Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is cl
Calling something a straw man doesn't make it so. I have provided a listing of what I believe defines the far left. My definition, by definition, can't be a straw man (or a series of straw men). You can choose to argue that my definition is fictitious, or that folks that self identify as being on the left don't exhibit those traits if you want. So far though you haven't. I have provided concrete examples (some with links) which you have yet to refute. You appear unable to argue coherently and so are reduced to arguing (somewhat hypocritically) against straw men of your own creation and hurling ad hominum attacks against my person.
Let's review shall we.
I started my thread with the observation that those that I consider to be on the far left are closer to those on the far right (especially in their tactics) than they would like to believe.
This was followed by a request for my definition of the far right, which I provided.
Then there was a bunch of attacks on my person, and refuting of arguments that I hadn't made.
I followed this up with examples to back up my points.
There was more attacks, whataboutism, and deflection. With just a little bit of moving the goal posts in trying to argue dictionary or European definitions of the political right vs left.
Finally you succeed in demonstrating my point that those that don't adhere to a certain orthodoxy is in my case an alt-right troll.
Congratulations for making my point. At no point in my posts or responses have I typed anything that could have been remotely considered trollish. Nor have I stated anywhere that I agreed with the alt-right or what they stand for. I have simply pointed out that the tactics of antifa bear more than a passing resemblance those of the proud boys. That those who self identify as being on the left and that believe non-whites can't be racists are wrong, and when provided with a concrete example can't admit that they were wrong, but instead lash out and deflect. I could go on with my various other points, but I have already done so and you have shown that would be pointless. You don't show any indication of being willing to discuss honorably or even honestly. You are clinging to your preconceived notions and would rather argue dishonestly and resort to name calling than accept that things aren't exactly as you believe. That they might be a little more nuanced. That those with whom you self identify might not be going about things in the best of ways.
Agreed, there are an entire spectrum of opinions and views and many (most) people are of the buffet variety, choosing a little from here and a little from there.
Since we are currently discussing what I would consider a rather silly attempt at virtue signalling by a US governor regarding a US state, which would be illegal under even a casual reading of the US first amendment, I would think that the apropos definition would be that used in the US in US politics. Just saying....
Because group A is or was historically oppressed, discriminated against, abused, denied opportunity, that makes it O.K. to to the same to others, even those who had no part in those acts.
Straw man: I never said right wingers don't believe that they have the monopoly on defining discrimination, just that the left does as well.
Just because men have historically defined power/society (in your eyes ) then it's O.K. for men to be attacked by there wives and girlfriends (or even killed by the same) don't deserve justice. That college men who are falsely accused of rape and railroaded though the system is O.K. in your mind.
You claim that non-whites can be racists (good for you on admitting reality), but somehow that's O.K. because whites were racists longer.
You agree with reserving LGBTQ+ roles to LGBTQ+ actors, but say the reverse isnt' as heinous since historically people haven't complained, dodging the current uproar when a straight actor is cast for an LGBTQ+ part.
You make my point in regard to symbols by defending the symbol that you agree with running down the own you don't. Don't you think someone on the other side would make the same argument, just as compassionately? My point is both sides want the others banned and they want the government to do it.
I'll counter your Black Lives Matter example (the proverbial have you stopped beating your wife question) with a more straight forward one, or two.
Should a woman cast in a trans role be forced to apologize and turn down the part if she's straight?
Should a woman be ridiculed as a terf for wanting to have biological women only meetings?
Should a man be declared a racist for insisting that a black man who failed a physical fireman's test not be hired over a white man what has demonstrated that he can actually do the job?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far le
Well, as this is an article about a US law in a US state, it only makes sense to argue about US versions of left and right as political constructions in the US. You appear to be trying to redefine the argument (a.k.a. moving the goalposts) in an attempt to refute the points I have made.
I am a little left of center politically. (as in US politics). The list I had provided initially were examples of what I consider to be members of the extreme left. I even provided concrete examples. Something my detractors have yet to do. You have not pointed out where any of my examples are not factual reality.
Both the left and the right (here in the US) have called for the state to restrict speech (or perhaps you haven't been reading the many articles on this site regarding section 230 for starters). You can't honestly be claiming that the left, however you decide to define it, hasn't been trying to get the government to ban hate speech?
