So shall we chock this one up as yet another of the several lines of conversation, in this comment thread alone, that you are running away from?
I am literally in the middle of writing out a response. Give me a break with the childishness. I'm happy to take time out of my incredibly busy day just for you. Reply is coming soon. You keep coming up with questions. I'm happy to answer them, in detail, with complete frankness and honesty. You know, the opposite of Mike.
And yet, when Mike says that to you, you accuse him of avoiding the question.
So why are you avoiding the question?
You said that you believe that "if a person mixes his labor with something to create something new, he has a moral claim, superior to others, to that thing."
So it's a simple question. You built the chair. That is your labor. Do you have a moral right to that chair?
Don't avoid it. Don't equivocate. Do you own the chair?
Oh, you're playing the "I'm running away card," even though I sat here for hours and hours explaining myself in great detail as I answered question after question--something Mike has never done and will never do. I am quite obviously more forthcoming than Mike. By a mile.
Yes, I said if you build something, you have a superior moral claim. I didn't flesh out all the possibilities. That was a general claim. It was an oversimplification that did not account for all possibilities.
I asked for more facts, but you didn't supply them. So I'll supply my own. Using materials that belong to another, without their knowledge or permission, takes those materials from somebody else who has a superior moral claim. So, no, morally speaking, the chair maker does not have a superior moral claim, under these facts.
I assume you have a point, or some kind of "gotcha!" Why not just jump to the punchline and save us both some time? Thanks.
Still waiting. Why are you afraid to answer my question?
Sigh. It's not a terribly interesting question. Does the neighbor know you're taking the sticks? Do you want me to apply the law of a certain state? Etc. I need more info.
Again totally ignoring the fact that 1 & 2 are interrelated, and the Lockean notion of ownership from labour is nowhere near as obvious or natural when applied to nonrivalrous goods. But you know that, and thus you are attempting to keep them separate because you know you don't have a cohesive overall argument.
You're right about one thing though: it's the excludability that matters. And one class of goods -- rivalrous ones -- has natural excludability. The other class of goods -- non-rivalrous ones -- has absolutely no natural excludability, indeed that's the very definition of non-rivalrous.
The case for artificial excludability for non-rivalrous goods is an different and far less obvious moral argument than that for societally reinforcing the natural excludability of rivalrous goods. And you are avoiding making that case, because you know you can't make it very strongly.
Your argument, I believe, is that there is no moral claim to nonrivalrous information. As a counterexample, I’ll point to your privacy interests. Should there be no privacy since the information is nonrivalrous? I don’t think anyone thinks that. The people on TD generally place great value in their privacy, despite its nonrivalrousness, in my experience. Simply saying something is nonrivalrous does not answer the moral question about granting people rights in it. People are morally justified in their privacy despite its nonrivalrousness. Do you agree?
The reason the nonrivalrous thing creates a STRONGER moral claim is because of Locke’s proviso about leaving “enough and as good” for others. The idea is simply that everybody has an obligation to leave enough in the commons so that others may appropriate things for their own needs. As long as someone does not fail to leave “enough and as good” for others, there is no moral inequity: “For he that leaves as much as another can make use of, does as good as take nothing at all.” John Locke, Two Treatises of Government, Book II, Section 33.
This proviso is fundamental to Locke’s theory: When the proviso is satisfied, the acquirer is morally justified in excluding others because he is not impairing the needs of others with his ownership of the thing. (There are other provisos, but I’m simplifying things here.) With rivalrous things, if one person uses it, another cannot. This diminishes the commons, and the “enough and as good” proviso places moral limits on how much one can take.
But with nonrivalrous things, such as copyrights, the commons are not diminished. An author has a copyright in his work, which protects his particular expression. This does not diminish the commons, that is, the public domain, as this particular expression did not exist beforehand. The “enough and as good” proviso is easily satisfied: The author leaves the public domain as he found it, and he has not taken from the commons.
Of course, copyright promotes the creation of new works and actually adds to the public domain. It does the opposite of what property rights in rivalrous things do. Thus, it has a stronger moral claim: It not only does not take from the commons, it adds to it.
