Fewer, But Better, Computer Science Students
from the good-for-them dept
To hear people complaining these days you'd think that there were no more computer science students taking classes any more, and the three or four who were would never find jobs. It seems that's not true. Enrollment in computer science is definitely down, but people say the quality is much higher, as these are students who actually are interested in the topic, as opposed to those boom-year students who just studied it because they thought it would let them ride the wave to dot com riches. The schools also note that it's more difficult to find jobs, but they are placing the majority of their students in tech jobs.
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Human Resource Allocation
However, there is convergence going on at various levels -- as computers assume more important roles throughout society, ethical requirements are going up. People who enjoy vicious pranks should not be allowed to administer systems. The frontier of biological science increasingly involves finding advanced mathematical patterns, requiring people good at math. The economic realities of health care increasingly require health professionals who are good at pretending to be ethical but will otherwise mistreat patients as required.
Over the past decade, medical/nursing schools have put a renewed emphasis on ethics, but I suspect the pendulum is ready to swing the other day. Save-the-starving-babies types are miserable under the current system. In coming years, we may see more squishy computer science majors wearing red ribbon lapels, and more doctors/nurses who laugh at AIDS patients.
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No Subject Given
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The training at good schools emphasizes becoming a good intellectual over becoming a good professional, so that should also be considereed when choosing schools. Do you want to spend most of your time solving weird abstract problems, or do you want learn how to solve straightforward real-world problems?
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But in spite of being a drop-out myself, and being against the near universal conception that "self educated" is an oxymoron, I don't necessarily agree that you can't teach programming. People learn in different ways: one of my big problems with school was that I can't stand the slow pace of oral teaching. I can read unusually quickly, and want to learn that way. For me, oral lectures are torture, but for others (apparently for most people), this helps them learn. Apparently, most people just can't learn from books alone, and perhaps also lack the discipline to teach themselves.
I do agree that a degree in itself is meaningless in terms of real ability, and that good coders are few and far between.
I've only ever seen one help wanted ad that acknowledged the possibility that a person might not need formal education. This is from 1990:
SOFTWARE DEVELOPER
Engineering software company has an equity-track opening for a mature individual capable of phasing in as the principle [sic] software developer of a successful product.
Candidates must have demonstrated success in software development, and be familiar with both Windows and the Macintosh system.
A Ph.D and at least 2 years of experience as an R&D engineer or scientist is preferred: alternatively, candidate may be a genius.
Please send resume and salary history to:
ECHIP, Inc.
Hockessin DE 19707
I wonder if they filled the position?
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college
Sounds like the hiring manager was not too bright and couldn't stand the idea of hiring someone smarter who might make him/her look bad.
If I remember correctly, their preference was for high school dropouts - of course, the kind who drop out because of boredom and frustration
They probably got lots of people who wrote code that more or less worked but was unmaintainable by anyone else.
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Actually, the better schools have oral lectures that proceed very quickly. They will take it for granted that you will have learned tangential material from reading on your own. If you didn't do well in school, you might have gotten stuck in slow courses.
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...to see if I am able to judge it "good". After all, I'm a manager in charge of hiring the programmers theirfore, erg sum, I should be able to write good code and identify it when I see it.
Jesus... no wonder you have time to post to techdirt.
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I think we can all pretty much acknwledge the fact
In the long run I now realized who was the smarter (at understanding the meta-game) of the bunch and it ain't the ones with the degrees.
Which brings me to an intersting question: is it smarter to try to compete with Indian wage slaves, or develope Open Source and become an independant implementer of Open Source systems? As far as I'm concerned GNU had it right from the start and will be the salviation of the North American IT worker.
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I went to a "good school" (read top 15 comp-sci school at the time) and dropped out ~10 credits shy of graduating.
I then went to an absolute bottom of the barel school (one step above a degree mill), transfered my credit over and graduated practicaly on that alone (hey, it was the *only* school with a comp-sci program in my geographic area at the time).
