Hahaha! That's a nice little trick, but I'm not falling for it.
Now that you've been called on a bunch of Logical Fallacies, you're trying to shift the blame to me to try to prove a negative: "You need to prove your claim that 'it doesn't happen'
Really? What do you expect me to do? Compile all the tax returns of every server in the US and pass them along to you for review? Pffft.
This has gone well beyond the point of ridiculousness. You just keep bringing up all sorts of little technicalities -- that you're not even able to support, by the way -- that really have nothing to do with the central issue. All they have to do with is your ego and desire to score a win.
I was simply disputing your assertions that "Servers never ever ever pay taxes out of their tip money. Never." and "The Fed just eats the difference." You are wrong on both of those points.
That's quite a claim, because you have yet to show anything to refute either point. I have asked you repeatedly to show point out a single time where YOU, when you were a server, paid your tips in a way other than your paycheck. You haven't because you can't.
And you can't find another server that has, either, because it does not happen.
Likewise, show me a time when you or another server had to pay taxes into the system or even had their refund reduced at year's end tax return time. You can't because this also does not happen.
You can't demonstrate either of those things, yet still have the temerity to say that I'm wrong all because you just have to pretend to win your little Internet debate on an insignificant and largely irrelevant point. You're a joke.
When my car mechanic fucks up my car, I don't pay him either.
There you go again, talking about an utterly different situation. Why are you so desperate to "win" this exchange that you feel you have to move the goalposts all the time?
If a server is so bad that I don't believe they deserve my "gratitude" I won't leave a tip.
Again, you're arguing against something nobody has claimed. I certainly never said you should tip on bad service. In fact, if you weren't so obsessed with trying to win you would already know that I said this about that:
I have personally (and have seen others do this) refused to take a tip from a table because the service was screwed up. Servers don't want charity
The only thing in question anymore is now that you have repeatedly used the tactics of arguing a claim not made and repeatedly moving the goalposts and been called on them, what desperate measure will you use next in your futile attempt to "win"? Here's a list for you to choose among.
I had the opportunity this morning, after friendly smiling service, to speak to the senior person at the business. I made sure that I highlighted my delight at the service and how it was superior to what I had received elsewhere. I did not nor do I feel it in any way necessary to pay the specific staff in question a financial benefit. I make it a point to look around me and compliment people who are doing their job well, no matter kind of job it is.
It sounds as if this was not a food service kind of business, though I can't really be sure. Regardless, at the end of your meeting or whatever it was, if you had known that the owners were not paying those wonderful smiling employees a livable wage, would have then even given a thought to throwing a few bucks their way? Beyond that, would you even consider doing business with a company that you know doesn't pay its people?
If the system is problematic, then do something about it.
As I have said repeatedly, the thing to do is not patronize establishments that do not provide a livable wage to their staff. What are YOU doing about it?
Why don't you vote with your feet and dollars instead of blaming the "victim" (too strong of a word for this case, I know) and taking it out on them?
Yes, we know that you're just gonna have your little tantrum, stomp your feet and still support those kind of places because you feel you are owed going to a nice place where the staff depend on tips for their livelihood, yet somehow still feel that you are entitled to not pay those tips.
It's YOU who needs to grow up. Adults take responsibility for their actions. Adults don't demand their desires be fulfilled without giving anything in return.
Perhaps rather than making such a condescending remark, you could respond to the real point of this discussion that Gwiz has done a remarkable job of distracting us from:
Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.
... you can give your employer money until the close of the calendar year to pay the rest of the taxes
Notice that word "can" there? That means it is NOT a requirement, it's entirely optional. I have over and over and over challenged you to name a time in your serving career when you paid taxes in a way other than your paycheck and you haven't. Are you finally willing to admit that you can't because you never did? Not some example from a completely different occupation that's classified totally differently (as a 1099 subcontractor rather than an "actual" employee), but as a server. I won't hold my breath because I know you can't.
Notice any difference there? I'm challenging you on claims you definitely made but can't back up. You, on the other hand, are arguing against a claim that I never made.