So, to use your own words:
Try again, but this time around you might want to start from factual reality rather than redefining the dictionary to fit your narrative.
Just calling a spade a spade. There are lots of people posting here bashing the right thinking that somehow the ideals of the left are sacrosanct. One doesn't have to agree with either viewpoint to point out that the tactics are getting similar and they are both showing an intolerance of opposing views.
I notice you didn't bother to argue with the substance of any of my points, resorting to an ad hominem atack implying that I am a right-winger.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is cl
My horizons are plenty broad, thank you very much. What pray tell do you think I am confused about?
Also, what's the gutter have to do with this conversation? People are people, they should be free to think and talk and believe as they see fit, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
There are plenty of misogynist men out there but there are plenty of misandristic women as well (see: Pauline Harmange, author of I Hate Men). Evangelical Christians that hate the LGBTQ+ community and members of the LGBTQ+ community that label feminists transphobes for wanting a biologically woman only space. White supremacists and black supremacists (see: New Black Panther Party which the Southern poverty Law Center has called; "...a virulently racist and antisemitic organization whose leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law enforcement officers.).
Being in the center (O.K. maybe a little left of center if I am being truly honest) I can stand back and look at what both ends of the political spectrum are doing and how they are both counterproductive. Occupants of either end are blinded to the realities of what they, and their group, are espousing.
Perhaps if you broadened your horizons beyond your preconceived notions, you might learn something, or not.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is cl
not at all. I am neither far left, nor far right, more of a centrist personally. Just providing an answer to the original question of what far left meant.
Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is closer to
you would like to think so. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case.
Let me help. The far left consists of that group of people who believe that:
only they get to define discrimination
women can not, by definition, be sexist
sex positive feminists, aren't feminists
misogyny is a thing, but misandry doesn't exist
non white people can not, by definition, be racist
LGBTQ+ acting roles should be limited to LGBTQ+ actors, but LGBTQ+ actors can play any role.
their symbols are appropriate for everyone and every occasion (see rainbow flag), but symbols that they don't like shouldn't be allowed for anyone
if you disagree with any of the above, or any other of their myriad positions, then you are labeled; racists, sexists, homophobe, transphobe, misogynist and should be shunned, evicted, denied speaking engagements or employment.
just goes to show you the far left is closer to the far right...
This just goes to show that the far left is closer to the far right than most people want to admit. Both sides believe in freedom of speech as long as it's their speech.
"Free speech is meant to protect unpopular speech. Popular speech, by definition, needs no protection."
Neal Boortz
Personally I think of Zoom like Verizon or AT&T or maybe Straight Talk Wireless would be a better analogy. Just as they aren't allowed to listen in, not that they don't anyway (talking to you AT&T/NSA), and then block your calls on what you want to talk about, Zoom shouldn't either.
Unless you are doing something illegal tiers 1 & 2 shouldn't be allowed to base their decisions on the content of your communications. At least not in this country.
Unfortunately this is what you get when the people that own the studios try to get into the streaming space. They can't seem to help themselves trying to use their control over content (and internet access for those that are also ISPs) to illegally to give themselves an unfair advantage in the marketplace.
If they wanted to strive for the loyalty and long term security of the sector, they would be licensing their content to as many services as possible. Let various streaming companies (Netflix, Hulu, Apple, etc) compete for the best service, interface, options and let the market decide. It wouldn't matter who won as they would get licensing revenue from everyone. As it is we have streaming providers like Netflix and Amazon forced into creating their own content, since the companies that produce third party content can't be counted on not to pull it and try setting up their own streaming service. Unfortunately most of these Netflix wannabees don't have the breadth of content to support their own service. Seriously, subscribe to CBS All Access just for Star Trek: Discovery?
In the end I fear it's just going to be another case of copyright holders overvaluing their content in regards to the platforms, and the user experience that delivers them. We'll see less and less mainstream content on legal streaming services, instead people will go outside the system to acquire it.
The successful companies will be those that provide the most value and the widest range of content under one roof.
1) there will be an election. (see congress and states), otherwise when his term ends, Nancy Pelosi would be president.
2) that would be the best result, but the republicans could also loose control of the senate effectively removing him from office for any of the vast number of impeachable offenses.
3) whether or not Trump chooses to leave is completely immaterial. On Jan. 20, 2021 at 12:00 EST Trump is not longer the president. He's just an old self centered trespasser in the white house. Anyone from the Marine contingent, to the secret service, to capitol police will forcibly remove him and his family from the building.