There’s a lot more to the argument than that. And there's lots of counterarguments. If you’re interested in this stuff, I highly recommend Prof. Gordon’s article: Wendy J. Gordon, A Property Right in Self-Expression: Equality and Individualism in the Natural Law of Intellectual Property, 102 Yale L.J. 1533 (1993). Source: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/IPCoop/93gord.html And I recommend Prof. Hughes’ article: Justin Hughes, The Philosophy of Intellectual Property, 77 Geo. L.J. 287 (1988). Source: http://pages.uoregon.edu/koopman/courses_readings/phil123-net/property/hughes_phil_ip.pdf
Much has been written about Locke as applied to intellectual property. Check it out! The fact is, John Locke himself advocated for a copyright term of life plus 50 or 70 years: “[I]t may be reasonable to limit their property to a certain number of years after the death of the author, or the first printing of the book, as, suppose, fifty or seventy years.” 1 Peter King, The Life of John Locke 375, 387 (1830).
lol okay. Well, I'm not playing this game -- instead of answering questions you're just repeatedly asking me to re-ask them. I mark this down as you running away from offering real answers, you can view it how you like.
I sat here hour after hour answering question after question, and then it was time to leave. I'm sure some people asked me some questions after I left, but the truth is I haven't had a chance to read them yet. Hard as it is this may be to believe, I have other obligations. After I logged out last night, I ended up staying up very late to make up on the work that I did not do because I was here answering questions. Today, I'm working extra hours to make up for the time that was lost yesterday. I logged in today, and I saw one of the last post was you claiming I'd run away. Give me a break. At some point I have to leave. If you think there are any questions in particular that I'm too scared to answer, then produce said questions. I will give you an answer. It's really that simple. But give me a break with the running away thing. I'm not scared to answer any questions. I think I explaine myself more fully and defend my position better than most people here. And despite the constant abuse, my posts being hidden, and the increasing difficulty of reading nested replies, I stuck with it for several hours yesterday. Give me a break with the running away thing, dude.
I'm not re-stating questions from a few comments ago. Stop trying to turn this into a silly game. Start offering up some honest replies to the many threads you've run away from.
It's easy to claim that I'm running away from questions. But it's much harder to ask me questions I won't answer. Prove to everybody that I'm running away. What are the specific questions I won't answer? Be specific.
They are all up there, waiting for your reply, including the assertion that your morality is based on childish selfishness (care to respond?) and that your refusal to acknowledge the importance of non-rivalrousess is facile (care to revisit?) Not to mention all the earlier points about your transparently disingenuous debate tactics (you ran away from those one ages ago)
OK, since you haven't provided links to the questions above, I'm just going to have to go from what you've said here. If you want something more specific, you need to ask questions are more specific.
1, Childish selfishness: I assume you think that the "I made it; it's mine" thing is childish and selfish. Is that it? it's hard to tell since you're not being specific. That Lockean notion of ownership from labor is literally the basis of most property systems around the world. Are you seriously trying to brush off centuries of property law with a couple negative adjectives? I can't tell if you're just not aware of the law and its history. it seems to be the case. Have you studied this stuff at all? Are you denying that Lockean notions are not a part of the property system?
2. Nonrivalrousness: I happen to the think the nonrivalrousness thing is not a big deal. You disagree. Again, centuries of law are on my side. Patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, publicity rights, privacy rights, etc. Almost every country around the world on multiple dimensions affords property rights to nonrivalrous things. It's the excludability that matters, right? You seem to think I'm crazy for thinking this, but again I have to wonder if you've just never studied property law. Have you?
3. Debate tactics: I'm happy to address whatever your question is here, but I can't figure out what it is. What are you getting at? Be specific. Thanks.
Anyway, I'll check back in tonight. I await your detailed questions.
There are already a bunch of questions and points above you haven't responded to. In fact, of all the threads you ran away from, the only one you seem to have found time to respond to today is the one accusing you of running away. Funny, that.
Good. You're here. You are claiming that I'm running away from questions. Back up that claim. Ask me the specific questions you think I'm running away from, and I will answer them directly and honestly. It should be easy. Copy and paste if you want. No more generalizations. Be specific. What are the exact questions that I'm running away from?
Excuses. The truth is nobody was accepting your circuitous, bullshit answers -- they were demanding actual honesty -- so you gave up and ran away.
I've been waiting for an hour. Where did you go? I want to answer each and every question that you think I'm avoiding. I am heading out soon, but I will check in this evening. Post that list! I want to dive into each and every question until you are satisfied.
