir, I'm happy to hear you preach and I agree. If you want to alter opinions that don't agree with yours, showing care with how you frame it would certainly be more effective in that regard.

I'd go so far as to say that similar rhetoric is the reason we keep getting GWBs and Trumps infesting the white house. I'm fairly convinced that a lot of the reason we get people voting in that direction is just to spite all the people calling them stupid for voting for Trumps and Gee-Dubs. "What, you think that's stupid? I'll show YOU!"
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Thad, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:12pm

Re:
2016 wasn't even a historic low point for the New York Times. Hell, it wasn't even the Times' lowest point of the past fifteen years. Ever hear of a lady named Judy Miller?
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Thad, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:14pm

Re:
I'm not aware of Obama advocating for congressional action to restrict Facebook's distribution of fake news stories, but I admit I haven't watched the news much since the election.

That said, Hillary Clinton once sponsored an amendment to ban flag burning, so yeah, it's not like the leading lights in either party have a sterling record on the First Amendment.
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Thad, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:16pm

Re: Sigh
You don't seem to understand what an op/ed is.
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Retsibsi (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:18pm

Anyone in public life who fails to consider their response carefully, especially when it will be open to public scrutiny and reply, has an incredibly dangerous habit. Sooner or later something will be said that will have (serious) repercussions.
As President-elect he needs to remember that. Failure to do so will eventually result in disaster. Then he'll either be quiet or try to respond further by raising the ante. Either way it'll be too late. Mud will stick and it will be his name people will remember, even if they can't remember what was actually said and by whom.
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Thad, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:26pm

Re:
If you think Donald Trump is concerned about the long-term impact that careless statements may have on his reputation, I can only conclude you are either an alien who has just landed on Earth or have just awoken from a fifty-year coma. Welcome!
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josh, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:27pm

stop politics
I have been a long time fan but can't stand this type of dishonest articles. Unless you acknowledge that all media has an approval rating of about 12% positive. None of the current political media is honest, people only want echo chamber opinions or they have no interest. I enjoys the wonderful tech news here. If it is going to become another trump is the devil site let me know now and I'll find someplace that would leave me less happy in keeping me updated with tech news.
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discordian_eris (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:29pm

"Do Trump and his advisors realize he can wipe out millions/billions in shareholder value?"

Well, maybe Peter Thiel has a problem with NYT and is simply funding a campaign to destroy it. Probably cheaper than his war on Gawker. Getting Trump to do it must appeal to Thiel.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:30pm

President Obama attacked Fox News
President Obama attacked Fox News, so how is this different.
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TJK, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:31pm

Re: Sigh
[]

....No, these are not "good points" about Trump by TD

The NY Times hammers Trump daily with misleading and often false reporting. The bias is overwhelming.

Trump has every right to openly challenge unfair news coverage, both as a private citizen and President.
U.S. Presidents complaining about news coverage of them has been normal practice for over two centuries.

The NY Times is not sacredly immune to criticism, as a private business. Hillary & Obama boldly pledged to destroy the U.S. coal industry.

Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger Jr. openly admitted the paper failed to fairly evaluate Trump’s candidacy... and pledged to rededicate the Times to honest journalism.

Trump is correct that the Times is failing financially -- 3rd Quarter 2016 earnings fell sharply in a constant downhill trend. Deceptive quibbles about the Times subscriber base cannot hide the sorry bottom line. (note that the subscriber total includes significant numbers of Times Crossword-Puzzle-only & Book-Review-only paid subscribers)

Overall, an obviously biased hatchet-job on Trump here.
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Rapnel (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:36pm

Re: Re: Sigh
You mean calling a spade a spade isn't cool? Too quick to qualify? Is he wrong? Wrong tone? Not CNN enough? Too much CNN? Were you guys upset? Is this a search for acceptance gone wrong? The power to change minds backfiring? What?

