Under 3000 sq feet YES, in the kitchen, definately, and usually if it's an alternative station. However, a single-user XM/Siirius account does NOT give you the right to play it. Nor does Pandora OR any of the other streaming stations, free or commercial.
I know of a resturant that got caught lying using a 14 buck a month XM account (The Folk Channel or whatever it was called) on their main PA system. )
Their Business Accounts:
Customer Service: 1-866-596-7040
Sales: 1-866-596-7044
Starting at $29.95 a month..Here's Siirius/XM's disclaimer however...
Don't hassle with royalties, we take care of it for you
As a service to our customer we take care of royalty fees for legal play Including ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. Other commercial music license fees paid for most establishments unless you operate an establishment that charges an admission or membership fee (e.g. a theme park, skating rink, dance club, health club, etc.) or uses music sources other than a receiver not provided by our company (e.g. CDs, DJs, live music, terrestrial radio, etc.). We provide our customers with all of the necessary licensing with all of our business music packages to the following licensing companies.
BMI...Ascap.....Sesac...
This rube in South Carolina didn't want to pay an extra 15 bux a month for his XM". NOW because he 1)Lied 2)Now says he just REFUSES to acknowledge BMI's authority, he's facing a suit (and knowing this cretin', the same one who gives beer to DRUNKEN So-called musicians in exchange for actual compensation to talent.)I hope they make an F'n EXAMPLE oh his a** so those "used to getting a free lunch" realize the value of MUSIC to their business and voluntarily call the licensing services and start being "legal"..
Sometimes you gotta' step on toes..Some people though, you gotta' step on their NECKS...
"It's not the same. A business is giving people free wifi to give their CUSTOMERS a service while they are in the store. If some douchebags decide to just sit outside the store and not buy anything while having an all day WOW raid, then the business has every right to ask them to leave or pursue civil fines if those people refuse to leave. It's not that hard...if you are at a coffee shop that offers free wifi, do the right thing and throw them a few bucks for a drink."
AND most do charge a one-drink (like a dollar cup of coffee) pay to hang...AND to keep snot-nosed teens from bothering collegiate and older paying patrons, require them to atleast buy a refill every four hours or so.
Here's the problem of this discussion..FREE WI-FI is Not licensed...MUSIC IS..SO those trying to sidestep the issue of PAYING the fees for music need to STOP their BULL-SHIT and stick with the discussion at hand..
SO far, I've heard nothing from the pro-thievery crowd to nullify the standing agreements that have been in effect since ATLEAST 1917...Performers have the right to copyright and ANYONE useing their work, has the OBLIGATION to pay for it..
AND for the nimrod that tried to make this into a Libertarian issue accusing government intervention in the free-market, let me say that in South Carolina, and particularily with Ms Nicki Shindawa Hailey, our "goober-nish", she herself INTERVENED in the Boeing vs Mechanics Union...ON-THE-SIDE of BUSINESS when it is CLEAR, this was between the workers and the company..Her action then spawned the action where the NLRB came down on her ass and BOEING (which in sworn confidential and proven documents came to South Carolina to ESCAPE a BINDING ARBITRATED agreement) for basically picking "the winner"..
The courts are government BUT remember the "blind lady" holding the balance?. That's where the plantiff and defendant work-it-all out..
AND it's no wonder that political ignoramous' like Nicky "It's a Great Day in South Carolina" Hailey try to pervert law in favor of political interests..
To conclude and STAY FOCUSED the REAL issue once more..You have public performances of film and/or music in your PLACE of BUSINESS, you are REQUIRED.....TO.....LICENSE!!
Side Note:..One of the big issues that BMI is attacking now, PER, the musician's REQUEST, is to investigate "Gentleman's Clubs" IE "Titty and Nudie Bars", to see if music is being misused by the dancers WHO as Independent Contractors for the most part, are required to license AND seek PERMISSION as well..Alot of country artists do not want their songs used in a "nasty way"..Rocker's?. No problem for the most part.
I know that strikes some of you Southern "IF I ain't cheatin' I ain't smart" Dunderheads as UNFAIR to the poor titty dancer, BUT "BY Permission" means what it MEANS!..
