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Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware Is A Federal Crime?

from the just-wondering dept

Tue, Dec 20th 2005 3:42pm — Mike Masnick

For years there have been questions about modifying video game boxes and whether or not it should really be a crime. After all, if you bought something, historically, that meant you owned it -- and you could modify it however you wanted. Thanks to lovely laws like the DMCA, however, that's no longer true. Federal prosecutors have now charged three men with copyright infringement for selling modified Xboxes. In some cases, it appears they were also selling copied games stored on these modified Xboxes -- which is copyright infringement. However, the charges should be for that, alone, and not for modifying the boxes. Unfortunately, because of the copied games, many people won't break out the two issues, but there are important distinctions, and it's an important legal issue if you believe that you should actually own what you bought.

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BJC (profile), 20 Dec 2005 @ 3:57pm

No Subject Given
I modded my Xbox so I could run Xbox Media Centre, a free, open-source program developed to allow people to use their Xboxes as a home media player.

Modding for me added features that Microsoft either should have included or should have embraced as something that added value (and sales!) to their systems.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Steve, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:12pm

No Problem
The modifying itself isn't the problem it's the legality of the end product.

If I own a shotgun, I can put any type of grips and sights I want on it and no one cares. If I shorten the barrel below 16" I now have an illegal firearm. But it's the possession of the illegal firearm thats the problem, not the act of modifying the item.

The real question should be is a modified x-box legal to own.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Brian, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:25pm

It's not so much the mod chip...
as the 77 pirated games they included in the deal. That's blatant copyright infringement. This is, for once, correct use of the DMCA.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
DittoBox, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:27pm

Re: No Problem
If I own a shotgun, I can put any type of grips and sights I want on it and no one cares.

I do! I was under the impression that with a shotgun one doesn't need sights!

To me, owning a modified item isn't wrong. It's what you do with that modified item that matters. Say I own a hammer, it's a simple tool, deadly in and of itself, it's even more deadly when I sharpen the head to a point. But what if all I'm doing is using the hammer to fix things that are my own and smashing in people's faces with it?

A modified hammer isn't illegal but if a few people get killed by it their family's would lobby for a law against it.

The entire issue is how much society and/or the individual can be trusted over the corporation or the government.

Frankly I trust the individual and society more than I trust an large corporation or government.
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Michael, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:33pm

It's not the mod...
I don't think the issue is even in owning the modified xbox.

Here, the case was against someone who is selling an xbox that has been modified specifically to play pirated games.

The referenced article says they were charged with conspiracy to commit copyright infringement.

I don't see this article implying that it's illegal to have a modified xbox. I see saying that it's illegal to sell a product that's been modified to do something that's illegal.

There is actually only a small part of the article that talks about the pirated games they would pre-load...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John Harman, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:41pm

No Subject Given
Blatant violations. They modified the XBOX's prior to selling not to mention the copied games.
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Justin, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:42pm

Re: No Problem
You're a moron. This is a gaming system!!! NOT A SHOTGUN!! Nobody's gonna die...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sv, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:44pm

Re: No Problem
"But it's the possession of the illegal firearm thats the problem, not the act of modifying the item. The real question should be is a modified x-box legal to own."

Well let's see... what are the odds of killing someone with your modded XBox?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Bruce Cheshire, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:48pm

Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware Is
By that logic, should I be able to modify software I bought and rightfully own and turn around sell the modified software without it being a crime?

Couldn't the hardware scenario fall within the realm of patent infringement perhaps?

The title of the paragraph would be better served if it was something like: "Please Explain Why Modifying Hardware You Bought and Selling It Is A Federal Crime?"
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Jonathan, 20 Dec 2005 @ 4:56pm

Re: No Problem
Just so you know... a shotgun can shoot slugs (a bullet that is more traditional as opposed to the scatter shot) and I could see someone using a sight with a slug.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:00pm

XBox Mod
If you bought an Xbox and then mod it and only use it for your own pleasure I feel thats ok. To mod a console and then sell it for profit....then pass go and off to jail....
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike (profile), 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:04pm

Re: XBox Mod
If you bought an Xbox and then mod it and only use it for your own pleasure I feel thats ok. To mod a console and then sell it for profit....then pass go and off to jail....

Hmm. Why?

If I buy a chair and paint it... and then sell it for profit, should I go to jail?

What if I buy a computer, and add in a TV tuner and WiFi and more memory and sell it for profit?

