"You repeatedly dismiss this demographic, even to the point of mocking me, but it's there. "
Yes it exists. I don't deny that. You, however ignore the point. Is that demographic significant? Not sure why you return to that point over and over other than to say it exists. Great. Show some data that proves relevance.
"Yes, I sent you a link that proves that the item you sarcastically dismissed as not being available does in fact exist. Problem?"
No problem, you proved my point perfectly, which you failed to address. People that can't find the physical good tend to look online and find it and then get it if they want it.
"The subject of the discussion was that Cudi thinks that the low shipping rate would have affected sales, and this still stands even though only 1/3 of the CDs sold in the first week and it charted highly."
I'm not sure if you are stating that CuDi's feelings still stand. If you are, then I agree. He is free to believe what he wants. If you are saying that the reality is that shipping rates that were lower than the artist expected, "significantly" affected sales , then you are definitely pulling that out of your ass. I'm asking you to show the relevance of your stance, not just that a small demographic exists. Any data provided would be appreciated.
Maybe the problem is in the language. For a lot of us, it's not a "phone", it's a mobile communications device or basically a laptop computer. Even some of the most basic mobile phones have more memory and computing ability than a desktop computer from the 90s.
The courts shouldn't be looking at a mobile phone as a pocket diary, unless that diary is 415 volumes and includes pictures, videos, movies, music, credit card numbers, legal documents, etc.
It would be nice if there was a mechanism like this in the US, although I would think they would need to set a higher bar for signatures, or else very small segments of the voting population would be likely to try to hijack the system.
Perhaps something like 50k signatures to get the idea recognized as worth being investigated further and then a second threshold of 500k signatures before actual legislation is drafted ( the whole process being transparent ), just to make sure that the legislation is acceptable to a large enough cross section of the population.
It would be interesting to see how such a system would integrate with partisan politics.
I'm not saying that vinyl is not making a bit of comeback, but that's definitely a niche market and you won't find the labels routinely shipping tens of thousands of vinyl copies.
"Point is that some people prefer digital and some prefer physical. If someone walked into a store and could not get a cd or whatever then that is a lost sale."
I agree 100% that some people prefer digital and some prefer physical, but where we differ is on the point of counting someone walking into a store and not being able to get a CD and walking out as a lost sale. It could be a lost sale, maybe, but again here I go with a baseless assumption.... I'm thinking, and this has no data backed basis, that just maybe a consumer that wants a product will go on the web and find it and either go to the store that has it or just order it online. Just throwing that out there.
In fact, PaulT argues that it does matter where the physicals are distributed, but when replying to my sarcasm about waiting for a vinyl copy, he sent me a link ( imagine that ), to where I could find a vinyl copy.
Let's look at that, in defense of the position that it DOES matter where the physicals are distributed, he sends a link. That is human nature, to use the tools at our disposal to meet our needs.
While I'm 100% sure that lack of physicals does cut down on impulse buys, does anyone have any data on the impact of impulse buys on the music market? I can't imagine that its statistically significant, but would be interested to see otherwise.
I guess I'm still confused, PaulT. What you consider an attack was merely an observation. Talking to a young audience on Twitter and apologizing for a lack of availability of his physical album seemed odd to me.
You have considered that an attack from the beginning. Stating over and over that such a simple observation is an attack is odd to me as well.
For some reason you seem to believe that saying baseless assumption empowers your own words. My admission of my "baseless assumption" was sarcasm. Using educated guesses about demographics and trends is hardly baseless.
You seem to be missing the point of the initial baseless assumption. Where the physicals were sold is pretty much irrelevant. The younger audience "trends" toward the digital market, which is why I found that tweet a bit odd.
You can try to explain the reality of the sales by looking for more granular info if you want or just accept the natural trend. Feel free to post some data of your own.
"...did certain areas of the country sell enough to make finding a copy a problem?"
Sorry but that was just funny. Im sure some record exec is asking the EXACT same question. I'm again imagining that group of consumers who just couldn't find a copy and just gave up in disgust. More lost sales who never once thought to buy it online because they just had to have the CD in hand.