AND no, the idea that "It's easier to ask for FORGIVENESS than ask for permission doesn't apply at ALL here so get that OUT of your punkin' head NOW!"
now get this all of you mostly Southern Dunderheads that getting something without paying for it is being SMART, NOT stealin',
Usually, the "cut-off" is 3000 total sq footage for the next level BUT that doesn't let the 10 x 60 foot coffee shop get by paying nothing. AND that's just BMI..
In South Carolina, the most ANTI-UNION, one-sided contract state in the UNION, the SC Resturant Association and its members PARTNER with BMI to offer vendor discounts, and all sorts of neat perks where if taken advantage of, takes care of almost the entire amount of the basic yearly licensing fee. Which is around 335-ish less 10 per cent if paid in full LESS another 10 per cent for being a member of the above organization IF you have an average of one to two shows a week in up to a 200 seat venue.
SO, if you've can't pay LESS than a dollar-a-day each month you have live music, you've got some REAL cash-flow probs already. BUT going back to the "Dixie Don't Pay" attitude, it's usually the BIG resturants who claim (Put on your BEST Foghorn Leghorn accent now)..
"I've NEVAH he'rd of NO B...M....I...SO it doesn't exist and I's RE-FUZE to pay no carpet baggin' SKA-LA-WAG from Yahn-Kee'Ville"..
Uh...The music services are now based out of Nashville btw,.
"esides I don't understand why people should get paid for past works when nobody else gets paid that way."
If it's never performed again, NO, no residuals/royalties.
It's like syndicated television though..The studios SIGNED a contract to pay actors, directors, etc. EVERYTIME their work is displayed..Without it, they'd be NO new television NO new music. NO nothing..
Sounds like another deadbeat wanting something for nothing.
College stations pay a non-comm/edu rate to the licensing agencies if they're not already covered under the blanket of the instituition's licenses.
Here you go..College stations..Staffed by committed volunteer from students, to retirees...Depend on fund-raisers and grants..Maybe one or two actual paid staff..
They pay and HONOR the license fees..AND give the struggling newcomer the recognition larger, for-profit stations won't do anymore. AND these same stations, also are the ones that more often than not, raise the money to SPONSOR and PAY musicians what they deserve at the Student Union OR other on-campus venue.
Heh, it costs 600 bux a year to have a beer resale license in South Carolina. But you don't want to PAY the musician eh?
Thanks for putting it so succinctly bro'...I will correct one thing however..
You advertise the BIG GAME on social media at your place, GUESS what?. If you haven't paid for the license(s) to do so, WELL, you're just asking for major trouble from more than BMI
If you play your personal account XM radio in the resturant..Ditto what I just typed above.
Solution?. If you're on a really low budget, lease a juke box..You're covered PLUS you make money off of it too..
Otherwise, just be the BEST resturant/bar you can food/drink/SERVICE-wise. Locate near a major venue and benefit from the crowds at a properly licensed, PROFESSIONALLY promoted/performed event
NO, you shouldn't have to pay since it's a "private event/houseparty"..IF you were doing this say weekly OR even monthly (regular basis) then I'd say you're probably at risk of local authorities bustin' your chops do to a bar turning you in..
Reason I know this, my friend with her house concerts had to finally pay a small "promoters fee-based" license..She's not a cheapskate shiester however and came from Massachussetts where people are raised to "pay for what they use" (Unlike Dixie where the Plantation/Slave Wage Mentality is still the unfortunate Rule)
"Well, considering those are the venues that usually refuse to pay a decent amount of money for gigs, yes. It would. There are restaurants and other businesses that will literally try to get away with paying $75 or less for a 3+ hour gig (or even better, some won't pay the musician at all but let them put a "tip jar" on the piano)...get the hell out of here. A fair price for that sort of thing is at LEAST $250-300."
AND it's usually the richer resturants that are ripping the artists off...Like the one here in South Carolina. Pays ALL his workers sub-minimum, hires mostly cons (including a registered pedophile!) while his extended drunk-ass family EACH, from age 16 up, get a NEW Lexus OR Tahoma EVERY YEAR..Sometimes twice in a year..
They offer the musicians.....Beer and a "DISCOUNT" on pizza..Wow...
This is a family the licensing agencies AND US DOL needs to "take down" for about 30 YEARS of ripping everyone off!
Yea, they ARE getting their royalties and that helps promoter MORE original music..More live music, etc.
