Wow--- You head off to work and look what happens when you're busy doing other stuff...> I sure missed a day of it here today. It's going to take me several days to read the cases and digest the issues here.
@ RD and AJ: Thanks for starting this heated discussion that we've all learned from. Now perhaps the name-calling will tone down -- but probably not much longer than tomorrow morning when 'Anonymous' starts in at again.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Who would have thought being able to talk to anyone anytime would cause this.
"It isn't an agenda."
You are posting anonymously, and I don't know you, so perhaps you don't have an agenda, but there sure as hell is an governmental IP agenda being pursued right now by the entertainment industry. This is first and foremost with respect to laws within the United States, and secondarily to spread that body of law throughout the world using trade agreements.
The current round of activity:
-- COICA
-- ACTA
-- TPP
Further, all you have to do is read the boasts of individuals posting on this site about coming changes in law to allow monitoring and control of internet activity. Some of these claims made right here within the past few days.
If you want to hear congressional staff members discuss the IP issues which are being considered in Washington during this legislative session. It is a revealing conversation (a video recording done about 3 weeks ago) focused largely on how to tighten IP laws further. You will note that 4 out of the 5 panelists are from the state of California. It's a simple reflection of the entertainment industry lobby from that state. So you say there is "no agenda". Does the industry have lobbyists? Have you ever met a lobbyist without an agenda?. Lest you think that I don't know how legislative agendas are pursued, let me just say that, although I am not a professional lobbyist, I have flown to DC, and stood in the offices of my state's elected delegation to both the House and Senate and spoken with them myself. I know first hand that lobbying works.
"being exactly right to avoid problems" and less and less time on actually getting the job done
Sorry. This argument is worthless. Lawmakers need to get it right, and they had better get it right the first time, since the US has a terrible record at all levels of government with respect to evaluating and fixing laws that subsequently are found to have unintended and unfortunate consequences. ---> Bad law is worse than no law at all.
Re: Re: Who would have thought being able to talk to anyone anytime would cause this.
"Actually, what you are seeing is the breakdown of structured society, where people think they have the right (and some would suggest) obligation to stick their noses into everything.
Rather than working to get the right people running the show, they elect idiots through incredibly partisan politics, and then nit-pick at the work of their underlings.
Where this is heading is paralysis, where nobody in power dares to take a decision for fear of offending some idiot with a keyboard and a free wordpress account."
God forbid that a citizen should oppose or disagree with the "people running the show". You think that expressing opinion will lead to paralysis. Why don't you just come right out and say that you want an authoritarian state. People are much more likely to 'behave' and do what their told without annoying criticism in an authoritarian state.
The comment you just made is exactly why I oppose the IP maximalist agenda. At the end of the day, it sees nothing, including constitutional principle, that should stand in the way of profit. I am a business person myself and I am not opposed to profit - yours or mine. I am opposed to trying to use the law in ways which undermine our country's freedom.
And for the record, while you or some of your other AC colleagues here seem to think that TD is populated by pirate kiddies, for me this is not a piracy issue. I'm not much into music. I don't have an MP player and I rarely watch movies at home. In other words, I'm not a downloader looking for cover.
I am here because I think your agenda is wrong for our country. If that is what you mean by "stick their nose into everything", then Guilty As Charged.
"He still thinks the administration will try to bring a lawsuit, but he expects that it will eventually fail in the courts."
Hmm. Will the administration go ahead with a likely unsuccessful prosecution just to try to create cover in 2012 from "soft on terror" accusations pouring out from Limbaugh and Co.?
AJ - I can't understand how you don't see the danger of the idea that the government can confiscate property without proving that a crime was committed.
If it is not necessary to prove a crime, then isn't it possible, just possible AJ, that this could be abused? I get that you want to support the rights of artists, authors, etc. but the arguments you bring here could lead one to conclude that you believe such support should be delivered through ANY means or price, and at ANY risk?
You you want the law to be respected. Please explain how this sort of action encourages citizens to trust or respect their government. If the government loses the trust and respect of the public, then how do you think that the rule of law will be respected.