Go to jail?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:05pm

No Subject Given
Selling an X-Box with a load of copied games installed on the hard-drive is, and always has been, both illegal and stupid. Pre and post DMCA. Just like selling a Commodore 64 in the '80s with a box full of copied 5 1/4" game disks would have been illegal.
It's the reason that the DMCA is a ridiculous law. The actual crimes it was intended to stop were already illegal... and it makes a bunch of competely reasonable behaviors a crime.
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Mike (profile), 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:06pm

Re: Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware
By that logic, should I be able to modify software I bought and rightfully own and turn around sell the modified software without it being a crime?

Software does go by different rules, for a variety of reasons. The issue here is modifying hardware, which has always been allowed.

As I mentioned in my previous comment, any other tangible good I buy and modify I'm allowed to sell for a profit (furniture, computers, etc.). Why not an Xbox?
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Mark Shanson, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:07pm

No Subject Given
I really could care less about the DCMA. If I want an xbox thats modded, then I'm going to have one. (And I DO)

Reasons I own a modded XboX
1. Media Center
2. Bigger hard drive so I can add MY (bought for legally) to it so I dont have to shuffle through the 45+ games I own. The same for MY movies which I also bought legally.
3. My grandmother who lives in Europe buys me games for presents which I couldnt play using an un-moddified XboX.
4.Browsing the net. (so I dont have to power on my computer to check my email.)

Theres many more reasons to own a modded xbox which all are legal.

So if the DCMA wants to shit themselves and take completely off on me for this then BE MY GUEST.

I for one can show that everything done with my XboX is PERFECTLY legal.

Other then that, I have to aggree with the DCMA on the Cali guys who sold a modded XboX WITH 77 DAMN GAMES! You dont sell pirated software. Those guys are tottaly n00bz, and should be arrested for both the illegal activity AND their n00bness.

That done and said, I'd support the guys if it wasnt for that 77 pirated games B.S!
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Monkey Joe, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:11pm

Re: No Problem
So if i modify my Xbox to send a 240v charge into the users hand when he or she gets shot playing halo. Or modify it so it can send a huge voltage down the wire when playing online. This would be OK?

The joys of a political correct world where the government has to protect stupid americans from winning darwin awards.

If you don't like something create something better that does what you want it to.
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Sam, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:11pm

Ur missing the point
The point isn't that they are modding xbox's.

The whole "Using them to copy rented games" can be covered by just saying that they wanted it so they can put games they already own on the HDD to save load times.

The legality of it is that they are using Microsoft's technology, modding it a smidge, and then reselling it to make money. You can't use somebody else's technology and hard work and then make money off it for urself.
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plateau, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:18pm

Re: No Problem
Cell phone providers block certain features on the phones they provide so they can just flip various bits to change the functionality available. This allows them to use the same hardware and provide various trim levels, at different costs.

I can see the legal issues with performing mods on a cell phone to take advantage of features of a mobile that hasn't been paid for.

If there are similar situations on the XBOX, performing those mods should be illegal, IMHO.

The hardware is sold as a platform for software and services, allowing unrestricted modding takes away from Microsofts ability to sell those services. Without the ability to restrict mods, I would imagine Microsoft would have to sell the hardware for much more. It might help the legal issues if the hardware was sold outright as part of a service ... similar to a cable box.

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ehrichweiss, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:19pm

The ONLY thing that was illegal was..
them pre-loading the 77 games onto the boxes. Really, that's it. There's no law against modding the hardware no matter how hard they try to make you think that could be a violation of the DMCA there are still PS2 mod chips being sold every day and I haven't heard of the first "bust" regarding them.

It SOLELY has to do with the preloaded games. Nothing more. It has nothing to do with the modding other than as an incidental thing.
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dAVe, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:21pm

there IS a crime here!
the problem is the repackaging and reselling of hardware, which is an infringement. it's the same as selling modified cable boxes designed to unscramble unsubscribed channels.
if the guys wanted to remain within the bounds of the law, they would have sold mod chips only, maybe (maybe!) with install instructions.
afaik, no mod chip makers have ever been successfully sued in court...
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Mike (profile), 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:23pm

Re: Ur missing the point
The legality of it is that they are using Microsoft's technology, modding it a smidge, and then reselling it to make money. You can't use somebody else's technology and hard work and then make money off it for urself.

Again, that's not true at all. I can buy a computer, modify it, and resell it. What's illegal about that? They legally bought the Xbox before modifying it, so they don't owe Microsoft any more money for reselling it.
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haggie, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:23pm

No Subject Given
If the sole purpose of the mod was to enable copyright infringement, I would say that it is correct application of the DMCA. If there are non-infringing reasons for the mod (but also including possible infringement) it probably is a violation of the DMCA (although it shouldn't be in my opinion) and if the mod does not enable any infringing activity, the DMCA should NOT apply even if manufcturer or reseller doesn't like what you are doing with the modified box.

