Re: Re: I feel all retailers should be treated equally
This is one aspect of what is called the tragedy of the commons.
The tragedy of the commons applies to a shared resource. There is no such shared resource in this scenario.
DUHHHHH
So the consumers of the USA/WORLD are not a resource shared amongst all retailers (both internet and B&M)?
Well, I say they are and the sales tax not charged by out-of-state merchants constitutes a tragedy of the commons in the classical sense.
Re: Re: Sales Tax as discussed by a panel largely made up of morons!
Local businesses can only compete in the see-buy-take-home-now market. They can not compete is the see-buy-get-it-in-three-days market, so they will have to make do with the crumbs. They can compete with downloads by offering store downloads + sales tax, and thus will have to reduce their margin by the sales tax rate to get that sale on a same cost basis.
'Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, Socialism in One Country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party.[2] When used in its broadest sense, the term "Stalinist" refers to socialist states comparable to the Stalin-era Soviet Union (i.e., those characterized by a high degree of centralization, totalitarianism, the use of a secret police, propaganda, and especially brutal tactics of political coercion). According to Encyclopędia Britannica, "Stalinism is associated with a regime of terror and totalitarian rule."'
That doesn't sound like Amazon.com to me.
Stalin had a broad stifling effect on capitalism. All aspects were denied validity. Competition by brand name, quality or price was not allowed. Promotion by advertsing was not allowed. This all acted to limit product development, innovation and competition, all with no advertising. One brand of corn flakes, shoe polish, toilet paper etc. In like manner having a sole distributor has a stifling effect when items with small markets are denied a listing or charged a listing fee. Amazon approaches stalinism from the other end. What happens when Amazon is the only book seller left, online or bricks and mortar? This can happen as the Amazon monolith can easily do this. Will we then regulate Amazon as a monopoly?
Your point is fair, but the problem is forcing sales tax collection from every internet merchant would be seriously problematic, and forcing it only on a list of the biggest ones would be unfair.
Every internet merchant already collects sales tax on their state (save for those with no taxes on sales) So it is no real problem, just a small burden paid for by allowing them to keep part of what they collect
Specialty stores can prosper with unique products - which are few, and with client hand-holding - which far away internet suppliers are unable to easily supply(if they hire local hand holders = presence = sales taxes)
So no problem there, right?
As for Stalinism = central distributionism with excess power in one supplier.
From Wikipedia:
'Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, Socialism in One Country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party.[2] When used in its broadest sense, the term "Stalinist" refers to socialist states comparable to the Stalin-era Soviet Union (i.e., those characterized by a high degree of centralization, totalitarianism, the use of a secret police, propaganda, and especially brutal tactics of political coercion). According to Encyclopędia Britannica, "Stalinism is associated with a regime of terror and totalitarian rule."'
Back when internet sales were small, the sales tax was a minor problem, but now it has become a major loss to the states as well as the retail businesses.
It's not a loss to the states. Failure to tax something that was never taxed is not a loss. And yes, local businesses are losing some revenue, but the government ought not to step in and level the field every time someone starts losing money. That would be a disaster, and completely anti-free market./
Are you blind? As retail sales that were taxed at retail within a state move to out-of-state internet sale there is indeed a loss of taxes/
Your point is fair, but the problem is forcing sales tax collection from every internet merchant would be seriously problematic, and forcing it only on a list of the biggest ones would be unfair.
Specialty stores can prosper with unique products - which are few, and with client hand-holding - which far away internet suppliers are unable to easily supply(if they hire local hand holders = presence = sales taxes)
So no problem there, right?
As for Stalinism = central distributionism with excess power in one supplier.
From Wikipedia:
'Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, Socialism in One Country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party.[2] When used in its broadest sense, the term "Stalinist" refers to socialist states comparable to the Stalin-era Soviet Union (i.e., those characterized by a high degree of centralization, totalitarianism, the use of a secret police, propaganda, and especially brutal tactics of political coercion). According to Encyclopędia Britannica, "Stalinism is associated with a regime of terror and totalitarian rule."'
