Absolutely, and I often take breaks to see how wonderfully few people actually care about these matters if you don't pay attention to it (I had the same issue regarding matters of copyright, trademarks, and patents btw; if you focus on the larger news outlets you'd think these issues don't even exist, yet when you return to Techdirt...).
At the same time however I've noticed how an increasingly large group of people are getting fed up with political correctness. Right wing political groups in the Netherlands that are pro Zwarte Piet, anti-immigration, anti changing greetings from "ladies and gentlemen" to "travelers", and anti changing street names (because our folk heroes lived in time of colonialism, and so were completely bad) are more popular than ever, and I agree with professor Peterson that this is in part due to the radical agenda pushing of extreme left-wing groups. As a left-wing voter, this truly worries me, since true matters of concern regarding LGBT and minority groups are ignored over idiotic requests for "politeness".
I don't spend time training Google, but I generally read articles that I disagree with. I don't feel a need for an echo chamber, so I prefer to read opposing views. Sometimes opposing arguments even convince me that I was wrong, though I admit that those times are rare. I generally read a LOT before forming an opinion, so it takes some very strong arguments to convince me afterwards.
I didn't say I agreed with their points of view. I personally would have been willing to address students by their preferred name or even pronoun. These were examples asked for based on two points I made earlier.
One teacher was fired for accidentally saying "well done, girls" to a group of students, one of which whom identified as male now. The teacher immediately apologized, but the student's parents later filed a complaint, which ultimately led to his dismissal.
The second teacher felt that for religious reasons he did not agree with calling students by their new name rather than their birth name, and so, in agreement with the school, decided to call all students by their last name. The school later reversed its position, and told him to either adapt, resign or be fired.
That's up to you. If you're not willing to actually debate the issue at hand, and prefer to attach my character in stead, then I guess we're done talking.
If you wish to debate me on my views, just say so, and we'll start this discussion from the start, and I'll tell you where I personally stand. You can then compare that to professor Peterson's views to see if they match or not. People asked me why he might file this suit, and I've tried to come up with an explanation based on what I know about him. If they didn't want to know, they should not have asked. If you didn't want to know, you should not have read my answers.
I already posted an ABC link to the same story moments after the bias of the first link was mentioned. Is that more acceptable to you?
I actually read a lot of stories from a lot of different sources, but if you must know: I voted Groen-Links in the last elections, one of the most left-wing parties we have in this left-leaning country of the Netherlands, am pro-abortion, and my brother-in-law, whom I adore, lives with his husband.
Please stop making bad assumptions based on which stories may or may not pop up in my Google searches; if I search for Jordan Peterson the top 10 stories are hit pieces on his character, so that says very very little.
Actually, I know more than a few, but that's not really important here, now is it? In fact, they transitioned from male to female or vise versa, and wish to be called he or she depending on their new gender. They heavily dislike the 100s of genders we now have and the pronouns that come with it. Not only does it paint them in a bad light with the general population, but they get shunned by radical members of their own community for actually wanting be called male or female, man or woman.
I have every respect for transgender people, and I will stand by their side and fight for their equal rights, but if you choose to place yourself outside the male/female spectrum you can ask me kindly whether I will call you by a word you made up. If you try to force me via the law, you will not find me on your side.
So, now that I answered my own question: I draw the line at number 4 if you ask me nicely, and at number 1 if you do not, and will not accept a law that forces me to do so. Where do you stand?
If you'd have taken the effort to actually read my posts in this thread, you would have found that I've already said several times that IMHO his lawsuit was not a good idea. As such, I don't justify his lawsuit; I'm just explaining it. I think I've read and viewed enough of professor Peterson's work to have a general view on his thoughts. That does not mean I always agree with them. It's up to you though; do you wish to debate his ideas or mine, because currently we're debating his.
Not really, but you reacting this way rather than countering the argument using a better link that supports your point of view like I asked you to certainly says a lot about you. :)
None of us can know for sure of course, but it is my guess that professor Peterson would have let this one go if the University had actually delivered on its promise to improve conditions at the school rather than continue to bully Lindsay Shepherd as stated by her own lawsuit. In spite of the apology, it appears the University actually feels it did nothing wrong: The people involved have not been punished, and the situation has not improved.
