Complaints About Hybrid Mileage? Blame The Driver!

from the seems-like-a-user-interface-problem dept

Fri, Oct 14th 2005 1:37am — Mike Masnick

Over the past few years there have been a number of complaints from hybrid car owners that the vehicles don't get anywhere near the mileage claimed. Considering that's a big part of the reason many buy hybrids, it really seems to upset owners -- especially when you factor in that the higher price of hybrids is almost impossible to make up in cost savings from the better mileage. While some have blamed the difference on the way in which official mileage numbers are calculated, some are blaming it on the drivers themselves. So, it appears that some hybrid makers are trying to fix this issue by teaching hybrid car owners how to drive more efficiently. While this does make some sense, it seems like a problem with the design if you have to drive it differently just to get anywhere near the advertised mileage.

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Rob Miles, 14 Oct 2005 @ 2:23am

don't be silly
Most drivers don't get the mileage they are supposed to now because they don't know how to properly drive the cars they have. It's no surprise (or at least, it certainly shouldn't be to us geeks) that a different engine technology would require a little different driving technique, but I bet it's only slightly modified from what you should be doing now, and probably aren't.
For instance, most people either take off much too quickly at green lights or much too slowly. There's a pretty big sweet spot in that regard, and most people don't hit it. And if you happen to be behind one of the too slow idiots, you're going to be too slow, unless you have the patience to wait a few seconds so that you can accelerate properly.
Conversly, most people don't know how to properly approach red lights or other stops. That's where I could see the hybrids being a little different, where you'd want to ride the brakes (perhaps) a little more than normal to help build up the charge. In fact, you'll get better mileage in stop-and-go traffic than you will with a gasoline engine.
To be sure, the design of these things does need to get better and more efficient, but not because people don't know how to drive them. I think it's a great idea that the manufacturers are wanting to teach customers how to properly use their investment. Most people will either not take advantage of it, or will ignore it within a couple of weeks then complain how they got good mileage at first, but now it's going back down and they bet those damn manufacturers made it that way.
Rob Miles
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Rob Miles, 14 Oct 2005 @ 2:27am

Re: don't be silly
Damn it, I previewed the plain html and it looked fine, with line breaks and everything. Then I post it and it's one big blob of a paragraph. Hell, even the text in the "reply to this post" window at least has breaks, but not in the posting area. What kind of crap is that?

Rob Miles
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Mark Murphy, 14 Oct 2005 @ 3:04am

No, Just The Standard Problem Exacerbated
I rented a Prius for a week in 2002 in the Bay Area.

First, driving behavior affects mileage in every car. Hybrids magnify the effect. Heck, if my Ford Explorer had the real-time mileage graphs of that Prius, I could probably get 10-20% better mileage just based on the graphs. It's only when you can see the effects that you really appreciate the mileage impacts, of, say, running the air conditioning, or driving aggressively.

Next, the EPA's numbers are hogwash. Visit any Prius forum and you'll see the real-world values. Why are the EPA's numbers hogwash? Beats me. But you can't blame the hybrid car makers for using them. For starters, they're hogwash for every car � the discrepancy is magnified in a hybrid for some reason. Everybody else advertises with the inflated EPA values; hybrid manufacturers would put themselves at a disadvantage if they unilaterally elected to use something else. Besides, I think they have to put EPA mileage on the sticker by law.
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Matt Glazebrook, 14 Oct 2005 @ 5:11am

Re: No, Just The Standard Problem Exacerbated
The numbers from what I understand are calculated without actually moving with the car on something like a treadmile for a car so there is no wind resistance and it isn't constantly changing speeds it is normally at one set speed for the highway miles and that speed is normally only around 55-60 mph.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Oct 2005 @ 5:49am

Re: No, Just The Standard Problem Exacerbated
Even slower than that. The highway MPG is created using an average highway speed of 48.6 miles per hour, with a top speed of 60 mph. Yeah, that's real world. Luckily the EPA is going to be changing this metric here within the next year or so to be more realistic.
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maronis, 14 Oct 2005 @ 6:07am

Depends on where you drive too
It also makes a big difference where you drive. I drive a 2004 Civic Hybrid and in the suburbs I get about 45 miles to the gallon. However, commuting to Boston through stop-and-go traffic, my mileage drops to the high 30's (I suspect a Prius would do really well in these conditions though).
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Oliver Wendell Jones, 14 Oct 2005 @ 6:25am

Re: don't be silly
It's a known bug in the Techdirt code. After you preview it, all the white spacing is stripped out. If you don't preview first, it works fine.
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dorpus, 14 Oct 2005 @ 6:36am

Re: don't be silly
Techdirt is an extremely primitive web site, but the "techies" on here will vehemently defend it as "good". It's the most backward site that I know of on the internet. I spend most of my time on better forums.

