"This is NOT about trolling but instead the USA stating that they can do whatever the fuck they want to anyone because well.. FUCK YOU! but anyone else has to kowtow to their line of hypocritical bullshit unethical reasoning."
That is self-evidently not what the US does as a matter of foreign policy. You may not like all US actions, hell, I don't like all of them either, but claiming that our foreign policy is conducted without restraint is silly.
"To me this reads that there is a difference in the evilness of waterboarding depending on the purpose - and therefore that the ends can justify the means?"
If you think about it really hard for just a moment, you'll realize I'm arguing that the GENESIS justifies the means, not the end result.
And you already know this to be true. It's the reason we don't jail a housewife who shot her husband to keep him from killing their mutual child. It's the reason we allow for a self defense justification in murder trials. It's the reason why launching a war on Nazi Germany prior to that country attacking us wasn't considered an aggressive war without justification.
Come on now, guys, let's not all get silly. We all agree that torture is wrong, but let's not pretend like the stance of the United States and the stance of ISIS and the way we prosecute one another are equal, because they ain't even close...
"The end doesn't justify the means, so whether you are doing it under the belief that it will help protect your nation, or to strike terror in your enemies doesn't matter. If the action is the same it is just as good or evil no matter why you are doing it."
That isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the circumstances and goal of an action can justify that action. I would have thought that was self evidently true....
What's required is a firm stance: not only do we not torture under ANY condition, we also don't skirt the line of torture, or come close enough that a reasonable argument could even be made that we are torturing, ever.
"However, comparing it to a group who takes civilians and members of the media hostage, demands high ransoms, tortures them, and in the end kills them in a brutal method for public display is pretty much a big reach."
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree w/Whatever. The difference is in the purpose. Let's make this clear: waterboarding IS torture, should NEVER have been done, and was wrong. However, it must be true that those in the employ of the CIA and the drone strikes are not and did not commit brutality with the primary goal of dehumanizing and enemy and publicly attempting to strike fear in the them with their brutality.
Both are wrong, but there CAN be such a thing as different degrees of wrong and evil. The United States, much maligned and assumed to be able to shift the world with the flick of its finger, isn't even close to the level of evil that ISIS is.
What's interesting is whether or not the US will learn this lesson: when you torture, you forfeit the right to complain about those same torture techniques being used on our soldiers/citizens.
People, "Whatever" is just "Average Joe" continuing his tooling ways. That said, I do indeed love the "the problem is government is made of people" and the "people don't follow the law" dichotomy. Way to completely obviate your own argument, Joe....
Listen, idiot. I specifically put that line in to COMBAT people dismissing this simply because it was on Fox News. I did the opposite of what you're claiming.
Re: Re: Backups. We don't need no stinkin' backups.
There are a TON of good local/offsite D2D backup solutions. At my 8-5 job, we have used a couple of them to power a managed BDR service. We've switched them around a couple of times, so this isn't to pimp the Digerati Group service, but they've included the Barracuda Backup solution, Datto, and Veeam for virtualized environments. They all include onsite/offsite backups and can work with a message archiver for journaled Exchange accounts.
This stuff is waaaaaay more simple than people are led to believe. The idea of data residing primarily on a local client instead of a server and having the responsibility for backups foisted upon common users is laughable to the extreme....
"The user (with the help of a tech, usually) chooses what emails are moved from the server to the local file. The office systems are not usually backed up. If the second option was deployed by the user or tech staff and later on that office system’s hard drive crashed… well, then the data could be gone for good."
That's not typically how email backups work, in my experience. Usually, any competent organization is going to be doing some flavor of email archiving, in which a journaled Exchange account funnels copies of all email traffic to the archiving system, which is separate from the Exchange box/cluster. The user CANNOT control what is backed up by design. No system which allowed that would meet the many compliance standards the government and SGOs have set up for various industries.
As a device on the network, that message archiver is also backed up, along with the Exchange box/cluster. Backups of any legitimacy involve a local and at least one offsite location. This is harder with tape drives, which is why tape drives should go away and die forever, but there should always be at least 3-4 geographic points from where emails can reside. For all of those to disappear isn't believable.
"Or you could - for once - stay out of other people's business and try not to police the world. Because your country apparently doesn't have the knowledge and understanding of the situation, moral and ethical standing or authority to do so."
No thanks. I'd rather my country use its power to do some good in the world, particularly since we've certainly caused our share of harm. Isolationism ain't going to cut it, especially in this case. Inaction leading to an ISIS takeover of Iraq and Syria would equate to blood on our hands, at least in part because of the way we've meddled in the region before.
It's quite easy to say, "just stay out of the fight". Easy, and cowardly....
This isn't actually that hard. You stop trying to be a friend to all Iraqis and empower the real adults in the region, the Kurds. You supply them heavily with weapons and tactics advisers, and then you run joint military operations with them to carve back as much territory from ISIS/ISIL as possible. Either the Iraqi government becomes based on the Kurds secular system or the Kurds get their own state.
Their version of government, backed by American firepower, with hopefully some assistance from the UN, is the answer to the ISIS/ISIL riddle.
But not all of us that think armed conflict with ISIS/ISIL is inevitable are warmongers in the same sense. I don't relish the idea of war, but I do think we're going to have to go to battle with these people, first in words and eventually with bullets and bombs.
And, while I wish such violence weren't necessary, I'm eager for the day when ISIS/ISIL is extinguished like the plague they are....
On the post: Is It Torture Now? ISIS Apparently A Fan Of CIA's Waterboarding Techniques
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
That is self-evidently not what the US does as a matter of foreign policy. You may not like all US actions, hell, I don't like all of them either, but claiming that our foreign policy is conducted without restraint is silly.