I personally would not have chosen this course of action; I think him just supporting her lawsuit would have shown a kinder picture to the world. Perhaps this is what her lawyer recommended though; it's hard to say. As it is, we both question the wisdom behind this lawsuit.
I do wonder how far your "politeness" goes though. Knowing that I'm male and express myself as male: 1. Would you refer to me as she, if I asked you kindly? 2. Would you refer to me as xe, if I asked you kindly? 3. Would you refer to me as them, if I asked you kindly? 4. Would you refer to me as ghumsk, if I asked you kindly? 5. Would you refer to me as your majesty, if I asked you kindly? If not, where do you draw the line, and why?
Would you still feel the same way if this was backed by law, and I could sue you for not delivering on my request? If so, you are certainly a kinder person than I am. Does that make me an asshole?
While I somewhat agree with you here, I think there's a difference between freedom to express your opinion, however impopular it may be, and freedom to discredit someone by making knowingly false claims.
Fair enough; it was just one of the first links that popped up in Google, but if you have a better one: feel free to post it. I judge news based on content; not on source; Even Alex Jones occasionally has a valid point. 😀
Hmm, something went wrong with that post, and my sentences were placed in the wrong order. My apologies for that.
Yes, you could ask, and try to remember mine along with those of your other 200 students in class, if I was present. An additional problem is that I don't have to be present for you to misgender me, since, as I said, pronouns are rarely used when talking to someone, but generally when talking about someone.
You may be right that there were additional reasons at play, but I haven't found any news article mentioning something that would strike me as valid. If you do, please let me know.
As for your qualification of professor Peterson; that's up to you. :) We don't all need to like the same people. I would like to point out however that legal scholars are not in agreement regarding bill C-16. At best it's too vaguely written, but several high standing legal minds have already said that professor Peterson's reading of the bill is correct. These kind of vague laws are very easy to abuse.
Yes, you could ask, and try to remember mine along with those of your other 200 students in class, if I was present. An additional problem is that I don't have to be present for you to misgender me, since, as I said, pronouns are rarely used when talking to someone, but generally when talking about someone.
As for your qualification of professor Peterson; that's up to you. :) We don't all need to like the same people. I would like to point out however that legal scholars are not in agreement regarding bill C-16. At best it's too vaguely written, but several high standing legal minds have already said that professor Peterson's reading of the bill is correct. These kind of vague laws are very easy to abuse.
https://www.culturewarresource.com/resign-or-be-fired-christian-teacher-forced-out-over-schoo ls-transgender-policy/
You may be right that there were additional reasons at play, but I haven't found any news article mentioning something that would strike me as valid. If you do, please let me know.
True, we have a few exceptions with predefined titles that people have earned and need to be addressed by. That's not the same as you trying to figure out what pronouns I wish to be called by at this hour of the day under pressure of law.
Please remember that according to some there are over 100 different genders at the moment, some of which claim that they can switch their pronouns from one moment to the next. Now remember that pronouns are rarely used when you're speaking TO someone, but generally when you're speaking ABOUT someone.
Keeping that in mind, please try to have a conversation about one of your hundreds of students, knowing that misgendering them can cost you your job, and knowing that teachers have been fired for: 1. Choosing to use names in stead of pronouns. 2. Accidentally using the wrong pronoun. Please, go ahead, and after you've lost your job you can tell me all about how this was about you having to be polite.
You see, a few years ago, when bill C-16 came about, professor Peterson's warnings were just considered him being paranoid by some. We've now arrived where the first people have actually been fired over legislation and policies like this, though it seems that within Canada things are relatively quiet so far. True, there haven't been many so far, but it doesn't bode well.
I agree with you that language isn't written in stone (well, it used to be, quite literally, but that's a different topic), and if language is adapted via society, then that's a completely different matter. That's quite different from introducing new words that HAVE to be used via legislation however.