As a personal note, it helps to get rid of those god-awful cover bands in red-neck dives (Exclusing legitimate Americana/Country-AND-Western establishments)
Also, don't most of us wish that Karaoke just "die".?. It has to be licensed as well..
Foster's had other problems..This unwillingness to PAY for what they used was symptomatic of the "Suthern'" belief system in getting something for nuthin'. The Phree-Lunch Philosophy=Theft=Plantation Mentality.
I'm helping to bust venues that don't pay the musician they hire. Just a wee bit of enforcement on my part.
Here HERE.. Tell these Dixie DeadBeats until they're punkin' heads get the message..
It's like tipping the Pizza Delivery guy/gal..They risk hide and hair (and use their own gas) because someone is too lazy to do carry-out...If you don't tip, then my question to them is...."How much would it cost for a TAXI to deliver that pizza?"...AND if you don't pay the Taxi driver OR for the meal in a sit-down resturant, YOU GO to JAIL!!!..
BMI and the other music agencies only sue for monetary compensation. I'd like to see where equipment in unlicensed venues is seized and repeat offenders are jailed!
Stealing is STEALING..Yea, even in Dixie..
BTW, I'm helping to "bust" three crab-infested dives right now for music infringement and got my sights on two more..WHY?. Because musicians that play aren't getting paid..AND crooks like these, who profited because of live music NOW...NEED...TO....PAY!!!!
Those that call the licensing agencies "The Music Mafia" represents the "I shouldn't have to pay for it" mentality to a "T"...It's the time proven law. Regret to hear that because "your friend's" bar was so small, he "believes he should be given a pass..If he was having bands outside, that represents a pretty LARGE crowd potential. He, the bar owner should profit, but NOT the musician is his way of thinking.
The law is the LAW...Been since 1917...It's just down here in the South, the "get it for free" crowd are getting caught.
Change comes slow here, if it ever comes at all, BUT I've found that those places that don't want to pay the license fees usually don't have a good history of paying the band. OR try the "donation" route...A musician shouldn't have to RELY on 20 bux worth of tips when the GREEDY bar owner makes a grand off of his/her playing..
Sell booze..You need a license..Operate a business in general..Need a license..Drive a car, own a dog, FISH and hunt, requires a license..
Want live music?. PAY..FOR ..THE.....DAMN......LICENSE!!!..Or else, lease a juke box and be done with it!
YES, they were illegal. You get a "single-use" license for copyrighted material. That's why it says at the beginning of a DVD, "NOT for public viewing" (without permission).
Unless it's public domain, like alot of old cowboy flix, it's a violation without written permission..Mostly movies are on a per screening basis. Example.."Gone with the Wind", in a 200-seat venue still charges 750 bux for the rental AND one showing. Even if the library had licenses from all three services for music, that wouldn't cover a major movie.
What really pissed me off was when a local small town started showing DVD's for "FREE" at their local park while a tax-paying local theater owner was struggling to make ends meet by charging 5 buck admission. The owner didn't turn in the city for fear of repercussions but I am PROUD I did...AND that crap stopped after that one year!.
People need to get out of this "free lunch" mentality especially in government towns.
Q:If others perform music in my place of business, can I, the owner/operator, be held liable for copyright infringement?
A: YES. The Copyright Law of the United States, and subsequent case law, clearly states that the owner or operator of an establishment where music is publically performed is required to obtain the advanced authorization required for the performance of copyrighted music on the premises.
BMI was only doing what has been THE LAW for almost 100 years.
But those that claim that they shook down this resturant be warned. You're just like the thiefs (especially in the South) who shortchange their employees in all these "employment at will" states. I am hopeful Ascap and SeSac start hammering down on these club and resturant owners for theft of product.
A musician is an independant contractor offering you a service. Just like a Plummer OR Carpenter. But in the South, we still hold onto the "Plantation Mentality" ie IF we can find a slave to work for nothing, well that proves how smart we are..NO it just proves you're a THIEF who ain't got caught yet.
Yea, try pulling some crap like this with the famous "Joe the Plumber" (from politics fame)..