4) See #3 above. What you are proposing is a coup d'état. The active duty military won't even support his attempts to attack protesters (hence the need for the DHS, ICE, prison guard, and whom ever else they can round up to staff their cammo clad thugs), Do you really think that they would go against their oath to:
...support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;...
Any order from the president that goes against the constitution would be an illegal order placing the president firmly in the category enemies, domestic.
Our servicemen and women have infinitely more integrity the either the current president or those republican enablers in the senate.
As for #5, hopefully the US will have learned a very hard and painful lesson about electing narcissistic despot wannabees. One that isn't soon forgotten.
Not quite. This president was not acquitted of impeachment, he was in fact impeached. There's nothing he nor the republican party can do about it at this point.
What happened was that the senate, held a farcical trial, one in which many of the impartial republican senators had not only already made of their mind not to remove him from office, but bragged about it on national television, before it even started. They didn't even bother to call for witnesses.
So Trump is now and will always remain an impeached president. Unfortunately for the constitution and the country the republicans in the senate (with the notable exception of Mitt Romney) decided to break the oath they swore to be impartial jurors. The result; 150,000 (and counting) American dead, protests across the country, unidentified jack booted thugs trampling over our constitutional rights, and a slow slide into fascism and despotism.
Sure they do. That's why they have taken to removing all insignia from their uniforms and covering their faces with gas masks. If you don't know who they are, you can't hold them responsible for either disregarding a judge's order, or someone's constitutional rights. It's like the KKK all over again.
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is cl
Calling something a straw man doesn't make it so. I have provided a listing of what I believe defines the far left. My definition, by definition, can't be a straw man (or a series of straw men). You can choose to argue that my definition is fictitious, or that folks that self identify as being on the left don't exhibit those traits if you want. So far though you haven't. I have provided concrete examples (some with links) which you have yet to refute. You appear unable to argue coherently and so are reduced to arguing (somewhat hypocritically) against straw men of your own creation and hurling ad hominum attacks against my person.
Let's review shall we.
I started my thread with the observation that those that I consider to be on the far left are closer to those on the far right (especially in their tactics) than they would like to believe.
This was followed by a request for my definition of the far right, which I provided.
Then there was a bunch of attacks on my person, and refuting of arguments that I hadn't made.
I followed this up with examples to back up my points.
There was more attacks, whataboutism, and deflection. With just a little bit of moving the goal posts in trying to argue dictionary or European definitions of the political right vs left.
Finally you succeed in demonstrating my point that those that don't adhere to a certain orthodoxy is in my case an alt-right troll.
Congratulations for making my point. At no point in my posts or responses have I typed anything that could have been remotely considered trollish. Nor have I stated anywhere that I agreed with the alt-right or what they stand for. I have simply pointed out that the tactics of antifa bear more than a passing resemblance those of the proud boys. That those who self identify as being on the left and that believe non-whites can't be racists are wrong, and when provided with a concrete example can't admit that they were wrong, but instead lash out and deflect. I could go on with my various other points, but I have already done so and you have shown that would be pointless. You don't show any indication of being willing to discuss honorably or even honestly. You are clinging to your preconceived notions and would rather argue dishonestly and resort to name calling than accept that things aren't exactly as you believe. That they might be a little more nuanced. That those with whom you self identify might not be going about things in the best of ways.
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re: Re: Re:
It must be nice to redefine your opponents arguments and argue against those instead of the actual argument made.
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re: Re: Re:
Agreed, there are an entire spectrum of opinions and views and many (most) people are of the buffet variety, choosing a little from here and a little from there.
Since we are currently discussing what I would consider a rather silly attempt at virtue signalling by a US governor regarding a US state, which would be illegal under even a casual reading of the US first amendment, I would think that the apropos definition would be that used in the US in US politics. Just saying....
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re:
Sigh more whataboutism and deflection.
Because group A is or was historically oppressed, discriminated against, abused, denied opportunity, that makes it O.K. to to the same to others, even those who had no part in those acts.
Straw man: I never said right wingers don't believe that they have the monopoly on defining discrimination, just that the left does as well.
Just because men have historically defined power/society (in your eyes ) then it's O.K. for men to be attacked by there wives and girlfriends (or even killed by the same) don't deserve justice. That college men who are falsely accused of rape and railroaded though the system is O.K. in your mind.