As professor Peterson has clearly stated: he does not care what people wish to call themselves, and if a specific person has good reasons for wanting to be called by certain names/words, then that's a negotiation between two people. Enforcing people by law or even by policy to use certain words however is an entirely different matter, and unheard of until recent times. Several teachers have already been disciplined or fired over things like using the wrong pronouns, which is absolutely ridiculous IMHO.
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After rereading the definitions, you may have a point that this is more an example of diversity than of equity, though as far as I can see these two theories are very closely related, and can have equally destructive outcomes on society if pushed too far.
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Ok, second example: critical race theory, where one racial group is taught to have significant privilege over another racial group.
While I believe that on average, a member of one racial group may have an advantage over a member of another racial group, this says very little about a random member of these groups. As such, any group based policy to correct the average will likely result in the serious disadvantage of a random member of said groups, yet such policies are exactly what are being advocated in these classes.
(Note that I'm now posing my own thoughts on this matter rather than professor Peterson's thoughts)
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On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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At the same time however I've noticed how an increasingly large group of people are getting fed up with political correctness. Right wing political groups in the Netherlands that are pro Zwarte Piet, anti-immigration, anti changing greetings from "ladies and gentlemen" to "travelers", and anti changing street names (because our folk heroes lived in time of colonialism, and so were completely bad) are more popular than ever, and I agree with professor Peterson that this is in part due to the radical agenda pushing of extreme left-wing groups. As a left-wing voter, this truly worries me, since true matters of concern regarding LGBT and minority groups are ignored over idiotic requests for "politeness".
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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I didn't say I agreed with their points of view. I personally would have been willing to address students by their preferred name or even pronoun. These were examples asked for based on two points I made earlier.
One teacher was fired for accidentally saying "well done, girls" to a group of students, one of which whom identified as male now. The teacher immediately apologized, but the student's parents later filed a complaint, which ultimately led to his dismissal.
The second teacher felt that for religious reasons he did not agree with calling students by their new name rather than their birth name, and so, in agreement with the school, decided to call all students by their last name. The school later reversed its position, and told him to either adapt, resign or be fired.
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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If you wish to debate me on my views, just say so, and we'll start this discussion from the start, and I'll tell you where I personally stand. You can then compare that to professor Peterson's views to see if they match or not. People asked me why he might file this suit, and I've tried to come up with an explanation based on what I know about him. If they didn't want to know, they should not have asked. If you didn't want to know, you should not have read my answers.
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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I actually read a lot of stories from a lot of different sources, but if you must know: I voted Groen-Links in the last elections, one of the most left-wing parties we have in this left-leaning country of the Netherlands, am pro-abortion, and my brother-in-law, whom I adore, lives with his husband.
Please stop making bad assumptions based on which stories may or may not pop up in my Google searches; if I search for Jordan Peterson the top 10 stories are hit pieces on his character, so that says very very little.
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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Actually, I know more than a few, but that's not really important here, now is it? In fact, they transitioned from male to female or vise versa, and wish to be called he or she depending on their new gender. They heavily dislike the 100s of genders we now have and the pronouns that come with it. Not only does it paint them in a bad light with the general population, but they get shunned by radical members of their own community for actually wanting be called male or female, man or woman.
I have every respect for transgender people, and I will stand by their side and fight for their equal rights, but if you choose to place yourself outside the male/female spectrum you can ask me kindly whether I will call you by a word you made up. If you try to force me via the law, you will not find me on your side.
So, now that I answered my own question: I draw the line at number 4 if you ask me nicely, and at number 1 if you do not, and will not accept a law that forces me to do so. Where do you stand?
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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I personally would not have chosen this course of action; I think him just supporting her lawsuit would have shown a kinder picture to the world. Perhaps this is what her lawyer recommended though; it's hard to say. As it is, we both question the wisdom behind this lawsuit.
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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1. Would you refer to me as she, if I asked you kindly?