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tracelan, 14 Oct 2005 @ 6:54am

Get out of my way hybrid
Great just what I need a slow ass hybrid in front of me trying to maximize their gas milage.
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Jack, 14 Oct 2005 @ 7:19am

Maximizing MPG In A Prius
We have a 2004 Toyota Prius and love it. We routinely see mid-40s in mixed driving and have averaged 51mpg in 60mph highway driving. It's also a very comfortable, 5 pax sedan. There are several ways to maximize mileage in any car, a few that are specific to hybrids, and maybe one that is specific to the Prius: 1) Jack rabbit starts kill mileage; 2) Driving up to a stop sign or light at 40 or 50 mph and braking hard is not only wasteful, it's stupid. The Prius loves it when you coast because not only are you not burning gas, but you're feeding the battery!; 3) Drag is proportional to the square of the speed you drive, meaning you get 4 times the drag at 60 mph than 30mph, not twice the drag. So a relatively small decrease in highway speeds can mean a big savings (65mph vs 70mph is about 16% less drag); the hybrids (and many non-hybrids) have onboard computers showing mpg, so use them to teach yourself the best acceleration and get some positive feedback when coasting (i.e. 99+ mpg!); finally the Prius efficiency seems to be optimized through the use of the cruise control, or at least it's more disciplined than am I about accelerating and maintaining speed . (BTW, "riding the brakes" is not required to charge the battery in a Prius; any deceleration, including coasting does the trick just fine.) FWIW...
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Tbird, 14 Oct 2005 @ 7:32am

Hybrid cars
The advertized gas mileage for any vehicle(hybrid or not) is determined by a very complex "driving cycle" developed and run by the EPA. Unfortunately, it does not represent the way drivers actually drive. Consequently, most drivers do not achieve the fuel efficiency that is on the sticker for their car. As I said this applies to all vehicles, not just hybrids. We could all get better gas mileage if we changed our driving habits. Unfortunately, most everyone has been driving with poor habits for so long they no longer recognize the poor techniques they use - "that's just the way I drive" - as if they couldn't improve if they wanted to. This is patently false.
Hybrids do operate differently than non-hybrid vehicles - they have to. The current state of technology for batteries and gas engines dictates the optimum interface of the two under different driving conditions. Hybrids have sophisticated computer programs that govern this interface to optimize performance and fuel economy but the driver always has the last word. So if you want to put your foot to the floor every time you take off from a stop, yes you will burn more gas and get poorer fuel economy. But since you paid more money for a hybrid (presumably to get better fuel economy), doesn't it make sense to do everything reasonable to help yourself out? Just a little less pressure on the accelerator pedal from a stop keeps the hybrid in an electric motor- only mode, thus saving gas. Many drivers would not realize this without being told.
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Jesse, 14 Oct 2005 @ 7:40am

The MPG you get is based on how you drive
I drive an Insight and my average is between 60 and 65 MPG. In rough stop and go traffic I have averaged in the high 40's and on long drives I can get 80's. Other drivers have reported anywhere from 40 to 90+ for their _lifetime_ averages. This has little to do with the individual car and more to do with the environment and the driver.
The Toyota (and Ford, which licensed Toyota's technology) hybrids have a much different engine setup than the Hondas. This is why the Prius has a better city rating than hiway. Coming to a stop can be a little different in a hybrid, generally we want to slow down over a longer period to maximize the regenerative braking. Truck drivers often do this as well because if coming to a stop light you have a better chance of still being moving when it turns green.
And for those of you who just have to do 80 down the freeway, you're only taking your aggression out on your wallet. I pay less than $30 a week to fill up my tank and drive over 600 miles.
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Jack, 14 Oct 2005 @ 7:41am