That letter was just as AWESOME as the We the Webkids manifesto. I just had to laugh about all the Industry Insiders who will read it and be pissed off because a consumer would dare to tell them how to run their industry.
I can all ready hear the chorus of "..but..but.. stepping over dollars to pick up pennies isn't a business model."
Mr. Smith does an excellent job of explaining how to get his money and quite possibly my money and probably a lot of other consumers' money.
One thing I think he could have focused on is the massive back catalogs of movies and TV (especially TV). There is a ton of content that is just sitting in vaults, not being sold and not being aired. I'm thinking that counts as lost sales.
Hmmm. Ok I was pulling assumptions out of my ass. It was completely off base for me to assume that a young hip hop artist would have a young "digitally aware" fanbase that follows him on Twitter. It was off base for me to assume that just because digital sales are increasing over the sales of CDs, that such a trend would be mirrored in CuDi's sales. Completely out of my ass, though by out of my ass, I mean an educated guess based on available data.
The fact that digital sales of his album far out paced physical sales was just some bizarre coincidence that no one could have foreseen.
It appears that 45k of the 66k in sales were digital. So if PaulT still thinks that CuDi has a better feel for how his fans are getting their music and they prefer CDs, well the sales data says otherwise. So much for trends, eh?
While I agree with everyone who says that promotion is a huge factor in sales, I'm not sure that I can agree that the number of physicals released held back the overall sales.
Lastly, when I say that the labels seemed to be accurate in their forecast, I am assuming that physicals are what they think of when they think sales forecast. I was simply noting that the number of physicals was very close to the actual sales, which is a far cry from declaring labels as supreme authorities on marketing.
Ok, let me try this one more time. I said the label was in the ballpark because they shipped 55k and they sold 66k. Those are the numbers. I fully admit that I have no idea how the label forecasts digital sales. I can only assume that if they ship 55k in physicals then they are hoping for at least 30k in digital sales. That is a complete assumption based on current buying trends in the market.
"..how many people had to walk away empty-handed because their store either didn't receive any or were sold out?"
I had to re-read that a few times, then I had to stop laughing. I'm trying to picture these consumers who are so motivated that they go to the store to buy a CD and can't find what they want and then they just give up in disgust. The point being that it no longer matters if the CDs are not available, since the purchase can be made digitally. 'But.. but.. but.. I want a CD for whatever reason." Yeah I and was hoping for the vinyl release for my hi fi.
Don't be sorry for touching a nerve, Using the argument that, "You don't know the specifics...(e.g. the artist's fan base preferences, tech trends, physical vs digital sales, etc.)" doesn't carry much weight as it can be applied to your very own opinion.
You don't get to dismiss my assumption and then assert your own baseless assumption.
You do get to say you have a baseless assumption just like mine, as it's just how you feel about what is happening in the market.
"My comment was merely this - how many of Cudi's fans usually pick up the CD as opposed to just buying digitally?"
There is no easy answer to that one and I don't have a clue. I only followed the line of logic, that CuDi's music appeals to a younger demographic and that population is more likely to follow him on Twitter and FB and on the hip hop blogs and buy digitally. The industry trend, which is not an opinion, is that sales of CDs is in decline while digital sales are on the rise.
"On what are you basing your assumption that they are mostly using iTunes? Do you have more information on the makeup and preferences of his fanbase than Cudi himself?"
Substitute "digitally acquired" for iTunes and the point stands. No I don't have more information about the makeup and preference of his fanbase other than being a fan of his music and never once looking for it in a physical store. Yes it's an assumption and based on current tech trends. I'm not personally familiar with hordes of people lining up for the latest CD from the hottest artists.
I guess I would ask you, do you know of this phenomena? Are there now hordes of fans camping outside record stores or Wal-Marts in hopes of getting their hands on the latest music? Are iPods now fitted with a CD reader?
Ok you asked how I could say the labels were in the ballpark? I'm just going by the number of physicals vs the number of sales. I have no idea what the split is between physicals and digital, but I would guess that the number of digital sales outweighs the physical sales.
