No, no, no, nope, nononononono no! Absolutely nothing like that.
And actually - if you think about it hard enough, shouting Fire in a crowded theatre isn't that bad.
If there is a panic/stampede that causes injury then it is clear that the authorities haven't lived up to their responsibilities in providing suitable evacuation routes and clearly informing their customers about them. So any problem is really their responsiobility.
If on the other hand they have provided good evacuation procedures then everyone will elave the building calmy and in order and no great harm will have been done.
The student said something about a teacher that could have cost her career. Or made her well qualified to be chief inspector of schools like Chris Woodhead in the UK.
When he was a teacher he had a relationship with a 17 year old pupil (he claims it only started after she left school but his then wife says that this claim is untrue)
In 1999, he ..[said that] pupil/teacher relationships could be 'experiential and educative on both sides'.
And nothing about this threatens the secrecy of the ballot. Your vote remains just as secret if selfies are allowed: exactly as secret as you want it to be.
Not if your landlord threatens to make you homeless unless you take the picture to prove you voted for him.
However I don't think the law is a good way to fix this - a technical solution is needed
A non-modified picture of your car parked in a "residents only" space IS proof of your car being parked in a particular space at the time the picture was taken.
How do you prove it is non-modified?
But my point is that the general public is not that sophisticated (yet) - nor are they sophisticated enough to take your point on board either.
Again, you can address voter fraud without outlawing all photographs.
Which is why I said that a technical solution was preferable.
At present I can't think of such a solution - the best I can come up with is that you vote for a candidate by placing an odd number of X's in his box and an even number in all other candidates boxes. That way you can vote for one candidate, take a photo and then change you vote by adding second X in his box and then vote for someone else.
The type of person likely to be coerced by a landlord or employer doesn't know how to use photoshop - esp not well enough to fool someone who zooms in.
Re: Re: I have to agree with BentFranklin there...
If a person can have a spoiled ballot replaced, the photo only proves that filled in a ballot in a particular fashion, and not what they put in the ballot box. ...
True - but I'm not sure that this is enough to stop a determined coercer - I've been trying to think of some modifications to the polling station procedure that would make these mechanisms watertight - nut so far I can always think of a get around.
A photograph is proof of nothing. I agree but tell that to the parking enforcement officer whose warden took a picture of my car parked in a "residents only" space.
Those with technical savvy are well aware that photographs don't mean much these days - but the general population (esp those whose votes are likely to be coerced in this way) doesn't yet have that level of sophistication.
1. If someone is engaged in voter fraud, do you think they really care about breaking the law that says "don't photograph your ballot"?
It isn't as simple as that.
Consider the situation where a landord wishes to coerce his tenants into voting a certain way. HE may not be bothered about breaking the law but THEY are in a much stronger position to resist his pressure if he is asking them to do something that is illegal and enforced in the polling station.
2. If someone is engaged in voter fraud, go after them for voter fraud, not photographing a ballot.
Photographing a ballot is teh evidence of fraud so the two are inseparable. 3. If someone is engaged in voter fraud, it's unlikely they're then posting about it on Facebook.
Well if it is legal to do that then it makes it much easier for our coecive landlord to check up on his tenants.
I'm sorry but you aren't addressing the kind of voter fraud that secret ballots were invented to deal with.
"Whatever is not forbidden is compulsory" (T H White - later adopted by Murray Gell-Mann).
The rules of secret ballots were originally invented to counteract voter compulsion/bullying by landlords, employers etc.
If you can prove that you voted in a certain way then it is inevitable that bad people will find ways to force anyone over whom they have influence to do so.
Unfortunately this would seem to put a limit on free expression unless the voting mechanism can be designed in such a way that you can take selfies in the booth - but that will never amount to conclusive proof of how you voted.
Actually the Romans had already made the step forward and the concept of being a Roman Citizen already meant something similar to the modern concept of nationhood. In fact it went beyond that - you could be a Jew AND a Roman Citizen (as St Paul was). The founding fathers of the US seem to have leant heavily on the Roman concept of citizenship in order to accommodate a plurality of traditions within one nation.