In most subjects the material taught is a mature matter and one would expect a text book to be generic and have a life of at least 10 years. It is well within the capability of the colleges to agree to a set of standards for each subject and commission the creation of a digital text, with annual added updates each year - as needed, with a major rewrite every 10 years.
Why will they not do this? They are in cahoots with the publishers via the sales at college book stores which have a 35% locked in markup. Some colleges insist that each student show a receipt for the purchase of the mandated course book as a condition to attend classes and even graduate. How can 4 students shares a $250 book with that situation. Students can not even use the library copy - they must buy one. In addition, profs often sell books they print locally to the students at high margins on trapped fish.
I am in favor of efficiency, but I also am in favor of equality of competition.
Why should trade between states escape sales taxes any more than trade between countries escapes duties?
Back when internet sales were small, the sales tax was a minor problem, but now it has become a major loss to the states as well as the retail businesses.
Specialty stores can prosper with unique products - which are few, and with client hand-holding - which far away internet suppliers are unable to easily supply(if they hire local hand holders = presence = sales taxes)
As for Stalinism = central distributionism with excess power in one supplier. In the USSR there was one brand of toilet paper - scratchy. With excess centralization, products can fall below a threshold of sales and not be worth distribution, much like orphan vaccines and other medical products.
bulk freight to retailers plus sales tax to the customer versus individual out of state shipping to the customer with no sales tax is one form of levelling, but it depends on weight. Costly items, like $300 CPUs only cost $1-2 for freight, but have sales taxes of $20 - so people buy online to save the $18, and the retailer suffers a decline in sales. Few people buy coal shipped via UPS, freight is the killer there.
This is one aspect of what is called the tragedy of the commons. Google it.
People see their own ends and motives ahead of those of others
""I guess if they start taxing on the Internet, I will stop ordering on the Internet. May as well go to the store and
buy and pay the taxes there.""
The balance had shifted to large internet companies, and what better way to balance the playing field.
I remember Stalin, when asked why Americans had stores full of plentiful goods, and the stores in the USSR were empty, replied that Americans were so poor they were unable to enter the stores and buy good, but the Russians were so wealthy that they all the goods had sold out.
I see a similar Stalinist mindset in you.
The truth is we will all balance price, availability, delivery, warranty and taxes and each will vote with their feet and wallet.
Right now many stores are dying after showing a product to a person, who then goes and buys it online to save taxes etc. Do we want local shops? If not, what will those people do? All work for UPS or ??.
An economy is a complex system of purchase and distribution of goods and services and a balance needs to be struck as we change from one form to another.
A reasonable tax for a reasonable government is good enough for me. Right now the USA has too many fat cats in the various government services for a good economy, only the fat cats can survive these days. Yes, I mean the unions and their pensions and bosses that are breaking the USA just like they broke Greece and Italy etc.
Re: Retailers COLLECT sales tax - they do not pay it!
In man states there are added township and city taxes, who get to add a little to the state sales tax. What this means is there are thousands of sales tax jurisdictions in the USA, not just one per state that levies sales taxes.
Anon I addition to EZK's points, someone else also mentioned a big issue that these online tax table solutions don't address: If I live in Michigan, buy from a company in Texas, which ships the product out of Indiana, to my gift recipient in New Mexico, which tax rate applies?
Currently, where the goods end up is the state that gets the taxes - if it can find out who shipped what to whome. Under the 33% plan, the place it was physicallt shipped from gets 33% and the place it was shipped to gets 33% and the Feds get 33%.
RE SailingCyclops
"I agree with everything you have said! What I don't understand is how any federal statute, allowing states to collect out-of-state sales taxes, can possibly be enforced. It seems impossible on it's face."
What is needed is a sales tax treaty between the feds and each state that wants to sign up for the 33% of the 6% sales tax.
On the face of it, high sales tax states would lose - but they actually win, because they keep all taxes on their own sales with the state and in addition, get 2% of whatever is shipped into the state and what is shipped out of the state.
States with no sales tax, can waive their 2%.
I think a scheme like this is the only way.