You won't find another server to say that they paid taxes in some way other than out of their paycheck because it just doesn't happen. Yea, their is a very, very remote possibility that it might happen, but in the real world it simply does not.
Let me be clear. Never once did I claim that tips are not taxable income. In fact in my first post on this thread I said:
Let's say [the tips were] $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" ... of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made.
You are doing a fine job of making yourself look disingenuous when you're arguing against a point that nobody claimed.
In the end the real point is this:
Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.
Tips are taxable income. Servers have to pay taxes on tips because it's taxable income.
Can you, for once, try to NOT move the goalposts? Can you manage that?
Show me where I a single damn time said tips were not taxable income. In fact, in my very first post in this thread I said this:
Let's say [the tips were] $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" ... of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made.
It's fascinating to watch how you move the goalposts, backpedal, and pretty much repeat exactly what I said in the first place in your vain attempt to "win" some Internet debate. Not to mention the fact that this one tiny little point that you are so laser-focused on has next to nothing to do with the point at hand, which is this:
Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.
You butt into a conversation spouting bullshit and when you get called on your bullshit you claim the person pointing out how rude you are for bringing incorrect (and frankly, irrelevant to the actual point) information is the one not being "classy"? Good grief.
I worked a couple of years as a contract cable installer
FFS, you can't move the goalposts into an an entirely different profession and then claim that I'm wrong.
Tell me -- and I KNOW you already know this is intent of the original question because it was in response to you claiming to have been a server -- how many times as a server did you do any of those things you mention?
Let me finish that for you: ... the only income the servers receive. They effectively don't get a paycheck. If you're not tipping, you're directly messing with someone's income.
It really doesn't matter if those taxes are paid from the actual tips, the payheck from the house, the server's bank account or from a rusty can of coins buried in the server's backyard. Income taxes are paid on the tips
Yea, so in your "experience" over 30 years ago, tell me how many times you paid money out of your actual tips into taxes, took money out of your bank account to pay those taxes, or dug up a rusty can to pay those taxes?
I already know the answer is ZERO
The ONLY place where you put money into taxes (and you weren't even really doing it yourself) is from your paycheck.
Server Sue works a five-hour shift, ostensibly for $3/hr, and collects $85 in cash tips. The tax rate is 20%.
She reports her tips (honestly) and goes home with $85 cash and a paycheck (or pay stub, or whatever) marked "$0".
Why, oh why, did you recreate my original scenario and just changed the numbers a bit? What is the point of doing that?
She fills out her tax return: gross income $15 + $85 = $100, rate 20%, tax $20, withheld $15, tax due $20 - $15 = $5. She takes $5 out of the jelly jar and mails it to the tax collector.
No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no! What is so hard to understand about: Servers NEVER pay taxes into the system out of their tips. Taxes ONLY get taken out of their paycheck
(There is a potential scenario where a persons tax refund mighttheoretically be reduced by the difference in income earned and taxes paid (via the ONLY play they are EVER paid: the paycheck) but at the income levels we're talking about that just isn't gonna happen)
The bottom line is the fact that the tips are considered taxable income and servers do pay income taxes on the money they receive in tips.
Yes, they are taxable income. Yes, they pay taxes are their tips but only out of their paycheck. Servers never ever ever pay taxes out of their tip money. Never.
Congrats! You've really spun yourself around in circles, moved the goalposts, and left a handful of caveats and loopholes to slink away in. You've even dropped the heavy implication that my position is wrong without even the smallest bit of counterpoint. Well done!
But I guess the only relevant question is ...
Anyway, I have a worldview/ethical position in which it is absolutely 100% OK to not pay people for the work they do in some cases.
... is this restaurant scenario one of those situations?
See my response to Gwiz who is confused and wrong.
It's one reason I tip in cash, no matter how I pay the check.
And this is the preferred method as far as the servers are concerned because tips on credit cards are automatically reported The taxes on those as well as the amount of cash tips the server decides to report are then taken out of the paycheck. The paycheck is the only transaction where taxes are collected. A server never pays taxes with their tips.
That's not true. As far back as the early 80's when I waited tables you had to claim your tips every week on your time card. Taxes for the tips were removed from the paycheck you received from the house. The paychecks I received were usually less than $50 for a 40 hour week after all the taxes were paid.