On the post: Is It Torture Now? ISIS Apparently A Fan Of CIA's Waterboarding Techniques
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
On the post: Is It Torture Now? ISIS Apparently A Fan Of CIA's Waterboarding Techniques
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
If you think about it really hard for just a moment, you'll realize I'm arguing that the GENESIS justifies the means, not the end result.
And you already know this to be true. It's the reason we don't jail a housewife who shot her husband to keep him from killing their mutual child. It's the reason we allow for a self defense justification in murder trials. It's the reason why launching a war on Nazi Germany prior to that country attacking us wasn't considered an aggressive war without justification.
Come on now, guys, let's not all get silly. We all agree that torture is wrong, but let's not pretend like the stance of the United States and the stance of ISIS and the way we prosecute one another are equal, because they ain't even close...
On the post: Is It Torture Now? ISIS Apparently A Fan Of CIA's Waterboarding Techniques
Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
That isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the circumstances and goal of an action can justify that action. I would have thought that was self evidently true....
On the post: Is It Torture Now? ISIS Apparently A Fan Of CIA's Waterboarding Techniques
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
What's required is a firm stance: not only do we not torture under ANY condition, we also don't skirt the line of torture, or come close enough that a reasonable argument could even be made that we are torturing, ever.
On the post: Is It Torture Now? ISIS Apparently A Fan Of CIA's Waterboarding Techniques
Re: Re: Silence and deflection
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree w/Whatever. The difference is in the purpose. Let's make this clear: waterboarding IS torture, should NEVER have been done, and was wrong. However, it must be true that those in the employ of the CIA and the drone strikes are not and did not commit brutality with the primary goal of dehumanizing and enemy and publicly attempting to strike fear in the them with their brutality.
Both are wrong, but there CAN be such a thing as different degrees of wrong and evil. The United States, much maligned and assumed to be able to shift the world with the flick of its finger, isn't even close to the level of evil that ISIS is.
What's interesting is whether or not the US will learn this lesson: when you torture, you forfeit the right to complain about those same torture techniques being used on our soldiers/citizens.
On the post: Police Can't Find A Bunch Of The Military Weapons And Vehicles That The Pentagon Has Been Handing Out
Re: Re: I, too, hate it when I lose powerful weapons of war.
On the post: Health And Human Services Ex-Cybersecurity Director Convicted Of Kiddy Porn
Re: Re: Re: Guarding the chicken coop
On the post: Justice Dept. Official: We Could Get Lois Lerner's Emails From Backups, But It's Too Hard So Naaaaaah
Re: Re: Re: I totally don't believe in conspiracies, but here's proof of a conspiracy...
Either way, you're wrong, so feel free to go away....
On the post: Justice Dept. Official: We Could Get Lois Lerner's Emails From Backups, But It's Too Hard So Naaaaaah
Re: Love the disparaging remarks about Fox news
Don't forget breathe, now....
On the post: Justice Dept. Official: We Could Get Lois Lerner's Emails From Backups, But It's Too Hard So Naaaaaah
Re: Re: Backups. We don't need no stinkin' backups.
This stuff is waaaaaay more simple than people are led to believe. The idea of data residing primarily on a local client instead of a server and having the responsibility for backups foisted upon common users is laughable to the extreme....
On the post: Justice Dept. Official: We Could Get Lois Lerner's Emails From Backups, But It's Too Hard So Naaaaaah
Re: Mail server blues
That's not typically how email backups work, in my experience. Usually, any competent organization is going to be doing some flavor of email archiving, in which a journaled Exchange account funnels copies of all email traffic to the archiving system, which is separate from the Exchange box/cluster. The user CANNOT control what is backed up by design. No system which allowed that would meet the many compliance standards the government and SGOs have set up for various industries.
As a device on the network, that message archiver is also backed up, along with the Exchange box/cluster. Backups of any legitimacy involve a local and at least one offsite location. This is harder with tape drives, which is why tape drives should go away and die forever, but there should always be at least 3-4 geographic points from where emails can reside. For all of those to disappear isn't believable.
On the post: The James Foley Beheading Video And How Americans Conceptualize Their Enemies
Re: Re: Put your money where your mouth is.
On the post: The James Foley Beheading Video And How Americans Conceptualize Their Enemies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Big Stick
On the post: Shocking: Red Light Camera Company CEO And Chicago City Official Indicted On Corruption Charges
Re: Re: Re:
On the post: Shocking: Red Light Camera Company CEO And Chicago City Official Indicted On Corruption Charges
Re:
On the post: The James Foley Beheading Video And How Americans Conceptualize Their Enemies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
No thanks. I'd rather my country use its power to do some good in the world, particularly since we've certainly caused our share of harm. Isolationism ain't going to cut it, especially in this case. Inaction leading to an ISIS takeover of Iraq and Syria would equate to blood on our hands, at least in part because of the way we've meddled in the region before.
It's quite easy to say, "just stay out of the fight". Easy, and cowardly....
On the post: The James Foley Beheading Video And How Americans Conceptualize Their Enemies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Their version of government, backed by American firepower, with hopefully some assistance from the UN, is the answer to the ISIS/ISIL riddle.
On the post: The James Foley Beheading Video And How Americans Conceptualize Their Enemies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I wonder who things this is a good idea...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViUBNrFDx5g
On the post: The James Foley Beheading Video And How Americans Conceptualize Their Enemies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And, while I wish such violence weren't necessary, I'm eager for the day when ISIS/ISIL is extinguished like the plague they are....
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