The guy is POTUS in a twitter tister with the NYT. Dude's pretty much whining. I might be with you on the "Constant" part though because that might tend to imply to infinity and beyond. He should definitely change that, like, immediately, or I could, you know, I could freak the fuck out. It's not right. Not cool.
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Retsibsi (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:37pm

I agree with you. I doubt he's the least bit concerned about the impact of any of his statements, other than the immediate impact. His entire business career is one of "playing to the gallery" and then walking away from whatever results. But what he seems to fail to realise is that he's not in that position any more. He doesn't get to walk away.
(And oh how I wish I was an alien who's just landed on earth because then I could leave... Anyone got some sleeping pills? That fifty year sleep / coma sounds awfully enticing)
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Rapnel (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:41pm

Re: Re: Sigh
Since it's fairly obvious Mr. Pres. Elect needs to start focusing now you kind of seem perfectly qualified to take over these truth and criticism duties. Truth to Powah, Brutha! Truth to Powahhh. Don't fuck this up.
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Antikaon, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:43pm

Re: Re: Sigh
You mean like the "Whiners" blocking traffic, demonizing the electoral college without knowing why it's important, and complaining about election results they don't like?

Suddenly "whiners" doesn't sound very fair, does it?
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Thad, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:44pm

Re: Re: Sigh

The NY Times hammers Trump daily with misleading and often false reporting. The bias is overwhelming.

[Citation needed]

Trump has every right to openly challenge unfair news coverage, both as a private citizen and President. U.S. Presidents complaining about news coverage of them has been normal practice for over two centuries.

This goes beyond simply complaining about the coverage. He's advocating for changing the law to restrict First Amendment rights. That's foolish coming from a private citizen and dangerous coming from a politician, no matter what political party.

The NY Times is not sacredly immune to criticism, as a private business. Hillary & Obama boldly pledged to destroy the U.S. coal industry.

Fair enough.
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Thad, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:45pm

Re: stop politics

Unless you acknowledge that all media has an approval rating of about 12% positive.

[Citation needed]

people only want echo chamber opinions or they have no interest. I enjoys the wonderful tech news here. If it is going to become another trump is the devil site let me know now and I'll find someplace that would leave me less happy in keeping me updated with tech news.

You...don't even understand the irony of putting those two sentences back-to-back, do you?
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Antikaon, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:46pm

Re: Re: Sigh
I was only criticizing the title not the underlying opinion. Perhaps I'll save that for later... :)

Wow. Somebody has opinions about the opinions on an opinion blog.
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Thad, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:46pm

Re: President Obama attacked Fox News
Because President Obama never advocated for legislative action to allow people to sue Fox News for criticizing him.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:49pm

Re: Sigh
Right off the bat, before the story can even be read the OPINION of the author is expressed.

Yes. This is an opinion site. We state opinions.

What's the problem now?

Instead, Trump supporters (and Clinton non-supporters), will just dismiss this as another attack piece. They'll never read your content and their (legitimate) distrust of the mainstream media will grow.

Wait. It's my responsibility that some people live in such a closed bubble they refuse to read anything that doesn't already meet their preconceived notions? Fuck that. I'm not here to coddle people. I'm here to state my opinion.

It's inflammatory and therefore draws eyeballs to advertising.

That's not why we do it. We do it because that's what we've always done. We state opinions. Have been for almost 20 years.
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Thad, 18 Nov 2016 @ 4:50pm

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
That's false equivalence, but sure, if you want to have a robust discussion about whether or not it's reasonable for protesters to interfere with traffic, or debate the merits of the electoral college, those are good topics.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 5:02pm

Re: Re:
"the leading lights"

The lights that lead .. ftfy
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 5:04pm

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
Somebody blogs about opinions of blogs that voice opinions.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 5:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh
Yeah, who do those protesters think they are anyhow.
It's not like other people have been allowed to protest and stuff, sheesh.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 5:19pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh
> Yeah, who do those protesters think they are anyhow.

Paid employees of George Soros, and the associated useful?
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Zarvus (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 7:05pm

YEP SURE WOULD BE NICE
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2016 @ 7:28pm

#godisdead
This rag should have died years ago, kept on life support by Uncle Sam, hope to hear a eulogy for it soon.
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Doug (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 7:58pm

Re:
Trump is probably the most distilled version of someone in public life who wantonly and proudly fails to consider his responses carefully. It is that exact quality, and very nearly only that quality, that made him electable. He has nothing else to offer.
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Doug (profile), 18 Nov 2016 @ 8:08pm

Re: Re: Sigh
Don't conflate Trump with the things Trump supporters want. Trump was a disaster as a candidate, is a disaster as a pres-elect, and will be a disaster as a president. We are playing into his hand if we think we need to sugar-coat that in order to somehow win over his supporters. You can sugar coat your dislike of Trump all you want and you will not win over his supporters.

What may win over his non-fringe supporters (of which there are some) is substantive progress on real issues that have a real effect on people's lives.