What you just said in no way refutes what I said. Servers DO NOT pay into taxes with their tips period. You even confirm that point by saying, "Taxes for the tips were removed from the paycheck you received from the house."
Apparently you're misunderstanding me, because nothing in this statement is untrue: "Taxes are only taken out of a paycheck. That's why it's called Income Withholding. Servers don't pay taxes into the system. The Fed just eats the difference." And nothing in your retort says anything to contradict it at all.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Now that you've been called on a bunch of Logical Fallacies, you're trying to shift the blame to me to try to prove a negative: "You need to prove your claim that 'it doesn't happen'
Really? What do you expect me to do? Compile all the tax returns of every server in the US and pass them along to you for review? Pffft.
This has gone well beyond the point of ridiculousness. You just keep bringing up all sorts of little technicalities -- that you're not even able to support, by the way -- that really have nothing to do with the central issue. All they have to do with is your ego and desire to score a win.
I'm tired of it. Buh-bye.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Thanks nasch!
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
That's quite a claim, because you have yet to show anything to refute either point. I have asked you repeatedly to show point out a single time where YOU, when you were a server, paid your tips in a way other than your paycheck. You haven't because you can't.
And you can't find another server that has, either, because it does not happen.
Likewise, show me a time when you or another server had to pay taxes into the system or even had their refund reduced at year's end tax return time. You can't because this also does not happen.
You can't demonstrate either of those things, yet still have the temerity to say that I'm wrong all because you just have to pretend to win your little Internet debate on an insignificant and largely irrelevant point. You're a joke.
When my car mechanic fucks up my car, I don't pay him either.
There you go again, talking about an utterly different situation. Why are you so desperate to "win" this exchange that you feel you have to move the goalposts all the time?
If a server is so bad that I don't believe they deserve my "gratitude" I won't leave a tip.
Again, you're arguing against something nobody has claimed. I certainly never said you should tip on bad service. In fact, if you weren't so obsessed with trying to win you would already know that I said this about that:
I have personally (and have seen others do this) refused to take a tip from a table because the service was screwed up. Servers don't want charity
The only thing in question anymore is now that you have repeatedly used the tactics of arguing a claim not made and repeatedly moving the goalposts and been called on them, what desperate measure will you use next in your futile attempt to "win"? Here's a list for you to choose among.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
It sounds as if this was not a food service kind of business, though I can't really be sure. Regardless, at the end of your meeting or whatever it was, if you had known that the owners were not paying those wonderful smiling employees a livable wage, would have then even given a thought to throwing a few bucks their way? Beyond that, would you even consider doing business with a company that you know doesn't pay its people?
If the system is problematic, then do something about it.
As I have said repeatedly, the thing to do is not patronize establishments that do not provide a livable wage to their staff. What are YOU doing about it?
Why don't you vote with your feet and dollars instead of blaming the "victim" (too strong of a word for this case, I know) and taking it out on them?
Yes, we know that you're just gonna have your little tantrum, stomp your feet and still support those kind of places because you feel you are owed going to a nice place where the staff depend on tips for their livelihood, yet somehow still feel that you are entitled to not pay those tips.
It's YOU who needs to grow up. Adults take responsibility for their actions. Adults don't demand their desires be fulfilled without giving anything in return.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Anyway, I have a worldview/ethical position in which it is absolutely 100% OK to not pay people for the work they do in some cases.
... is this restaurant scenario one of those situations?
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Notice that word "can" there? That means it is NOT a requirement, it's entirely optional. I have over and over and over challenged you to name a time in your serving career when you paid taxes in a way other than your paycheck and you haven't. Are you finally willing to admit that you can't because you never did? Not some example from a completely different occupation that's classified totally differently (as a 1099 subcontractor rather than an "actual" employee), but as a server. I won't hold my breath because I know you can't.
Notice any difference there? I'm challenging you on claims you definitely made but can't back up. You, on the other hand, are arguing against a claim that I never made.