Excuses. The truth is nobody was accepting your circuitous, bullshit answers -- they were demanding actual honesty -- so you gave up and ran away.
I've been waiting for an hour. Where did you go? I want to answer each and every question that you think I'm avoiding. I am heading out soon, but I will check in this evening. Post that list! I want to dive into each and every question until you are satisfied.
Excuses. The truth is nobody was accepting your circuitous, bullshit answers -- they were demanding actual honesty -- so you gave up and ran away.
Attacking my integrity and credibility? Super angry? Thinks anyone who disagrees with him is dishonest? You sound just like someone I know. Hmm...
Just to prove that I'm not running away, I will take time out of my busy day and devote it you. You're that important. Ask me anything, and I will respond swiftly, honestly, and directly. I'm happy to do it. Fire away, friend. I don't have time for the pile-on. But I will answer your questions, and only your questions. Shoot! Give me your best. Show everyone how I'm running away. I can't wait.
Don't bother -- he ran away. Just as he did on the New Year's post once I called out his obvious childish tactics.
Just remember these threads: they will be handy links next time he accuses others of refusing to engage.
Refused to engage? LOL! I sat here for hours yesterday and engaged several people at once directly and honestly. I'm working today. I wish I had time to continue the lengthy discussions we've had already, but I need to make up for the time I spent here yesterday as it is.
The hypocrisy is in the fact that you are being critical of others because you perceived that they are doing what you yourself admittedly did.
Please link to and quote where I was "critical of others" because I "perceived that they are doing" what I myself "admittedly" do. I'm happy to address your criticism, but your basis has not been established yet.
This, again, exposes what kind of dishonest person you really are. Natural law is what exists outside of government. Copy protection laws are a result of government. There is no natural law entitling anyone to benefit from their labor. If you spent all your time building a nice sand castle or digging a hole at the beach that doesn't entitle you to anything. No one forced you to build or dig anything. If you don't like the fact that no one wants to pay you to dig holes at the beach then don't do it. But to force everyone else to comply with your demands just because you did something is not something you are entitled to. Until you can have the honesty to admit that copy protection laws are not natural it would be impossible for you to have a serious discussion on the matter. By refusing to acknowledge this simple self evident truth you are refusing to have an honest discussion and are only showing what kind of dishonest person you continue to be.
Wow. The insults are strong with you. If you'd like to discuss natural law more with me, stop with the insults. I love natural law. I'm happy to discuss it with anyone. Well, anyone except serial abusers as you're being now. Seriously. Drop the 'tude, dude. Make an argument without insulting me, and I'll gladly respond.
It is your perception that their beliefs are subjective. Your criticism is that they are injecting your perception of their subjective belief into what is best. Yet you admittedly do the same.
I gotcha now. Yes, I think everyone instills their subjective beliefs into what they think is right and wrong. There's no such thing as total objectivity.
Ahh, you're a self proclaimed expert. Are we really supposed to take you seriously just because you said so?
You're the one quoting Wikipedia. Have you read Beckett, Wheaton, or their progenies? I have. And I've read lots of commentary discussing them. It's difficult to discuss this with you if you're insulting me the whole time and you haven't even read the opinions. Sorry, but that's the truth.
You are ignoring the fact that creative output is, in addition to being intangible, non-rivalrous. And that changes the moral situation drastically. The notion that a person has a natural right to the fruits of their labour is an easy thing to define and understand regarding rivalrous goods; it is not so simple with non-rivalrous ones, and you are ignoring that fact (and for the first time I'm not going to accuse you of willful ignorance -- I think you just genuinely haven't thought this through).
I have thought it through. I simply disagree that the nonrivalrous thing changes the calculus much. The value isn’t in how easy it is copy. The value is in the author’s time, energy, money, skill, etc. that went into creating the thing. It’s also in that author as a person, for his or her own sake.
"Ownership" is a concept that relies entirely on rivalrousness.
That’s simply untrue. Intangible property is owned. Ownership is the legal relations between a person and the public vis-à-vis a given thing. Whether that thing is corporeal or incorporeal, rivalrous or nonrivalrous, it’s still a thing that can be owned.
My moral right to deprive you of use of my property exists because the only other option is you depriving me of my use of my property. It's a zero-sum game. Not so with creative works. There is no way that you using, publishing, sharing, altering or performing my works can limit my ability to use, publish, share, alter or perform my works, and vice versa. There is no rivalry, and thus no need for either of us to be deprived of use of the work.