Re: Get out of my way hybrid
It's only fair you have to wait while we accelerate; we Prius owners have to wait behind you while you pump $60 of gas into your SUV! :-)
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Dave, 14 Oct 2005 @ 7:52am

Re: Maximizing MPG In A Prius
"We routinely see mid-40s in mixed driving"
It's strange to compare MPG perceptions from the US (where I guess you are) and the UK (where I am)
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Dave, 14 Oct 2005 @ 7:54am

Re: Maximizing MPG In A Prius
"We routinely see mid-40s in mixed driving"
It's strange to compare MPG perceptions from the US (where I guess you are) and the UK (where I am). I've been getting high 40's MPH in may last few cars, none of which was a hybrid - either 1.6l petrol or 2.0l turbo diesel. Performance was fine, without the gas guzzling that comes with a huge US-style engine
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Evan Kane, 14 Oct 2005 @ 7:58am

Re: Depends on where you drive too
I have a civic hybrid and I average 46mpg in the burbs but I usually average over 50mph on the highway with no traffic. So usually I average around 48mpg, exactly what is stated on the sticker. However in the winter when the auto engine shutoff is disable because of the higher idle my city mpg drops into the high 30s low 40s.
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Joe, 14 Oct 2005 @ 8:18am

Hybrid Hell
I have a lifted 2003 Silverado that if I drive it sparingly I can get as much as 15 mpg, it generally gets 12 miles to the gallon. If my grandmother drives it she gets 18 mpg.
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Vlad, 14 Oct 2005 @ 8:29am

Re: don't be silly
Yeah, that whole preview stripping out br tags annoyes me. i wonder if the whole page will break if i put in random other tags.
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Jack, 14 Oct 2005 @ 8:30am

Re: Maximizing MPG In A Prius
When comparing US and UK gas mileage, be sure to account for the fact that 1.0 UK gallon = 1.20 US gallons. (see http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm) So 40mpg (uk) = 33mpg (us)
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Vlad, 14 Oct 2005 @ 8:34am

Re: don't be silly
Hey it didn't! Apart from the br tag bug on previews, I actually really like the way this site works... I like the simplicity, the lack of registration or censorship. now if only we could find a way to create even more threads on DRM and corporate greed!
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ted, 14 Oct 2005 @ 9:02am

Re: don't be silly
thank you rob, you put it very nicely. i can milk my 87 bmw for about 32mpg highway. i've learnded the RPM where my engine has to do the least work to keep me going. and that RPM equals about 77 MPH. i know thats a bit fast. well not really, but traffic tends to go about that fast everywhere around here (NW Ohio) at least on the commute.

and furthermore, people that slam on the gas and brakes as there way to drive should all get their licence taken away for wasting so much gas. when i see a big suv doing that i want to reach out and choke the person behind the wheel.
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Griffon, 14 Oct 2005 @ 9:13am

It's largely expectations causing frustration
Meh, we own a Hybrid Highlander and it's a a nice ride but we get a solid 10+ miles less then advertised. The largest part of this problem is how the base is calculated, which then sets (especially for hybrids) a very high expectation. That is then further magnified by hard drivers like myself vs. softies like my wife. But the difference in driving styles (As the original article notes) is only a few miles. The ratings that currently being claimed for hybrids should be kicking up all kinds of false adverting actions, they are simple totally BS for the real word and stretch for optimized environments.

On average we get about 25mpg on our highlander, we test drove 3 ford escapes, none of them got better then 18mpg and it has a much smaller engine. First gen vs. second gen tech I guess, but it was so bad we where almost happy to spend the extra cash on the Highlander.

The other folks I know all report the same sort of thing. The advertised difference is so huge compared to the variance and the little things (like save a bit by no ac etc, but then who drives like that?) to still be laughable.

Honestly I think they should be required by law ot advertise real world numbers that are accurate, and not wishful ideal thinking that nobody will ever come close to approaching. Normal mileage on non hybrids seems to be accurate withing a couple gallons given variables, hybrids should at least be that close, instead of double or triple or worse.