If you accept that "perhaps" it shouldn't "work that way", then why do you work so hard argue against those who are incensed at the ongoing aggrandizement of government power.
Regardless of what you might think, for most of us, the end concern isn't whether the website operators are guilty or not. If a court of law finds them guilty, so be it. The main concern is-- If a government agency can do this to them at this time -- what will be NEXT?
Stop allowing your enthusiasm for IP to cause you to make excuses for steps which lead toward authoritarianism. That's not what our country's founding principles were.
Here's another one to lower the cost and likelihood of wasteful lawsuits, but which likely won't see the light of day in the US.
-- The Loser pays everything.
If Mr. Arbesman doesn't like this, then he should google "elevator hack", so he can force his way to whatever floor he wants without stopping to let these guys on in the first place. (psst -- it really does work)
You obviously don't know anything about Wikipedia. It's very unlikely that anyone from TD removed your opinion from Mike Masnik's page. Unlike this place, you can't just say whatever you want on Wikipedia, because if it looks like you used unreferenced material, somebody will be around in about 15 minutes to clean out your trash.
Every single bit of Wikipedia is supposed to be referenced from externally verifiable published material. You can't put in things you think are true. You can't put in the results of your own unpublished research, even if it is true. You can't put in opinions or personal attacks against living persons -- even if you really, really hate them, and even if they really, really are bad guys.
And no, a link to a pseudonymous comment in a blog does not constitute a reputable source.
"Wyden just needs to STFU already ... Wyden needs to not be blinded by his far left ideology ..."
Wyden's letter calls attention to the fact that there is reasonable doubt that these seizures are legal. Insisting that the government must be subject to the rule of law is not a far-left ideology. Even the financially biased tripe from Terry Hart can't support that argument.
Apparently all things that include the word free are now highly suspect -- including "freedom"
"61 year old politician; no way he came up with all that on his own."
Are you the same incompetent, (unable to even do simple arithmetic on a data table) who was in here last month claiming that the "vast majority of TD readers" are "under 30"... with "generally low incomes".
As if no one over 30 gives a shit about highly dubious assaults on our constitutional foundations under the guise of protecting IP.
Guess again chump. You've sorely misjudged a large segment of us here.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: average_joe on Feb 3rd, 2011 @ 10:49am
Regardless of what you believe their "duty" is, It is extremely unlikely that the letter will go unanswered. Years ago, I was a government employee, and I know exactly the sort of organizational attention a letter from a member of the House, let alone a Senator, can generate.
AJ, you can't possibly be so naive to think that members of the executive branch don't know who ultimately is responsible for their budget?
Members of Congress are treated with the greatest of respect (publicly, of course). A better question would be -- Will the Senator get the kinds of answers he wants? That is much more doubtful.
Pleasant sounding evasion is the most likely response.
"Your goals just happen to be coextensive with the pirates"
AJ, You hammer Mike repeatedly as if piracy is the main theme of TD. Do you really believe that what Mike Masnick is all about is supporting pirates? Your use of the word "coextensive" implies that you do.
I can't personally speak for Mike, but these are the themes which I see as dominant here (in no particular order).
1) Government can't be trusted to act in the general interest of the country because of the pervasive relationship between the need to get re-elected and the influence of special interests. --> Scrutiny and transparency are needed to keep everyone honest.
2) Individuals, organizations, and especially government forever seek to accumulate power. Unchecked power will be abused, regardless of original intentions.
3) Businesses seek to avoid competition by any means possible, ethical or otherwise. Monopoly is like an all-candy diet. --Taste's good. --Not good for anybody.
4) New technology brings new competition and hence need for new business strategies. Some businesses have obviously chosen to try to use the legal system to limit the need for change rather than looking for new opportunities.
Why should we enable folks who would rather remain "fat, dumb, and happy", rather than innovate?
5) Despite energetic public promotion of the vast IP apparatus, scholarly economic research don't support the idea that IP == innovation, or that it is essential for innovation.