My most favorable interpretation of this election is this: no one supported the person Trump is; they supported him because he was a Rorschach inkblot of indeterminate nothingness onto which they could project the things they wanted, and they were rebelling against a political system that no longer really represents the people.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2016 @ 1:16am

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
Oooooh, yeah, that'll show him he's wrong. That's the sarcasm OF JUSTICE right there. Heck, it's almost a super power. maybe you can be the new superhero DC needs to revamp the Justice League and teach all the cissies and tru-scum the power that can be harnessed by a disabled polynesian tri-gender pyrofox-kin...

See how ^ added jack shit to the conversation? Learn from that.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2016 @ 1:23am

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
>they supported him because he was a Rorschach inkblot of indeterminate nothingness onto which they could project the things they wanted, and they were rebelling against a political system that no longer really represents the people.

Oh, no. Many of us knew EXACTLY what we were voting for, and determined that Trump, despite his many egregious flaws, was STILL THE LESSER EVIL.

Look on the bright side, the TPP is already dead and the man ain't even in office yet. He'll have to work pretty dang hard to screw us over harder than what he saved us from with that.

Add in the fact that he's already moderated some of his nuttier positions, and we all might end up pleasantly surprised.
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Hans, 19 Nov 2016 @ 1:35am

M & M writes "And, yes, I know that there are some folks who just flat out hate the NY Times and think that it lies and such. And I've certainly complained my fair share about weak or misleading coverage by the NY Times over the years, but it's still problematic when a President or President-elect is directly attacking any publication. It creates serious chilling effects on reporters."

You are completely out of touch with any political
reality. Whether it is your opinion or not, perhaps
your field of expertise is anywhere but the MSM.

The entire industry (MOP) has been aiding and abetting
the Socshevik movements for decades.

There where at least 30 plus reporters meeting with
the Clinton Crime Organization, several months before
the election to get their talking points. The bias is
so bad, that even a child can discern it.

Mr Mike, this is not your finest hour.
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Mark Wing, 19 Nov 2016 @ 2:23am

DOJ investigations for all of Trump's business competitors, media outlets and personal grudges coming in 3 ... 2 ... 1.
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DougW, 19 Nov 2016 @ 6:08am

NYTimes Hammers Trump
...just scan today's NYTimes for blatant instances of anti-Trump bias.

Example today: "As Trump Rises, So Do Some Hands Waving Confederate Battle Flags"

Above NYTimes news article smears Trump as a racist, by attempting to connect Trump with Confederate Flag displays by a few of his supporters.

Intentionally a bit subtle to put a small fig leaf over the smear, the NYTimes does paint a very clear theme from the very first sentence in that article:

"white supremacists" + "massacre of black churchgoers in Charleston" + "racist Confederate Flag" + "some Trump supporters with Confederate Flag" = "Trump is Racist"

The Times constantly publishes this type of subtle Trump-
hammering.

(P.S. @Thad -- start footnoting all your own assertions here... before using the old "citation needed" ploy)
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2016 @ 7:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh
I'm sure that is who it is - because everyone else is happy, content and does not have a worry in the world.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2016 @ 7:59am

Re:
You forgot to implicate Soros. 3/10 wouldent troll again.
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TDR, 19 Nov 2016 @ 9:05am

Re: Re: Sigh
At the same time, though, there does seem to be a change lately, in the past year or few. I've read this blog for years and until recently had never seen you stoop to using profanity. Not trying to be a finger-wagger and I wouldn't even bring it up otherwise, it's just that you used to almost never use it regardless of the article or response. It's like you've been losing your composure lately or something. I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't do, I was just making an observation. You'll do what you choose, I just thought you might want to know how you've been sounding lately, is all, since changes like that can affect how readers see you and what you say. Text has no tone of voice, so it's all in the words you choose. How you say something is often as important as what you say. I realize also that this is an opinion site, but it also has a reputation for being accurate, and how those opinions are presented affects how readily people will or may accept them. Just thought you should know.
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Groaker (profile), 19 Nov 2016 @ 9:23am

The NYT may have the right to lie and hide facts. Just like Fox and myriad others. But the warmongering that went on between the NYT and the Iraqi's, buying the adminstration's Iraqi lies. The NYT's willingness to hide Bush's use of torture and mass surveillance for a year because it might affect the 2004 election (especially after Comey). And other atrocities should forever bar the NYT from rising above green alien invasion stories in the subtabloids.