Bengie, Shipped from Indiana to Michigan. Those 2 states and the feds each get 33% of the 6% sales tax. Now if you drive to Michigan and carry it home to NY, then you owe NY sales tax in addition to the 6%. Better if you ship to NY.
I feel the it is in the interest of the states and the feds to adopt my plan, as it solves all the problems.
NY can not force an out-of-state seller to collect NY state sales taxes on sales to NY residents unless the seller has a physical presence in NY.
States have tried to say that an affiliate marketing arrangement, like Amazon has with many people, is a physical presence and Amazon must collect and remit. So Amazon turfs those affiliates.
NY can enforce sales tax collection from any NY buyer - if they know who they are. Sellers never reveal this. NY has chased a number of people who dodged sales taxes on high ticket items if they find out about them from insurance records etc. (say you have a fire, and your $10,000 big screen TV burns up, and you make an insurance claim, then NY will ask for the details of the acquisition of this TV and get you if you had it shipped in from NJ, and so on. Small stuff escapes this net)
It seems to me that the easy way to solve this is to impose a shared interstate tax or VAT - call it what you like.
Give 33.33% to each of the shipping state, the shipped to state and the feds.
That way states would get a bite of anything shipped out(now they get nothing) and a bite of anything shipped in (now they get a bit of this - if they can find the people) and the feds get a bite. If it is pegged at 6% in total = 2% each.
This would end this wrangle for good in a rational way. Internal states sales taxes would not be affected.
It seems obvious that free trade can only operate between equals - countries whose people are paid about the same. With China, (their wage rate is under 10% of the USA wage rate. Fast container freight has made shipping less costly and eliminated theft as a major cost factor) - free trade is self destructive. There needs to be a wage factor = an offsetting duty rate to make this play field more or less level.
As you can see, once China has all the high tech fabrication machines, and low cost labor, and cheap freight - why make anything at all in the USA, UK, Europe?
It looks like the authors guild wants to block google and amazon and anyone but them by offering a badder deal - only a 20% royalty, coupled with a print on demand process that will rack the price up to the point where the market is extinguished.
It resembles the little boy with a lemonade stand and a sign
LEMONADe $1,000,000, face full of grins - all I have to do is sell one....
This so called authors guild deserves nothing but ashes and dust.
Those that cling to the old ways, like Salamanca, will die the death of 1000 buggy whips and feel the pricks of 1000 elephant goads - they will not feel the flood of new cash from new buyers.
The truth is:- if Salamanca got 100,000 e-book sales and made 25 cents on each one he would do a great deal better than $10 per book on zero sales.
If he wants obscurity, he is making a down payment on it.
In Canada we still have a tariffed service that was designed for home and business alarms. They call it dry DSL, over a burglar alarm line you rent from the telco and your DSP provider equips it at your house and their office with DSL modems. I have had it for three year now, works fine, place is called http://teksavvy.com/en/
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Re: Re: I feel all retailers should be treated equally
The tragedy of the commons applies to a shared resource. There is no such shared resource in this scenario.
DUHHHHH
So the consumers of the USA/WORLD are not a resource shared amongst all retailers (both internet and B&M)?
Well, I say they are and the sales tax not charged by out-of-state merchants constitutes a tragedy of the commons in the classical sense.
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Re: Re: Sales Tax as discussed by a panel largely made up of morons!
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: internet taxation
'Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, Socialism in One Country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party.[2] When used in its broadest sense, the term "Stalinist" refers to socialist states comparable to the Stalin-era Soviet Union (i.e., those characterized by a high degree of centralization, totalitarianism, the use of a secret police, propaganda, and especially brutal tactics of political coercion). According to Encyclopędia Britannica, "Stalinism is associated with a regime of terror and totalitarian rule."'
That doesn't sound like Amazon.com to me.
Stalin had a broad stifling effect on capitalism. All aspects were denied validity. Competition by brand name, quality or price was not allowed. Promotion by advertsing was not allowed. This all acted to limit product development, innovation and competition, all with no advertising. One brand of corn flakes, shoe polish, toilet paper etc. In like manner having a sole distributor has a stifling effect when items with small markets are denied a listing or charged a listing fee. Amazon approaches stalinism from the other end. What happens when Amazon is the only book seller left, online or bricks and mortar? This can happen as the Amazon monolith can easily do this. Will we then regulate Amazon as a monopoly?