You’re deprived of my work because it’s mine. I created it. You didn't. My labor created it. I have the moral claim to it because I expended time, energy, money, skill, etc. into creating it and you didn’t. If I spend a year writing a book, you have no moral claim to benefit from my labors. You didn’t earn it.
And I would argue that to demand deprivation, to demand control and limitation of people's freedom, where none is necessary or natural and where this is no rivalry or scarcity, is fundamentally immoral.
It’s completely natural. It comes from the natural law. What’s unnatural is reaping where you have not sown. I get that you disagree with me, but I don’t think you’re dishonest. I hope you can afford me the same courtesy. I simply don’t think you have any moral claim to download a work that is for sale (or otherwise) that you didn’t create. The fact that it’s easy for you to do does not address the moral issue. It’s easy to do lots of things that are not morally right.
You really twisted what you quoted in as much as you twist the constitution and the intent of the founding fathers. You haven't really provided evidence for your claims, all you managed to do is to quote things and twist their intent as per usual.
"Property in literary productions, before publication"
Once published there is no natural right limiting its distribution.
"I can find many applying it. I provided a cite to one case."
As usual even your own citation doesn't really support your claim as you say. Just like you twist the constitution you twist everything you quote.
"What have you cited?"
The constitution for one.
Here is another citation
"The "natural right" aspect of the doctrine was repudiated by the courts in the United Kingdom (Donaldson v. Beckett, 1774) and the United States (Wheaton v. Peters, 1834). In both countries, the courts found that copyright is a limited right created by the legislature under statutes and subject to the conditions and terms the legislature sees fit to impose."
The overwhelming majority of texts disagree with you and even the texts that IP extremists here quote are often twisted to mean something they don't (how badly you twist the constitution should bring into suspect anything you say)
You're all over the place. I don't know where to start. The meaning of the Copyright Clause? The holding of Donaldson v. Beckett? The holding of Wheaton v. Peters? My understanding runs far deeper than the Wikipedia article. I'm having trouble seeing how the game is worth the candle with you. The insults aren't helping.
Still haven't answered either of my questions. Waiting to hear WHY that resonates with your subjective understanding of right and wrong, what that subjective understanding is and why we should agree with it. I also would like to know what you mean by "thing" -- what are the boundaries of a novel or a song or an image as a "thing"? You are relying on the implicit meaning of simple words which really only have meaning in relation to physical property -- if you want to use them here, you need to define them in this context and explain why you think it's appropriate for us to use them when there is no reason or need to.
Still waiting for you to stop dodging the question, stop making increasingly pretentious appeals to authority (seriously dude, you sound like a hipster-philosopher humanities student who has never had an original thought in his life) and give us some honest answers.
it's quite obvious what you're doing. I clearly am more forthcoming than Mike with my beliefs, and you know it. You're asking me to explain how I determine right from wrong. That's a great question. It's a philosophical issue that I'm not qualified to answer. I can only tell what I believe, explicitly, and tell you the philosophy that i ground it in. You want me to defend all of morality on some deeper level. I can't do it. I'm not a philosopher. The best I can do is tell you that I have a moral compass. I think everyone does. How that moral compass works, I honestly don't know. Can you tell me anything that you believe to be right, and then explain to me in the level of detail that you want from me? Maybe you understand this better than me. I'd love to know how it works if you do. I am being as honest with you as I can. The "thing" is the work, in the copyright sense. I don't understand what you want me to say in addition to that. It's not a physical thing--except insofar as it's fixated initially. But the work itself is incorporeal. As is all intangible property. What don't you understand?
You dishonestly miss the point. You complain about others injecting your perception of their subjective beliefs yet you admittedly inject your own.
Good grief wit the insults. I just feel sorry for you at this point. When did I "complain about others injecting [my] perception of their subjective beliefs"? I'm not sure I even understand what that means. Who is injecting my perceptions into their beliefs?
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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I am literally in the middle of writing out a response. Give me a break with the childishness. I'm happy to take time out of my incredibly busy day just for you. Reply is coming soon. You keep coming up with questions. I'm happy to answer them, in detail, with complete frankness and honesty. You know, the opposite of Mike.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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So why are you avoiding the question?
You said that you believe that "if a person mixes his labor with something to create something new, he has a moral claim, superior to others, to that thing."