No American deserves a politician. Their clothes and assets should be stripped from them on entry into a political house, and not returned until the term is over. No more, no less, than when they entered.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2016 @ 1:33pm

NYTimes = "folded fertilizer"
All the "news" that's sh*t we print!
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Rekrul, 19 Nov 2016 @ 2:11pm

As I posted on another site, Trump is a bull and all of America will be his china shop.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2016 @ 3:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
"This goes beyond simply complaining about the coverage. He's advocating for changing the law to restrict First Amendment rights. That's foolish coming from a private citizen and dangerous coming from a politician, no matter what political party."

The First amendment was created in an era n which news papers and information was much like Youtube is to social content today.

Today there are at most 20 mainstream news organizations: CNN, CBS, MSNBC, NBC, FOX ABC (US), New York Times, Washing Post et.

It was never the intent of the founding fathers that only main stream news media should be able to express their (New York City) opinion while the rest of the country was shackled in their ability to express their opinion to the point that if it were not for social meada they could not do such.
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That One Guy (profile), 19 Nov 2016 @ 9:11pm

Re:
That's unfair to bulls. Mythbusters tested that one out and it turns out that actual bulls aren't the types to slam into shelves and break stuff randomly.

Go with perhaps a drunk in a china chop, or a kleptomaniac in a jewelry shop with the cameras turned off and the stock records destroyed, or a politician alone in a room where the sole records of the laws are held instead, that might be more accurate.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 6:21am

Just stop it man...
"but it's still problematic when a President or President-elect is directly attacking any publication. It creates serious chilling effects on reporters."

Once again, Micheal pulls transgressions out of his asshole and slings them at his pet-peeve. Trump said they were "wrong". He didn't say" "Stop it or else!", or even just: "Stop it." YOU stop. Stop making things up.

Anybody every notice that some calls out Mike's Trump bashing that he doubles-down (or even triples-down) said bashing?
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Groaker (profile), 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:01am

The chilling of lawful speech
Mr. Trump has no right to bully the members of this nation. As president-elect, and president to be, he must maintain equanimity in discourse. A trait he has yet to exhibit. A fairness to all -- a concept where I find little understanding on his part.

He is not 6 years old, but reputedly an adult. The presidency is not a kingship in which petty spites are to be indulged at whim.

The man has two months to grow up, but I don't think he will make it.

He may have a certain amount of immunity during his presidency, but should he live through that period it is unlikely he will spend a day out of court.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh
TPP was already critically injured, Trump had nothing to do with that.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:06am

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
Stop profanity?
Fuck that!

Just thought you should know.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:11am

Re:
You say that like this sort of shit had never been seen before, like it was new in this election cycle.

Historic low? Where ya been, under a rock?
You should research "Yellow Journalism".
You think Trump is undeserving of the criticisms? Why?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:13am

Re: Re: stop politics
I'm convinced that some people are unable to recognize the irony in things they do and say.
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OldMugwump (profile), 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:22am

Trump has 1st amendment rights too
Mike I'm usually with you, but not this time.

Trump has 1st amendment rights, too. Becoming POTUS doesn't include a vow of silence.

As long as he's not using the power of government against the NYT (or threatening to do so), he's within his rights.

These things work both ways.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:51am

Re:
Nyt shmucks never thought trump will win, so they did no care bad mouthing him. Remember saddam's wmd's?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:54am

Re:
Looks like nyt shmucks had death wish.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 9:08am

Nyt may have helped trump by biased coverage, as most made their minds early on. Nyt lies simply convinced people even more as time went on.
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Rapnel (profile), 20 Nov 2016 @ 11:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh
Since it's fairly obvious you derived that I was telling him he was wrong you seem perfectly qualified for interpretive duties at the Hineylick Center for the Rehabilitation of Crack Abuse Victims. Thank your insight, sir. May I have another?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2016 @ 4:10pm

Trump has always whined.
He confuses it with winning.
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Longtime TD reader and supporter, 20 Nov 2016 @ 8:17pm

Re: Re: Sigh
Mike, *you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts*, like the old saying goes. "Chilling effect" has a particular legal definition and argumentation, and cannot simply be argued however it may be convenient like you do in this article.

While correctly argued in your opinions of Trump's libel threats, you've also erred trying to mangle it to cover pretty much any 100%-First-Amendment-protected stated counterpoints to media reports ("attacking") or any (B.S.?) claims of negative business performance that politicians may make.