Now the Roman traditions did in fact continue for quite a while - principally (until 1453) in what we now refer to as the Byzantine Empire (although everyone at the time still called it the Roman empire).
The situation you describe with warlords, kings etc came about gradually as a result of the disintegration of the Roman empire in the West - so the move away from the Empire to warlords was associated with a breakdown of civilisation - not a comfortable analogy with what corporations are doing now but probably a good one.
Seeing corporations as the modern equivalents of Goths, Huns, Vikings and Vandals might be a good way to inform public policy!
Huh - By videoing the fight they are providing vital evidence that could be used by the police later.
Any sensible police chief would commend them for doing so.
In the UK I have never seen any policeman or police representative recommend that you should physically help an officer in a way that puts you in any danger. They always say that the only assistance they would expect is that you help by calling for backup.
Yep - notice that the name calling is once again used to discredit an argument by conflating it with another argument that is "commonly accetpted top be discredited".
It doesn't matter if the two arguments are completely unrelated - so long as your words have a vaguely plausible ring.
Now add "Luddite" to the list that already includes:
The US needs to think about what would have happened had this treaty been in place when Deepwater Horizon went up. The decisions of US courts on compensation would surely have been subject to some kind of review under ISDS and I am sure that BP would have had to accept far less liability than they actually did in the end. Of course one could argue that this would have been a good thing - since what BP ended up paying was well over the top - especially when compared with the relatively light treatment received by Haliburton (who were after all much more directly to blame).
The European parliament has one huge advantage over national parliaments. It can never be controlled by a single party. This means that the lobbyists have a much bigger job controlling it than they do for (say) the UK parliament.
To make matters worse the elections to theEuropean parliament are generally not synchronised with any national elections and hence a disproportionate number of "protest party" candidates are usually elected.
On the post: School, Police Chief Must Face Lawsuit Brought By Student Suspended For 10 Days For Tweeting 'Actually, Yes'
Re: Re:
No, no, no, nope, nononononono no! Absolutely nothing like that.
And actually - if you think about it hard enough, shouting Fire in a crowded theatre isn't that bad.
If there is a panic/stampede that causes injury then it is clear that the authorities haven't lived up to their responsibilities in providing suitable evacuation routes and clearly informing their customers about them. So any problem is really their responsiobility.
If on the other hand they have provided good evacuation procedures then everyone will elave the building calmy and in order and no great harm will have been done.
On the post: School, Police Chief Must Face Lawsuit Brought By Student Suspended For 10 Days For Tweeting 'Actually, Yes'
Harm to her career?
Or made her well qualified to be chief inspector of schools like Chris Woodhead in the UK.
When he was a teacher he had a relationship with a 17 year old pupil (he claims it only started after she left school but his then wife says that this claim is untrue)
In 1999, he ..[said that] pupil/teacher relationships could be 'experiential and educative on both sides'.
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re: Re:
Not if your landlord threatens to make you homeless unless you take the picture to prove you voted for him.
However I don't think the law is a good way to fix this - a technical solution is needed
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re: Re: #17 - Richard - Re: Re:
How do you prove it is non-modified?
But my point is that the general public is not that sophisticated (yet) - nor are they sophisticated enough to take your point on board either.
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Which is why I said that a technical solution was preferable.
At present I can't think of such a solution - the best I can come up with is that you vote for a candidate by placing an odd number of X's in his box and an even number in all other candidates boxes. That way you can vote for one candidate, take a photo and then change you vote by adding second X in his box and then vote for someone else.
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Re: Re: 30,000 mAH?
But this is now in the territory of car batteries which are listed in Ah.
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re: Re: There is a problem here
The type of person likely to be coerced by a landlord or employer doesn't know how to use photoshop - esp not well enough to fool someone who zooms in.
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re: Re: I have to agree with BentFranklin there...
True - but I'm not sure that this is enough to stop a determined coercer - I've been trying to think of some modifications to the polling station procedure that would make these mechanisms watertight - nut so far I can always think of a get around.
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re:
I agree but tell that to the parking enforcement officer whose warden took a picture of my car parked in a "residents only" space.
