"it seems like the only viable option for getting the report out to the world is to have outgoing Senator Mark Udall release it himself on the floor of the Senate."
This would be truly amazing! .. If nothing was redacted.
Owned for desertion and he's a skull and bones shill.
We tortured people (not just folks). We created new "terrorists" in the process, and now we are facing a very dedicated, religiously charged group of angry people who want revenge. The 2 party system in the US has been dead for decades ....
We also killed this innocent 16 year old American Citizen with the President's "autopen":
Abdulrahman al-Awlaki
with drones and hellfire missiles in a country we are not officially at war with ... ordered by the President himself.
How many non-Americans are killed by this complicit President every day? Very few will ever know.
"In another thread, a quick calculation (without much benefit of the doubt) yielded 1 error query in every 10,000 by NSA query analysts. This includes typos."
Each one of those minuscule errors equates to violations of many, possibly thousands (or more) of people's civil rights.
Those "errors" are crimes against the People.
"What is your error rate at work? And does the buck stop with you?"
I never asked for perfection from Barack Obama or Congressional members, just for them to tell the truth and to actually keep their own word and their oaths of office. Which has not in any way happened in regard to National Security and civil rights for 5 years.
"BTW, what would you do today if you were President? Hope you are willing to take responsibility for terrorist attacks that happen afterward."
You mean terrorist attacks like the Boston Marathon Bombing? The NSA did not stop that attack, nor did anyone in this government even bother to act on the intelligence passed along to them (for free!) by Russian authorities.
If I were President, I would not give my word to act on an issue and reverse my position without even discussing it publicly with some meaningful debate. Obama was in France when he signed the latest, expanded and far more draconian version of the PATRIOT Act with the autopen.
"Weighted against what at this point is mostly the fear of big brother watching are lives."
You obviously don't value your former civil rights at all. Perhaps you feel more comfortable having someone look over your shoulder and read your private communications with impunity. That's fine. There are many ways to give up your civil rights for a false security state and a tiny paycheck. One way would be to join the US military, or go to any US jail (indefinitely, without charges filed, with no due process, habeas corpus or phone call to your mom, which is all now legal thanks to Barack Obama and his pen). If you're lucky and you fit the "profile", you may get to see some really exotic places, like Guantanamo (yep still open after 5 years). I hear water boarding is awesome fun!
"Anyway, let me know if you would try to close down these 2 programs (meta data and prism) after you have thought about it hopefully for at least 20 minutes or so to consider the consequences all around you. .. And then we can sit here and blame Obama for 5 years of failures."
I've been thinking and acting in regard to these illegal, unconstitutional programs for over a decade. If I were President, I would shut them all the way down today, permanently. The NSA has been illegally collecting data on US Citizens for much longer than just since 9/11. They had some of the same capabilities in place prior to 9/11. Where was the NSA for 9/11, or the Anthrax scare that enabled an absentee US Congress to pass the PATRIOT Act without reading it, or the USS Cole, or the WTC Bombing in 1993, countless US Embassy attacks etc etc? All were great opportunities for them to show their might. Didn't happen.
"Congress intelligence committees have found no willful violation of the law or intent of the law."
Congressional Intelligence Committees make massive amounts of personal money being "yes men" (or women in the case of Dianne Feinstein or Nancy Pelosi et al.) for the NSA. They essentially offer NSA / Defense Contractor puppet oversight to a puppet, rubber stamp, kangaroo court that has granted 99% plus of requests for queries against the data accumulated by these illegal programs.
Without the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights intact, there is no "United States" to keep safe. There is no place in a real democracy for a secret police state in any form.
"But go ahead as President and sabotage the program because you are skeptical of big government."
I am not skeptical of "big government". It is obvious to many of us, that this gigantic, ridiculous, disjointed, divided, propagandized government doesn't work in any way whatsoever. There is no accountability, integrity, respect, transparency or "hope" to be seen or heard.
This is my last post on this dead end thread, have a great life and keep on dreaming the impossible dream.
Obama: “We should be skeptical about the potential encroachments on privacy. None of the revelations show that we have abused these powers, but they’re pretty significant powers,” Obama said."
