What was TMI? The idea that a mom of three might occasionally have sex and mention it in a conversation about the possible neglect of a child while their parent is having sex? (And, I might add, after you mentioned 'banging'.)
If that's your idea of TMI, then you should stay off the of the Internet.
She was hardly acting like someone who had just been raped.
Wow, I wasn't aware that there was a standard way to act when you've just been raped. Thanks for letting me know that anyone who isn't huddled up into a ball is faking it.
Man. I misread what you wrote and was really disappointed when I clicked through and saw that average_joe didn't flash instructions for an atomic bomb.
This whole thing is stupid. If you don't want your child to watch nudity or hear expletives, turn your TV off. No one is forcing you to have a television, cable, or a lack of parental controls.
And before anyone asks, I have three children (9, 7, and 4) so I absolutely understand what it's like to parent children.
The free expression of Janet and Co. is more important than the hardship of monitoring TV for my kids (not that seeing her chest was any more harmful than seeing mine was).
Obviously you were not in the same courtroom I was when... blah blah blah... has nothing to do with spousal abuse... yada yada... unrelated personal experience... and for you to even claim that I'm wrong is at least somewhat insensitive and at most completely disrespectful of the facts.
What facts? I was speaking of the law concerning spousal abuse and child custody. You're talking about something else entirely.
I still believe contacting bio-Dad is the right first step, if bio-Dad says "Call the cops!" then onward and away to the authorities.
And I still believe that running to the ex is a revenge move, pure and simple.
CPS is not the first call to make unless the child is already being subjected to the abuse.
According to you, the child was already in danger. I was the one arguing that since he wasn't around Alleged Abuser, he wasn't in any danger. Regardless, with questions of child welfare, the first step is always to call CPS.
Opinions aren't ever wrong because they belong to the person who holds them despite what their reason is for having said opinion.
I didn't say that your opinion was 'wrong'. I said it was irrelevant to this discussion.
The story says: "Her e-mail showed she was having an affair with her second husband, a man who once had been arrested for beating her in front of her small son."
So we have at least one witness to the alleged action - compared to wishful thinking tied to the "innocent until proven guilty" side of it.
Again, this is my opinion and IANAL, but if the son witnessed it - it is awfully hard to claim that it didn't happen regardless of whether there were charges or a conviction involved.
Did the police report say that her son was a witness? The story I read did state that he was arrested for abusing her, but it was Hubby #3 who claimed that the abuse happened in front of her child. Regardless, the child would have been a toddler at the time, and hardly any kind of witness to the alleged incident.
If he wasn't a toddler, then he's now old enough to report any abuse on his own, without 'help' from his mom's ex-husband. Also, he's old enough to sit at home reading books and playing video games while his mom has an affair, goes to a movie, or whatever. No neglect involved.
We have come to the point where we actually agree that the guy shouldn't be charged but disagree on his actions and I'm OK with that.
That's been my stated opinion since the beginning of the thread. :)
This isn't a win-lose scenario, simply a debate on actions of others with literally nothing at stake on the pages of TD.
This is nothing new, I know personally of three separate people this is happening to right now. It is a scam perpetrated by the banks. They are quite literally openly engaging in fraud.
Agreed. This happens every damned day, and no one cares.
I wouldn't call their biological donors 'parents', either, and my 'personal definition' happens to coincide with the real dictionary definitions, which use terms like 'caretaker'.
I don't know about all that. It seems like the term 'parent' should only be used with people who, you know, parent. For instance, I refer to my mom's husband as 'my mom's husband'. He might legally be my step-parent, but he's never parented me (They got married when I was 24.) so it would be weird calling him my step-dad or any other term that denotes parenting. :P
Otherwise, fidelity is part of the vows and the contract they made at the time of marriage.
Says who? I don't know about you, but I define fidelity as being faithful to the actual promises and agreements that my husband and I have made together, rather than some undefined, undiscussed code of behavior gathered from our own personal experiences, which are usually different than your partner’s view of fidelity.
Not saying that she didn't cheat. I am simply saying that the absence of an agreement is simply that - an absence. There is no uniform, standard agreement, so your agreement doesn't revert to some other agreement in the meantime.