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Re: Re: Re: Re: internet taxation
Every internet merchant already collects sales tax on their state (save for those with no taxes on sales) So it is no real problem, just a small burden paid for by allowing them to keep part of what they collect
Specialty stores can prosper with unique products - which are few, and with client hand-holding - which far away internet suppliers are unable to easily supply(if they hire local hand holders = presence = sales taxes)
So no problem there, right?
As for Stalinism = central distributionism with excess power in one supplier.
From Wikipedia:
'Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, Socialism in One Country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party.[2] When used in its broadest sense, the term "Stalinist" refers to socialist states comparable to the Stalin-era Soviet Union (i.e., those characterized by a high degree of centralization, totalitarianism, the use of a secret police, propaganda, and especially brutal tactics of political coercion). According to Encyclopędia Britannica, "Stalinism is associated with a regime of terror and totalitarian rule."'
That doesn't sound like Amazon.com to me.
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Re: Re: Re: Re: internet taxation
It's not a loss to the states. Failure to tax something that was never taxed is not a loss. And yes, local businesses are losing some revenue, but the government ought not to step in and level the field every time someone starts losing money. That would be a disaster, and completely anti-free market./
Are you blind? As retail sales that were taxed at retail within a state move to out-of-state internet sale there is indeed a loss of taxes/
Your point is fair, but the problem is forcing sales tax collection from every internet merchant would be seriously problematic, and forcing it only on a list of the biggest ones would be unfair.
Specialty stores can prosper with unique products - which are few, and with client hand-holding - which far away internet suppliers are unable to easily supply(if they hire local hand holders = presence = sales taxes)
So no problem there, right?
As for Stalinism = central distributionism with excess power in one supplier.
From Wikipedia:
'Stalinist policies in the Soviet Union included: rapid industrialization, Socialism in One Country, a centralized state, collectivization of agriculture, and subordination of interests of other communist parties to those of the Soviet party.[2] When used in its broadest sense, the term "Stalinist" refers to socialist states comparable to the Stalin-era Soviet Union (i.e., those characterized by a high degree of centralization, totalitarianism, the use of a secret police, propaganda, and especially brutal tactics of political coercion). According to Encyclopędia Britannica, "Stalinism is associated with a regime of terror and totalitarian rule."'
That doesn't sound like Amazon.com to me.
On the post: Washington State Guarantees Cheap And Open Courses & Courseware For Students
Student Books
Why will they not do this? They are in cahoots with the publishers via the sales at college book stores which have a 35% locked in markup. Some colleges insist that each student show a receipt for the purchase of the mandated course book as a condition to attend classes and even graduate. How can 4 students shares a $250 book with that situation. Students can not even use the library copy - they must buy one. In addition, profs often sell books they print locally to the students at high margins on trapped fish.
Open it all up
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Re: Re: internet taxation
Why should trade between states escape sales taxes any more than trade between countries escapes duties?
Back when internet sales were small, the sales tax was a minor problem, but now it has become a major loss to the states as well as the retail businesses.
Specialty stores can prosper with unique products - which are few, and with client hand-holding - which far away internet suppliers are unable to easily supply(if they hire local hand holders = presence = sales taxes)
As for Stalinism = central distributionism with excess power in one supplier. In the USSR there was one brand of toilet paper - scratchy. With excess centralization, products can fall below a threshold of sales and not be worth distribution, much like orphan vaccines and other medical products.
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
I feel all retailers should be treated equally
This is one aspect of what is called the tragedy of the commons. Google it.
People see their own ends and motives ahead of those of others
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
No tax on internet purchases
Let them eat cake?
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
internet taxation
""I guess if they start taxing on the Internet, I will stop ordering on the Internet. May as well go to the store and
buy and pay the taxes there.""
The balance had shifted to large internet companies, and what better way to balance the playing field.