So it's a simple question. You built the chair. That is your labor. Do you have a moral right to that chair?
Don't avoid it. Don't equivocate. Do you own the chair?
Oh, you're playing the "I'm running away card," even though I sat here for hours and hours explaining myself in great detail as I answered question after question--something Mike has never done and will never do. I am quite obviously more forthcoming than Mike. By a mile.
Yes, I said if you build something, you have a superior moral claim. I didn't flesh out all the possibilities. That was a general claim. It was an oversimplification that did not account for all possibilities.
I asked for more facts, but you didn't supply them. So I'll supply my own. Using materials that belong to another, without their knowledge or permission, takes those materials from somebody else who has a superior moral claim. So, no, morally speaking, the chair maker does not have a superior moral claim, under these facts.
I assume you have a point, or some kind of "gotcha!" Why not just jump to the punchline and save us both some time? Thanks.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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Sigh. It's not a terribly interesting question. Does the neighbor know you're taking the sticks? Do you want me to apply the law of a certain state? Etc. I need more info.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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You're right about one thing though: it's the excludability that matters. And one class of goods -- rivalrous ones -- has natural excludability. The other class of goods -- non-rivalrous ones -- has absolutely no natural excludability, indeed that's the very definition of non-rivalrous.
The case for artificial excludability for non-rivalrous goods is an different and far less obvious moral argument than that for societally reinforcing the natural excludability of rivalrous goods. And you are avoiding making that case, because you know you can't make it very strongly.
Your argument, I believe, is that there is no moral claim to nonrivalrous information. As a counterexample, I’ll point to your privacy interests. Should there be no privacy since the information is nonrivalrous? I don’t think anyone thinks that. The people on TD generally place great value in their privacy, despite its nonrivalrousness, in my experience. Simply saying something is nonrivalrous does not answer the moral question about granting people rights in it. People are morally justified in their privacy despite its nonrivalrousness. Do you agree?
The reason the nonrivalrous thing creates a STRONGER moral claim is because of Locke’s proviso about leaving “enough and as good” for others. The idea is simply that everybody has an obligation to leave enough in the commons so that others may appropriate things for their own needs. As long as someone does not fail to leave “enough and as good” for others, there is no moral inequity: “For he that leaves as much as another can make use of, does as good as take nothing at all.” John Locke, Two Treatises of Government, Book II, Section 33.
This proviso is fundamental to Locke’s theory: When the proviso is satisfied, the acquirer is morally justified in excluding others because he is not impairing the needs of others with his ownership of the thing. (There are other provisos, but I’m simplifying things here.) With rivalrous things, if one person uses it, another cannot. This diminishes the commons, and the “enough and as good” proviso places moral limits on how much one can take.
But with nonrivalrous things, such as copyrights, the commons are not diminished. An author has a copyright in his work, which protects his particular expression. This does not diminish the commons, that is, the public domain, as this particular expression did not exist beforehand. The “enough and as good” proviso is easily satisfied: The author leaves the public domain as he found it, and he has not taken from the commons.
Of course, copyright promotes the creation of new works and actually adds to the public domain. It does the opposite of what property rights in rivalrous things do. Thus, it has a stronger moral claim: It not only does not take from the commons, it adds to it.
There’s a lot more to the argument than that. And there's lots of counterarguments. If you’re interested in this stuff, I highly recommend Prof. Gordon’s article: Wendy J. Gordon, A Property Right in Self-Expression: Equality and Individualism in the Natural Law of Intellectual Property, 102 Yale L.J. 1533 (1993). Source: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/IPCoop/93gord.html And I recommend Prof. Hughes’ article: Justin Hughes, The Philosophy of Intellectual Property, 77 Geo. L.J. 287 (1988). Source: http://pages.uoregon.edu/koopman/courses_readings/phil123-net/property/hughes_phil_ip.pdf
Much has been written about Locke as applied to intellectual property. Check it out! The fact is, John Locke himself advocated for a copyright term of life plus 50 or 70 years: “[I]t may be reasonable to limit their property to a certain number of years after the death of the author, or the first printing of the book, as, suppose, fifty or seventy years.” 1 Peter King, The Life of John Locke 375, 387 (1830).
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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lol okay. Well, I'm not playing this game -- instead of answering questions you're just repeatedly asking me to re-ask them. I mark this down as you running away from offering real answers, you can view it how you like.