Easy ace - he's not the one suing for custody - the father is and he certainly is well within his rights to do so especially if he feels his son may be endangered in an an unsafe environment. Sorry - no revenge motive for you.
Bio Dad may not have a revenge motive, but you're telling me that you really believe that Hubby #3 calling Bio Dad up with potentially damaging info about the mom isn't supposed to be revenge?
Calling CPS would be a protective action. Calling the ex is revenge.
...certainly many other professions would frown on this info being made public about an employee... This aspect could easily be more damaging to a parent than a custody battle...
Okay, I can see this being a problem in any of the professions that you named, but I don't see a woman who's been through this many husbands/lovers in this short amount of time being in a sex-negative church or profession.
Regardless, this isn't a good argument. The availability of a 'better' revenge doesn't preclude the possibility of this action being motivated by revenge.
The emails aren't the danger, the man she's sending them to is the danger.
Is he? Really? Are you sure? Because I'm not. A man with no history of violence, who was never prosecuted or convicted for the sole arrest? I don't see any evidence of potential child abuse here, especially because the child and Alleged Abuser aren't currently interacting.
Waiting for abuse to re-occur before doing anything about it - really?
Who said anything about waiting for abuse? This child is not in danger from someone that he doesn't even see, especially a person that may not even be violent.
Hopefully it won't involve a sheet for Mom and the son as they are removed from the crime scene.
Wow, where's Helen Lovejoy when you need her?
Can you please explain to me how someone who may or may not be violent is a danger to people that he's not even around?
Also, can you explain to me how calling the ex to begin a long and arduous legal battle helps remove the child from danger?
How does this not count as taking every reasonable step to ensure the child's safety from a known violent person? Wow!
A reasonable step would be calling CPS, who can remove the child immediately, quickly obtain a court order barring the mother from letting the child and Alleged Abuser interact, or any other number of options.
Calling the ex is not a reasonable step.
You'd be surprised what alters the courts decisions and proof is not especially needed when a woman's word is used against a man in a court room for custody purposes. ... Been there - seen it first hand, sorry epic fail and if you're fortunate its because of a lack of experience or exposure to the Family Court System.
Wow, you're incredibly wrong. Most states don't allow a judge to consider past physical abuse of the mother, because 'it's not proof that they would abuse the child'. Been there, lived it first-hand. Sorry, epic fail on your part.
The parental perspective is not for moral high ground (those who claim moral high ground are usually in a ditch proclaiming such!)...
Agreed.
...but for experience in child custody and divorce situations and what step parents may or may not do and whether they are better to ignore or act on the child's behalf as an adult if not as a biological parent.
Calling yourself a parent doesn't denote experience in child custody situations, and this man didn't act on behalf of the child, or in a way that might help secure the child from potential danger. Nice try, though.
There is already a known occurrence of violence involving the two individuals...
No, there's a known allegation. There's pretty different from a 'known occurrence'. Also, didn't you just say that you had experience in a situation where a woman made a baseless accusation about a man?
"...conviction or charges are NOT necessary when deciding on an appropriate action - he is not the law, nor should he act as if he were."
No, he should have called the law, but he didn't.
If that were my child you can bet your last dollar I'd want to be the first to know and you can be certain that I will protect my child at all costs - again the parental experience comes into play but not for moral high ground.
Your desire to know is irrelevant. Hubby #3 didn't say that he called Bio Dad because he knew Bio Dad would want to know. That would be more acceptable than his crappy 'Child Protection' excuse.
Whatever happened to community property in a marriage?
I don't think community property applies to this case, but I do think it's stupid to charge a man for reading e-mail when they would ignore reading a diary. It's laughable when you put it that way.
"Officer, arrest this man! He read my diary without my permission!"
Who said the step-son was in danger from the e-mails? The danger is that his mom was seeing a man who previously beat her in front of him.
No, the 'danger' was that the mom was secretly sleeping with a man who had allegedly abused her on a previous occasion. This doesn't insinuate any level of danger or even any level of interaction between the child and the alleged abuser.
However, if there was cause for concern, calling CPS would have helped. A custody battle does not.