That's in a perfect world where judges understand copyright law and fair use and where individuals have as much influence as the largest corporations.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike (profile), 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:25pm

Re: there IS a crime here!

Again... (I'm repeating myself here....) why? Why is that infringement. Anything else I buy I can modify and resell. Modifying and reselling it doesn't break copyright law. Using the device to infringe copyrights does. These guys shouldn't be arrested for modding the box, but just for offering the unauthorized copies of games.
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Chris, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:29pm

Re: No Problem
You're a moron. This is a gaming system!!! NOT A SHOTGUN!! Nobody's gonna die... It's an analogy...you moron. "But it's the possession of the illegal firearm thats the problem, not the act of modifying the item. The real question should be is a modified x-box legal to own." Well let's see... what are the odds of killing someone with your modded XBox? Who said anything about killing? When companies first made shotguns did they have the intent to go around and kill everyone/thing that got it their way? No, I think not. But I dont know man, you have to watch out for those kill XBoxes. I was so scared of buying an XBox at first but you know, the sarcasm in your comment really gave me peace of mind. Thanks Back to the subject, the only thing illegal here is that he sold the XBox with 77 pirated games, not that it was modded.
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Alan, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:38pm

Re: No Problem
Because they believe that since you are buying something that can be intended for playing copied games that is the sole purpose of buying a modified product...they dont understand that a modded product adds functionality that should have been there in the first place...having the games preloaded is the only crime here...should of sold it on ebay and should have taken the games off of the system
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2005 @ 5:47pm

Re: It's not so much the mod chip...
as the 77 pirated games they included in the deal. That's blatant copyright infringement. This is, for once, correct use of the DMCA.
No, copyright infringment was illegal before the DMCA.
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Daniel DeZago, 20 Dec 2005 @ 6:00pm

modded xbox
I totally agree. No one would think of throwing me in jail because I put a turbocharger in my car. The general contractor or developer would not come after me because I upgraded the roof on my house. I should not be liable because I put a different hard drive or different processor into a video game console that I purchased. I did not have to sign a liscence agreement for the console. At the same time of course you should get busted for preloading that hard drive with games copied off of discs that those kids do not own. On a parallel note to that though I do not think that I should get in trouble for loading games that I legally have purchased onto my own hard drive if I had the technical know-how neither should someone that I pay to do that for me get in trouble.
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Ackphlat, 20 Dec 2005 @ 6:16pm

Re: No Problem
Not quite. Youe are required to have a gunsmith license in most states to modify the barrel of any weapon. Technically you cannot cut a 30" barrel down to 24". The feds have a problem with this also but I believe enforcement is left to the state.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Don Gray, 20 Dec 2005 @ 6:48pm

Re: No Problem
I call bullshit.
Which state do you need a license to cut a rifle barrel down from 30" to 24"?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2005 @ 6:50pm

Re: No Problem
"Well let's see... what are the odds of killing someone with your modded XBox?"
Actually, it's quite possible
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Scott, 20 Dec 2005 @ 6:54pm

Modifying your hardware - xbox
Mike, I think a distinction needs to be made between modifying hardware for personal use and modifying for resale. I concur that the former should be considered an inherent right as long as the innovation is not illegal in and of itself, as in some firearm mods., etc. The latter has dangerous business implications and should thus be regulated.
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Paul, 20 Dec 2005 @ 6:59pm

Re: Ur missing the point
You can though, think of all the people who mod or restore cars and then sell them for tons more than they were originally worth
houses even, what if you buy a house, remodle it then sell it for more
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Paul, 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:02pm

Re: No Problem
I'm not sure about requiring a license to shorten the barrel, but you're required to register and pay a hefty tax for owning a shortened shotgun
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Thomas, 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:03pm

Case to strengthen DMCA
These guys shouldn't be arrested for modding the box, but just for offering the unauthorized copies of games.
The reason they are able to invoke DMCA here is that the mod chip they sold **made it possible** to infringe on copyright. That portion of the DMCA is really shaky legally. I think the DMCA is being invoked here because these guys are clearly guilty of copyright infringement with the 77 pirate games. Microsoft is hoping to strengthen the weak provisions of DMCA by winning a case it is associated with, regardless of conviction/aquittal on the DMCA charges.
Don't get me wrong, I hate the DMCA as much anyone. I just see this as a strategy move to make the DMCA look better to the public, regardless of outcome. If they somehow manage to get convictions on the DMCA counts, well then they've strengthened its legal standing.
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Shane, 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:06pm

