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  dorpus, 7 Oct 2005 @ 4:03pm

  
  

  Think Small Miss Small

  Over in Canada, there is a big "scandal" because the Immigration Minister had pizza dinners for C$138 and C$207, with inadequate explanations for why he spent these vast sums of taxpayer money. Opposing politicians have complained of "causing indigestion" among the citizenry, or of "digging his own grave".
  
  What the hell? Somehow I can't imagine Americans getting worked up about some politician's night out to a pizza parlor -- if anything, the scandal would be that he ate at such a cheap place. Well I don't know, maybe in Hawaii or somewhere? Some sumo-ish Hawaiian politician ordering a huge stack of pizzas for his extended family?
  
  http://www.excite.co.jp/News/odd/00081128598243.html

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    1251, 8 Oct 2005 @ 9:16am

    
    

    Re: Think Small Miss Small

    What does a Canadian politician's pizza-ordering have to do with VoIP and economies of scale?

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  Mousky, 7 Oct 2005 @ 5:12pm

  
  

  Incorrect Terminology

  It bugs me when people use incorrect terminology. The correct term is 'diseconomies of scale'. The term 'economies of scale' refers to the reduction in the cost per unit as production of a unit or the provision of a service decreases. Diseconomies of scale is the opposite: the cost per unit increases.

  By using the term "negative economies of scale", The Stalwart is saying that the cost of providing Skype or Vonage increases as more people use the service. That is not necessarily true and that is not really what The Stalwart means. They are really saying that since Vonage and Skype make money when their users connect to non-Vonage and non-Skype systems, should all phone users be on Skype (or Vonage) that Skype (or Vonage) will make no money. This is a revenue issue, not a cost issue, therefore, using the term economies or diseconomies of scale is, well, wrong.

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    Nate, 7 Oct 2005 @ 6:03pm

    
    

    Re: Incorrect Terminology

    Actually Mousky, economies of scale refers to the reduction in the cost per unit as a company increases production, not decreases production as you said. That little mixup on your part kind of makes your argument about people using incorrect terminology not hold much water.

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      Mousky, 7 Oct 2005 @ 9:15pm

      
      

      Re: Incorrect Terminology

      That was my mistake. I meant to say "increases".

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      Mousky, 7 Oct 2005 @ 9:19pm

      
      

      Re: Incorrect Terminology

      I made an honest typing mistake, but my argument still holds water. Economies of scale (negative or positive) relate to costs not revenues.

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        Dan, 9 Oct 2005 @ 7:41am

        
        

        Re: Incorrect Terminology

        It would hold more water if "diseconomies" was a real word...........

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  • 

    J 2the A, 8 Oct 2005 @ 7:38am

    
    

    Re: Incorrect Terminology

    Actually the term makes perfect sense to me. Just as Verizon has the "In" plan where all calls to other verizon phones are free (other have been doing it for a long time too) There is an enormous cost savings when staying within network, switching fees, taxes, POTS to VoIP fees, network fees, all of these go away when you call within same carrier, it simply becomes data on your own network. Quite honestly it's about time they offered something like this, when a Vonage customer calls another Vonage customer, Vonage reaps enourmous profits right now since their cost is close to nothing compared to transfering a POTS call from another network. So yes, the term fits, and yes there is a negitive revenue impact but obviously they belive the reduced cost of being all network will offest that for a greater Net.

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    J Surdilla, 8 Oct 2005 @ 12:48pm

    
    

    Re: Incorrect Terminology

    Negative economies of scale or diseconomies of scale are both used quite often so your argument holds not much merit on that. Besides that, I agree with what you said, for the most part.

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      Let it out, 10 Oct 2005 @ 12:13am

      
      

      Re: Incorrect Terminology

      I agree that I've heard both -- and only recently with such frequency -- but both nonetheless.
      
      Overall, the story seems like yet another of the increasingly common and frustratingly useless wastes of media bandwidth where the writer does nothing more than demonstrate a thorough lack of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.
      
      The VOIP providers are in "land grab" mode, just as the cellular providers of the late 90's. They're trying to get subscribers to encourage new subscribers to join, to "save" money in calls. Two to five years from now, the VOIP providers will suffer the same churn problem as conventional telecoms, then they'll embark on a crusade of conquest customers, then loyalty programs and finally they'll resort to the worst of all possible worlds for a technology service provider ... gasp ... quality of service ... oh hell of hells!

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  TheJesusGod, 7 Oct 2005 @ 5:27pm

  
  

  doesn't matter

  This will never happen though, as people will always have cell phones (non-landlines).