You claim that non-whites can be racists (good for you on admitting reality), but somehow that's O.K. because whites were racists longer.
You agree with reserving LGBTQ+ roles to LGBTQ+ actors, but say the reverse isnt' as heinous since historically people haven't complained, dodging the current uproar when a straight actor is cast for an LGBTQ+ part.
You make my point in regard to symbols by defending the symbol that you agree with running down the own you don't. Don't you think someone on the other side would make the same argument, just as compassionately? My point is both sides want the others banned and they want the government to do it.
I'll counter your Black Lives Matter example (the proverbial have you stopped beating your wife question) with a more straight forward one, or two.
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far le
Well, as this is an article about a US law in a US state, it only makes sense to argue about US versions of left and right as political constructions in the US. You appear to be trying to redefine the argument (a.k.a. moving the goalposts) in an attempt to refute the points I have made.
I am a little left of center politically. (as in US politics). The list I had provided initially were examples of what I consider to be members of the extreme left. I even provided concrete examples. Something my detractors have yet to do. You have not pointed out where any of my examples are not factual reality.
Both the left and the right (here in the US) have called for the state to restrict speech (or perhaps you haven't been reading the many articles on this site regarding section 230 for starters). You can't honestly be claiming that the left, however you decide to define it, hasn't been trying to get the government to ban hate speech?
So, to use your own words:
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re:
Just calling a spade a spade. There are lots of people posting here bashing the right thinking that somehow the ideals of the left are sacrosanct. One doesn't have to agree with either viewpoint to point out that the tactics are getting similar and they are both showing an intolerance of opposing views.
I notice you didn't bother to argue with the substance of any of my points, resorting to an ad hominem atack implying that I am a right-winger.
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is cl
My horizons are plenty broad, thank you very much. What pray tell do you think I am confused about?
Also, what's the gutter have to do with this conversation? People are people, they should be free to think and talk and believe as they see fit, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.
There are plenty of misogynist men out there but there are plenty of misandristic women as well (see: Pauline Harmange, author of I Hate Men). Evangelical Christians that hate the LGBTQ+ community and members of the LGBTQ+ community that label feminists transphobes for wanting a biologically woman only space. White supremacists and black supremacists (see: New Black Panther Party which the Southern poverty Law Center has called; "...a virulently racist and antisemitic organization whose leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law enforcement officers.).
Being in the center (O.K. maybe a little left of center if I am being truly honest) I can stand back and look at what both ends of the political spectrum are doing and how they are both counterproductive. Occupants of either end are blinded to the realities of what they, and their group, are espousing.
Perhaps if you broadened your horizons beyond your preconceived notions, you might learn something, or not.
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is cl
if only that were true.......
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is cl
not at all. I am neither far left, nor far right, more of a centrist personally. Just providing an answer to the original question of what far left meant.
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re:
Then you might want to go to Wikipedia instead, just saying....
;)
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
Re: Re: Re: Re: just goes to show you the far left is closer to
you would like to think so. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case.
Let me help. The far left consists of that group of people who believe that:
Does that clear things up a bit for you?
On the post: NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo Signs Law Banning Sale Of Confederate Flags That Will Absolutely Get Nullified
just goes to show you the far left is closer to the far right...
This just goes to show that the far left is closer to the far right than most people want to admit. Both sides believe in freedom of speech as long as it's their speech.
On the post: Zoom Shuts Down NYU Event To Discuss Whether Zoom Should Be Shutting Down Events Based On Content
next it will be Verizon or AT&T
Personally I think of Zoom like Verizon or AT&T or maybe Straight Talk Wireless would be a better analogy. Just as they aren't allowed to listen in, not that they don't anyway (talking to you AT&T/NSA), and then block your calls on what you want to talk about, Zoom shouldn't either.
There's a fundamental difference between:
Unless you are doing something illegal tiers 1 & 2 shouldn't be allowed to base their decisions on the content of your communications. At least not in this country.
On the post: 16K COVID-19 Cases Go Missing In UK Due To Government's Use Of Excel CSVs For Tracking
nuclear facepalm
Wow just doesn't seem appropriate enough.
Priceless
If it was a matter of cost, someone should introduce them to LibreOffice. The standard .ods format can handle 1,048,576 (2^20) rows and it's free.