2. Would you refer to me as xe, if I asked you kindly?
3. Would you refer to me as them, if I asked you kindly?
4. Would you refer to me as ghumsk, if I asked you kindly?
5. Would you refer to me as your majesty, if I asked you kindly?
If not, where do you draw the line, and why?
Would you still feel the same way if this was backed by law, and I could sue you for not delivering on my request? If so, you are certainly a kinder person than I am. Does that make me an asshole?
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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https://www.abc15.com/news/national/teacher-says-he-was-forced-to-resign-because-he-wouldn-t- call-trans-students-by-preferred-name
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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Hmm, something went wrong with that post, and my sentences were placed in the wrong order. My apologies for that.
Yes, you could ask, and try to remember mine along with those of your other 200 students in class, if I was present. An additional problem is that I don't have to be present for you to misgender me, since, as I said, pronouns are rarely used when talking to someone, but generally when talking about someone.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/teacher-transgender-student-girl-accident-call -trans-wrong-gender-joshua-sutcliffe-a8054146.html
https://www.culturewarresource.com/resign-or-be-f ired-christian-teacher-forced-out-over-schools-transgender-policy/
You may be right that there were additional reasons at play, but I haven't found any news article mentioning something that would strike me as valid. If you do, please let me know.
As for your qualification of professor Peterson; that's up to you. :) We don't all need to like the same people. I would like to point out however that legal scholars are not in agreement regarding bill C-16. At best it's too vaguely written, but several high standing legal minds have already said that professor Peterson's reading of the bill is correct. These kind of vague laws are very easy to abuse.
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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Yes, you could ask, and try to remember mine along with those of your other 200 students in class, if I was present. An additional problem is that I don't have to be present for you to misgender me, since, as I said, pronouns are rarely used when talking to someone, but generally when talking about someone.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/teacher-transgender-student-girl-accident-call -trans-wrong-gender-joshua-sutcliffe-a8054146.html
As for your qualification of professor Peterson; that's up to you. :) We don't all need to like the same people. I would like to point out however that legal scholars are not in agreement regarding bill C-16. At best it's too vaguely written, but several high standing legal minds have already said that professor Peterson's reading of the bill is correct. These kind of vague laws are very easy to abuse. https://www.culturewarresource.com/resign-or-be-fired-christian-teacher-forced-out-over-schoo ls-transgender-policy/
You may be right that there were additional reasons at play, but I haven't found any news article mentioning something that would strike me as valid. If you do, please let me know.
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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Please remember that according to some there are over 100 different genders at the moment, some of which claim that they can switch their pronouns from one moment to the next. Now remember that pronouns are rarely used when you're speaking TO someone, but generally when you're speaking ABOUT someone.
Keeping that in mind, please try to have a conversation about one of your hundreds of students, knowing that misgendering them can cost you your job, and knowing that teachers have been fired for:
1. Choosing to use names in stead of pronouns.
2. Accidentally using the wrong pronoun.
Please, go ahead, and after you've lost your job you can tell me all about how this was about you having to be polite.
You see, a few years ago, when bill C-16 came about, professor Peterson's warnings were just considered him being paranoid by some. We've now arrived where the first people have actually been fired over legislation and policies like this, though it seems that within Canada things are relatively quiet so far. True, there haven't been many so far, but it doesn't bode well.
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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As professor Peterson has clearly stated: he does not care what people wish to call themselves, and if a specific person has good reasons for wanting to be called by certain names/words, then that's a negotiation between two people. Enforcing people by law or even by policy to use certain words however is an entirely different matter, and unheard of until recent times. Several teachers have already been disciplined or fired over things like using the wrong pronouns, which is absolutely ridiculous IMHO.
On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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On the post: Supposed 'Free Speech' Warrior Jordan Peterson Sues University Because Silly Professor Said Some Mean Things About Him
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While I believe that on average, a member of one racial group may have an advantage over a member of another racial group, this says very little about a random member of these groups. As such, any group based policy to correct the average will likely result in the serious disadvantage of a random member of said groups, yet such policies are exactly what are being advocated in these classes.
(Note that I'm now posing my own thoughts on this matter rather than professor Peterson's thoughts)
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