Yes their are things that make a difference and it helps to know things but that is only a small piece of bigger puzzle.

The crappy ancient old Honda civic we replaced got much better mileage then the Escape does real world and a bit better then our Highlander, but it was not super low emissions. At the end of the day the super low admission rating is the right reason to get the hybrid not just better millage, IMO.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Oct 2005 @ 9:24am

No Subject Given
The biggest problem with hybrids isn't the gas mileage (which could probably be better anyway), but rather, the pricetag.

Sure, new models and new technology are always going to be more expensive; that part of the equation is clear. What seems ridiculous, though, is that only you wealthy people can afford to drive hybrids. For you, the gas-money savings might be the difference between a good steak dinner at a fine restaurant and a good steak dinner at just a good restaurant. For me, it's more like the difference between eating and not eating.
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Lance Albertson, 14 Oct 2005 @ 9:29am

One Real World EPA Example.
I just picked up a Prius - three whole days ago. I've also got a 1996 Dodge Caravan. According to the information on http://www.fueleconomy.gov the Caravan is supposed to get 22 mpg. My experience is that it gets about 17 mpg when I drive, so I'm only getting 77% of the predicted mileage there. Granted that I've only driven half-a-tank on my Prius, but right now I am averaging over 47 mpg, but I'll use 47 mpg to be conservative. The same website shows 60 mpg city and 51 highway for the Prius; there is no combined value, but from the Caravan values the combined value appears to be about 2/3 city, 1/3 highway, which would make about 57mpg for the Prius. 47/57 = 82% of the predicted mpg. So I guess I don't see what all the fuss is about. My Prius has a higher percentage than my Caravan does. Microsoft isn't the only one who puts out FUD - check out your local American car maker.
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eeyore, 14 Oct 2005 @ 9:31am

Re: don't be silly
Great, Dorpus, why don't you go and spend ALL of your time on your "better" forums. No one here will miss you and your totally irrelevant and pointless posts that merely add length to the page and nothing else.
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blob of goo, 14 Oct 2005 @ 9:33am

hybrids? meh.
1)too expensive. Dealers are charging top dollar for the things. I pay about $75/mo in gas for my Ford Explorer. I can't go off roading in a hybrid, either. (Yes, I take my Explorer off road frequently)

2)E-85 would help reduce fuel usage and lower gas prices as well. Why don't we have it in California?

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Anonymous Coward, 14 Oct 2005 @ 10:06am

False Advertising

Yeah everyone, it's called " FALSE ADVERTISING "

They don't test under real driving conditions so all you tree hugging suck wads can bite me while I enjoy my economical sooped up Miata GASOLINE auto ...

People that drive hybrids just " think " they are doing the world a favor ... something else had to produce the electric & chances are it was coal.
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nezromatron, 14 Oct 2005 @ 10:28am

Re: False Advertising
Actually, It's not advertising.. Manufacturers are required to put whatever the results of the EPA test are. The mileage is based a calculation which uses the emissions as a factor. Gross polluters are assumed to have crappy mileage and vice versa. So, something that would have little emissions will show much higher mileage that expected.
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TheDrewbert, 14 Oct 2005 @ 10:29am

The False Advertising Claims
For all you people shouting "False Advertising", the automobile manufacturers are required to use the mileage numbers provided by the EPA. They have no choice.
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TheDrewbert, 14 Oct 2005 @ 10:34am

Re: False Advertising
You apparently have no idea how hybrids work. You don't plug a hybrid in... ever.

While it's clear that every car would be more fuel efficient if hybrid technology were added to it, it is not yet clear that it would financially effiecnt.