On the post: The Harry Potter Films Are Now Exclusive To Comcast, And The Streaming Sector Remains Oblivious To Piracy's Looming Resurgence
Short sighted monopolists, what do you expect?
Uggg... more short sighted monopolists.
Unfortunately this is what you get when the people that own the studios try to get into the streaming space. They can't seem to help themselves trying to use their control over content (and internet access for those that are also ISPs) to illegally to give themselves an unfair advantage in the marketplace.
If they wanted to strive for the loyalty and long term security of the sector, they would be licensing their content to as many services as possible. Let various streaming companies (Netflix, Hulu, Apple, etc) compete for the best service, interface, options and let the market decide. It wouldn't matter who won as they would get licensing revenue from everyone. As it is we have streaming providers like Netflix and Amazon forced into creating their own content, since the companies that produce third party content can't be counted on not to pull it and try setting up their own streaming service. Unfortunately most of these Netflix wannabees don't have the breadth of content to support their own service. Seriously, subscribe to CBS All Access just for Star Trek: Discovery?
In the end I fear it's just going to be another case of copyright holders overvaluing their content in regards to the platforms, and the user experience that delivers them. We'll see less and less mainstream content on legal streaming services, instead people will go outside the system to acquire it.
The successful companies will be those that provide the most value and the widest range of content under one roof.
On the post: Senators Graham And Blumenthal Can't Even 'Earn' The EARN IT Act: Looking To Sneak Vote Through Without Debate
Re: Re: [ Call your Senator]
The best thing you can do at the moment is to call your Senator.
They are counting on their constituents not even knowing about this bill, and if they do, not really caring.
(I do and I have)
On the post: The Latest Targets Of DHS Surveillance Are Journalists Who Published Leaked Documents
Re: Re: The Executive branch violating the law
I think you can be fairly certain that:
1) there will be an election. (see congress and states), otherwise when his term ends, Nancy Pelosi would be president.
2) that would be the best result, but the republicans could also loose control of the senate effectively removing him from office for any of the vast number of impeachable offenses.
3) whether or not Trump chooses to leave is completely immaterial. On Jan. 20, 2021 at 12:00 EST Trump is not longer the president. He's just an old self centered trespasser in the white house. Anyone from the Marine contingent, to the secret service, to capitol police will forcibly remove him and his family from the building.
4) See #3 above. What you are proposing is a coup d'état. The active duty military won't even support his attempts to attack protesters (hence the need for the DHS, ICE, prison guard, and whom ever else they can round up to staff their cammo clad thugs), Do you really think that they would go against their oath to:
Any order from the president that goes against the constitution would be an illegal order placing the president firmly in the category enemies, domestic.
Our servicemen and women have infinitely more integrity the either the current president or those republican enablers in the senate.
As for #5, hopefully the US will have learned a very hard and painful lesson about electing narcissistic despot wannabees. One that isn't soon forgotten.
On the post: The Latest Targets Of DHS Surveillance Are Journalists Who Published Leaked Documents
Re: The Executive branch violating the law
Not quite. This president was not acquitted of impeachment, he was in fact impeached. There's nothing he nor the republican party can do about it at this point.
What happened was that the senate, held a farcical trial, one in which many of the impartial republican senators had not only already made of their mind not to remove him from office, but bragged about it on national television, before it even started. They didn't even bother to call for witnesses.
So Trump is now and will always remain an impeached president. Unfortunately for the constitution and the country the republicans in the senate (with the notable exception of Mitt Romney) decided to break the oath they swore to be impartial jurors. The result; 150,000 (and counting) American dead, protests across the country, unidentified jack booted thugs trampling over our constitutional rights, and a slow slide into fascism and despotism.
On the post: Portland Journalists Ask For Sanctions As Federal Agents Continue To Assault Reporters And Legal Observers
Re:
Sure they do. That's why they have taken to removing all insignia from their uniforms and covering their faces with gas masks. If you don't know who they are, you can't hold them responsible for either disregarding a judge's order, or someone's constitutional rights. It's like the KKK all over again.
On the post: Portland Journalists Ask For Sanctions As Federal Agents Continue To Assault Reporters And Legal Observers
Re:
Perhaps because they enjoy the rush of power that comes from indiscriminately abusing people. Just a thought.
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