Complaints About Hybrid Mileage? Blame The Driver!
from the seems-like-a-user-interface-problem dept
Over the past few years there have been a number of complaints from hybrid car owners that the vehicles don't get anywhere near the mileage claimed. Considering that's a big part of the reason many buy hybrids, it really seems to upset owners -- especially when you factor in that the higher price of hybrids is almost impossible to make up in cost savings from the better mileage. While some have blamed the difference on the way in which official mileage numbers are calculated, some are blaming it on the drivers themselves. So, it appears that some hybrid makers are trying to fix this issue by teaching hybrid car owners how to drive more efficiently. While this does make some sense, it seems like a problem with the design if you have to drive it differently just to get anywhere near the advertised mileage.
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don't be silly
For instance, most people either take off much too quickly at green lights or much too slowly. There's a pretty big sweet spot in that regard, and most people don't hit it. And if you happen to be behind one of the too slow idiots, you're going to be too slow, unless you have the patience to wait a few seconds so that you can accelerate properly.
Conversly, most people don't know how to properly approach red lights or other stops. That's where I could see the hybrids being a little different, where you'd want to ride the brakes (perhaps) a little more than normal to help build up the charge. In fact, you'll get better mileage in stop-and-go traffic than you will with a gasoline engine.
To be sure, the design of these things does need to get better and more efficient, but not because people don't know how to drive them. I think it's a great idea that the manufacturers are wanting to teach customers how to properly use their investment. Most people will either not take advantage of it, or will ignore it within a couple of weeks then complain how they got good mileage at first, but now it's going back down and they bet those damn manufacturers made it that way.
Rob Miles
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Re: don't be silly
Rob Miles
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and furthermore, people that slam on the gas and brakes as there way to drive should all get their licence taken away for wasting so much gas. when i see a big suv doing that i want to reach out and choke the person behind the wheel.
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Re: don't be silly
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No, Just The Standard Problem Exacerbated
I rented a Prius for a week in 2002 in the Bay Area.
First, driving behavior affects mileage in every car. Hybrids magnify the effect. Heck, if my Ford Explorer had the real-time mileage graphs of that Prius, I could probably get 10-20% better mileage just based on the graphs. It's only when you can see the effects that you really appreciate the mileage impacts, of, say, running the air conditioning, or driving aggressively.
Next, the EPA's numbers are hogwash. Visit any Prius forum and you'll see the real-world values. Why are the EPA's numbers hogwash? Beats me. But you can't blame the hybrid car makers for using them. For starters, they're hogwash for every car — the discrepancy is magnified in a hybrid for some reason. Everybody else advertises with the inflated EPA values; hybrid manufacturers would put themselves at a disadvantage if they unilaterally elected to use something else. Besides, I think they have to put EPA mileage on the sticker by law.
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Re: No, Just The Standard Problem Exacerbated
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Re: No, Just The Standard Problem Exacerbated
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Depends on where you drive too
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Re: Depends on where you drive too
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Get out of my way hybrid
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Re: Get out of my way hybrid
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Liberal / Environmental / Cheap Bastards
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Re: Liberal / Environmental / Cheap Bastards
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Maximizing MPG In A Prius
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Re: Maximizing MPG In A Prius
It's strange to compare MPG perceptions from the US (where I guess you are) and the UK (where I am)
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Re: Maximizing MPG In A Prius
It's strange to compare MPG perceptions from the US (where I guess you are) and the UK (where I am). I've been getting high 40's MPH in may last few cars, none of which was a hybrid - either 1.6l petrol or 2.0l turbo diesel. Performance was fine, without the gas guzzling that comes with a huge US-style engine
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Re: Maximizing MPG In A Prius
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Hybrid cars
Hybrids do operate differently than non-hybrid vehicles - they have to. The current state of technology for batteries and gas engines dictates the optimum interface of the two under different driving conditions. Hybrids have sophisticated computer programs that govern this interface to optimize performance and fuel economy but the driver always has the last word. So if you want to put your foot to the floor every time you take off from a stop, yes you will burn more gas and get poorer fuel economy. But since you paid more money for a hybrid (presumably to get better fuel economy), doesn't it make sense to do everything reasonable to help yourself out? Just a little less pressure on the accelerator pedal from a stop keeps the hybrid in an electric motor- only mode, thus saving gas. Many drivers would not realize this without being told.
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The MPG you get is based on how you drive
The Toyota (and Ford, which licensed Toyota's technology) hybrids have a much different engine setup than the Hondas. This is why the Prius has a better city rating than hiway. Coming to a stop can be a little different in a hybrid, generally we want to slow down over a longer period to maximize the regenerative braking. Truck drivers often do this as well because if coming to a stop light you have a better chance of still being moving when it turns green.
And for those of you who just have to do 80 down the freeway, you're only taking your aggression out on your wallet. I pay less than $30 a week to fill up my tank and drive over 600 miles.