Until the price of hybrid technology drops to the point where it's just a $1200 engine option, the only thing hybrids will be saving is gasoline, not money.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Oct 2005 @ 10:48am

Re: don't be silly
coincidentally, no one gives a shit about anything dorpus says because he's a tool, thinks he knows everything, and in reality probably works at Burger King.
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Griffon, 14 Oct 2005 @ 11:10am

Re: False Advertising
LOL, coal huh? Pretty funny stuff, I hope that was humor... otherwise it was a bit scary in a conversation on Hybrids.
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s, 14 Oct 2005 @ 11:25am

Re: False Advertising
yes, it appears that someone needs to read a physics book. there are other ways to create electricity/energy besides coal.

perhaps looking up something like electromagnetic energy on google would be a start. maybe try kinetic energy.

those new fangled hybrids don't have extra trunk space to carry their own coal do they?
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Jay, 14 Oct 2005 @ 11:48am

Re: False Advertising
Umm.. That actually is very false. The electricity generated in a hybrid car is generated by you burning gasoline and driving, braking, etc. Coal is not even in the picture.
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Sam I AM, 14 Oct 2005 @ 11:54am

Liberal / Environmental / Cheap Bastards
To you liberal evnironmental freaks. Hybrids will not save the planet by using less gas. If you want to save the planet by SUV's and big trucks. The best thing you can do is to try to suck up all the oil available in the world as quickly as possible. That would then force a market change and bring on new vehicles. Until then I will happily run over you hybrid driving freaks in my Ford F-350, smilling at my 3 MPG usage and dancing as I stop every 30 min. for gas.
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spigtacular, 14 Oct 2005 @ 12:06pm

Re: don't be silly
I'm with you. I get 30+ miles per gallon in my 2004 grand am V6 so adding 15-20 grand to what i spent to get another 5-10 mpg dosen't seem like that much of a good idea. Also what is the environmental impact of all those old batteries in say 8-15 years?
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s, 14 Oct 2005 @ 12:27pm

Re: False Advertising
the new braking systems use kinetic energy to create electricity. kinetic energy is nothing more than the energy from motion. instead of wasting kinetic energy by letting it convert to heat, regenerative braking systems convert it to electricity via a generator.

and magnets are used in motors and generators to create either energy (motion) or electricity.

so use the combination of a motor and a generator to recycle energy by converting motion to electricity and electricy to motion. by recyling as much as possible you use less fuel.

which is using both kinetic energy and electromagnetic physics.
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googly_eyes, 14 Oct 2005 @ 12:38pm

EPA Averages
From what I have read, the EPA averages are not based on driving the car. I remember the article that said that the numbers are generated based on the emmisions from the tailpipe of the car.

Yep, you read that right - they calculate the "average" based on emmisions during some test cycle where the car isn't moved, so it should come as no surprise that their calculations are not geared to take into account the boost from the electric motor.

This has the effect of screwing up the calculations, and hence the bad numbers on the sticker.

A real world test, or at last a formula that can adjust for electric motor boost would obviously be a good idea.
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who knows, 14 Oct 2005 @ 3:46pm

????
when is the government going to start telling people how to drive? what a easy and low cost way to reduce oil consumption. and they havent done it...
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Pericles, 14 Oct 2005 @ 6:41pm

Re: Liberal / Environmental / Cheap Bastards
Yeah good job, suck up all of the world's oil....brilliant; now why didn't the world leaders think of that earlier? Oh! I know! Maybe oil is used for a few other things besides our just luvly SUV's and sports cars. Try considering that people need to heat there homes, businesses need to be able run machinery, equipment, what have you on oil-based products, not just gasoline mind you. You need to realize that when the time does come for the market to accept another alternative to oil, there won't be much of a market left. The economy will suffer far before any high level leaders decide that maybe something should be done to help promote alternative fuel supplies. To be brief, we need to conserve as much oil as possible, we need to hold out long enough so that we can wait for our procrastinating politicians.
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Anonymous of Course, 16 Oct 2005 @ 10:02am

Re: EPA Averages
The last two automobiles I've purchased have on average met the EPA numbers for highway and city milage. The current vehicle, a VW Golf TDI, gets 47mpg average combined city/highway and I drive it with a lead foot. If I drive to get good milage on the highway, I can make mid 50's mpg. No batteries, reasonable purchase price, /very/ economical to operate. The turbo diesel is the way to go for now.
All electric or hydrogen powered cars with the electricity/hydrogen derived from hydro power or (gasp!) nuclear is probably the way in the future. Anything else is just burning the same old fuels by proxy, with dubious improvments in efficiency.
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Nick, 31 Oct 2005 @ 9:26am

Re: don't be silly
Faggot
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Lance Yedersberger, 15 Jan 2006 @ 3:36pm

Highlander Hybrid
I bought a brand new toyota hybrid hylander and am not impressed so far.