I remember Stalin, when asked why Americans had stores full of plentiful goods, and the stores in the USSR were empty, replied that Americans were so poor they were unable to enter the stores and buy good, but the Russians were so wealthy that they all the goods had sold out.
I see a similar Stalinist mindset in you.
The truth is we will all balance price, availability, delivery, warranty and taxes and each will vote with their feet and wallet.
Right now many stores are dying after showing a product to a person, who then goes and buys it online to save taxes etc. Do we want local shops? If not, what will those people do? All work for UPS or ??.
An economy is a complex system of purchase and distribution of goods and services and a balance needs to be struck as we change from one form to another.
A reasonable tax for a reasonable government is good enough for me. Right now the USA has too many fat cats in the various government services for a good economy, only the fat cats can survive these days. Yes, I mean the unions and their pensions and bosses that are breaking the USA just like they broke Greece and Italy etc.
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Re: Retailers COLLECT sales tax - they do not pay it!
From goole, see this.
http://zip2tax.com/
there are lots more.
the 33% plan is just a way to impose a more or less level playing field compared to local sellers
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Currently, where the goods end up is the state that gets the taxes - if it can find out who shipped what to whome. Under the 33% plan, the place it was physicallt shipped from gets 33% and the place it was shipped to gets 33% and the Feds get 33%.
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
sales tax methodism
"I agree with everything you have said! What I don't understand is how any federal statute, allowing states to collect out-of-state sales taxes, can possibly be enforced. It seems impossible on it's face."
What is needed is a sales tax treaty between the feds and each state that wants to sign up for the 33% of the 6% sales tax.
On the face of it, high sales tax states would lose - but they actually win, because they keep all taxes on their own sales with the state and in addition, get 2% of whatever is shipped into the state and what is shipped out of the state.
States with no sales tax, can waive their 2%.
I think a scheme like this is the only way.
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
I feel the it is in the interest of the states and the feds to adopt my plan, as it solves all the problems.
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Jurisdiction
States have tried to say that an affiliate marketing arrangement, like Amazon has with many people, is a physical presence and Amazon must collect and remit. So Amazon turfs those affiliates.
NY can enforce sales tax collection from any NY buyer - if they know who they are. Sellers never reveal this. NY has chased a number of people who dodged sales taxes on high ticket items if they find out about them from insurance records etc. (say you have a fire, and your $10,000 big screen TV burns up, and you make an insurance claim, then NY will ask for the details of the acquisition of this TV and get you if you had it shipped in from NJ, and so on. Small stuff escapes this net)
On the post: The Coming Fight Over Sales Tax For Online Retailers
Interstate taxation
Give 33.33% to each of the shipping state, the shipped to state and the feds.
That way states would get a bite of anything shipped out(now they get nothing) and a bite of anything shipped in (now they get a bit of this - if they can find the people) and the feds get a bite. If it is pegged at 6% in total = 2% each.
This would end this wrangle for good in a rational way. Internal states sales taxes would not be affected.
On the post: Will Anti-Free Trade Protectionist Agreements Be Bad For US Citizens Too?
Free Trade
As you can see, once China has all the high tech fabrication machines, and low cost labor, and cheap freight - why make anything at all in the USA, UK, Europe?
On the post: Unfortunate: Novelist Joins Lawsuit Against Libraries; Would Apparently Prefer His Book Rot In Obscurity
Axe to Grind
It resembles the little boy with a lemonade stand and a sign
LEMONADe $1,000,000, face full of grins - all I have to do is sell one....
This so called authors guild deserves nothing but ashes and dust.
On the post: Unfortunate: Novelist Joins Lawsuit Against Libraries; Would Apparently Prefer His Book Rot In Obscurity
Traditional Publishers model
The truth is:- if Salamanca got 100,000 e-book sales and made 25 cents on each one he would do a great deal better than $10 per book on zero sales.
If he wants obscurity, he is making a down payment on it.
On the post: Time Warner Cable CEO Remains In Denial About Cord Cutting
Re: What do they care?
I use a cell phone.
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