Re: Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware
By that logic, should I be able to modify software I bought and rightfully own and turn around sell the modified software without it being a crime?
Yes you should be able to modify software and resell it if you purchase a license for the original software for each distributed copy of the modified software. Same with the Xbox.The hardware is the license.
I believe this DMCA law to be an infringement on free enterprise.
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JP, 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:39pm

Re: Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware
So when I decide I've had enough of my Xbox and toss it out the window and destroy it, thus modifying its original purpose from gaming system to projectile, I can be sued? Like many before me have said, if I want to modify a piece of hardware I paid for, I should be able to do it. I can do so to almost anything else I buy, so why should there be a special set of rules for M$? I can modify my vehicles, my computers, my watches, my jewelry, my guns (to an extent, but that's a different ballgame), and countless other possessions of mine. Why should any product or company or group of people get their own special set of rules? Are they too good for everyone else?

It should matter what the government thinks the intent is for. They can bust the modder when, and only when, he actually uses it for illegal activity, such as copyright infringement.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
JP, 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:40pm

Re: Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware
So when I decide I've had enough of my Xbox and toss it out the window and destroy it, thus modifying its original purpose from gaming system to projectile, I can be sued? Like many before me have said, if I want to modify a piece of hardware I paid for, I should be able to do it. I can do so to almost anything else I buy, so why should there be a special set of rules for M$? I can modify my vehicles, my computers, my watches, my jewelry, my guns (to an extent, but that's a different ballgame), and countless other possessions of mine. Why should any product or company or group of people get their own special set of rules? Are they too good for everyone else?

It shouldn't matter what the government thinks the intent is for. They can bust the modder when, and only when, he actually uses it for illegal activity, such as copyright infringement.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Todd, 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:41pm

Guess that means every auto with a mod is subject
So every automobile that is modified and resold to someone other than the original owner is now subject to indictment. This sets a bad precedent and I can't see that holding up in court. I can see it voiding the warranty, but a crime? This is over the top and proving more and more that freedom is dying.
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JP, 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:41pm

Re: Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware
Sorry, typo. In the second paragraph, it should read "It shouldn't matter..."
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:52pm

Re: No Subject Given
We all know the story about XBOX modders being arrested, don't we? It'll be old news in a week.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike (profile), 20 Dec 2005 @ 7:56pm

Re: Modifying your hardware - xbox
Mike, I think a distinction needs to be made between modifying hardware for personal use and modifying for resale.

Why? As plenty of others have pointed out, modifying a car or a house or a computer and reselling it seems perfectly reasonable.

I concur that the former should be considered an inherent right as long as the innovation is not illegal in and of itself, as in some firearm mods., etc. The latter has dangerous business implications and should thus be regulated.

Again, I don't buy it. It has business model implications, sure... but since when is it the government's job to protect someone's business model? That's the job of the company alone. If their business model can't withstand what the market wants, then they need to change. Not have people arrested.
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Charlie, 20 Dec 2005 @ 8:24pm

Re: Modifying your hardware - xbox
All I have to say is children... get a couple and then you see why people want to have mod'd consoles and copied DVD's... grime and slime all over any disc they can find. I wish politicians had to worry about buying the same disc twice because you have your Halo 2 crushed in the VCR player.
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x_xbox_modder, 20 Dec 2005 @ 8:38pm

Re: Modifying your hardware - xbox
I used to mod boxes professionally. It's actually legal to mod a box with extra hardware (a mod chip). As soon as you change the bios to make the device BOOT to that mod chip though, it's illegal. Also if you change the software on the hard drive of the xbox at all (adding a different dashboard), it's illegal. I'm not saying it's right, but that is how all the stores that sell modded xboxes get around it...they do the hard part...the solderring and the actual openning and placing of the extra hardware in the box...but it's up to the user that recieves the box as to what they do with it when they get it. I never sent a modded xbox to anyone I knew with a bios other than the M$ bios and you had to find your own dashboard as well as how to install it properly.
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Landon, 20 Dec 2005 @ 8:46pm

Re: Modifying your hardware - xbox
Can someone please tell me or at least direct me on something that tells you how to mod an x-box in detail. I dont know what to buy, or what chip does what, blah blah blah.... Thanks.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
x_xbox_modder, 20 Dec 2005 @ 8:57pm

Re: Modifying your hardware - xbox
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=xbox+modding
[ link to this | view in thread ]
fredfrumppy, 20 Dec 2005 @ 8:59pm