I have had it for 1 week, drove about 350 miles and got 20 miles per gallon. Perhaps there needs some breakin period but 20mpg is pathetic for what they charge as a premium on this vehicle.

Today, Sunday I go out to my garage and the car will not start. I simple get a engine sign that says in the handbood to take it to the dealer. You can't even take it out of park. Stuck on Sunday with a vehicale you can't even push let alone start and the dealer is closed, all this for $41k.

I am very unhappy with this performance, to the extent I called my sale rep at the toyota dealer and suggested he check on giving my my money back and I look at other vehicles. I specifically asked to speak to a toyota rep.

VERY DISSATISFIED WITH THIS TOYOTA HYBRID HIGHLANDER. It is rather pathetic actually.
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Peter H, 14 Apr 2006 @ 2:06pm

Happy with my hybrid!
Bad luck with the Highlander, but I can report I am very happy with my Ford Escape Hybrid which I have had since March 2005. Mileage always around 30mpg (the AWD version, for which EPA figure is 29mpg combined). No mechanical problems and I enjoy driving it.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2006 @ 9:51am

On a sidenote:

Has anybody thought about the value of a used hybrid car? Who's going to buy one knowing that the battery needs to be replaced at a high cost. That fact alone is going to make used hybrids resale value go way down. It's not like some used car dealership is going to replace the batteries for free and plus where do all of the used batteries go. Personally, I think the US ought to be developing real alternative fuels and vehicles and not some stupid hybrid.
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Lee Pickett, 22 May 2006 @ 9:22am

gas mileage
Well call me old fashioned but here goes. In 1994 I purchased a well worn 1969 Plymouth Valiant with a 225 slant six and set to restoring the thing mechanically to perfection. Removed all the emission controls, (you can do that legally here in TN) put in a high torque cam, (other wise known as an RV cam) rebuilt the engine with gapless rings, capacitor discharge ignition module, retaining the points and inserting a low rpm stall torque converter. I already enjoy 21 mpg in pure around town driving and that is with an automatic transmission. But Wait! (as they say in the commercials) I plan on making a high velocity low rpm intake manifold with twin carbs, and splitting the exhaust into dual exhausts, (all to promote a torque peak of 1500 rpm, are your eyes crossed yet?) When finished, I believe that around town mileage will go to 28 mpg and road mileage will go to 33 mpg. The process is not rocket science, and the car is so simple that I can work on it and replace met parts are very low in cost, if they break at all! Nobody wants a Plymouth Valiant, so it won't be stolen, with primer paint it is well preserved and everybody is afraid to get close to it for fear of it hitting them, I just get great gas mileage. Everyone else is paying out the wazoo for a hybrid that doesn't measure up or swinging from station to station spending $45.00 for a fill up. It is pitiful that America has this fashion/speed need to be fashonable in the latest and fastest on the road with the latest lowerfasterwiderlongerchromierbelchfire car. Some even feel sorry for me as I put- put by in my primerpaint Valiant. They don't know I'm going to the bank!
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Jay M, 22 Jul 2006 @ 4:15pm

Hybrid fuel mileage
1) Slow down
2) Keep the tires at the maximum tire pressure you can (allowing room for expansion when they heat up). Better yet... use nitro fill and keep them at about 5-8 psi higher than the normal 35 psi as directed by the door jam on your car).
3) use the simple techniques everyone knows about.. empty the excess weight out of the car, drive like you have an egg between your foot and the gas peddle (gentle exceleration) and
4) Here is one for ya.... wax the car! The air flows much more smoothly over the waxed paint than the dirt! If a full Pepsi can slides off the car you know the air is passing by much more easily!

I get 52-57 mpg consistently with my 2005 Honda Civc Hybrid when I run at 60 mph and I am not using the A/C.
I'm lucky however in that I live in south Florida and the land is flat. I don't have to climb mountains.

One thing I have noticed is that I can put the car in neutral about a mile before an exit ramp and the car maintains the speed very well all the way to the end of the exit ramp. I consider these "coasting" miles - "free miles".