*Rather than appearing the proud patriot defending liberty you usually are with the fantastic TD coverage we all love and expect*, here you somehow manage to come off as a unfactual whiny hack who somehow managed to miss the grand irony of his own Trump critiques. We know this isn't your real quality level nor the website you want TD to be, and you are simply burned out from this year's politics like the rest of us are.

*I'm an anti-Trump voter who greatly welcomes his B.S. being called out*, but it's become impossible for me and the apparent majority of TD commenters to **not** notice some glaringly substandard politics articles this past year. Even a simple opinion piece like this one seems unnecessarily aborted with invalid logic and spurious evidence that seems more ruled by emotion than reason (perhaps in line with the TD swear word increase that other keen commenter observed — about which I otherwise honestly wouldn't "give a flying fuck").

Be as callous, snarky, angry, happy, or sad to others as you want to since I 100% agree with you that nobody's feelings/bubble should be protected as sacred or any coverage off-limits; however, please don't forget to check that each article has the usual TD diligence that we fans esteem and the polity sorely needs.

Thank you and keep up the good work!
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Mike Masnick (profile), 20 Nov 2016 @ 11:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
Mike, you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts, like the old saying goes. "Chilling effect" has a particular legal definition and argumentation, and cannot simply be argued however it may be convenient like you do in this article.

That's not true. Chilling effect does not have a special legal definition and argumentation. It's just a descriptive phrase. And it was used accurately and appropriately here.

While correctly argued in your opinions of Trump's libel threats, you've also erred trying to mangle it to cover pretty much any 100%-First-Amendment-protected stated counterpoints to media reports ("attacking") or any (B.S.?) claims of negative business performance that politicians may make.

What did I get wrong? You say that I'm wrong, but you don't say how. I never said that Trump was not allowed to say what he said, I pointed out why it was scary and dangerous that he was literally lying about publicly traded companies, something that could adversely impact shareholders. That's crazy for a President or President-elect to do -- and that's why I was concerned -- accurately -- about the chilling effects of Trump's statements.

You don't explain why they are wrong. You just disagree.
- here you somehow manage to come off as a unfactual whiny hack*
What facts did I get wrong?
- apparent majority of TD commenters *
Uh, it's a very small minority of commenters claiming that, and they're wrong. What we write about has remained perfectly consistent.

perhaps in line with the TD swear word increase

Similarly, there has been no swear word increase. So, nope.

Thank you and keep up the good work!

I will!
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2016 @ 4:01am

Re: Re: Sigh
Someone is finally getting it. All the name calling and labeling has rallied the troops. Conservatives are none of those things, but the left can't defend their policies so they have little left to do but try to bully the right into submission. The right has awakened and decided to do something about it. Until the left comes to the table, they will keep losing.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jan/25/cokie-roberts/have-democrats-lost -900-seats-state-legislatures-o/
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2016 @ 4:03am

Re: Re: Sigh
Yes, it is funny how the left demonizes success and wealth and then the author is afraid that Trump will wipe out billions in shareholder value. So are the rich major scumbags to be looked down upon or are we to worry about their shareholder value?

The NYT deserves to be put out of business. Something better will take its place. It is called creative destruction, something the author here has talked about in the past.
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The Wanderer (profile), 21 Nov 2016 @ 5:25am

Re: Re:
The Mythbusters test didn't use a valid model of a china shop, though. They had broad aisles, easily broad enough for the bull to fit through, and nothing actually on the shelves.

An actual china shop, as referenced in the saying, is something more like the one displayed here:

http://www.havilandchina.net/

(Literally the first Google image result for "china shop" without quotes.)

Aisles barely wide enough for one human being to fit through without turning sideways (much less a full-grown bull), packed densely with merchandise, to the point where it's easy for a loose sleeve (or flicking tail?) to brush something hard enough to knock it off the shelf.

And once the bull does accidentally knock something down, it seems likely that the noise and possible shrapnel might startle the bull enough to instinctively try to move away without taking as much consideration for what may be in the way, thus resulting in more things being knocked over and broken - and the cycle potentially repeats.

Possibly the model of bull behavior I'm using is wrong, and it would still be OK; possibly the bull would just remain standing still, rather than trying to move around in spaces too small for it to fit.