Wait until there was something to protect him from? See 'a' above.
If there's no interaction, there's no potential for abuse. As I stated previously, if she starts seeing or moves in with Alleged Abuser, then someone needs to call CPS so they can evaluate the household and remove the child, if they find it necessary.
Also, should he not involve some authorities until the 2nd husband has beaten the wife again?
As I stated previously, Hubby #3 should call CPS if he believes that the child may interact with someone that may be dangerous. CPS can get a court order that blocks the mom from letting the child and Alleged Abuser interact, right down to not being able to visit her son in a home where Alleged Abuser lives. Unfortunately for the child, Hubby #3 didn't do that.
Calling Bio Dad doesn't count as a protective action because it won't protect the child. Bio Dad doesn't really have any standing, and custody generally stays the same until the final determination, which can take up to a year, and usually does.
Even then, the child would still be visiting his mom and Alleged Abuser (if the mom moves in with him or starts seeing him), so he's still in 'danger'.
Actually, I doubt any authorities would do anything at all unless he beat her again, assuming no restraining order is in place.
Again, he hasn't ever been convicted of beating her, and it's obvious that she has some honesty issues, so I'm going to hold off on judging him.
c. What he did was possibly motivated by revenge. What she did was definitely motivated by revenge.
Absolutely. No way do I think that this guy should be charged. But I also don't believe that he should be lauded for his actions, because they were either:
a. motivated by revenge, or
b. stupid and unhelpful.
You don't see? Then you're not thinking this through, because unless you have the answers to some very important questions, you should be able to see how her sex life affects her son.
No, you're thinking way too much about it.
Where is the child while his mom is banging his former stepdad?
School, friend's, relatives, babysitter? Where is any child while their parents are getting laid, seeing a movie, visiting friends, getting hair or nails done, shopping, or anything else not child-friendly?
Is he in the same room/domicile as his abusive step father? If so, he's potentially in danger.
If he's in danger, then someone needs to call CPS. A custody battle is not going to get him out of the living room of the place where his mom may or may not be having sex anytime soon, if at all. (Do you see why I don't think he was acting 'in the best interest of the child' yet?)
Regardless, if she's having an affair, I doubt she's taking the kid over there.
If not, he may be neglected and/or abandoned, which is definitely affecting her son.
Wow. So I'm neglecting my kid every time my husband and I take a nooner, huh? Good to know. I'll be sure to drag my children with me everywhere I go from now on, instead of leaving them in the care of other competent adults. Also, I've never have sex again. (That'll be good for my parenting skills, I'm sure.)
Look, parents have sex lives. Many kids don't even notice, and successfully pretend that it isn't happening. When you take that level of blissful oblivion and add in the fact that she was carrying on a clandestine affair, I doubt he knew anything about it until this happened, and maybe not even now.
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If that's your idea of TMI, then you should stay off the of the Internet.
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Wow, I wasn't aware that there was a standard way to act when you've just been raped. Thanks for letting me know that anyone who isn't huddled up into a ball is faking it.
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Only seven years?
And before anyone asks, I have three children (9, 7, and 4) so I absolutely understand what it's like to parent children.
The free expression of Janet and Co. is more important than the hardship of monitoring TV for my kids (not that seeing her chest was any more harmful than seeing mine was).
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What facts? I was speaking of the law concerning spousal abuse and child custody. You're talking about something else entirely.
I still believe contacting bio-Dad is the right first step, if bio-Dad says "Call the cops!" then onward and away to the authorities.
And I still believe that running to the ex is a revenge move, pure and simple.
CPS is not the first call to make unless the child is already being subjected to the abuse.
According to you, the child was already in danger. I was the one arguing that since he wasn't around Alleged Abuser, he wasn't in any danger. Regardless, with questions of child welfare, the first step is always to call CPS.
Opinions aren't ever wrong because they belong to the person who holds them despite what their reason is for having said opinion.
I didn't say that your opinion was 'wrong'. I said it was irrelevant to this discussion.
The story says: "Her e-mail showed she was having an affair with her second husband, a man who once had been arrested for beating her in front of her small son."
So we have at least one witness to the alleged action - compared to wishful thinking tied to the "innocent until proven guilty" side of it.