"What I can say unequivocally is that if you are a U.S. person, the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls, and the NSA cannot target your emails … and have not," Obama said
NYT: "A federal judge sharply rebuked the National Security Agency in 2011 for gathering and storing tens of thousands of Americans’ e-mails each year as it hunted for terrorists and other legitimate foreign targets, according to the top secret court ruling, which was made public on Wednesday."
Ignorance? He should probably just stop talking about National Security all together.
I do still think he is only partially at fault. He is in charge and so therefore the buck stops with him for now. When the next person takes office, they will carry the same burden.
Obama: "And what I continue to believe is that ultimately the buck stops with me. I'm going to be accountable. I think people understand that a lot of these problems were decades in the making."
He is willing to take responsibility for all of these wrongs, and I after nearly 5 years of disappointment am willing to give it all to him.
I absolutely remember the yellow cake debacle and the mysterious Anthrax scare that allowed Congress to pass the PATRIOT Act while hiding in their home states without even bothering to read it first.
Unfortunately, rather than take a stand against these recent renewals, they were expanded and signed into law again (by his hand). One of the reasons I voted for Obama the first time was to see these wrongs addressed in regard to the PATRIOT and FISA Acts. What I've seen instead is a full reversal of his opinion and now complete support for what is currently being done. I understand the challenges that are involved for a new President. Obama is not a new president now. It took GW Bush less than 2 years to unravel 300 plus years of US tradition regarding Habeas Corpus, due process, illegal search and seizure, executive power, reasonable rights to privacy, free speech and peaceful assembly et al. Now rather than take a definitive stand to reverse this damage, this President is increasing the divide between the US Government and the People who supposedly own it. He had a real chance to (veto) reign in both of these laws and absolutely chose not to. If he considers the FISA / FISC court and their puppet congressional intelligence committee counterparts a real effort for transparency, he is truly living in his own fantasy land (ignorance). The spirit and letter of the PATRIOT Act is being bent further than ever right now as I type this comment.
So what do we do now? Are we going to wait and see if he wakes up and takes a stand? I doubt that will do any good at all.
"WASHINGTON — Minutes before a midnight deadline, President Barack Obama signed into law a four-year extension of post-Sept. 11 powers to search records and conduct roving wiretaps in pursuit of terrorists.
"It's an important tool for us to continue dealing with an ongoing terrorist threat," Obama said Friday after a meeting with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
With Obama in France, the White House said the president used an autopen machine that holds a pen and signs his actual signature. It is only used with proper authorization of the president." Ref: http://tinyurl.com/3j4x67f
Although Obama is by no means solely responsible for the original assembly of these NSA programs or the laws that have enabled them, he has chosen not to bring the last administration to justice or fulfill his campaign promises of fixing or removing the PATRIOT and FISA Acts eg.
"Illinois Now Questionnaire For Senator Barack Obama September 10, 2003:
Q: "Would you vote to repeal the U.S. Patriot Act?"
A: "Yes, I would vote to repeal the U.S. Patriot Act, although I would consider replacing that shoddy and dangerous law with a new, carefully crafted proposal that addressed in a much more limited fashion the legitimate needs of law enforcement in combating terrorism (for example, permitting a warrant for the interception of cell phone calls, and not just land-based phones, to accommodate changes in technology)."
Blaming Obama for all the things we have let go wrong in the US is ridiculous. Continuing to apologize for him is also not productive in any way.
"What amazes me in all of these discussions concerning the defenders of such surveillance is that they never even seem able to comprehend the psychological impact of what all of this does. The way people change their behavior when they're being watched constantly, and what that can do to a person."
The primary parties responsible for the creation of these illegal programs know precisely the impact on the psyche of the people being watched. "Strategy "in fact, is a big part of their business. There are no innocent watchers. People who spy for a living may act the part of the dutiful civil servant, but deep in their dark human hearts, they enjoy their positions and remain for that reason alone. The money they get paid is not all that great and jobs in the intelligence field are not hard to come by when you have clearances. You give up all of your privacy in order to get some of those "credentials", and if you're already in the military, you have no real right to privacy.