Re: Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware
Patent infringement would be if you modified the product and sold it claiming that you had designed it without crediting the original designer, or without their permission. Also, to have a reasonable copyrights suet, you would have to actually be marketing the product on a large enough scale to hurt the original designer, not a few items on an underground market.
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Mawkus, 20 Dec 2005 @ 9:03pm

Re: Ur missing the point
1. The manufacturer of a tangable item sells the item at a profit.
2. You modify thier product and resell it for a profit
3. You do this over and over and over
4. This means more revenue and more profit for both the manufacturer and you.
5. Any manufacturer would be stupid to discourage this kind of activity.
And besides...
If microsoft didn't want me moding my X-Box they would use some of their $40,000,000,000 to make the x-box how I want it.
The only reason they haven't is because it doesn't hit the demographic they are wanting to sell to. Also, the market is not large enough.
So instead, they make the XP Media Center software, and make my PC talk to my X-Box across the network. This hits more of thier demographic and makes more sense for them as a company.
The only thing that needs to be watched is the unlicensed distribution of copyrighted material - The Games
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Landon, 20 Dec 2005 @ 11:12pm

Re: Modifying your hardware - xbox
Thank you so much for that valuable link, you would think that if I know how to use this site I would have already tried that? Now, can someone please recommend me a site that doesnt require me to........ Hahaha. That was what I originally typed, and then so I was sure I didnt sound like a jackass I double checked that google search. Out of all the google searches I tried, I must have missed that one. Thanks for the help. lol
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Jon, 20 Dec 2005 @ 11:31pm

No Subject Given
But what some of you are straying away from is the fact that there WERE illegal copies of games on the Xbox. That alone is where the problem lies. The fact that the people in question had to modify the Xbox to get the illegal copies on there is irrelevant. It's the illegal games that are the real issue.
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A Funny Guy, 20 Dec 2005 @ 11:54pm

No Subject Given
Ok that does it. I'm gonna mod my rear-end so that government will have easier access to kiss my A$$.
Again I say people. Passive rebellion is the key here. Ignore the law and to not comply. You folks with money...spend it and keep these freedom killers in court till they go broke.
The free people of a society will always have more resources than the MAN.

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McMerg, 21 Dec 2005 @ 12:02am

Re: Ur missing the point
Somewhat irrelevant but to be pedantic, many console systems - especially early in their life - are sold at a loss, with the intention of making the profit off the games sales. The Xbox, PSP, PS2, Xbox360, are all examples of this, and the PS3 will follow this path too.
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Mark, 21 Dec 2005 @ 1:41am

The point bein
How many people have actually looked at the EULA for an Xbox?

I do believe it says something about not modifying it for any purpose. In fact, they hide the screws and use a particular type of nut to *prevent* people from "MOD"ing the box.

Its no different than if you cracked open the case to a Dell computer, you would invalidate your waranty, which is what the whole issue about modding is about. Modded Xbox's (and computers in general that are sold "as a package") aren't covered by a waranty. If you mod the xbox and use it for personal use, there is no legality.

The lawsuit was about the 77 games, not the modded xbox.
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Mike, 21 Dec 2005 @ 5:20am

Re: No Problem
I modded my Shotgun to play Xbox games.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
FireMonkey, 21 Dec 2005 @ 6:51am

Another analogy
Last year I bought a Mitsubishi Eclipse. Once it was mine (I paid cash), I heavily modified the engine, and now it runs on high octane racing fuel and has a Nitrous kit installed. I also gutted the interior and added a lightweight racing seat with a 5 point harness. I changed the hood and some body panels to carbon fiber to even further cut down on the weight. Now it's a race-read machine... This thing can do over 200MPH, which is obviously not legal. Just owning the car and driving it to the grocery store at 25MPH (like I do *wink*) is perfectly legal, though...

Now I have the car up for sale. And you're telling me that I can go to jail for selling a car that MIGHT be used to brek the law?!?

note: I agree that selling pirated games was wrong, and I hope he gets convicted for that crime - but ONLY that crime, and not for selling modified hardware.)
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Ben, 21 Dec 2005 @ 7:12am

Re: The point bein
Thank you Mark. Someone finaly got the point.

Its illegal because the EULA of the XBOX says you can't mod it FOR ANY REASON. Your not supposed to even open the Xbox, thats why they hide the screws. Game consoles aren't like computers because you Aren't aloud to mod them. its not like a PC, game consoles have different laws than PCs. the only place your aloud to mod a system is Australia, and thats only the PS2.