--> Perhaps we hear a lot about the piracy wars on TD because piracy touches all of these themes.
On the post: Judge Bans Handing (Factual) Pamphlets To Jurors; Raising First Amendment Issues
It's going to take me several days to read the cases and digest the issues here.
@ RD and AJ: Thanks for starting this heated discussion that we've all learned from.
Now perhaps the name-calling will tone down -- but probably not much longer than tomorrow morning when 'Anonymous' starts in at again.
On the post: David Guetta: The Way To Beat 'Piracy' Is To Give Your Music Away Free
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
On the post: Gabriel Tane's Favorites Of The Week: Censorship At Home And Abroad
On the post: Gabriel Tane's Favorites Of The Week: Censorship At Home And Abroad
Re: Re: Re: Re: Who would have thought being able to talk to anyone anytime would cause this.
The current round of activity:
-- COICA
-- ACTA
-- TPP
Further, all you have to do is read the boasts of individuals posting on this site about coming changes in law to allow monitoring and control of internet activity. Some of these claims made right here within the past few days.
If you want to hear congressional staff members discuss the IP issues which are being considered in Washington during this legislative session. It is a revealing conversation (a video recording done about 3 weeks ago) focused largely on how to tighten IP laws further. You will note that 4 out of the 5 panelists are from the state of California. It's a simple reflection of the entertainment industry lobby from that state.
So you say there is "no agenda". Does the industry have lobbyists? Have you ever met a lobbyist without an agenda?.
Lest you think that I don't know how legislative agendas are pursued, let me just say that, although I am not a professional lobbyist, I have flown to DC, and stood in the offices of my state's elected delegation to both the House and Senate and spoken with them myself. I know first hand that lobbying works. Sorry. This argument is worthless.
Lawmakers need to get it right, and they had better get it right the first time, since the US has a terrible record at all levels of government with respect to evaluating and fixing laws that subsequently are found to have unintended and unfortunate consequences.
---> Bad law is worse than no law at all.
On the post: Gabriel Tane's Favorites Of The Week: Censorship At Home And Abroad
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who would have thought being able to talk to anyone anytime would cause this.
... sounds that way???
It is that way.
On the post: Gabriel Tane's Favorites Of The Week: Censorship At Home And Abroad
Re: Re: Who would have thought being able to talk to anyone anytime would cause this.
The comment you just made is exactly why I oppose the IP maximalist agenda. At the end of the day, it sees nothing, including constitutional principle, that should stand in the way of profit. I am a business person myself and I am not opposed to profit - yours or mine. I am opposed to trying to use the law in ways which undermine our country's freedom.
And for the record, while you or some of your other AC colleagues here seem to think that TD is populated by pirate kiddies, for me this is not a piracy issue. I'm not much into music. I don't have an MP player and I rarely watch movies at home.
In other words, I'm not a downloader looking for cover.
I am here because I think your agenda is wrong for our country. If that is what you mean by "stick their nose into everything", then Guilty As Charged.
On the post: NY Times Editor Says He's 'Alarmed' By The Idea That The US Might Try To Prosecute Wikileaks
On the post: NY Times Editor Says He's 'Alarmed' By The Idea That The US Might Try To Prosecute Wikileaks
Re: Re: Re: Typo
On the post: Full Affidavit On Latest Seizures Again Suggests Homeland Security Is Twisting The Law
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If it is not necessary to prove a crime, then isn't it possible, just possible AJ, that this could be abused? I get that you want to support the rights of artists, authors, etc. but the arguments you bring here could lead one to conclude that you believe such support should be delivered through ANY means or price, and at ANY risk?
You you want the law to be respected. Please explain how this sort of action encourages citizens to trust or respect their government. If the government loses the trust and respect of the public, then how do you think that the rule of law will be respected.
If you accept that "perhaps" it shouldn't "work that way", then why do you work so hard argue against those who are incensed at the ongoing aggrandizement of government power.