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    Scott, 7 Oct 2005 @ 11:09pm

    
    

    Re: doesn't matter

    This will never happen though, as people will always have cell phones (non-landlines).
    I'm not so sure. Vonage has a WiFi phone for sale already, and has had this phone for purchase for at least a few months.
    http://www.vonage.com/wifi/
    And with the increase of WiFi whole city coverage (i.e. WiMax, or whatever WiFi innovations that come along), this may actually become a real concern for both cell phone companies and local landline phone providers (POTS). Why pay long distance and roaming charges when you can talk for "free" with Vonage? (well a nominal monthly fixed fee, for now, until they have that coveted ogopoly)
    http://www.wimaxforum.org/news/downloads/WiMAX-The_Business_Case-Rev3.pdf
    Tampa and a few other cities already have free city-wide WiFi coverage (I've never seen it or used it in Tampa, but they say it exists, but probably just in the downtown districts for now).
    http://surfzone.sagonet.com/map.html

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      Scott, 7 Oct 2005 @ 11:55pm

      
      

      Re: doesn't matter

      My bad. Vonage has the WiFi phone out in Beta testing. I remember reading about it a few months ago, however, and thought it was on the market already. Sorry....

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    Anonymous Coward, 8 Oct 2005 @ 8:23am

    
    

    Re: doesn't matter

    This will never happen though, as people will always have cell phones (non-landlines).
    

    
    Yeah, but the technology supplying wireless mobile communications may not always be GSM/CDMA etc. Can you say WiMax? Or even wireless technologies that haven't even been invented yet?
    

    
    Mobile access to the internet may become extremely cheap or even free in the future. WiMax + VOIP = alot of cheap or free calls.

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  Brian Connelly, 8 Oct 2005 @ 5:00pm

  
  

  It's all Free if you are smart enough to read !

  Man people when will you start looking around you. Skype is B.S. it's all smoke and mirrors the fact is any geek worth their weight in salt or whatever pound conversion you use for geekdom....
  Has had free calling for years ! If you look at the opensource package of asterisk the power is in your hands! There are many other great programs but asterisk is the one I use. With it companies/individuals are hooking up every day routing calls over the net bypassing the local currupt tax systems and even more providing better services than what can be purchased from the best fortune rip you off 500.
  Do your research people linux and opensource have opened up the cottage industries that can and are taking down the big dogs every day !
  
  If you don't believe it then you are be paid to be stupid.
  
  Brian@loser.com.

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  Sonya, 8 Oct 2005 @ 10:28pm

  
  

  flawed premise

  Do your homework: With Vonage ALL calls are free, not just to other subscribers.

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    Anonymous Coward, 9 Oct 2005 @ 6:15am

    
    

    Re: flawed premise

    Well, included in the price of the service, $24.99.
    
    After your $20+ish broadband charge.
    
    Assuming vonage's EULA contractually obligates them to provide unlimites service.
    
    http://www.techdirt.com/news/wireless/article/5963
    
    
    

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  soccersmith10, 9 Oct 2005 @ 12:30pm

  
  

  Skype rules!

  Anyone who has had the chance to use Skype, instantly sees it value. If you already have high-speed internet, which the majority of people do now adays (and actually even if you use dial-up) you should be using Skype. WHY NOT! Free is free. You cant argue with that. The service works great and you dont HAVE to add any of the other service which cost money, Skype could make plenty of money by adding in a little ad at the top and selling the space. These guys aren't necessarily money hungry anyways. Lets not forget they are the same people who created Kazaa, which you can still use to share files. Even though it maybe a long shot to think that "everyone" will be using Skype, Im sure that when Alexander Bell invented the phone most people thought they would never have a daily use for that and shrugged it off for a while. Time will tell, regardless of the diseconomies or economies of scale that the service provides.

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  Jon, 9 Oct 2005 @ 3:23pm

  
  

  negative economies of scale

  Free VoIP providers will run into the same problems that free ISPs ran into-the more users, the more resources are needed, and they have to be paid for by something. It's a sad but true problem-someone's gotta pay for hardware, maintenance, and infrastructure support.

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  ants, 9 Oct 2005 @ 9:58pm

  
  

  skype

  I thought that ebay just bought skype, would you expect that this service will be free forever?

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  VoIP, 10 Oct 2005 @ 8:10am

  
  

  VoIP

  I dont think VoIP will suffer from traffic problems, since VoIP is not providing a real new technology.
  
  VoIP still uses IP and width band, and compression algoritms: technologies that now are over 10 years old and are improving more and more

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  Randy Alexander, 16 Oct 2005 @ 8:15pm

  
  

  VOIP...Vonage

  REmember, Vonage is the VOIP provider who uses.used Aurora Adware/spyware to advertise their services. Untold thousands of XP users have had to use Win recovery or format and reinstall to get rid of that one, just Google for Aurora and feel the angst!

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