I sat here hour after hour answering question after question, and then it was time to leave. I'm sure some people asked me some questions after I left, but the truth is I haven't had a chance to read them yet. Hard as it is this may be to believe, I have other obligations. After I logged out last night, I ended up staying up very late to make up on the work that I did not do because I was here answering questions. Today, I'm working extra hours to make up for the time that was lost yesterday. I logged in today, and I saw one of the last post was you claiming I'd run away. Give me a break. At some point I have to leave. If you think there are any questions in particular that I'm too scared to answer, then produce said questions. I will give you an answer. It's really that simple. But give me a break with the running away thing. I'm not scared to answer any questions. I think I explaine myself more fully and defend my position better than most people here. And despite the constant abuse, my posts being hidden, and the increasing difficulty of reading nested replies, I stuck with it for several hours yesterday. Give me a break with the running away thing, dude.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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It's easy to claim that I'm running away from questions. But it's much harder to ask me questions I won't answer. Prove to everybody that I'm running away. What are the specific questions I won't answer? Be specific.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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OK, since you haven't provided links to the questions above, I'm just going to have to go from what you've said here. If you want something more specific, you need to ask questions are more specific.
1, Childish selfishness: I assume you think that the "I made it; it's mine" thing is childish and selfish. Is that it? it's hard to tell since you're not being specific. That Lockean notion of ownership from labor is literally the basis of most property systems around the world. Are you seriously trying to brush off centuries of property law with a couple negative adjectives? I can't tell if you're just not aware of the law and its history. it seems to be the case. Have you studied this stuff at all? Are you denying that Lockean notions are not a part of the property system?
2. Nonrivalrousness: I happen to the think the nonrivalrousness thing is not a big deal. You disagree. Again, centuries of law are on my side. Patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, publicity rights, privacy rights, etc. Almost every country around the world on multiple dimensions affords property rights to nonrivalrous things. It's the excludability that matters, right? You seem to think I'm crazy for thinking this, but again I have to wonder if you've just never studied property law. Have you?
3. Debate tactics: I'm happy to address whatever your question is here, but I can't figure out what it is. What are you getting at? Be specific. Thanks.
Anyway, I'll check back in tonight. I await your detailed questions.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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Good. You're here. You are claiming that I'm running away from questions. Back up that claim. Ask me the specific questions you think I'm running away from, and I will answer them directly and honestly. It should be easy. Copy and paste if you want. No more generalizations. Be specific. What are the exact questions that I'm running away from?
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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I've been waiting for an hour. Where did you go? I want to answer each and every question that you think I'm avoiding. I am heading out soon, but I will check in this evening. Post that list! I want to dive into each and every question until you are satisfied.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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I've been waiting for an hour. Where did you go? I want to answer each and every question that you think I'm avoiding. I am heading out soon, but I will check in this evening. Post that list! I want to dive into each and every question until you are satisfied.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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Attacking my integrity and credibility? Super angry? Thinks anyone who disagrees with him is dishonest? You sound just like someone I know. Hmm...
Just to prove that I'm not running away, I will take time out of my busy day and devote it you. You're that important. Ask me anything, and I will respond swiftly, honestly, and directly. I'm happy to do it. Fire away, friend. I don't have time for the pile-on. But I will answer your questions, and only your questions. Shoot! Give me your best. Show everyone how I'm running away. I can't wait.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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Just remember these threads: they will be handy links next time he accuses others of refusing to engage.
Refused to engage? LOL! I sat here for hours yesterday and engaged several people at once directly and honestly. I'm working today. I wish I had time to continue the lengthy discussions we've had already, but I need to make up for the time I spent here yesterday as it is.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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Please link to and quote where I was "critical of others" because I "perceived that they are doing" what I myself "admittedly" do. I'm happy to address your criticism, but your basis has not been established yet.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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Wow. The insults are strong with you. If you'd like to discuss natural law more with me, stop with the insults. I love natural law. I'm happy to discuss it with anyone. Well, anyone except serial abusers as you're being now. Seriously. Drop the 'tude, dude. Make an argument without insulting me, and I'll gladly respond.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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I gotcha now. Yes, I think everyone instills their subjective beliefs into what they think is right and wrong. There's no such thing as total objectivity.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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You're the one quoting Wikipedia. Have you read Beckett, Wheaton, or their progenies? I have. And I've read lots of commentary discussing them. It's difficult to discuss this with you if you're insulting me the whole time and you haven't even read the opinions. Sorry, but that's the truth.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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I have thought it through. I simply disagree that the nonrivalrous thing changes the calculus much. The value isn’t in how easy it is copy. The value is in the author’s time, energy, money, skill, etc. that went into creating the thing. It’s also in that author as a person, for his or her own sake.