Personally I don't think the labels forecast digital sales. I think they are still focused on the physical sale and that is where they forecast. Should they just ship enough for a weeks worth? I don't know the answer to that. I can't say that I really understand how the labels think from a business standpoint.
For the purpose of this discussion, the only info given is that 55k in physicals were shipped and that the first weeks sales were 66k. So we know that at the very least 11k was digital sales.
"Ok so just a heads up, my weak ass label only shipped 55k physicals cuz they treated this like some indie side project tax right off."
They shipped 55k physicals and he sold 66k. I'm not sure how many of that 66k were physicals, but it seems like the label was actually in the ballpark on sales forecast. So even though Cary Sherman is a moron, it does seem that the labels still have some idea of how to forecast sales.
Kid CuDi apologizes for not being able to find the CD in stores as if most of his fan base isn't using iTunes. That's just a bit odd.
The only part of his rant that has any real substance is the bit about promotion. Since he is signed to a major label he does have a certain expectation of promotion since that's the function of the label. Then again, I don't remember a ton of hype over his other album.
Articles like this do serve to show just how confusing the music industry really is. You have a disgruntled artist who is doing well in spite of his perceptions about his label, and you have the label which can accurately forecast sales, but seems unsure about how to promote the artist. Then at the end you have the artist apologizing on Twitter for a lack of physical availability.
I'm a huge fan of Tesla, and I agree that the issue here is about the range of the car because it is a pure electric car. I'm not sure going legal against Top Gear was the smartest plan, but that was their choice. I completely agree that courts will not be in a hurry to help out anyone in the electric car business.
Basically electric cars are to the oil / automotive industry, the same as the internet is to the content / communications industry.
"Ambassador Kirk was in my view quite open and responsive to questions posed to him."
That single sentence almost burst a blood vessel in my brain. ARE YOU FUCKING NUTZ?!!!???!!!?? Did you listen to the clip at all or does the fact that he spoke at all, indicate openness and responsiveness in your mind?
Allow me to help you: When asked what would happened if Congress enacted laws that run contrary to ACTA, Kirk's response was that Congress would not be constrained in any way when passing laws that are in line with ACTA. Well DUH, we already know that. That WASN'T the question asked.
When asked about the process and transparency, Kirk's response is basically that we are doing things in secret the way they have always been done and see no need to change that because people are speaking out. He then goes on to say there is misinformation out there and we want people to know that TPP is not like SOPA/PIPA at all, but we can't tell you what it's about. This begs the question, how can we be informed about something that we can't be informed about?
Perhaps you should reflect for a moment on the fact that there are many "appointed" members of the Executive branch that are not elected nor representative of the public. Jan.18th showed the world that we may be a republic, but we will certainly not sit quietly and accept abuse from our representatives.
Re: Subversive nonsense... ( Totally missed the point )
"Think about any other industry (plumbers were mentioned) - how many would have succeeded if we applied the same thought to them? How many plumbers do you know who spend the first 1-3 years doing stuff for free and then, when they've "proven" themselves, start to charge for their services? "
And how many people that pay for a plumber to fix their toilet, continue to pay the plumber a monthly license for every flush? For the life of the plumber plus 70 years of payments to his heirs.
The entertainment industry obviously doesn't care about its consumer base. They treat all of their customers as criminals and expect to rehabilitate them through education.
Now the entertainment industry is waging war on new fronts. Attacking the tech sector in different places. Google, Facebook, and the ISPs are the newest enemies of the entertainment industry.
So let's take a look at the Big Content battle plan, Step 1. Criminalize and shit on consumer base. Step 2. Threaten, bully, and alienate the platforms that the consumer base uses to consume our content. Step 3. Wait for the money to come pouring in.
Instead of those 3 steps, I think the Entertainment Industry needs a good 12 step program.
You just have to shrug off anything that Cary Sherman says. It's obvious the guy is 1. paid to have a certain opinion from which he cannot deviate and 2. a bit clueless about the internet and how and why it works the way it does.