Those with technical savvy are well aware that photographs don't mean much these days - but the general population (esp those whose votes are likely to be coerced in this way) doesn't yet have that level of sophistication.
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re: Re: I have to agree with BentFranklin there...
By then it will be too late - because the fraudsters will be in office!
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re: Re:
It isn't as simple as that.
Consider the situation where a landord wishes to coerce his tenants into voting a certain way. HE may not be bothered about breaking the law but THEY are in a much stronger position to resist his pressure if he is asking them to do something that is illegal and enforced in the polling station.
2. If someone is engaged in voter fraud, go after them for voter fraud, not photographing a ballot.
Photographing a ballot is teh evidence of fraud so the two are inseparable.
3. If someone is engaged in voter fraud, it's unlikely they're then posting about it on Facebook.
Well if it is legal to do that then it makes it much easier for our coecive landlord to check up on his tenants.
I'm sorry but you aren't addressing the kind of voter fraud that secret ballots were invented to deal with.
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
Re:
Having said that I'm having some trouble coming up with such a solution!
On the post: New Hampshire Law Banning Ballot Selfies Struck Down As Unconstitutional
There is a problem here
"Whatever is not forbidden is compulsory" (T H White - later adopted by Murray Gell-Mann).
The rules of secret ballots were originally invented to counteract voter compulsion/bullying by landlords, employers etc.
If you can prove that you voted in a certain way then it is inevitable that bad people will find ways to force anyone over whom they have influence to do so.
Unfortunately this would seem to put a limit on free expression unless the voting mechanism can be designed in such a way that you can take selfies in the booth - but that will never amount to conclusive proof of how you voted.
On the post: US Says 'No' To EU Plan For New Corporate Sovereignty Courts: So What Happens Now With TAFTA/TTIP?
Re: During the late middle ages / Renaissance...
Actually the Romans had already made the step forward and the concept of being a Roman Citizen already meant something similar to the modern concept of nationhood. In fact it went beyond that - you could be a Jew AND a Roman Citizen (as St Paul was). The founding fathers of the US seem to have leant heavily on the Roman concept of citizenship in order to accommodate a plurality of traditions within one nation.
Now the Roman traditions did in fact continue for quite a while - principally (until 1453) in what we now refer to as the Byzantine Empire (although everyone at the time still called it the Roman empire).
The situation you describe with warlords, kings etc came about gradually as a result of the disintegration of the Roman empire in the West - so the move away from the Empire to warlords was associated with a breakdown of civilisation - not a comfortable analogy with what corporations are doing now but probably a good one.
Seeing corporations as the modern equivalents of Goths, Huns, Vikings and Vandals might be a good way to inform public policy!
On the post: Boston Police Commissioner Wants Cameras Further Away From Cops, Criminal Charges For Not Assisting Officers
Re: Videoing
Of course I am assuming that the officer is behaving correctly at this point....
On the post: Boston Police Commissioner Wants Cameras Further Away From Cops, Criminal Charges For Not Assisting Officers
Videoing
Any sensible police chief would commend them for doing so.
In the UK I have never seen any policeman or police representative recommend that you should physically help an officer in a way that puts you in any danger. They always say that the only assistance they would expect is that you help by calling for backup.
On the post: Verizon Thinks It's A Good Idea To Mock New Jersey Taxpayers After Ripping Them Off For Years
Re: Re: Standard, if sleazy, debate tactic
It doesn't matter if the two arguments are completely unrelated - so long as your words have a vaguely plausible ring.
Now add "Luddite" to the list that already includes:
**ist
**phobic
**-denier
On the post: US Says 'No' To EU Plan For New Corporate Sovereignty Courts: So What Happens Now With TAFTA/TTIP?
BP
On the post: US Says 'No' To EU Plan For New Corporate Sovereignty Courts: So What Happens Now With TAFTA/TTIP?
Re:
FTFY
On the post: US Says 'No' To EU Plan For New Corporate Sovereignty Courts: So What Happens Now With TAFTA/TTIP?
Re: Re: That's easy enough to answer
To make matters worse the elections to theEuropean parliament are generally not synchronised with any national elections and hence a disproportionate number of "protest party" candidates are usually elected.
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