As for the hideous politicians who have made this all possible, they are narcissistic scum who will stop at nothing to take every little measly piece they can get before they die or lose office for their ills. The House and Senate intelligence committee chairs are at the top of that list.
Techdirt has not posted any stories submitted by Dwight Neller.
(untitled comment)
This would be truly amazing! .. If nothing was redacted.
Re:
(untitled comment)
Owned for desertion and he's a skull and bones shill.
We tortured people (not just folks). We created new "terrorists" in the process, and now we are facing a very dedicated, religiously charged group of angry people who want revenge. The 2 party system in the US has been dead for decades ....
We also killed this innocent 16 year old American Citizen with the President's "autopen":
Abdulrahman al-Awlaki
with drones and hellfire missiles in a country we are not officially at war with ... ordered by the President himself.
How many non-Americans are killed by this complicit President every day? Very few will ever know.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NSA - obama
Each one of those minuscule errors equates to violations of many, possibly thousands (or more) of people's civil rights.
Those "errors" are crimes against the People.
"What is your error rate at work? And does the buck stop with you?"
I never asked for perfection from Barack Obama or Congressional members, just for them to tell the truth and to actually keep their own word and their oaths of office. Which has not in any way happened in regard to National Security and civil rights for 5 years.
"BTW, what would you do today if you were President? Hope you are willing to take responsibility for terrorist attacks that happen afterward."
You mean terrorist attacks like the Boston Marathon Bombing? The NSA did not stop that attack, nor did anyone in this government even bother to act on the intelligence passed along to them (for free!) by Russian authorities.
If I were President, I would not give my word to act on an issue and reverse my position without even discussing it publicly with some meaningful debate. Obama was in France when he signed the latest, expanded and far more draconian version of the PATRIOT Act with the autopen.
"Weighted against what at this point is mostly the fear of big brother watching are lives."
You obviously don't value your former civil rights at all. Perhaps you feel more comfortable having someone look over your shoulder and read your private communications with impunity. That's fine. There are many ways to give up your civil rights for a false security state and a tiny paycheck. One way would be to join the US military, or go to any US jail (indefinitely, without charges filed, with no due process, habeas corpus or phone call to your mom, which is all now legal thanks to Barack Obama and his pen). If you're lucky and you fit the "profile", you may get to see some really exotic places, like Guantanamo (yep still open after 5 years). I hear water boarding is awesome fun!
"Anyway, let me know if you would try to close down these 2 programs (meta data and prism) after you have thought about it hopefully for at least 20 minutes or so to consider the consequences all around you. .. And then we can sit here and blame Obama for 5 years of failures."
I've been thinking and acting in regard to these illegal, unconstitutional programs for over a decade. If I were President, I would shut them all the way down today, permanently. The NSA has been illegally collecting data on US Citizens for much longer than just since 9/11. They had some of the same capabilities in place prior to 9/11. Where was the NSA for 9/11, or the Anthrax scare that enabled an absentee US Congress to pass the PATRIOT Act without reading it, or the USS Cole, or the WTC Bombing in 1993, countless US Embassy attacks etc etc? All were great opportunities for them to show their might. Didn't happen.
"Congress intelligence committees have found no willful violation of the law or intent of the law."
Congressional Intelligence Committees make massive amounts of personal money being "yes men" (or women in the case of Dianne Feinstein or Nancy Pelosi et al.) for the NSA. They essentially offer NSA / Defense Contractor puppet oversight to a puppet, rubber stamp, kangaroo court that has granted 99% plus of requests for queries against the data accumulated by these illegal programs.
Without the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights intact, there is no "United States" to keep safe. There is no place in a real democracy for a secret police state in any form.
"But go ahead as President and sabotage the program because you are skeptical of big government."
I am not skeptical of "big government". It is obvious to many of us, that this gigantic, ridiculous, disjointed, divided, propagandized government doesn't work in any way whatsoever. There is no accountability, integrity, respect, transparency or "hope" to be seen or heard.