Guys like him will not debate with anyone who has data to back up their words. He did an op-ed in the NYT in response to the online SOPA/PIPA protest. Think about that. He used an analog response to a digital threat. That is all he knows how to do and that is probably a good thing.
Maybe the trolls just don't know how to use the web
If I were a troll on this blog, it just seems to make sense that for every one of these articles that details how the industry is not looking out for the creators, the trolls would simply post a story about the content creators talking about how wonderful SOPA and copyright are.
Why don't those stories ever make headlines? Are there any ?
"You know the idea Mike, you studied it in your first year classes. When there isn't enough money for all of the players in a market to be profitable, some of them will go out of business or get merged into larger, profitable entities."
You have got to be fucking kidding? There are billions of dollars in the music industry and the industry is growing, not shrinking. Profitable is completely subjective. If you take 7 figure salaries of execs and turn them into low 6 figure salaries, you might find there is a lot more profit than anyone imagined.
What happened to the Big Six is more like a "bubble effect". When you artificially inflate the market, eventually the bubble pops.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused...
Yes it exists. I don't deny that. You, however ignore the point. Is that demographic significant? Not sure why you return to that point over and over other than to say it exists. Great. Show some data that proves relevance.
"Yes, I sent you a link that proves that the item you sarcastically dismissed as not being available does in fact exist. Problem?"
No problem, you proved my point perfectly, which you failed to address. People that can't find the physical good tend to look online and find it and then get it if they want it.
"The subject of the discussion was that Cudi thinks that the low shipping rate would have affected sales, and this still stands even though only 1/3 of the CDs sold in the first week and it charted highly."
I'm not sure if you are stating that CuDi's feelings still stand. If you are, then I agree. He is free to believe what he wants. If you are saying that the reality is that shipping rates that were lower than the artist expected, "significantly" affected sales , then you are definitely pulling that out of your ass. I'm asking you to show the relevance of your stance, not just that a small demographic exists. Any data provided would be appreciated.
On the post: Court Confirms Police Don't Need A Warrant To Do A Limited Search Of A Mobile Phone
I wonder why this is so hard for courts
The courts shouldn't be looking at a mobile phone as a pocket diary, unless that diary is 415 volumes and includes pictures, videos, movies, music, credit card numbers, legal documents, etc.
On the post: Finnish Act Lets The Public Send Bills To Parliament, Volunteer Group Makes It Easy
Definitely a step in the right direction
Perhaps something like 50k signatures to get the idea recognized as worth being investigated further and then a second threshold of 500k signatures before actual legislation is drafted ( the whole process being transparent ), just to make sure that the legislation is acceptable to a large enough cross section of the population.
It would be interesting to see how such a system would integrate with partisan politics.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused...
"Point is that some people prefer digital and some prefer physical. If someone walked into a store and could not get a cd or whatever then that is a lost sale."
I agree 100% that some people prefer digital and some prefer physical, but where we differ is on the point of counting someone walking into a store and not being able to get a CD and walking out as a lost sale. It could be a lost sale, maybe, but again here I go with a baseless assumption.... I'm thinking, and this has no data backed basis, that just maybe a consumer that wants a product will go on the web and find it and either go to the store that has it or just order it online. Just throwing that out there.
In fact, PaulT argues that it does matter where the physicals are distributed, but when replying to my sarcasm about waiting for a vinyl copy, he sent me a link ( imagine that ), to where I could find a vinyl copy.
Let's look at that, in defense of the position that it DOES matter where the physicals are distributed, he sends a link. That is human nature, to use the tools at our disposal to meet our needs.
While I'm 100% sure that lack of physicals does cut down on impulse buys, does anyone have any data on the impact of impulse buys on the music market? I can't imagine that its statistically significant, but would be interested to see otherwise.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused...
You have considered that an attack from the beginning. Stating over and over that such a simple observation is an attack is odd to me as well.
For some reason you seem to believe that saying baseless assumption empowers your own words. My admission of my "baseless assumption" was sarcasm. Using educated guesses about demographics and trends is hardly baseless.
You seem to be missing the point of the initial baseless assumption. Where the physicals were sold is pretty much irrelevant. The younger audience "trends" toward the digital market, which is why I found that tweet a bit odd.