To some it may not seem like a far way to do things, its how the game market has always been. and it will probably always be that way. i know some people mod the system and use it legally, but mod'ing a system is like mod'ing software becuase your changing how the system and software function. with a mod'ed system you can rent or borrow games and own them forever.

if you want to compare it to a gun, adding a scope is like buying an accessery (memory card, light gun, etc.). but mod'ing the system would be like mod'ing your gun to fire at full auto which is illegal. your changing how the item functions.
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Ben, 21 Dec 2005 @ 7:17am

Re: Another analogy
Mod'ing the hardware is illegal too. not just pirating the software. its not like a car, its a console. different laws apply.
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Mark Shanson, 21 Dec 2005 @ 7:52am

Just take a look at my Harddrive.
If the DMCA wants to have a peek in my hard-drive, they sure as hell can be my guest. Theres NO pirate copies, and there NEVER has been. I earn enough money to actually buy the games when I want. So I really dont need pirated games. (To me its just so much stress with the downloading, burning. Why not spend the 50-60 bucks and have it done for you LEGALLY???)

The bottom line is, my XboX (modified) is a perfect example of a LEGAL modded system. (In terms of software usage.) Now if M$ has a prob with me modifying their hardware... thats another thing. But either way, I'm NEVER not going to own an unmoddified XboX, the same for my new 360. Just havent found any good mods for it yet.
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mike, 21 Dec 2005 @ 8:08am

XDK use.
Running Xbox software that was compiled with the XDK does not necc. make it free software.

Also if you are running a softmod, thats one thing. But running a chipped xbox with anything other than the cromwell is likely illegal also.
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nunya bidness, 21 Dec 2005 @ 8:16am

Re: Modifying your hardware - xbox
Most people know that you can NOT modify a motor vehicle any way you want, and sell it, even if you just race it on a track, it must meet certain inspections to be race legal, and even tighter laws govern street use. Houses are even more tightly controlled regarding modification, and must meet certain criteria prior to sale. Personal use of the aforementioned items is hard to control and ill consequences due to modifications usually sort them self out. That is a weak argument, are you even old enough to drive?
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Mark Shanson, 21 Dec 2005 @ 8:30am

No Subject Given
I'm 23. So I've been driving for a while. I have a grandmother who lives overseas. She knows I'm a game freak and she likes to buy the "new" games that come out every once in a while for me. And as we all know, PAL wont run on an NTSC console. So therefore it is modded. At first, thats the only thing which was modded. Then I saw another modded Xbox with Home Media Center and a bigger hard-drive. So I thought, great, now I can get a Media Center for my home theatre.

Thats how my modded xbox came to pass.

If M$ had made the XboX region free in the first place, I'd probably never had modded the damn thing.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2005 @ 8:30am

Re: The point bein
Its illegal because the EULA of the XBOX says you can't mod it FOR ANY REASON. Your not supposed to even open the Xbox, thats why they hide the screws. Game consoles aren't like computers because you Aren't aloud to mod them. its not like a PC, game consoles have different laws than PCs. the only place your aloud to mod a system is Australia, and thats only the PS2.

------

My X-Box was given to me by the previous owner. I've never seen, read, signed, or clicked any sort of EULA. Do I get infected by the EULA by being in the same room as an X-Box?
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nunya bidness, 21 Dec 2005 @ 8:58am

Re: No Subject Given
My reply was not to you, your comments make perfect sense, it was to that kid Mike who said I can do anything to a car or a house, or something stupid like that.
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Ben, 21 Dec 2005 @ 9:09am

Re: The point bein
You are subject to the EULA by owning the xbox. sorry dude, i don't write, or even agree with EULAs. I'm just saying where M$ is coming from. I hate EULAs but that doesn't mean that i don't have to follow them. granted I'm not going to delete music off of my computer if i go bankrupt so i guess i'd be breaking the law according to sony.

EULAs are the downside to owning a console/software. but if you want to use them thats part of the price you pay.
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Jon, 21 Dec 2005 @ 9:15am

Re: It's not the mod...
True its not the mod but how is it illegal to sell something modded? Take a Hot Rod for instance. Some people mod their car themselves, others prefer to pay someone else to do it but just because a car has a large engine that is capable of doing 140mph does that make owning the car or purchasing one illegal. Saying a xbox is specifically modded to play pirated games may be true but your correct in that it was the inclusion of pirated games that was against the law. As far as I'm aware there is no law making posession of a modded xbox illegal, only posession of pirated/copyright violating material.
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Mark Shanson, 21 Dec 2005 @ 9:22am

Re: No Subject Given
My bad.
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Mike (profile), 21 Dec 2005 @ 9:48am

Re: The point bein
Its illegal because the EULA of the XBOX says you can't mod it FOR ANY REASON.