Until the actual experiment is carried out with something more like an actual china shop, however, I remain unconvinced. The Mythbusters experiment was nice, but it was based on an invalid model.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2016 @ 6:10am

Re: NYTimes Hammers Trump
"As Trump Rises, So Do Some Hands Waving Confederate Battle Flags"

The Times constantly publishes this type of subtle Trump- hammering.

Those folks waving those flags are his followers. He could say they're wrong, or try to distance himself from them. But he doesn't. That's not the Times' fault.

Ironically, they're waving the flag of the side that lost. So at least we know it's going to be a funny 4 years watching the nation's finest come out of the woodwork.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2016 @ 8:04am

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
Again...this link...

Can a conservative please chime in as to whether or not you guys actually trust politifact or not?

If it's about Trump getting a mostly false rating for his clever use of statistics, they're not to be trusted.

But this 900 seat link? It's right on the money.

Re-posting this same shit makes you guys look grossly inconsistent, if not downright hypocritical.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2016 @ 11:07am

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
"demonizes success and wealth"

When it is ill gotten gains - yes.
Martin Shkreli ring a bell?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2016 @ 11:10am

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
"are we to worry about their shareholder value?"

fyi ... many non-rich people own shares, the stock market is a very poor place to invest retirement savings. But do continue in your ignorance.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Nov 2016 @ 11:14am

Re: Trump has 1st amendment rights too
"he's within his rights"

In a similar fashion to .. a juvenile is within their rights to (insert immature bullshit).
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Longtime TD reader and supporter, 21 Nov 2016 @ 2:35pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sigh
Hey, thanks for the reply Mike, and to address what you said:

"Chilling effect does not have a special legal definition and argumentation. It's just a descriptive phrase."

It does in fact, and specifically refers to the consequences of explicitly legal and governmental actions. It doesn't simply refer to any situation where there could be discouraging negative consequences for speaking your mind. Your mama warning you not to say impolite things lest you get a time out is not a "chilling effect." Fearing an expensive libel case or government tax investigation prompted in retaliation for protected speech you write on TD definitely is. To clarify with another example, because "due process" has a particular legal argumentation, it would be objectively invalid to argue that a mechanic misbilling you is a "due process" violation.

If I was unclear before, calling either simply spoken/written counterpoints or bad claims (lies?) about business performance "a chilling effect" is objectively invalid given the legal argumentation of the term. It is not simply that people may casually disagree with your ideals here.

As for the status of commenters, I have quickly colored red the commenters someway criticizing your coverage in this complete screenshot ( http://bit.ly/2fjfV84 ) — a clear majority of named accounts (13 criticizing to 8 neutral/favorable) though I disagree with much they say. It's impractical to do this for every article where this is observed, but by now you have to accept that at the very least it's not merely a "very small minority of commenters" who feel this way. Perception may not always be reality, but this feeling that a few substandard articles have sneaked there way onto the site this year cannot simply be dismissed as noise or coincidence; it's worth ruminating.

Again, I want to emphasize that TD's coverage is mostly great and I am very thankful for TD over the years, and your patriotism for liberty. Just like you, I only want TD to be the best it can be!
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Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 23 Nov 2016 @ 2:26am

Re:
That is not a partisan thing, and "those who disagree with me" =/= "left."
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Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 23 Nov 2016 @ 2:31am

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
America doesn't really have a left as such. There's progressive, liberal, libertarian, moderate conservatives, and various factions in the alt-right.

Can we please stop calling everyone who disagrees with the far right factions "leftists?" This really annoys me because it's not true. You want left wing politics? Go and check out Jeremy Corbyn. That is left wing.

I don't often see progressives advocating state control of industry.
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Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 23 Nov 2016 @ 2:33am

Re: NYTimes Hammers Trump
What about the things he said about Mexicans?
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Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 23 Nov 2016 @ 2:34am

Re: Re: Re: Sigh
@ Doug it's a shame I can only give this one Insightful vote.
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Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 23 Nov 2016 @ 2:37am

Re: Trump has 1st amendment rights too
Fair dues, but what about his responsibilities? They should be kept in a careful balance. No one has a right to be an irresponsible jerk.
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OldMugwump (profile), 14 Mar 2017 @ 11:17am

Re: Re: Trump has 1st amendment rights too
If you support freedom, everyone has the right to be an irresponsible jerk.

"Freedom" to do only those things that other people think are responsible and admirable is hardly meaningful.

Freedom is all about being allowed to do things that other people don't approve of.

(sorry for the late reply)
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