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Hybrid Hell
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It's largely expectations causing frustration
On average we get about 25mpg on our highlander, we test drove 3 ford escapes, none of them got better then 18mpg and it has a much smaller engine. First gen vs. second gen tech I guess, but it was so bad we where almost happy to spend the extra cash on the Highlander.
The other folks I know all report the same sort of thing. The advertised difference is so huge compared to the variance and the little things (like save a bit by no ac etc, but then who drives like that?) to still be laughable.
Honestly I think they should be required by law ot advertise real world numbers that are accurate, and not wishful ideal thinking that nobody will ever come close to approaching. Normal mileage on non hybrids seems to be accurate withing a couple gallons given variables, hybrids should at least be that close, instead of double or triple or worse.
Yes their are things that make a difference and it helps to know things but that is only a small piece of bigger puzzle.
The crappy ancient old Honda civic we replaced got much better mileage then the Escape does real world and a bit better then our Highlander, but it was not super low emissions. At the end of the day the super low admission rating is the right reason to get the hybrid not just better millage, IMO.
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No Subject Given
Sure, new models and new technology are always going to be more expensive; that part of the equation is clear. What seems ridiculous, though, is that only you wealthy people can afford to drive hybrids. For you, the gas-money savings might be the difference between a good steak dinner at a fine restaurant and a good steak dinner at just a good restaurant. For me, it's more like the difference between eating and not eating.
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One Real World EPA Example.
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hybrids? meh.
2)E-85 would help reduce fuel usage and lower gas prices as well. Why don't we have it in California?
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False Advertising
Yeah everyone, it's called " FALSE ADVERTISING "
They don't test under real driving conditions so all you tree hugging suck wads can bite me while I enjoy my economical sooped up Miata GASOLINE auto ...
People that drive hybrids just " think " they are doing the world a favor ... something else had to produce the electric & chances are it was coal.
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Re: False Advertising
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Re: False Advertising
While it's clear that every car would be more fuel efficient if hybrid technology were added to it, it is not yet clear that it would financially effiecnt.
Until the price of hybrid technology drops to the point where it's just a $1200 engine option, the only thing hybrids will be saving is gasoline, not money.
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perhaps looking up something like electromagnetic energy on google would be a start. maybe try kinetic energy.
those new fangled hybrids don't have extra trunk space to carry their own coal do they?
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and magnets are used in motors and generators to create either energy (motion) or electricity.
so use the combination of a motor and a generator to recycle energy by converting motion to electricity and electricy to motion. by recyling as much as possible you use less fuel.
which is using both kinetic energy and electromagnetic physics.
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The False Advertising Claims
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EPA Averages
Yep, you read that right - they calculate the "average" based on emmisions during some test cycle where the car isn't moved, so it should come as no surprise that their calculations are not geared to take into account the boost from the electric motor.
This has the effect of screwing up the calculations, and hence the bad numbers on the sticker.
A real world test, or at last a formula that can adjust for electric motor boost would obviously be a good idea.
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Re: EPA Averages
All electric or hydrogen powered cars with the electricity/hydrogen derived from hydro power or (gasp!) nuclear is probably the way in the future. Anything else is just burning the same old fuels by proxy, with dubious improvments in efficiency.
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????
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Highlander Hybrid
I have had it for 1 week, drove about 350 miles and got 20 miles per gallon. Perhaps there needs some breakin period but 20mpg is pathetic for what they charge as a premium on this vehicle.
Today, Sunday I go out to my garage and the car will not start. I simple get a engine sign that says in the handbood to take it to the dealer. You can't even take it out of park. Stuck on Sunday with a vehicale you can't even push let alone start and the dealer is closed, all this for $41k.
I am very unhappy with this performance, to the extent I called my sale rep at the toyota dealer and suggested he check on giving my my money back and I look at other vehicles. I specifically asked to speak to a toyota rep.
VERY DISSATISFIED WITH THIS TOYOTA HYBRID HIGHLANDER. It is rather pathetic actually.
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Re: Highlander Hybrid
Dan
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Happy with my hybrid!
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Has anybody thought about the value of a used hybrid car? Who's going to buy one knowing that the battery needs to be replaced at a high cost. That fact alone is going to make used hybrids resale value go way down. It's not like some used car dealership is going to replace the batteries for free and plus where do all of the used batteries go. Personally, I think the US ought to be developing real alternative fuels and vehicles and not some stupid hybrid.
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gas mileage
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Hybrid fuel mileage
2) Keep the tires at the maximum tire pressure you can (allowing room for expansion when they heat up). Better yet... use nitro fill and keep them at about 5-8 psi higher than the normal 35 psi as directed by the door jam on your car).
3) use the simple techniques everyone knows about.. empty the excess weight out of the car, drive like you have an egg between your foot and the gas peddle (gentle exceleration) and
4) Here is one for ya.... wax the car! The air flows much more smoothly over the waxed paint than the dirt! If a full Pepsi can slides off the car you know the air is passing by much more easily!