You can try to explain the reality of the sales by looking for more granular info if you want or just accept the natural trend. Feel free to post some data of your own.
"...did certain areas of the country sell enough to make finding a copy a problem?"
Sorry but that was just funny. Im sure some record exec is asking the EXACT same question. I'm again imagining that group of consumers who just couldn't find a copy and just gave up in disgust. More lost sales who never once thought to buy it online because they just had to have the CD in hand.
On the post: An Open Letter To Content Creators: One 'Pirate' Explains Why He Infringes & How To Get His Money
WOW
I can all ready hear the chorus of "..but..but.. stepping over dollars to pick up pennies isn't a business model."
Mr. Smith does an excellent job of explaining how to get his money and quite possibly my money and probably a lot of other consumers' money.
One thing I think he could have focused on is the massive back catalogs of movies and TV (especially TV). There is a ton of content that is just sitting in vaults, not being sold and not being aired. I'm thinking that counts as lost sales.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused...
The fact that digital sales of his album far out paced physical sales was just some bizarre coincidence that no one could have foreseen.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re: Re: I'm confused...
As far as the album disappearing from shelves in its first week or being hard to find. I don't think that's an issue.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2012/03/kid-cudi-wzrd-jazz-artist-robert-glasper-debu t-high-.html
It appears that 45k of the 66k in sales were digital. So if PaulT still thinks that CuDi has a better feel for how his fans are getting their music and they prefer CDs, well the sales data says otherwise. So much for trends, eh?
While I agree with everyone who says that promotion is a huge factor in sales, I'm not sure that I can agree that the number of physicals released held back the overall sales.
Lastly, when I say that the labels seemed to be accurate in their forecast, I am assuming that physicals are what they think of when they think sales forecast. I was simply noting that the number of physicals was very close to the actual sales, which is a far cry from declaring labels as supreme authorities on marketing.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re: Re: Re:
"..how many people had to walk away empty-handed because their store either didn't receive any or were sold out?"
I had to re-read that a few times, then I had to stop laughing. I'm trying to picture these consumers who are so motivated that they go to the store to buy a CD and can't find what they want and then they just give up in disgust. The point being that it no longer matters if the CDs are not available, since the purchase can be made digitally. 'But.. but.. but.. I want a CD for whatever reason." Yeah I and was hoping for the vinyl release for my hi fi.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re: Re: Re: Re: I'm confused...
You don't get to dismiss my assumption and then assert your own baseless assumption.
You do get to say you have a baseless assumption just like mine, as it's just how you feel about what is happening in the market.
"My comment was merely this - how many of Cudi's fans usually pick up the CD as opposed to just buying digitally?"
There is no easy answer to that one and I don't have a clue. I only followed the line of logic, that CuDi's music appeals to a younger demographic and that population is more likely to follow him on Twitter and FB and on the hip hop blogs and buy digitally. The industry trend, which is not an opinion, is that sales of CDs is in decline while digital sales are on the rise.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re: Re: I'm confused...
Substitute "digitally acquired" for iTunes and the point stands. No I don't have more information about the makeup and preference of his fanbase other than being a fan of his music and never once looking for it in a physical store. Yes it's an assumption and based on current tech trends. I'm not personally familiar with hordes of people lining up for the latest CD from the hottest artists.
I guess I would ask you, do you know of this phenomena? Are there now hordes of fans camping outside record stores or Wal-Marts in hopes of getting their hands on the latest music? Are iPods now fitted with a CD reader?
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
Re:
Personally I don't think the labels forecast digital sales. I think they are still focused on the physical sale and that is where they forecast. Should they just ship enough for a weeks worth? I don't know the answer to that. I can't say that I really understand how the labels think from a business standpoint.
For the purpose of this discussion, the only info given is that 55k in physicals were shipped and that the first weeks sales were 66k. So we know that at the very least 11k was digital sales.
On the post: KiD CuDi's WZRD Debuts At No. 3 Despite Being Swept Under The Rug By Universal
I'm confused...