You won't find another server to say that they paid taxes in some way other than out of their paycheck because it just doesn't happen. Yea, their is a very, very remote possibility that it might happen, but in the real world it simply does not.
Let me be clear. Never once did I claim that tips are not taxable income. In fact in my first post on this thread I said:
Let's say [the tips were] $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" ... of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made.
You are doing a fine job of making yourself look disingenuous when you're arguing against a point that nobody claimed.
In the end the real point is this:Try to stay on topic. Dude.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Can you, for once, try to NOT move the goalposts? Can you manage that?
Show me where I a single damn time said tips were not taxable income. In fact, in my very first post in this thread I said this:
Let's say [the tips were] $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" ... of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made.
It's fascinating to watch how you move the goalposts, backpedal, and pretty much repeat exactly what I said in the first place in your vain attempt to "win" some Internet debate. Not to mention the fact that this one tiny little point that you are so laser-focused on has next to nothing to do with the point at hand, which is this:
Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.
Try to stay on topic. Dude.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
You butt into a conversation spouting bullshit and when you get called on your bullshit you claim the person pointing out how rude you are for bringing incorrect (and frankly, irrelevant to the actual point) information is the one not being "classy"? Good grief.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Too bad you didn't.
And can't.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
FFS, you can't move the goalposts into an an entirely different profession and then claim that I'm wrong.
Tell me -- and I KNOW you already know this is intent of the original question because it was in response to you claiming to have been a server -- how many times as a server did you do any of those things you mention?
I already know the answer is ZERO
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
In your experience those many years ago, how many times did you "pay the income tax on [your] own"?
I already know the answer is ZERO.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Let me finish that for you: ... the only income the servers receive. They effectively don't get a paycheck. If you're not tipping, you're directly messing with someone's income.
That was the bottom line before you butted in.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
And how many times in your experience did either of those scenarios happen to you?
I already know the answer is ZERO
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Yea, so in your "experience" over 30 years ago, tell me how many times you paid money out of your actual tips into taxes, took money out of your bank account to pay those taxes, or dug up a rusty can to pay those taxes?
I already know the answer is ZERO
The ONLY place where you put money into taxes (and you weren't even really doing it yourself) is from your paycheck.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
She reports her tips (honestly) and goes home with $85 cash and a paycheck (or pay stub, or whatever) marked "$0".
Why, oh why, did you recreate my original scenario and just changed the numbers a bit? What is the point of doing that?
She fills out her tax return: gross income $15 + $85 = $100, rate 20%, tax $20, withheld $15, tax due $20 - $15 = $5. She takes $5 out of the jelly jar and mails it to the tax collector.
No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no! What is so hard to understand about: Servers NEVER pay taxes into the system out of their tips. Taxes ONLY get taken out of their paycheck
(There is a potential scenario where a persons tax refund mighttheoretically be reduced by the difference in income earned and taxes paid (via the ONLY play they are EVER paid: the paycheck) but at the income levels we're talking about that just isn't gonna happen)
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
Yes, they are taxable income. Yes, they pay taxes are their tips but only out of their paycheck. Servers never ever ever pay taxes out of their tip money. Never.
What's so hard to understand about this?
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
But I guess the only relevant question is ...
Anyway, I have a worldview/ethical position in which it is absolutely 100% OK to not pay people for the work they do in some cases.
... is this restaurant scenario one of those situations?
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
See my response to Gwiz who is confused and wrong.
It's one reason I tip in cash, no matter how I pay the check.
And this is the preferred method as far as the servers are concerned because tips on credit cards are automatically reported The taxes on those as well as the amount of cash tips the server decides to report are then taken out of the paycheck. The paycheck is the only transaction where taxes are collected. A server never pays taxes with their tips.
On the post: DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...
What you just said in no way refutes what I said. Servers DO NOT pay into taxes with their tips period. You even confirm that point by saying, "Taxes for the tips were removed from the paycheck you received from the house."
Apparently you're misunderstanding me, because nothing in this statement is untrue: "Taxes are only taken out of a paycheck. That's why it's called Income Withholding. Servers don't pay taxes into the system. The Fed just eats the difference." And nothing in your retort says anything to contradict it at all.
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