Ah, no. First of all, if it was just a violation of the EULA, it would be a *civil* suit between Microsoft and the modder. However, this is a federal crime. That means it's not about the EULA... which has questionable legal validity anyway.

Your not supposed to even open the Xbox, thats why they hide the screws. Game consoles aren't like computers because you Aren't aloud to mod them. its not like a PC, game consoles have different laws than PCs.

Again, no one has explained "why" it's different other than that the companies that sell the devices keep telling you it is. Why do you accept that?
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Chris J, 21 Dec 2005 @ 10:18am

Seriously...
There will always be a group who breaks the boundries, bends the rules, and the vast majority will never get caught. Modding the Xbox for your own personal use isn't a bad thing. It is convenient to store all your games on a bigger Hard Drive; no fumbling with CDs. It is convenient to have an entire Multimedia Suite all in one spot. It was just plain stupid of those people to SELL pirated games. That is really the only issue here. How many of us go 5-10 mph over the speed limit? That is obviously Illegal. There are clearly stated road signs every few 10ths of a mile reminding you that what you're doing is illegal. How many people have actually read the EULA on their Xbox?; How many people actually sit down and read ANY fine print? Sucks that they got caught, but they got what they deserved for being stupid.:. Modding your Xbox: $25, New 120GB Hard Drive: $85, The look on an amateur modder's face when he's arrested and convicted for a Federal Crime: Priceless
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Landon, 21 Dec 2005 @ 10:40am

Re: The point bein
I think your on drugs. No, just because the EULA says you cant do it, does not make it illegal. If this were true then every single company would be puting some crazy stuff in their UA's and trying to make them the law.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2005 @ 10:42am

Re: The point bein
You are subject to the EULA by owning the xbox. sorry dude, i don't write, or even agree with EULAs. I'm just saying where M$ is coming from.

---

Dude, no I'm not. I am in no way bound by some quasi-legal contract between two other people. My accepting a gift from a friend in no way binds me to arbitrary conditions Microsoft imposed on the buyer.

If I use it for copying copyrighted stuff, I'm in the wrong, because that's a crime. But it has nothing to do with the EULA.
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Mike Mixer, 21 Dec 2005 @ 11:22am

Re: there IS a crime here!
Your example of the cable boxes is flawed in that they are all originally owned by the provider and to have one without paying them for it is theft to begin with. Secondly, getting a larger number of channels than you paid for is also theft. Just modifying anything that you buy
for your own use should be completely legal,as long as the mods are to be used for legal purposes. Where these yahoos get owned is that they obviously intended for an illegal act to take place,always a one way ticket to jail. The danger of this incident is that it will encourage
lawmakers to curb historically sacrosanct rights
of an individual to do what he wants with what he owns. It all started with land use laws and is slowly creeping it's way into consumer purchases.
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DittoBox, 21 Dec 2005 @ 11:44am

Re: No Problem
That would me one badbad club if someone attatched a large handle...
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DittoBox, 21 Dec 2005 @ 11:46am

Re: Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware
With software you own a license to use it, with hardware you generally aren't agreeing to any licenses, you buy the product, the plastic etc., not the "use" of the software.

No one can really "own" software, it's just an idea. It's not really a tangible "thing" like an xbox, a shot gun, or a hammer.
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FireMonkey, 21 Dec 2005 @ 11:59am

Re: The point being
Just because something has an EULA does not necessarily make it a legally binding contract. You simply can't enforce an unlawful contract, no matter who agreed to it or signed it.
People try silly agreements all the time. My favorite example involves the liability waivers I had to sign the first time I went skydiving. Some of the highlights:
1) You're jumping out of an airplane, so there's a chance that you will die or get hurt.
2) If you die or get hurt, you cannot sue us.
3) If you die or get hurt, your estate or your survivor(s) cannot sue us.
4) If you DO sue us and win, you have to give all of your proceeds to us.
I happened to be there with my girlfriend (who is a lawyer), and we both had a good chuckle while we signed our names about 200 times. NONE of it was legally enforceable, but they still wouldn't let us jump without fillig it out.
It's the same with the XBox EULA; it's not necessarily enforceable, but you still have to take some sort of measure that passively states that you agree to the terms (like break the seal on the box).
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Landon, 21 Dec 2005 @ 3:58pm

Re: The point being
How can you agree to a EULA when you could not even read it. And once you open the box to actually read the EULA you can no longer take it back. I dont remember seeing a EULA on the box, or anything on the seal that said "If you break this seal, you agree to the EULA." Just imagine going into Best Buy and trying to return an X-box because you did not want to agree to the EULA. Also, even if they did let you return the X-Box because you didnt want to agree, would they still charge you the 20% opened item fee?
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Fuck you, 9 Jan 2006 @ 8:47pm

Re: No Subject Given
IF I BUY IT, IT'S MINE and I cand do whatever the FUCK I WANT WITH IT. Enough with the monopolistic mofos!