Personally, it's too bad we can't return to the days where a white collared,pencil-pushing lackey manager trying to pull a fast one on one of his employees got introduced to a healthy dose of "Loading Dock Justice". I once had to do this on one job. Got suspended for 3-days BUT I never had anymore trouble out of that shrimp during my tenure of 11 years there. (We got bought out)
This resturant was "STEALING off the MUSICIANS Table" and the courts returned a verdict that was "Fair and Just"..
Yea, that kinda' scares some of you Repugnacrat NumbNuts when a contract cuts the other way (instead of being only one-sided in your favor) don't it?!!!
BMI, Ascap, and Sesac right to sue for compensation goes back to atleast 1917...Just like pirated software, pirated music is stealing and has been for over 90 years per Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes landmark decision on licensing.
Music must be licensed. Period. Without a license. You will eventually be found. Why did this all come about?. Because crooked owners of establishments both large and small, promised musicians and artisans PAY and didn't deliver!
What we need is more compliance to keep the riff-raff, small and large out of thinking they're doing a musician a favor by letting them play at max for tips thrown their way while same musicians efforts make the unscrutable thief a ton of cash!..
Venues would benefit as well if they just did it legal.
They'd atleast show some measure of respect for those who work hard on-the-road to entertain them.
Techdirt has not posted any stories submitted by PappyCaligula.
Radio Stations
I know of a resturant that got caught lying using a 14 buck a month XM account (The Folk Channel or whatever it was called) on their main PA system. )
Their Business Accounts:
Customer Service: 1-866-596-7040
Sales: 1-866-596-7044
Starting at $29.95 a month..Here's Siirius/XM's disclaimer however...
Don't hassle with royalties, we take care of it for you
As a service to our customer we take care of royalty fees for legal play Including ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. Other commercial music license fees paid for most establishments unless you operate an establishment that charges an admission or membership fee (e.g. a theme park, skating rink, dance club, health club, etc.) or uses music sources other than a receiver not provided by our company (e.g. CDs, DJs, live music, terrestrial radio, etc.). We provide our customers with all of the necessary licensing with all of our business music packages to the following licensing companies.
BMI...Ascap.....Sesac...
This rube in South Carolina didn't want to pay an extra 15 bux a month for his XM". NOW because he 1)Lied 2)Now says he just REFUSES to acknowledge BMI's authority, he's facing a suit (and knowing this cretin', the same one who gives beer to DRUNKEN So-called musicians in exchange for actual compensation to talent.)I hope they make an F'n EXAMPLE oh his a** so those "used to getting a free lunch" realize the value of MUSIC to their business and voluntarily call the licensing services and start being "legal"..
Sometimes you gotta' step on toes..Some people though, you gotta' step on their NECKS...
Apples and Oranges
AND most do charge a one-drink (like a dollar cup of coffee) pay to hang...AND to keep snot-nosed teens from bothering collegiate and older paying patrons, require them to atleast buy a refill every four hours or so.
Here's the problem of this discussion..FREE WI-FI is Not licensed...MUSIC IS..SO those trying to sidestep the issue of PAYING the fees for music need to STOP their BULL-SHIT and stick with the discussion at hand..
SO far, I've heard nothing from the pro-thievery crowd to nullify the standing agreements that have been in effect since ATLEAST 1917...Performers have the right to copyright and ANYONE useing their work, has the OBLIGATION to pay for it..
AND for the nimrod that tried to make this into a Libertarian issue accusing government intervention in the free-market, let me say that in South Carolina, and particularily with Ms Nicki Shindawa Hailey, our "goober-nish", she herself INTERVENED in the Boeing vs Mechanics Union...ON-THE-SIDE of BUSINESS when it is CLEAR, this was between the workers and the company..Her action then spawned the action where the NLRB came down on her ass and BOEING (which in sworn confidential and proven documents came to South Carolina to ESCAPE a BINDING ARBITRATED agreement) for basically picking "the winner"..
The courts are government BUT remember the "blind lady" holding the balance?. That's where the plantiff and defendant work-it-all out..
AND it's no wonder that political ignoramous' like Nicky "It's a Great Day in South Carolina" Hailey try to pervert law in favor of political interests..
To conclude and STAY FOCUSED the REAL issue once more..You have public performances of film and/or music in your PLACE of BUSINESS, you are REQUIRED.....TO.....LICENSE!!