If people would just get up 5 minutes earlier and simply drive the speed limit we would all save gas and lives.

Jay Morin
Boynton Beach, FL
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thee radical eclectic, 12 Sep 2006 @ 8:12am

fussin mussin and trussin
Ideally we would all recognize that cars are an unnecessary psychological extension which have crept into our lives to separate us from the real
essences of life which are those people we avoid when we roll up the window or move thousands of miles to be away from. Realistically however the conveniences and excesses that operating a car afford each of us daily make us pretend like anyone who doesnt have a car or know much about operating one must be an idiot simply because they have chosen according to what is right for themselves. I'm thinkin lifeted trucks have a lot to do with kids not getting the attention or support they need to really learn math 9 times out of 10 but i dont yell out my window, 'Does your kid need a tutor?' or 'Are you happy with the rising national debt?' because its clear we dont relate in values.

Admit it folks... we pass judgement on people in subtle ways if we see them walking down the side of the road carrying things or just because their choice of a car would predetermine facts of the life they live. Sometimes i drive the wagoneer with checkerboard inserts in the woody panels just because its the best guy for the job, but that doesnt mean i havent done all the homework for converting it to biodiesel or upgrading to a multi-purpose vehicle that gets better mileage... its really all about what is readily available and it certainly all boils down to how one transitions in speed and finance as was stated.

I would wager on my guess that if people saw cars as a priviledge and responsibility which was not easily replacable or obtainable then owning a car and how one drove it would be like walking your grandmother through the park. Just consider if it must be shared and handed down 2-3 generations how the whole market and conservation issue would bottom end into a healthier environment where people and their social impact would become the means by which the world became a better place.

Imagine what its like to be a fourth generation custom bicycle builder in a Los Angeles bike club where time put into the frame and forks was a matter of honor and artistry or try living as a member of a family in Cuba that has a really cool customized Studebaker that is used for special occasions very seldomly but shared as a matter of signature within the community while biking and busing is deferred to for primary day to day transport. Either of these scenarios would give you lots more time to really change the lives of the next generation and be honored for what you have worked on and given to others. If nothing else life would become full of better communications and more clean air.

Basically its become clear to me that riding a vespa is adequate for 70-80% of inner city events if the weather is good and the mileage is something like 100 mpg. While riding a bike can be a great way to tone your body or slip in and out of a variety of terrain, nobody wants you coming to work stinkin.

To sum it up I would have to say that the choice of controlling oneself for the lives of their children and the future lives of their children at least recognizes how the values of compassion and reproductin respect natural cycles as opposed to someone threatening to run me over in their SUV which is more and more seeming like a welcome relief in this ever increasingly blind world of bureaucracy where predatorial instinct is culminating in cannibalistic ignorance which is fed by increasingly meaningless consumerism which leads us further away from life and its cyclical wisdom.

Call me a deer in the headlights but dont be surprised when that moose stops your truck cold and then tramples you in the quiet of an isolated snow bank or the polar bear rips off your door and eats you whole. Sometimes its just better to stay at home in the treehouse.

All in good fun guys and gills...
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Dan, 26 Dec 2006 @ 9:39pm

Re: don't be silly
Live in cold Colorado. Due to the weather my milege dropped 4 miles per gallon.
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Jim Lawrence, 5 Jan 2007 @ 1:28pm

Toyota Hybrid Mileage
I made the unfortunate mistake of buying a 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid, expecting to improve my "in-town" gas mileage. Window sticker advertises 31 mpg. I have been unable to get more than 23 mpg. Didn't expect to get 31, but sure thought I would be in the 27-28 range.
Dealer tells me everything's okay and that I have to allow the vehicle to "learn my driving habits". How about that for a technical answer. Nothing in the manual or pre-buying literature stated that the vehicle has to "learn" how I drive. If such a statement were true, then my Highlander is stupid, because it's been "learning" for over ten months and hasn't learned a thing.
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Paul, 2 Mar 2007 @ 3:54pm