Again, this is my opinion and IANAL, but if the son witnessed it - it is awfully hard to claim that it didn't happen regardless of whether there were charges or a conviction involved.
Did the police report say that her son was a witness? The story I read did state that he was arrested for abusing her, but it was Hubby #3 who claimed that the abuse happened in front of her child. Regardless, the child would have been a toddler at the time, and hardly any kind of witness to the alleged incident.
If he wasn't a toddler, then he's now old enough to report any abuse on his own, without 'help' from his mom's ex-husband. Also, he's old enough to sit at home reading books and playing video games while his mom has an affair, goes to a movie, or whatever. No neglect involved.
We have come to the point where we actually agree that the guy shouldn't be charged but disagree on his actions and I'm OK with that.
That's been my stated opinion since the beginning of the thread. :)
This isn't a win-lose scenario, simply a debate on actions of others with literally nothing at stake on the pages of TD.
Indeed, but debate is certainly interesting.
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Agreed. This happens every damned day, and no one cares.
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I wouldn't call their biological donors 'parents', either, and my 'personal definition' happens to coincide with the real dictionary definitions, which use terms like 'caretaker'.
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Says who? I don't know about you, but I define fidelity as being faithful to the actual promises and agreements that my husband and I have made together, rather than some undefined, undiscussed code of behavior gathered from our own personal experiences, which are usually different than your partner’s view of fidelity.
Not saying that she didn't cheat. I am simply saying that the absence of an agreement is simply that - an absence. There is no uniform, standard agreement, so your agreement doesn't revert to some other agreement in the meantime.
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"Officer, arrest this man! He read my diary without my permission!"
"Lolwhut?"
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"Officer, arrest this man! He read my diary without my permission!"
"Lolwhut?"
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Bio Dad may not have a revenge motive, but you're telling me that you really believe that Hubby #3 calling Bio Dad up with potentially damaging info about the mom isn't supposed to be revenge?
Calling CPS would be a protective action. Calling the ex is revenge.
...certainly many other professions would frown on this info being made public about an employee... This aspect could easily be more damaging to a parent than a custody battle...
Okay, I can see this being a problem in any of the professions that you named, but I don't see a woman who's been through this many husbands/lovers in this short amount of time being in a sex-negative church or profession.
Regardless, this isn't a good argument. The availability of a 'better' revenge doesn't preclude the possibility of this action being motivated by revenge.
The emails aren't the danger, the man she's sending them to is the danger.
Is he? Really? Are you sure? Because I'm not. A man with no history of violence, who was never prosecuted or convicted for the sole arrest? I don't see any evidence of potential child abuse here, especially because the child and Alleged Abuser aren't currently interacting.
Waiting for abuse to re-occur before doing anything about it - really?
Who said anything about waiting for abuse? This child is not in danger from someone that he doesn't even see, especially a person that may not even be violent.
Hopefully it won't involve a sheet for Mom and the son as they are removed from the crime scene.
Wow, where's Helen Lovejoy when you need her?
Can you please explain to me how someone who may or may not be violent is a danger to people that he's not even around?
Also, can you explain to me how calling the ex to begin a long and arduous legal battle helps remove the child from danger?
How does this not count as taking every reasonable step to ensure the child's safety from a known violent person? Wow!
A reasonable step would be calling CPS, who can remove the child immediately, quickly obtain a court order barring the mother from letting the child and Alleged Abuser interact, or any other number of options.
Calling the ex is not a reasonable step.
You'd be surprised what alters the courts decisions and proof is not especially needed when a woman's word is used against a man in a court room for custody purposes. ... Been there - seen it first hand, sorry epic fail and if you're fortunate its because of a lack of experience or exposure to the Family Court System.
Wow, you're incredibly wrong. Most states don't allow a judge to consider past physical abuse of the mother, because 'it's not proof that they would abuse the child'. Been there, lived it first-hand. Sorry, epic fail on your part.
The parental perspective is not for moral high ground (those who claim moral high ground are usually in a ditch proclaiming such!)...
Agreed.
...but for experience in child custody and divorce situations and what step parents may or may not do and whether they are better to ignore or act on the child's behalf as an adult if not as a biological parent.