Side Note:..One of the big issues that BMI is attacking now, PER, the musician's REQUEST, is to investigate "Gentleman's Clubs" IE "Titty and Nudie Bars", to see if music is being misused by the dancers WHO as Independent Contractors for the most part, are required to license AND seek PERMISSION as well..Alot of country artists do not want their songs used in a "nasty way"..Rocker's?. No problem for the most part.
I know that strikes some of you Southern "IF I ain't cheatin' I ain't smart" Dunderheads as UNFAIR to the poor titty dancer, BUT "BY Permission" means what it MEANS!..
AND no, the idea that "It's easier to ask for FORGIVENESS than ask for permission doesn't apply at ALL here so get that OUT of your punkin' head NOW!"
now get this all of you mostly Southern Dunderheads that getting something without paying for it is being SMART, NOT stealin',
Usually 3000 sq ft
In South Carolina, the most ANTI-UNION, one-sided contract state in the UNION, the SC Resturant Association and its members PARTNER with BMI to offer vendor discounts, and all sorts of neat perks where if taken advantage of, takes care of almost the entire amount of the basic yearly licensing fee. Which is around 335-ish less 10 per cent if paid in full LESS another 10 per cent for being a member of the above organization IF you have an average of one to two shows a week in up to a 200 seat venue.
SO, if you've can't pay LESS than a dollar-a-day each month you have live music, you've got some REAL cash-flow probs already. BUT going back to the "Dixie Don't Pay" attitude, it's usually the BIG resturants who claim (Put on your BEST Foghorn Leghorn accent now)..
"I've NEVAH he'rd of NO B...M....I...SO it doesn't exist and I's RE-FUZE to pay no carpet baggin' SKA-LA-WAG from Yahn-Kee'Ville"..
Uh...The music services are now based out of Nashville btw,.
Thief?
"esides I don't understand why people should get paid for past works when nobody else gets paid that way."
If it's never performed again, NO, no residuals/royalties.
It's like syndicated television though..The studios SIGNED a contract to pay actors, directors, etc. EVERYTIME their work is displayed..Without it, they'd be NO new television NO new music. NO nothing..
Sounds like another deadbeat wanting something for nothing.
College Stations
Here you go..College stations..Staffed by committed volunteer from students, to retirees...Depend on fund-raisers and grants..Maybe one or two actual paid staff..
They pay and HONOR the license fees..AND give the struggling newcomer the recognition larger, for-profit stations won't do anymore. AND these same stations, also are the ones that more often than not, raise the money to SPONSOR and PAY musicians what they deserve at the Student Union OR other on-campus venue.
Heh, it costs 600 bux a year to have a beer resale license in South Carolina. But you don't want to PAY the musician eh?
Re: copyright vs publishing
You advertise the BIG GAME on social media at your place, GUESS what?. If you haven't paid for the license(s) to do so, WELL, you're just asking for major trouble from more than BMI
If you play your personal account XM radio in the resturant..Ditto what I just typed above.
Solution?. If you're on a really low budget, lease a juke box..You're covered PLUS you make money off of it too..
Otherwise, just be the BEST resturant/bar you can food/drink/SERVICE-wise. Locate near a major venue and benefit from the crowds at a properly licensed, PROFESSIONALLY promoted/performed event
For a private party
Reason I know this, my friend with her house concerts had to finally pay a small "promoters fee-based" license..She's not a cheapskate shiester however and came from Massachussetts where people are raised to "pay for what they use" (Unlike Dixie where the Plantation/Slave Wage Mentality is still the unfortunate Rule)
Here HERE!!
AND it's usually the richer resturants that are ripping the artists off...Like the one here in South Carolina. Pays ALL his workers sub-minimum, hires mostly cons (including a registered pedophile!) while his extended drunk-ass family EACH, from age 16 up, get a NEW Lexus OR Tahoma EVERY YEAR..Sometimes twice in a year..
They offer the musicians.....Beer and a "DISCOUNT" on pizza..Wow...
This is a family the licensing agencies AND US DOL needs to "take down" for about 30 YEARS of ripping everyone off!
Re: Re: Re: Re: using their logic
As a personal note, it helps to get rid of those god-awful cover bands in red-neck dives (Exclusing legitimate Americana/Country-AND-Western establishments)
Also, don't most of us wish that Karaoke just "die".?. It has to be licensed as well..