My impression was that the instructors were far more involved and dedicated at the bottom rung school.... because it was their job... their livelyhood and because they weren't distracted to university politics, publishing or parishing and babysitting board upper middle class children who's only post secondary education life option was college.
Some of the shittiest instructors I had in the top-of-the-line school had undergraduate and PhD degrees from places like Harvard and Yale and MIT. Beyond fail, every last one of these folks lacked the ability to actually teach and some could not even run a class (thank god for all the Indian TAs).
So, keep in mind that it might not be the ungratefulls ganging up againt you... it might be that you completely lack any real work ethic and that your prestigious educations does not automatically entitle you to the respect and admiration of your peers... of course, if you haven't learned how to make friends and influence people, you've probably missed out on one of the bigger lessons in life the isn't necessarily taught in school.
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barrel?
transfered my credit over and graduated
transferred?
practicaly on that alone
practically?
their livelyhood
livelihood?
distracted to university politics
distracted by?
publishing or parishing
publishing or perishing?
board upper middle class children who's only post secondary education life option was college.
bored upper middle class children whose only option in life after high school was college?
like Harvard and Yale and MIT
like Harvard, Yale, and MIT?
Beyond fail,
Without fail? Or maybe invariably?
ungratefulls
ingrates?
it might be that you completely lack any real work ethic and that your prestigious educations does not automatically entitle you
It might be that you lack a work ethic; your prestigious educations do not automatically entitle you?
if you haven't learned how to make friends and influence people, you've probably missed out on one of the bigger lessons in life the isn't necessarily taught in school.
Well as a matter of fact, learning to write well does lead to earning respect and influence among influential people. People in the higher echelons of society have to endure a lot of illiterate drivel written by self-righteous uneducated people who think they are "better" than college graduates.
It's also true that outside of school, most people go berserk when you correct their writing, so you can earn their hatred by doing so. In this case, the power of ignorance may prevail.
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CIS not CS
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You cannot possibly talk fast enough to hold my attention.
I can "study" at 1,000 wpm. No one can even come close to talking that fast.
I wasn't stuck in slow courses; in fact I was in G&T from fifth grade right up until the day I quit.
I have a great love of learning, but school (for me) was horrible, horrible torture. Too slow, boring, plodding through material I'd already read, and, worse, often the instructors had imperfect knowledge of what they were teaching.
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I'd be interested in seeing how you fare at some good schools where they take it for granted that you already understand the textbook, so the lecture zips through materials not covered in the text. Oh, but that's right, you dropped out, so you can't get into a good school now.
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There's an assumption there that only one text will be read.
Those of us who are autodidactic don't learn from one source. We read multiple treatments. Sure, one anatomy text may not mention a particular fact, but another will. And why is it any easier to remember what was said vs. what is read?
I prefer reading. When someone is speaking, my mind will race off in some direction because of something they said. With a book, I can put it down, go research the thing that piqued my interest, and come back to the book which, unlike a speaker, is waiting patiently.
The Internet makes this a lot easier than it used to be. When I need to learn something new, I can find hundreds of different viewpoints from all kinds of people. I can explore all sorts of related subjects quickly and easily.
I am always amazed by the snobbery that assumes that only a "traditional" education is of value. It may very well be true that for most people that does produce the best results, but we are all different, and that is, I think, one of the greatest failures of traditional education.
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Well, you are probably wrong about that. Schools do take life experience into account, and I have 40 years of that since high school.
But I wouldn't want to. Everything I want to learn, I can learn without a school to teach it to me. The internet makes it much more easy than it used to be, and the library is just down the street. Why do I need to listen to someone who may not even have read as much as I will? To get their agreement that I understand the subject? I know better than they ever will how well I understand. To get a job? I work for myself.
To get the respect of people who don't think anyone without a degree is worth anything? Don't need it :-)
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Without the accountability of getting grades I would not curl up every night with an operating systems book or learn a computer language other than the one I was working in. It's just a shortcoming of mine I suppose.
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