Calling yourself a parent doesn't denote experience in child custody situations, and this man didn't act on behalf of the child, or in a way that might help secure the child from potential danger. Nice try, though.
There is already a known occurrence of violence involving the two individuals...
No, there's a known allegation. There's pretty different from a 'known occurrence'. Also, didn't you just say that you had experience in a situation where a woman made a baseless accusation about a man?
"...conviction or charges are NOT necessary when deciding on an appropriate action - he is not the law, nor should he act as if he were."
No, he should have called the law, but he didn't.
If that were my child you can bet your last dollar I'd want to be the first to know and you can be certain that I will protect my child at all costs - again the parental experience comes into play but not for moral high ground.
Your desire to know is irrelevant. Hubby #3 didn't say that he called Bio Dad because he knew Bio Dad would want to know. That would be more acceptable than his crappy 'Child Protection' excuse.
Whatever happened to community property in a marriage?
I don't think community property applies to this case, but I do think it's stupid to charge a man for reading e-mail when they would ignore reading a diary. It's laughable when you put it that way.
"Officer, arrest this man! He read my diary without my permission!"
"Lolwhut?"
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No, the 'danger' was that the mom was secretly sleeping with a man who had allegedly abused her on a previous occasion. This doesn't insinuate any level of danger or even any level of interaction between the child and the alleged abuser.
However, if there was cause for concern, calling CPS would have helped. A custody battle does not.
Wait until there was something to protect him from? See 'a' above.
If there's no interaction, there's no potential for abuse. As I stated previously, if she starts seeing or moves in with Alleged Abuser, then someone needs to call CPS so they can evaluate the household and remove the child, if they find it necessary.
Also, should he not involve some authorities until the 2nd husband has beaten the wife again?
As I stated previously, Hubby #3 should call CPS if he believes that the child may interact with someone that may be dangerous. CPS can get a court order that blocks the mom from letting the child and Alleged Abuser interact, right down to not being able to visit her son in a home where Alleged Abuser lives. Unfortunately for the child, Hubby #3 didn't do that.
Calling Bio Dad doesn't count as a protective action because it won't protect the child. Bio Dad doesn't really have any standing, and custody generally stays the same until the final determination, which can take up to a year, and usually does.
Even then, the child would still be visiting his mom and Alleged Abuser (if the mom moves in with him or starts seeing him), so he's still in 'danger'.
Actually, I doubt any authorities would do anything at all unless he beat her again, assuming no restraining order is in place.
Again, he hasn't ever been convicted of beating her, and it's obvious that she has some honesty issues, so I'm going to hold off on judging him.
c. What he did was possibly motivated by revenge. What she did was definitely motivated by revenge.
Absolutely. No way do I think that this guy should be charged. But I also don't believe that he should be lauded for his actions, because they were either:
a. motivated by revenge, or
b. stupid and unhelpful.
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No, you're thinking way too much about it.
Where is the child while his mom is banging his former stepdad?
School, friend's, relatives, babysitter? Where is any child while their parents are getting laid, seeing a movie, visiting friends, getting hair or nails done, shopping, or anything else not child-friendly?
Is he in the same room/domicile as his abusive step father? If so, he's potentially in danger.
If he's in danger, then someone needs to call CPS. A custody battle is not going to get him out of the living room of the place where his mom may or may not be having sex anytime soon, if at all. (Do you see why I don't think he was acting 'in the best interest of the child' yet?)
Regardless, if she's having an affair, I doubt she's taking the kid over there.
If not, he may be neglected and/or abandoned, which is definitely affecting her son.
Wow. So I'm neglecting my kid every time my husband and I take a nooner, huh? Good to know. I'll be sure to drag my children with me everywhere I go from now on, instead of leaving them in the care of other competent adults. Also, I've never have sex again. (That'll be good for my parenting skills, I'm sure.)
Look, parents have sex lives. Many kids don't even notice, and successfully pretend that it isn't happening. When you take that level of blissful oblivion and add in the fact that she was carrying on a clandestine affair, I doubt he knew anything about it until this happened, and maybe not even now.
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