No it didn't
I'm helping to bust venues that don't pay the musician they hire. Just a wee bit of enforcement on my part.
Re: Re: using their logic
It's like tipping the Pizza Delivery guy/gal..They risk hide and hair (and use their own gas) because someone is too lazy to do carry-out...If you don't tip, then my question to them is...."How much would it cost for a TAXI to deliver that pizza?"...AND if you don't pay the Taxi driver OR for the meal in a sit-down resturant, YOU GO to JAIL!!!..
BMI and the other music agencies only sue for monetary compensation. I'd like to see where equipment in unlicensed venues is seized and repeat offenders are jailed!
Stealing is STEALING..Yea, even in Dixie..
BTW, I'm helping to "bust" three crab-infested dives right now for music infringement and got my sights on two more..WHY?. Because musicians that play aren't getting paid..AND crooks like these, who profited because of live music NOW...NEED...TO....PAY!!!!
So called "Music Mafia"
The law is the LAW...Been since 1917...It's just down here in the South, the "get it for free" crowd are getting caught.
Change comes slow here, if it ever comes at all, BUT I've found that those places that don't want to pay the license fees usually don't have a good history of paying the band. OR try the "donation" route...A musician shouldn't have to RELY on 20 bux worth of tips when the GREEDY bar owner makes a grand off of his/her playing..
Sell booze..You need a license..Operate a business in general..Need a license..Drive a car, own a dog, FISH and hunt, requires a license..
Want live music?. PAY..FOR ..THE.....DAMN......LICENSE!!!..Or else, lease a juke box and be done with it!
Re: So movie nights are illegal?
Unless it's public domain, like alot of old cowboy flix, it's a violation without written permission..Mostly movies are on a per screening basis. Example.."Gone with the Wind", in a 200-seat venue still charges 750 bux for the rental AND one showing. Even if the library had licenses from all three services for music, that wouldn't cover a major movie.
What really pissed me off was when a local small town started showing DVD's for "FREE" at their local park while a tax-paying local theater owner was struggling to make ends meet by charging 5 buck admission. The owner didn't turn in the city for fear of repercussions but I am PROUD I did...AND that crap stopped after that one year!.
People need to get out of this "free lunch" mentality especially in government towns.
Taste of REALITY
Q:If others perform music in my place of business, can I, the owner/operator, be held liable for copyright infringement?
A: YES. The Copyright Law of the United States, and subsequent case law, clearly states that the owner or operator of an establishment where music is publically performed is required to obtain the advanced authorization required for the performance of copyrighted music on the premises.
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
Stealin' is Stealin'
But those that claim that they shook down this resturant be warned. You're just like the thiefs (especially in the South) who shortchange their employees in all these "employment at will" states. I am hopeful Ascap and SeSac start hammering down on these club and resturant owners for theft of product.
A musician is an independant contractor offering you a service. Just like a Plummer OR Carpenter. But in the South, we still hold onto the "Plantation Mentality" ie IF we can find a slave to work for nothing, well that proves how smart we are..NO it just proves you're a THIEF who ain't got caught yet.
Yea, try pulling some crap like this with the famous "Joe the Plumber" (from politics fame)..
Personally, it's too bad we can't return to the days where a white collared,pencil-pushing lackey manager trying to pull a fast one on one of his employees got introduced to a healthy dose of "Loading Dock Justice". I once had to do this on one job. Got suspended for 3-days BUT I never had anymore trouble out of that shrimp during my tenure of 11 years there. (We got bought out)
This resturant was "STEALING off the MUSICIANS Table" and the courts returned a verdict that was "Fair and Just"..
Yea, that kinda' scares some of you Repugnacrat NumbNuts when a contract cuts the other way (instead of being only one-sided in your favor) don't it?!!!
Pay UP...
Music must be licensed. Period. Without a license. You will eventually be found. Why did this all come about?. Because crooked owners of establishments both large and small, promised musicians and artisans PAY and didn't deliver!
What we need is more compliance to keep the riff-raff, small and large out of thinking they're doing a musician a favor by letting them play at max for tips thrown their way while same musicians efforts make the unscrutable thief a ton of cash!..
Venues would benefit as well if they just did it legal.
They'd atleast show some measure of respect for those who work hard on-the-road to entertain them.
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