Toyota Hybrid Highlander
Purchased a new 07 in Dec 06. Getting 22/23 mpg. Had it in for the problem but service said there was no problem. The salesman said it was probably my driving. I asked for him to take me for a drive around town and show me how to drive it. I also told him that if he could get a minimum of 27 mph (without getting out to push it), I would give him a $100.00 bill. If he didn't get at least that amount he did not owe me a thing. He must know something because he refused my offer. Spoke to an attorney. Will see where this goes. Maybe we should look at a class action lawsuit.
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Dan Cavazzini, 13 Mar 2007 @ 7:49pm

Re: Highlander Hybrid
I am in the same situation. I have 21k miles and have avg 21.4 mpg. I too spent 40K. I have just received an answer from the NY State Attorney General's office accepting my request for a Lemon Law arbitration hearing.Have you received any other comments from other dissatisfied highlander hybid owners ?

Dan
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karissa, 14 May 2007 @ 2:13pm

BOOOOO
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Your site sucks
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kari, 14 May 2007 @ 2:14pm

BOOOOO
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Your site sucks
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Hank Maiden, 15 May 2007 @ 12:54am

hybrid and other lessons
Thanks, people, for writing your hearts out.
An egg and I do not always survive, except as an omelette.
How come?
Defensive driving, learned as a trucker, requires continuous adjustments.
On long hauls, staying away from traffic is a good option.
By that I suggest that slow driving can be hazardous to other drivers and oneself.
Fast driving may not be hazardous, but a consequence is lower miles per gallon.
Jerks and nerds are equally to be avoided on the road.
On first trip of three thousand miles, the average was a strong 46 mpg in
2003 Honda hybrid, with one tankfull giving 50 mpg.
An upcoming trip of similar length offers a new opportunity to feather
the accelerator, use the transmission for deceleration, and stay in the
60 to 70 mph speed range on those hard driving freeways.
Perhaps the two of us driving can agree on best ways to achieve higher gas mileage.
That sure would ease the stress of the trip.
Hey people, keep blogging.
It is one of the most exhilirating aspects of a democracy.
Hank Maiden
Sequim, WA
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hi, 16 May 2007 @ 9:50am

boooo
hi boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! Hannah montana Rocks so much more than you
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Jo, 15 Oct 2007 @ 2:00pm

Re: Highlander Hybrid
Lance, how is the Highlander Hybrid doing since you last bought it? I think that a class action suit should be brought. My mileage is 17 in the winter on the highway here in the Midwest. No one will do anything, so I am starting arbitration. Comments?
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Jo, 15 Oct 2007 @ 2:08pm

Re: Toyota Hybrid Highlander
Im IN if a class action suit is to be filed. I am going into arbitration now.
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Ann, 5 Nov 2007 @ 3:02pm

poor mpg on Highlander hybrid
My Highlander was getting great mileage with speeds of under 40mph. Now it's suddenly only getting 22mpg (not using a/c or heat). I get better mileage on highway driving (27 mpg). I was told it the "winter gas mix" they're selling now, or using the "heat" in the car. Funny, I was using lots of air condtioning in the summer and I was getting 30mpg. I think something is wrong with the hybrid system, but all I get is fantastic theories from the dealership.
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Ann, 5 Nov 2007 @ 3:09pm

Re: Re: Highlander Hybrid
I'm in Massachusetts and bought my Highlander hybrid/lemon at Acton Toyota. They think 22/23 mpg is acceptable. I'm interested in requesting a refund via the lemon law here too.
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from the north eh?, 20 Nov 2007 @ 6:40pm

I`m so wealthy I can throw in two cents I suppose
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from the north eh?, 20 Nov 2007 @ 6:51pm

I`m so wealthy I can throw in two cents I suppose
I`m a mechanic at a nissan dealer. After our first hybrid sat on the lot for a year I priced it. After $3500 rebate from government it cost me about the same as a 2.5 altima, only faster, and better mileage. I didn`t buy it to save the world or to delude myself into thinking I`d get it back in gas prices. I like the car. Keep your fat sweaty ass planted in that f150 if you like, burn all the gas you like but what do these idiots gain bashing hybrids and conscious thinking people who are open minded enough to try them? Maybe they`re just jealous that they can`t budget responsibly and come here to pump themselves up. Oh well. I get 6.8L average per 100km (metric so`s the rednecks can`t figure it out like a secret code eh?)
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