I get 52-57 mpg consistently with my 2005 Honda Civc Hybrid when I run at 60 mph and I am not using the A/C.
I'm lucky however in that I live in south Florida and the land is flat. I don't have to climb mountains.
One thing I have noticed is that I can put the car in neutral about a mile before an exit ramp and the car maintains the speed very well all the way to the end of the exit ramp. I consider these "coasting" miles - "free miles".
If people would just get up 5 minutes earlier and simply drive the speed limit we would all save gas and lives.
Jay Morin
Boynton Beach, FL
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fussin mussin and trussin
essences of life which are those people we avoid when we roll up the window or move thousands of miles to be away from. Realistically however the conveniences and excesses that operating a car afford each of us daily make us pretend like anyone who doesnt have a car or know much about operating one must be an idiot simply because they have chosen according to what is right for themselves. I'm thinkin lifeted trucks have a lot to do with kids not getting the attention or support they need to really learn math 9 times out of 10 but i dont yell out my window, 'Does your kid need a tutor?' or 'Are you happy with the rising national debt?' because its clear we dont relate in values.
Admit it folks... we pass judgement on people in subtle ways if we see them walking down the side of the road carrying things or just because their choice of a car would predetermine facts of the life they live. Sometimes i drive the wagoneer with checkerboard inserts in the woody panels just because its the best guy for the job, but that doesnt mean i havent done all the homework for converting it to biodiesel or upgrading to a multi-purpose vehicle that gets better mileage... its really all about what is readily available and it certainly all boils down to how one transitions in speed and finance as was stated.
I would wager on my guess that if people saw cars as a priviledge and responsibility which was not easily replacable or obtainable then owning a car and how one drove it would be like walking your grandmother through the park. Just consider if it must be shared and handed down 2-3 generations how the whole market and conservation issue would bottom end into a healthier environment where people and their social impact would become the means by which the world became a better place.
Imagine what its like to be a fourth generation custom bicycle builder in a Los Angeles bike club where time put into the frame and forks was a matter of honor and artistry or try living as a member of a family in Cuba that has a really cool customized Studebaker that is used for special occasions very seldomly but shared as a matter of signature within the community while biking and busing is deferred to for primary day to day transport. Either of these scenarios would give you lots more time to really change the lives of the next generation and be honored for what you have worked on and given to others. If nothing else life would become full of better communications and more clean air.
Basically its become clear to me that riding a vespa is adequate for 70-80% of inner city events if the weather is good and the mileage is something like 100 mpg. While riding a bike can be a great way to tone your body or slip in and out of a variety of terrain, nobody wants you coming to work stinkin.
To sum it up I would have to say that the choice of controlling oneself for the lives of their children and the future lives of their children at least recognizes how the values of compassion and reproductin respect natural cycles as opposed to someone threatening to run me over in their SUV which is more and more seeming like a welcome relief in this ever increasingly blind world of bureaucracy where predatorial instinct is culminating in cannibalistic ignorance which is fed by increasingly meaningless consumerism which leads us further away from life and its cyclical wisdom.
Call me a deer in the headlights but dont be surprised when that moose stops your truck cold and then tramples you in the quiet of an isolated snow bank or the polar bear rips off your door and eats you whole. Sometimes its just better to stay at home in the treehouse.
All in good fun guys and gills...
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Toyota Hybrid Mileage
Dealer tells me everything's okay and that I have to allow the vehicle to "learn my driving habits". How about that for a technical answer. Nothing in the manual or pre-buying literature stated that the vehicle has to "learn" how I drive. If such a statement were true, then my Highlander is stupid, because it's been "learning" for over ten months and hasn't learned a thing.
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Toyota Hybrid Highlander
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Re: Toyota Hybrid Highlander
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BOOOOO
Your site sucks
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BOOOOO
Your site sucks
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hybrid and other lessons
An egg and I do not always survive, except as an omelette.
How come?
Defensive driving, learned as a trucker, requires continuous adjustments.
On long hauls, staying away from traffic is a good option.
By that I suggest that slow driving can be hazardous to other drivers and oneself.
Fast driving may not be hazardous, but a consequence is lower miles per gallon.
Jerks and nerds are equally to be avoided on the road.
On first trip of three thousand miles, the average was a strong 46 mpg in
2003 Honda hybrid, with one tankfull giving 50 mpg.
An upcoming trip of similar length offers a new opportunity to feather
the accelerator, use the transmission for deceleration, and stay in the
60 to 70 mph speed range on those hard driving freeways.
Perhaps the two of us driving can agree on best ways to achieve higher gas mileage.
That sure would ease the stress of the trip.
Hey people, keep blogging.
It is one of the most exhilirating aspects of a democracy.
Hank Maiden
Sequim, WA
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boooo
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poor mpg on Highlander hybrid
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I`m so wealthy I can throw in two cents I suppose
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I`m so wealthy I can throw in two cents I suppose
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