They shipped 55k physicals and he sold 66k. I'm not sure how many of that 66k were physicals, but it seems like the label was actually in the ballpark on sales forecast. So even though Cary Sherman is a moron, it does seem that the labels still have some idea of how to forecast sales.
Kid CuDi apologizes for not being able to find the CD in stores as if most of his fan base isn't using iTunes. That's just a bit odd.
The only part of his rant that has any real substance is the bit about promotion. Since he is signed to a major label he does have a certain expectation of promotion since that's the function of the label. Then again, I don't remember a ton of hype over his other album.
Articles like this do serve to show just how confusing the music industry really is. You have a disgruntled artist who is doing well in spite of his perceptions about his label, and you have the label which can accurately forecast sales, but seems unsure about how to promote the artist. Then at the end you have the artist apologizing on Twitter for a lack of physical availability.
On the post: Tesla Fails Again In Suing Top Gear For Mocking Tesla's Range
Re:
Basically electric cars are to the oil / automotive industry, the same as the internet is to the content / communications industry.
On the post: Obama Administration: ACTA Is Binding & Don't Worry Your Pretty Little Heads About TPP
Re: Re: OUCH
That single sentence almost burst a blood vessel in my brain. ARE YOU FUCKING NUTZ?!!!???!!!?? Did you listen to the clip at all or does the fact that he spoke at all, indicate openness and responsiveness in your mind?
Allow me to help you: When asked what would happened if Congress enacted laws that run contrary to ACTA, Kirk's response was that Congress would not be constrained in any way when passing laws that are in line with ACTA. Well DUH, we already know that. That WASN'T the question asked.
When asked about the process and transparency, Kirk's response is basically that we are doing things in secret the way they have always been done and see no need to change that because people are speaking out. He then goes on to say there is misinformation out there and we want people to know that TPP is not like SOPA/PIPA at all, but we can't tell you what it's about. This begs the question, how can we be informed about something that we can't be informed about?
Perhaps you should reflect for a moment on the fact that there are many "appointed" members of the Executive branch that are not elected nor representative of the public. Jan.18th showed the world that we may be a republic, but we will certainly not sit quietly and accept abuse from our representatives.
On the post: Isn't It Time Artists Lost Their 18th-Century Sense Of Entitlement?
Re: Subversive nonsense... ( Totally missed the point )
And how many people that pay for a plumber to fix their toilet, continue to pay the plumber a monthly license for every flush? For the life of the plumber plus 70 years of payments to his heirs.
On the post: UK ISPs Lose Their Challenge To The Digital Economy Act; Entertainment Industry Responds Condescendingly
How many enemies can they make?
Now the entertainment industry is waging war on new fronts. Attacking the tech sector in different places. Google, Facebook, and the ISPs are the newest enemies of the entertainment industry.
So let's take a look at the Big Content battle plan, Step 1. Criminalize and shit on consumer base. Step 2. Threaten, bully, and alienate the platforms that the consumer base uses to consume our content. Step 3. Wait for the money to come pouring in.
Instead of those 3 steps, I think the Entertainment Industry needs a good 12 step program.
On the post: RIAA Still Doesn't Get It: Hopes SOPA Opposition Was A 'One-Time Experience'
????
Guys like him will not debate with anyone who has data to back up their words. He did an op-ed in the NYT in response to the online SOPA/PIPA protest. Think about that. He used an analog response to a digital threat. That is all he knows how to do and that is probably a good thing.
On the post: Sony & NBC Interfere With Fan-Funded Web Series, Accomplish Nothing
Maybe the trolls just don't know how to use the web
Why don't those stories ever make headlines? Are there any ?
On the post: RIAA's Cary Sherman: We Really Just Want To Give Consumers What We, Er, They Want
Re:
You have got to be fucking kidding? There are billions of dollars in the music industry and the industry is growing, not shrinking. Profitable is completely subjective. If you take 7 figure salaries of execs and turn them into low 6 figure salaries, you might find there is a lot more profit than anyone imagined.
What happened to the Big Six is more like a "bubble effect". When you artificially inflate the market, eventually the bubble pops.
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