This is my last post on this dead end thread, have a great life and keep on dreaming the impossible dream.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: NSA - obama
"What I can say unequivocally is that if you are a U.S. person, the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls, and the NSA cannot target your emails … and have not," Obama said
NYT: "A federal judge sharply rebuked the National Security Agency in 2011 for gathering and storing tens of thousands of Americans’ e-mails each year as it hunted for terrorists and other legitimate foreign targets, according to the top secret court ruling, which was made public on Wednesday."
Ignorance? He should probably just stop talking about National Security all together.
I do still think he is only partially at fault. He is in charge and so therefore the buck stops with him for now. When the next person takes office, they will carry the same burden.
Obama: "And what I continue to believe is that ultimately the buck stops with me. I'm going to be accountable. I think people understand that a lot of these problems were decades in the making."
He is willing to take responsibility for all of these wrongs, and I after nearly 5 years of disappointment am willing to give it all to him.
Re: Re: Re: NSA - obama
Unfortunately, rather than take a stand against these recent renewals, they were expanded and signed into law again (by his hand). One of the reasons I voted for Obama the first time was to see these wrongs addressed in regard to the PATRIOT and FISA Acts. What I've seen instead is a full reversal of his opinion and now complete support for what is currently being done. I understand the challenges that are involved for a new President. Obama is not a new president now. It took GW Bush less than 2 years to unravel 300 plus years of US tradition regarding Habeas Corpus, due process, illegal search and seizure, executive power, reasonable rights to privacy, free speech and peaceful assembly et al. Now rather than take a definitive stand to reverse this damage, this President is increasing the divide between the US Government and the People who supposedly own it. He had a real chance to (veto) reign in both of these laws and absolutely chose not to. If he considers the FISA / FISC court and their puppet congressional intelligence committee counterparts a real effort for transparency, he is truly living in his own fantasy land (ignorance). The spirit and letter of the PATRIOT Act is being bent further than ever right now as I type this comment.
So what do we do now? Are we going to wait and see if he wakes up and takes a stand? I doubt that will do any good at all.
"WASHINGTON — Minutes before a midnight deadline, President Barack Obama signed into law a four-year extension of post-Sept. 11 powers to search records and conduct roving wiretaps in pursuit of terrorists.
"It's an important tool for us to continue dealing with an ongoing terrorist threat," Obama said Friday after a meeting with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
With Obama in France, the White House said the president used an autopen machine that holds a pen and signs his actual signature. It is only used with proper authorization of the president." Ref: http://tinyurl.com/3j4x67f
Re: NSA - obama
Although Obama is by no means solely responsible for the original assembly of these NSA programs or the laws that have enabled them, he has chosen not to bring the last administration to justice or fulfill his campaign promises of fixing or removing the PATRIOT and FISA Acts eg.
"Illinois Now Questionnaire For Senator Barack Obama September 10, 2003:
Q: "Would you vote to repeal the U.S. Patriot Act?"
A: "Yes, I would vote to repeal the U.S. Patriot Act, although I would consider replacing that shoddy and dangerous law with a new, carefully crafted proposal that addressed in a much more limited fashion the legitimate needs of law enforcement in combating terrorism (for example, permitting a warrant for the interception of cell phone calls, and not just land-based phones, to accommodate changes in technology)."
Blaming Obama for all the things we have let go wrong in the US is ridiculous. Continuing to apologize for him is also not productive in any way.
The innocence of watchers.
The primary parties responsible for the creation of these illegal programs know precisely the impact on the psyche of the people being watched. "Strategy "in fact, is a big part of their business. There are no innocent watchers. People who spy for a living may act the part of the dutiful civil servant, but deep in their dark human hearts, they enjoy their positions and remain for that reason alone. The money they get paid is not all that great and jobs in the intelligence field are not hard to come by when you have clearances. You give up all of your privacy in order to get some of those "credentials", and if you're already in the military, you have no real right to privacy.
As for the hideous politicians who have made this all possible, they are narcissistic scum who will stop at nothing to take every little measly piece they can get before they die or lose office for their ills. The House and Senate intelligence committee chairs are at the top of that list.
Techdirt has not posted any stories submitted by Dwight Neller.
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