"Ownership" is a concept that relies entirely on rivalrousness.
That’s simply untrue. Intangible property is owned. Ownership is the legal relations between a person and the public vis-à-vis a given thing. Whether that thing is corporeal or incorporeal, rivalrous or nonrivalrous, it’s still a thing that can be owned.
My moral right to deprive you of use of my property exists because the only other option is you depriving me of my use of my property. It's a zero-sum game. Not so with creative works. There is no way that you using, publishing, sharing, altering or performing my works can limit my ability to use, publish, share, alter or perform my works, and vice versa. There is no rivalry, and thus no need for either of us to be deprived of use of the work.
You’re deprived of my work because it’s mine. I created it. You didn't. My labor created it. I have the moral claim to it because I expended time, energy, money, skill, etc. into creating it and you didn’t. If I spend a year writing a book, you have no moral claim to benefit from my labors. You didn’t earn it.
And I would argue that to demand deprivation, to demand control and limitation of people's freedom, where none is necessary or natural and where this is no rivalry or scarcity, is fundamentally immoral.
It’s completely natural. It comes from the natural law. What’s unnatural is reaping where you have not sown. I get that you disagree with me, but I don’t think you’re dishonest. I hope you can afford me the same courtesy. I simply don’t think you have any moral claim to download a work that is for sale (or otherwise) that you didn’t create. The fact that it’s easy for you to do does not address the moral issue. It’s easy to do lots of things that are not morally right.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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"Property in literary productions, before publication"
Once published there is no natural right limiting its distribution.
"I can find many applying it. I provided a cite to one case."
As usual even your own citation doesn't really support your claim as you say. Just like you twist the constitution you twist everything you quote.
"What have you cited?"
The constitution for one.
Here is another citation
"The "natural right" aspect of the doctrine was repudiated by the courts in the United Kingdom (Donaldson v. Beckett, 1774) and the United States (Wheaton v. Peters, 1834). In both countries, the courts found that copyright is a limited right created by the legislature under statutes and subject to the conditions and terms the legislature sees fit to impose."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law_copyright
The overwhelming majority of texts disagree with you and even the texts that IP extremists here quote are often twisted to mean something they don't (how badly you twist the constitution should bring into suspect anything you say)
You're all over the place. I don't know where to start. The meaning of the Copyright Clause? The holding of Donaldson v. Beckett? The holding of Wheaton v. Peters? My understanding runs far deeper than the Wikipedia article. I'm having trouble seeing how the game is worth the candle with you. The insults aren't helping.
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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Still waiting for you to stop dodging the question, stop making increasingly pretentious appeals to authority (seriously dude, you sound like a hipster-philosopher humanities student who has never had an original thought in his life) and give us some honest answers.
it's quite obvious what you're doing. I clearly am more forthcoming than Mike with my beliefs, and you know it. You're asking me to explain how I determine right from wrong. That's a great question. It's a philosophical issue that I'm not qualified to answer. I can only tell what I believe, explicitly, and tell you the philosophy that i ground it in. You want me to defend all of morality on some deeper level. I can't do it. I'm not a philosopher. The best I can do is tell you that I have a moral compass. I think everyone does. How that moral compass works, I honestly don't know. Can you tell me anything that you believe to be right, and then explain to me in the level of detail that you want from me? Maybe you understand this better than me. I'd love to know how it works if you do. I am being as honest with you as I can. The "thing" is the work, in the copyright sense. I don't understand what you want me to say in addition to that. It's not a physical thing--except insofar as it's fixated initially. But the work itself is incorporeal. As is all intangible property. What don't you understand?
On the post: All Of These Works Should Be In The Public Domain, But Aren't
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Good grief wit the insults. I just feel sorry for you at this point. When did I "complain about others injecting [my] perception of their subjective beliefs"? I'm not sure I even understand what that means. Who is injecting my perceptions into their beliefs?
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