Regardless of what you might think, for most of us, the end concern isn't whether the website operators are guilty or not. If a court of law finds them guilty, so be it. The main concern is-- If a government agency can do this to them at this time -- what will be NEXT?
Stop allowing your enthusiasm for IP to cause you to make excuses for steps which lead toward authoritarianism.
That's not what our country's founding principles were.
On the post: And Now Europe Feels The Need To Catch Up To China And The US In The Self-Destructive Patent Race
Re: One thing assured
On the post: And Now Europe Feels The Need To Catch Up To China And The US In The Self-Destructive Patent Race
Re: Perfectly Simple Fix
--Won't ever happen.
Here's another one to lower the cost and likelihood of wasteful lawsuits, but which likely won't see the light of day in the US.
-- The Loser pays everything.
On the post: Should Elevators Shame Us Into Taking The Stairs?
On the post: You Would Think Sony Knew Better Than To Install A Rootkit In The PS3 [Updated]
Re: Re:
For a bit older example, Try the Spanish American War.
On the post: You Would Think Sony Knew Better Than To Install A Rootkit In The PS3 [Updated]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Not exactly a "rootkit"
Every single bit of Wikipedia is supposed to be referenced from externally verifiable published material.
You can't put in things you think are true.
You can't put in the results of your own unpublished research, even if it is true.
You can't put in opinions or personal attacks against living persons -- even if you really, really hate them, and even if they really, really are bad guys.
And no, a link to a pseudonymous comment in a blog does not constitute a reputable source.
On the post: Senator Wyden Asks WTF Is Up With Homeland Security Domain Seizures
Re: Ideology Run Amuck
Insisting that the government must be subject to the rule of law is not a far-left ideology.
Even the financially biased tripe from Terry Hart can't support that argument.
On the post: Senator Wyden Asks WTF Is Up With Homeland Security Domain Seizures
Re:
Are you the same incompetent, (unable to even do simple arithmetic on a data table) who was in here last month claiming that the "vast majority of TD readers" are "under 30"... with "generally low incomes".
As if no one over 30 gives a shit about highly dubious assaults on our constitutional foundations under the guise of protecting IP.
Guess again chump. You've sorely misjudged a large segment of us here.
On the post: Senator Wyden Asks WTF Is Up With Homeland Security Domain Seizures
Re: Re: Re:
See my other comment above.
On the post: Senator Wyden Asks WTF Is Up With Homeland Security Domain Seizures
Re: Re: Re: Re: Response to: average_joe on Feb 3rd, 2011 @ 10:49am
AJ, you can't possibly be so naive to think that members of the executive branch don't know who ultimately is responsible for their budget?
Members of Congress are treated with the greatest of respect (publicly, of course).
A better question would be -- Will the Senator get the kinds of answers he wants?
That is much more doubtful.
Pleasant sounding evasion is the most likely response.
On the post: How Would US Politicians Respond If Spain Seized Domains Of American Companies?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I can't personally speak for Mike, but these are the themes which I see as dominant here (in no particular order).
1) Government can't be trusted to act in the general interest of the country because of the pervasive relationship between the need to get re-elected and the influence of special interests. --> Scrutiny and transparency are needed to keep everyone honest.
2) Individuals, organizations, and especially government forever seek to accumulate power. Unchecked power will be abused, regardless of original intentions.
3) Businesses seek to avoid competition by any means possible, ethical or otherwise. Monopoly is like an all-candy diet. --Taste's good. --Not good for anybody.
4) New technology brings new competition and hence need for new business strategies. Some businesses have obviously chosen to try to use the legal system to limit the need for change rather than looking for new opportunities.
Why should we enable folks who would rather remain "fat, dumb, and happy", rather than innovate?
5) Despite energetic public promotion of the vast IP apparatus, scholarly economic research don't support the idea that IP == innovation, or that it is essential for innovation.
--> Perhaps we hear a lot about the piracy wars on TD because piracy touches all of these themes.
On the post: How Would US Politicians Respond If Spain Seized Domains Of American Companies?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Surely you must know by now that Wikipedia is not a blog?
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