SUCK ME MICROSOFT!!!!
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ME AGAIN, 9 Jan 2006 @ 9:06pm

up yours cruel corporate fucking world
A while ago, I bought a game from Sony. My kids ruined the game by scratching it. I called Sony and requested another game (which was more than 30 days old at that time) and they told me to buy another one. Question: IS a DVD woth 60$????? - NO. Is game worth 60$????- NO much more.. Then why am I paying those 60$ for? - The RIGHT to do whatever the fuck I want with it. I told that to SONY, and I also said that I'll send them 3 bucks to cover their new DVD and the case + SH, because I've already paid once for the right to use the software. Micro$hit replaces free of charge any CD with software if one can prove that was legaly bought form them. You draw the conclusions!
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Justin, 19 Mar 2006 @ 1:44pm

Think of a race car
I can buy a brand new Mustang, put a supercharger on it, dual exhaust, nitrous, new wheels, tires, and a body kit. Sell it for twice what I paid for, thats not illegal. But the gas i drove off with twenty minutes earlier thats still in the tank...... thats illegal.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Apr 2006 @ 6:51am

Re: The point bein
Its no different than if you cracked open the case to a Dell computer, you would invalidate your waranty, /

Actually, Dell doesnt care if you change your hardware - but it wont be covered under warranty. End users are actually expected to open their PC and troubleshoot if there are any issues.

Please - Think before you speak!
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nathan, 21 May 2007 @ 9:43pm

what about burning services
if the reason they were being sued is because of the preloaded games, then tell me what the difference is between buying every game for almost every console from burning services and recieving them in the mail on dvd's and selling an xbox with the same stuff just instead of on dvd's is on a hard drive (which most of the burning services i have seen will charge you 25 bucks to put whatever you want on your hard if you send it in. the only difference is your using that hard drive in your xbox. same (delete whatever roms you dont legaly own within 24 hours)rule still applies.
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Ryan, 7 Dec 2007 @ 1:33am

Here's what i think
The Reality is that there are rules put out that explain copyright infringement.

But here is what i feel on the matter.
Yes it is wrong to make a profit for software that you didnt create.

I do agree with everyone when others agree that if you bought it you should be able to with as you please.

I still own a Xbox and feel i would like the benefit of modding it.
there are many Reasons why people would wanna do it. i think it would be cool to upgrade it.
Advanced computer users buy cheap CPUs so that they can overclock them and make it faster and its ok in fact motherboard manufactuers make it easier for users to do it.

yea they say its a risk and people have to accept that risk.

so why cant they say the same thing.
to overclock a CPU it takes a jumper on the board to be moved or change settings in a bios. to mod a Xbox you have to solder a chip/board and change certain things so wouldnt it be safe to say that there is a larger risk there.

but when it comes to games why can't microsoft make more money by offering games made by them to be sold to those Xbox users with a modded Xbox that can download by them to their hard drive. To avoid infringment I know for a fact that certain websites can get any/all information bout your hardware so i know microsoft can make it where they would check the system before allowing downloads and make mod chips specifically for those to download software from them including software to amp the xbox. This can also make more money for them because there are alot of people that cant even afford a next gen XBOX 360 so this would give gamers the ability to afford the upgrade to give them the feeling of something close to a nxt gen system this would also give help to law enforcement to know where the illegal infringement is coming from.

But yes i will say again i know that people would like to get an easy deal especially that there alot of stores that dont even sell origanal XBox games anymore. give the game to the gamers and allow people to feel free with the property they own.

and that is why i think
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Jeff, 4 Mar 2009 @ 12:10am

moddifed xbox
its not hte modd that matters here or the coppying of the games its about the copyrights on the games they did it becasue the three men sold the modd and the burned games and the law says you can not resell or repreduse copys they dont say anything about making backups for yourselfs so therefore it about the copy rights that they have about selling them
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Please Explain Why Modifying Your Own Hardware Is A Federal Crime?

from the just-wondering dept

Reader Comments

No Subject Given

No Problem

It's not so much the mod chip...

Re: No Problem

It's not the mod...

No Subject Given

Re: No Problem

Re: No Problem